Quebec Speration - Good or Bad?

[Nic8]

I am an anglophone living in Quebec, in a mostly english community and went to an english high school (up to a month ago), so my influences have naturally been anti-seperation. Although, I do sympathize with the french people. So, this leads me to the question, what are your thoughts on the seperation of Quebec?

[j]

I grew up near the NH-Quebec border. I'm not sure what should happen though. It seems that the only reason for separation is to create an independent French-Speaking state. I don't really know too much about it. It was killed in a vote a few years ago, no?

Anyway, what do the francophones/separtists want?

j

[Borincano]

If the Quebecan people want their independence and especially if independence would benefit them better than they are in now, then Quebec should be a soverign nation. Though, I don't know too much about Quebec separatism, only Puerto Rico's, lol. :)

[Socialmalfunction]

sorry im kinda lost on the whole thing, but would seperating really be a bad thing? would it hurt anyone? i dont know much about the situation out there which is why im asking.

[Nic8]

The separtists feel that as a soveirgn nation, they could better secure the existance of their culture. They feel that their culture is unique and disapeering, that they are being anglasized and americanized. I think that I would agree.

The Partie Québec (separtists) are in power now and have been on and off for the last twenty years and for about the last five or six years (I think). They tried to seperate by refferendum but lost by about 50.5% to 49.5% about five years ago. Although, the referendum was accused, and probably was, rigged in favour of the seperation side. So it was not really that close. The PQ have put in a bunch of "nationalist" (that tends to be the angalaphone word for them) laws, such as limits to how much english can be on a sign. Signs must be predomanently french, 66% of any sign must be french ("bill 101"). A bunch of small bussinesses in predomanently english areas have got in trouble for this, example a sign that said "Push" on the inside of a door in a town that was 90% english. These businesses get fined. The PQ have also made it illegal for parents to send their children to enlish school unless one of the parents went to an english school in Canada (I don't know the exact law, but is something to that effect). This has effectevly slowed down immigration. My high school was about 95% white, about five minutes across the border in Ontario, the percentage is much lower, due to immigration.

The PQ have also put in some really proggressive laws as well. A few months ago they put in really cheap day care for everyone. We have one of the most, if not the most, pro-union labour codes in the country and the highest minimum wage in the country (if you count the "trainging" wage in British Columbia). I am not sure of all the laws in the labour code as I work in Ontario. I think small family farms get protection to.

Because of these laws, the PQ has my vote.

The problem, according to the federalists, with seperation is the economy. When ever the PQ get re-elected and threaten/have a referendum, property values plumet (the only reason I can afford to live in the neighbourhood that I live in). The economy has been permantly damaged do to the constant threat of seperation and some of the "nationalist" laws of the PQ. One only has to look at the cost of living of Hull compared to Ottawa. It is almost impossible to get a house/appartment in Ottawa, let alone an affordable one. It is very easy to find an affordable appartment/house on the Quebec side. Many non-sepertists point out the Czeck Republic/Slovakia case. When the Slovaks split from the Czecks about ten years ago, they were doomed to ten year of poverty that they are only now pulling out of. The thing is, this is not totally relevent to Quebec as Slovakia's economy was always very similar to almost all the other Eastern Europe countries converting to a capitalist economy.

Many non-separtists also claim that english rights will go down the drain even further then they already are. I am english, but I do not feel that the Quebec government is oppressing me because of it. They use bill 101 (the sign law) as proof. "Look what they due to us now, imagine what they would due if they did not have to listen to the charter of rights and freedoms!"

Most students at English schools complain about the better condition of french schools. That is simply not true. The schools receive money based on the amount of students, the french schools have more students and thus have more money. The english CEGAP (sort of like a college that you go to between high school and University) is brand new and beutifull.

By the way, and off topic, CEGAPs are free and allow people to either get a diploma in a certain field (example mechanics, bussiness administration etc.) or take a pre-university cource to let people decide if they can handle a university enviroment and whant they want to take at uneversity before they spend money on university.

Another argument against seperation, this one more logical then the others, is that with globalisation, the Quebec culture will get wiped out anyway. Third world nations with sovergnty are being americanized. Quebec would have to stop all imports from english businesses. The only country they could trade with would be France. Already, all the video games that kids play are mostly english, the internet is mostly english, etc. Books in french are much more expensive as they have to be translated and the market for them is smaller. The same is true for many other products.

My concern about seperation would be ties between english and french workers. They are present right now, but I am not sure if this would isolate the french workers from the english workers. French seperation had been accused of being a bourgeois conspiracy in typical devide and conquer style.

If I have made mistakes in my information let me know.

Aren't there small serartists groups in some of the western provences? Anybody know anything about that?

[Nic8]

That smiley face was supposed to be a bracket.

[Borincano]

Very interesting. Thanks for the information Nic8.

[Borincano]

Oh, and is Celine Dion a nationalist?

I know that during the Quebec version of the grammies like a decade ago, when she released her first English-language album, she was given the award for best English-speaking artist. She turned it down on stage, claiming she isn't an English-speaking artist, but a French one with an album in English. There was a huge conspiracy on why the award was given to her...mostly nationalist ferver, angry at her speaking in English.

[Maaja]

At least I do support the separation of Quebec if the people really want that. In this case it's natural!

[Edelweiss]

It's a common illness of the Left to support every separation attempt throughout the world. "Retaining culture" can't be an excuse for nationalism. Nationalism is always reactionary. A fine example for how fatal seperation can be is the former Yugoslavia, a nation which peacefully unified so many different people within a socialist state. That is a progressive way, our goal can't be the self-control within an own nation for every ethnic group of the world, I think our goal has to be the peacefull unification of the people.

[ID2002]

BAD...seperation would be very BAD. Since the US is my neighbour I know all too well what would happen with Quebec and the rest of Canada.

[Borincano]

ID2002,

Could you explain a little more?

[timbaly]

ID2002 what are you talking about? What does seperattion have do with what the US doeswith qubec or the rest of canada?

[ID2002]

If we were to think about it, if seperation were to occur...I believe the US would try and take advantage of the situation. Maybe I'm way out there...but I don't trust the US.

[maoist3]

If Quebec does separate it will be an imperialist
country, so it should not do so for reasons of class struggle. It should also negotiate with the First Nations
which deserve their own territory too.

[IzmSchism]

I just got back from working up in northern Quebec, (le Bel sur Quevillon). Everyone spoke better english than I spoke french. Evryone was super cool, any conversations I had concerning poitics were concerned over the new emerging party in Quebec, whom I was told are very similar to the alliance, just another party to split the vote for those dam liberals.

[Nickademus]

ok. i'm from ontario and therefore am pure anglophone (don't hold it against me) although i do speak and write in french and work and live in a bilingual environment. (the nation's capital). anyway i am against quebec separating. first of all quebec is part of the country and part of our diversity. there are many parts of french culture and language that quebec has been able to maintain, even more so than the aboriginal peoples of this country who have been here long. separating would cause problems. there are pockets of anglophones and pockets of people (namely the first antions and the inuit) who speak neither language. what should be done with them. if quebec separates then montreal should have the right to separate because it is anglophone almost entirely.

anyway i'll write more when i have more time.

megwetch

[Borincano]

Quote: from maoist3 on 5:30 am on Aug. 5, 2002
If Quebec does separate it will be an imperialist
country

Why do you think that?

[Nickademus]

oh btw to who ever called them quebeckers, they really don't like that....its quebecois....morefrench that way :D

[Nic8]

"if quebec separates then montreal should have the right to separate because it is anglophone almost entirely."

I thought Motreal was 2/3 french. I think it would half to be majority francaphone as it is the second largest french speaking city in the world (after Paris).

[KomradeKyle]

I many situations I'm pro separatist, if there are legitimate reasons for separation, and it generally doesn't harm anyone. Quebec separatists in my general opinion tend to be a tad whiny. If you look at what they've been given by the Canadian government, and all the anti-english laws that have been passed in Quebec, and the demands of the Parti-Quebecois (eg. Continuing to use canadian currency, recieving benefits from the rest of canada, and not having to contribute to paying off the national debt.) you may see that the demands are weak. Which would explain the declining support for the separatist movement. In my opinion, there are plenty of groups in Canada that deserve more recognition in the media then the parti-quebecois, like the first nations groups (who need some serious honest compensation from the federal government.). It's not that I'm anti-french, I just don't think the groups have any legitimate reason to separate from Canada.

[Eh Guevara]

Its a bad idea for them to seperate at least for the rest of Canada think of what would happen to the maritimes. chances are there would be tarifs on shipping through Quebec and they are already poorest provinces in Canada price would go up for fish which would be another major problem for the already struggling fish industry they would probably be forced to join the states to survive. It would be a major blow for national unity for the rest of Canada.
On the other hand economically it would be beneficial to Quebec because as one of the more populated and rich provinces they wouldnt have to support weaker provinces
with programs like the shared cost program.They could charge tarifs on shipping through.Do to many changes in legislature French culture is as strong as ever in Canada so that shouldnt be an excuse at least in my opinion. But I think most Quebecois see themselves as Canadians and do not want to seperate (at least the ones in my family).

[prozak]

Quote: from Malte on 7:56 pm on Aug. 2, 2002
It's a common illness of the Left to support every separation attempt throughout the world. "Retaining culture" can't be an excuse for nationalism. Nationalism is always reactionary. A fine example for how fatal seperation can be is the former Yugoslavia, a nation which peacefully unified so many different people within a socialist state. That is a progressive way, our goal can't be the self-control within an own nation for every ethnic group of the world, I think our goal has to be the peacefull unification of the people.



This "peaceful unification" obviously did NOT work in Yugoslavia, which was why change came about. Maybe ask someone from Yugoslavia before posting?

Also, it seems to me that assimilation plays into the hands of the global capitalist power elite. How do you feel about that?

[Edelweiss]

Quote: from prozak on 6:30 pm on Aug. 12, 2002

Quote: from Malte on 7:56 pm on Aug. 2, 2002
It's a common illness of the Left to support every separation attempt throughout the world. "Retaining culture" can't be an excuse for nationalism. Nationalism is always reactionary. A fine example for how fatal seperation can be is the former Yugoslavia, a nation which peacefully unified so many different people within a socialist state. That is a progressive way, our goal can't be the self-control within an own nation for every ethnic group of the world, I think our goal has to be the peacefull unification of the people.



This "peaceful unification" obviously did NOT work in Yugoslavia, which was why change came about. Maybe ask someone from Yugoslavia before posting?

Also, it seems to me that assimilation plays into the hands of the global capitalist power elite. How do you feel about that?

The multi-ethnic state of Yugoslavia worked for a long time very well. You can't deny that. When the cold war was ended and foreign powers had interest to smash the state of Yugulavia, they speaded the ethnic bacillus, and the wars broke out.
And we already had several people from former Yugolavia here who supported the multi-ethnic Yugoslavia.

[Felicia]

I don't know, I think that if Quebec separates than we'll (eastern canada) get sucked down the toilet :( . There's a bit of a separatist movement going on in Nova Scotia, it's a bit hard for me to come to a conclusion on the political stance, but I'm quite sure it's communist :)

[Commie Canuck 15]

Screw Quebec! There always complaining if they had their own nation they'd come crying in six monthes to come back into Canada.

[Felicia]

Quote: from maoist3 on 7:30 am on Aug. 5, 2002
If Quebec does separate it will be an imperialist
country, so it should not do so for reasons of class struggle. It should also negotiate with the First Nations
which deserve their own territory too.


First nations already have a territory to call their own, Nunivut, granted they are Inuit. Native land claims negotiations are going on all over Canada, in BC a large some of land was granted some time ago to the natives there.

In all reality if Quebec separated to preserve their french culture they'd really be killing it. As things stand now they are apart of a country that supports their french culture, if they were to separate they would be a little french country in a sea of english culture that they would probably end up drowning in :(

[I Will Deny You]

I really don't see why Quebec deserves its own sovereign government. The culture in many nations where very few people speak any English is disappearing and becoming Americanized. Do they deserve their own television station? Maybe. Do their parliamentary representatives deserve different appetizers at government functions, i.e. frog legs instead of cheez-whiz on triscuits? If they're willing to pay for it. But they don't deserve their own separate nation.

Black people in America have a very distinct culture despite the fact that their country has far more English-speakers than Canada. And they're not even the country's largest minority! I'm not going to deny that Americanization is killing certain cultures, but separatism is not the solution.

Lindsay

[Borincano]

Quote: from I Will Deny You on 5:56 pm on Aug. 19, 2002
Do their parliamentary representatives deserve different appetizers at government functions, i.e. frog legs instead of cheez-whiz on triscuits?

LMAO!

[Felicia]

Agreed, separating is not the answer, goodness, if people could only learn to compromise. But you do have to take into consideration that Quebec was forced into signing on and becoming apart of Canada.

[Camarade du Che]

Some of you should know Quebec history before making an opinion on the Quebec situation.

I personnaly think that it would be a shame if Quebec never seperates from Canada.

And they are not a whiny people, they are often considered as a soft people that accepts everything.

[Camarade du Che]

j : "Anyway, what do the francophones/separtists want?"
Mostly, it’s respect and being considered equal to other canadians. Example : in sports, like for the Olympic Games, they prefer taking english-Canadians than french-Canadians. If it happens in sports, there’s a good chance it happens at work or everywhere in the society. We do not like that.

Borincano : "Oh, and is Celine Dion a nationalist?"
No, she once said (almost crying) : "Please don’t touch my country". Rich people are most of the time federalists.

maoist3 : "If Quebec does separate it will be an imperialist country, so it should not do so for reasons of class struggle. It should also negotiate with the First Nations which deserve their own territory too."
We are not imperialists never was and never will be. First Nations have their own territory and Quebec is probably the canadian province who best treats them.

Nickademus : "if quebec separates then montreal should have the right to separate because it is anglophone almost entirely."
Montreal is not almost entirely anglophone but it’s one of the more open cities in the world and there is a lot of cultures living there. These cultures do not adapt to Quebec and they are slowly killing our culture by keeping their language or learning english : that’s the reason of the law of parents having to send their children to a french school.

Commie Canuck 15 : "Screw Quebec! There always complaining if they had their own nation they'd come crying in six monthes to come back into Canada."
That’s because of persons like him that we want to seperate. And it’s not necessarily seperate, but more having our own country because we feel that we are able to govern ourselves.

I Will Deny You : "I really don't see why Quebec deserves its own sovereign government."
We deserve it because that was ours. When we were under the control of France, Canada was only speaking french. Then, the Great Britain came, attacked us and won the lands that we were sharing with the First Nations. Under a military presence, we became their slaves. We gained some rights during the American revolution because they didn’t want us to ally the USA. A lot changed during our quiet revolution in the 1960s. That’s a summary of our history and remember that Canada should be speaking french.

"The culture in many nations where very few people speak any English is disappearing and becoming Americanized."
And, it’s a bad thing.

"Do they deserve their own television station? Maybe."
Speaking of that, the Canada owns two television stations : SRC(french) and CBC(english). CBC has a bigger budget and people working there have better work conditions than the SRC.

"Do their parliamentary representatives deserve different appetizers at government functions, i.e. frog legs instead of cheez-whiz on triscuits? If they're willing to pay for it. But they don't deserve their own separate nation."
I don’t get your joke unless it’s a joke about us being frogs.

"Black people in America have a very distinct culture despite the fact that their country has far more English-speakers than Canada. And they're not even the country's largest minority! I'm not going to deny that Americanization is killing certain cultures, but separatism is not the solution."
Our culture is not the only reason we want to seperate. Black Americans were brought from other countries, they didn’t live in the USA before the Americans.

[maxfish17]

I've never had a strong opinion on this issue. The arguments of both sides seem pretty flimsy. Does anyone here have a strong Reason why Quebec should or shouldn't seperate?

- Max,
Toronto ON

[Nickademus]

all right here we go....

why quebec does not have the LEGAL right to separate (and I stand by this btw)

in international lay, namely under the UN charter, people have the right to self-determination. there are two types of self-determination, internal and external. external (namely becoming your own state) can only be achieved if internal self-determination has failed. Namely, before you become your own state you have to try to work within your current state to become as sovereign as possible while keeping harmony. internal self-determination has not failed in the case of Quebec. Quebec has been given a lot, the right to determine their own immigration laws, laws that forbid english only signs etc. in fact, quebec has jurisdiction over many aspects of life that are normally under federal jurisdiction.

canada is doing its part to help quebec retain its culture. and quite frankly, the 'danger' if you should chose to call it, of a large city like montreal or toronto is that you will get immigrants and life there will become multicultural. that is not unique to montreal alone.

anyway, quebec should only be able to separate if canada is an oppressor to the point where quebec is a slave. it is not. if the aboriginal peoples of canada can achieve some aspect of self-determination, quebec too can. hell quebec is much better off than the aboriginal peoples of canada. they don't have to registered to be accepted as quebecois.

[sickdiscobiscuit]

Um, I thought that... nationalism (i.e. Quebec seperating) is bad with communism? I thought it was suppose to be a world wide workers union, not a federation of communist states... that's just my opinion

[Camarade du Che]

Nickademus:"anyway, quebec should only be able to separate if canada is an oppressor to the point where quebec is a slave. it is not."
It's not, but it was.
I just checked the definition of a slave in a dictionnary, it is: "a person who works very hard for someone else". Before 1960s, french-Canadians were slaves for english-Canadians: we were the workers, they were the bosses.
When Les Patriotes decided to disagree with that(in 1893, I think), do you know what the Canada did? They hanged them.
Then, in the 1960s, we began our quiet revolution. It led to two referendums about the seperation. So the seperation is wanted because Canada was an oppressor.

"Quebec has been given a lot, the right to determine their own immigration laws, laws that forbid english only signs etc. in fact, quebec has jurisdiction over many aspects of life that are normally under federal jurisdiction."
Nothing has been given to us, we had to fight for everything.

"and quite frankly, the 'danger' if you should chose to call it, of a large city like montreal or toronto is that you will get immigrants and life there will become multicultural. that is not unique to montreal alone."
I didn't call it "danger". I'm really proud of what Montreal is. But, I'm seeing my culture dying little by little and it saddens me. I was just explaining the reason of a law. I really like other cultures, but I think they should make more efforts to adapt to Québec.

[Camarade du Che]

Ok I just want to clarify something. Right now, Quebec doesn't really want the seperation. We accepted the results of the last referendum. The Party Québécois, whose program is the seperation, will probably lose the next elections.

And maxfish17, the reasons I would like us to seperate from Canada someday are: our history (I think about all my ancestors that have been screwed a lot by Canada and the ones that fought for their freedom and I think we should continue what they began), economy (we are probably the province who receives the least from what they give to the Canada), we are a people and we feel that Canada doesn't represent us and we're able to govern ourselves, the preservation of our culture and other reasons that I can't think of now.
But you know what, if Canada was giving us an apology and compensations for what they did to us and if they started respecting us (no more racism), I would gladly forget about the seperation, but that will never happen.

[Nickademus]

Quote: from Camarade du Che on 2:40 pm on Aug. 22, 2002
Nickademus:"anyway, quebec should only be able to separate if canada is an oppressor to the point where quebec is a slave. it is not."
It's not, but it was.
I just checked the definition of a slave in a dictionnary, it is: "a person who works very hard for someone else". Before 1960s, french-Canadians were slaves for english-Canadians: we were the workers, they were the bosses.
When Les Patriotes decided to disagree with that(in 1893, I think), do you know what the Canada did? They hanged them.
Then, in the 1960s, we began our quiet revolution. It led to two referendums about the seperation. So the seperation is wanted because Canada was an oppressor.

"Quebec has been given a lot, the right to determine their own immigration laws, laws that forbid english only signs etc. in fact, quebec has jurisdiction over many aspects of life that are normally under federal jurisdiction."
Nothing has been given to us, we had to fight for everything.

"and quite frankly, the 'danger' if you should chose to call it, of a large city like montreal or toronto is that you will get immigrants and life there will become multicultural. that is not unique to montreal alone."
I didn't call it "danger". I'm really proud of what Montreal is. But, I'm seeing my culture dying little by little and it saddens me. I was just explaining the reason of a law. I really like other cultures, but I think they should make more efforts to adapt to Québec.


under no circumstance is québec a slave to the rest of Canada. every province must provide the whole, that's how a federation works. so in that sense, every province is a slave to the whole, pei, nfld, bc, alberta. québec is not unique in that regard. hell even ontario is a slave to canada in a sense. but again, that's just how a federation works.

and because québec has fought for rights and won is proof enought that canada (not the canada) is willing to work WITH québec to some extent.

and the past doesn't mean that it is still so in the present.

ok québec has a history. so do the scottish canadians, and the japanese canadians, and the aboriginals. should they all separate?

and with regards to Montréal. Québec can set its own rules regarding how people should adapt....its part of the immigration controls Québec has...and don't argue that with me, i know what i'm talking about.

solidarité mon frere

[Camarade du Che]

Nickademus:"under no circumstance is québec a slave to the rest of Canada."
Of course Québec is not a slave to the rest of Canada. What I said is french-Canadians WERE slaves to Canada before the 1960s.

"and because québec has fought for rights and won is proof enought that canada (not the canada) is willing to work WITH québec to some extent."
I can agree that Canada is willing to work with us to SOME extent, but I don't think that these rights were given by Canada. Sorry if I made a mistake with (the) Canada, I guess that means I'm not totally assimilated by english :)

"and the past doesn't mean that it is still so in the present."
Presently, there is still racism against french-Canadians.

"ok québec has a history. *so do the scottish canadians, and the japanese canadians, and the aboriginals. *should they all separate?"
I don't know about their situation. If they have been beaten in a war and a military presence controlled them for years and if they want to seperate because they feel that they are able to govern themselves so they could make choices FOR them, why not?

"and with regards to Montréal. *Québec can set its own rules regarding how people should adapt....its part of the immigration controls Québec has...and don't argue that with me, i know what i'm talking about."
I never said that Québec can't set the immigration rules, I was explaining the reasons of a law.
What I meant in my quotation in your last post is that if I was moving to another country, I think I would learn the language spoken there and I would adapt to their culture: I think that would be the way to show respect for them and their culture.

[Nickademus]

ok admittedly there is racism against québecois in Canada....but there is also racism against other peoples in Canada....and there is homophobia....does that mean the gays and the lesbians should be able to separate from Canada......NO. * become a separate state won't end people's reacist views. *There will still be people in Québec who dislike francophones. *

and what do you mena you don't think these rights were given by canada? *i'm sorry i just don't junderstand what you are trying to say there. *

and québecois can make their own choices.....its called government. *québecois elect their membres and have their voice heard, just like the rest of canada. *They CAN and DO make their own choices, and quite frankly are a lot better off than a lot of the provices who are also extremely unique. *

and many people find english is easier to learn and it is more of a UNIVERSAL language, not just a canadian language. *sorry but that's just the way it is. *in almost any country you are better off knowing english then french. *c'est désolé mais c'est la vie. *it is a smart thing to want to learn english over french regardless of where you live. *you can become more mobile knowing french. *again it sucks but that's the way it is. *and hey just FYI i live in ottawa et mes amis qui ne parle pas francais ont des grands problemes avec trouver travaille. so hey there is just as much french culture etc. in other parts of canada. *quebec is not forgot and quebec is not so alone and unique that it should be a country in an of itself. *perhaps canada would have been better off were it a melting pot like the USA.

[Fires of History]

I'm no expert on this subject, but I have some thoughts and questions.

What are we to make of the Liberals victory in Quebec? The 2000 elections seemed to leave question marks for most Canadians. For the first time since the 1980's, the Liberals took the majority vote in Quebec leaving the Bloc with very disappointing results. Even I asked if separation was dead. How do people in Quebec interpret the elections? What do people in Quebec *really* think? This too could lead to a discussion of the Quebec Referendum.

Also, I heard that Quebec receives more federal money than any other province per capita. Is that true?

[Camarade du Che]

Nickademus:"ok admittedly there is racism against québecois in Canada....but there is also racism against other peoples in Canada....and there is homophobia....does that mean the gays and the lesbians should be able to separate from Canada......NO."
Racism is not the only reason we want to seperate. I wrote all the reasons in another post.

"and what do you mena you don't think these rights were given by canada? *i'm sorry i just don't junderstand what you are trying to say there."
I didn't like the way "give" sounds. It sounds like as it was a gift from Canada. We took back the rights that they should have been giving us from the beginning.

"and québecois can make their own choices.....its called government. *québecois elect their membres and have their voice heard, just like the rest of canada."
We pay half of our taxes and income taxes to Canada and we don't chose where that money goes.

"and many people find english is easier to learn and it is more of a UNIVERSAL language, not just a canadian language. *sorry but that's just the way it is. *in almost any country you are better off knowing english then french."
That's true, but I'm not asking for an immigrant to speak a perfect french, I'm asking him to make an effort to adapt to our culture. He could be the worst french speaker or writer, if he makes an effort I'll be more than happy.

"and hey just FYI i live in ottawa et mes amis qui ne parle pas francais ont des grands problemes avec trouver travaille. so hey there is just as much french culture etc. in other parts of canada."
Ottawa is near Québec. I don't think there is a french culture in Vancouver.

[Camarade du Che]

Fires of History: "What are we to make of the Liberals victory in Quebec? The 2000 elections seemed to leave question marks for most Canadians. For the first time since the 1980's, the Liberals took the majority vote in Quebec leaving the Bloc with very disappointing results. Even I asked if separation was dead. How do people in Quebec interpret the elections? What do people in Quebec *really* think?"

After the last referendum, politics became really quiet in Québec. We accepted the results with resignation.
I'm 99% sure that the Bloc won't win the next elections. Even I won't vote for them and I don't think that it's the time for another referendum.
Seperation is almost dead, but I think that maybe in 10-15 years it could surface.

As for what people in Quebec think, they want changes but they don't want the seperation. It could be dangerous because a new Party(ADQ) is gaining a lot of support from the population. This Party is on the far right: they want to low the income taxes of the rich persons and make a health system at two speeds.

"Also, I heard that Quebec receives more federal money than any other province per capita. Is that true?"
You probably heard that Québec receives LESS federal money than any other province per capita.


(Edited by Camarade du Che at 9:25 pm on Aug. 23, 2002)

[Nickademus]

one does not give up one's culture simply because they move to another state (unless of course they move to the USA). It's just a fact of life......

and there are pockets of french culture throughout canada....when i was in canmore alberta more people spoke french there than english. moncton? gee there seems to be french all over canada.....funny that

[Camarade du Che]

Nickademus:"one does not give up one's culture simply because they move to another state (unless of course they move to the USA). It's just a fact of life......"
I'm not asking them to give up their culture, but to make a little effort to adapt to where they want to live. I usually speak french, but I learnt english and took some spanish lessons: am I giving up on my culture? I don't think I am.

"and there are pockets of french culture throughout canada....when i was in canmore alberta more people spoke french there than english. moncton? gee there seems to be french all over canada.....funny that"
It's normal that there are a few places in Canada where french is still present: Canada was a french country before the Great Britain attacked it. It's like if you were saying to a Mexican that spanish is still present(I don't know if it is) in Los Angeles: if it is still present, it's because they were there before.

[timbaly]

over 45% of the people in Los Angeles are from hispanic descent and i'd say most of them speak spanish. When i was in Qubec City i heard a few people considering it Quebec to be new France. I even asked a man "What do you call a person from quebec?" he said a frenchmen. i thought that was weird but i never thought much of it. I also noticed that in Ontario everything is in french and english but i Quebec, especially nothern Quebec almost everything is written in French and French only. I was wondering if it's like that in Manitoba or BC. Plus i've heard that some parents teach there kids that Quebec is not part of Canada. It seems to be a very diffrent mind set in Quebec. Why are you saying that when people move to the US they loose there culture? I don't see that at all especially in New York people from third world countries still do things the third world way. My grandama's neighbor throw garbage out the windows as if she expects pigs and goats to eat it. Some people refuse to learn english, in fact alot of people. On some streets all you hear is Spanish or korean. Icould go on and on about this but it's off topic so i'll save it for another time

[timbaly]

This reminds me of something i heard that some communities on the US-Quebec border want there kids to be taught in french. I beleive most of the communities are in Vermont and a few in New Hampshire and Maine. They think they're entitled to this because some latin american immigrants in New York City have there kids taught in spanish IN the PUBLIC school system not private but PUBLIC

[Borincano]

Quote: from timbaly on 8:09 pm on Aug. 23, 2002
Why are you saying that when people move to the US they loose there culture?

Actually, by the third and fourth generation, you see their ancestors original culture disappearing and mixing with "American culture." The only reason why communities on the border with México, like L.A still retain a high amount of Mexican culture is because there's a constent influx of fresh immigrants everyday. Still, many of the recent generation have mixed with Mexican culture with mainstream USA pop culture and "ghettoness."

[andresG]

Very true Borincano.
And I know what you mean by "ghettoness".
It disgusts me.

[Nickademus]

if you want to get techinical this land was actually aboriginal land in the first place and yet their culture has died. So if quebec separates, then there would be absolutely no reason (based on your argument) for quebec to not allow aboriginal communities in quebec to separate. then you've got quebec with a bunch of aboriginal holes in it.

and like i said, french is a very difficult language to learn, in many cases much more difficult than english. and what other aspects of french culture do you want them to adopt? eating poutine? (sorry that was out of line)


anyway, i think you are just not realizing that the world is global now, and if you want to keep your culture you have to do it within your community. becoming a separate state is not the answer.

[timbaly]

I most say I absolutley despise poutine. It's some really sick shit. I can't agree with you more Boricano that "ghettoness" bullshit really gets on my nerve, so many mexican immigrants have undergone through a "Gangstanization" process.

[andresG]

Not just Mexican imigrants.
Immigrants from everywhere come here and just assimilate right away into American culture.

[Camarade du Che]

Nickademus: "if you want to get techinical this land was actually aboriginal land in the first place and yet their culture has died. So if quebec separates, then there would be absolutely no reason (based on your argument) for quebec to not allow aboriginal communities in quebec to separate."
If these aboriginal communities wanted to govern themselves, I wouldn't see any problem in Québec allowing it.

"and what other aspects of french culture do you want them to adopt? eating poutine? (sorry that was out of line)"
I don't necessarily want them to adopt aspects of french culture but more integrating themselves and bringing something to the french culture. By the way, poutine rules.

"anyway, i think you are just not realizing that the world is global now, and if you want to keep your culture you have to do it within your community. becoming a separate state is not the answer."
Becoming a seperate state may not be the answer, but it wouldn't hurt the preservation of the culture. And the culture is not the only reason for the seperation. Sorry I don't see what the globalisation of the world has to do with the sovereignty of Québec.

[Nickademus]

I'm sorry but quebec would have a very difficult time with the aboriginal communities separating.....do you know how much land you would really lose if they chose to do so?

how the hell are people supposed to bring something to french culture? i realy don't understand what the hell you want from immigrants. one minute you want them to adapt to french culture then you don't. what do you want?

and finally the point i was making about globalization is that you can't stop other cultures from coming together and sometimes clashing. And there are many anglophones in quebec whose culture would become lost if quebec were to become its own state. a lot would be lost if they separate from canada.

look don't get me wrong, i don't dislike quebec or francophones etc. i have many a friend from quebec. i simply think that quebec should remain a part of canada (and for someone who doesn't believe in nationalism/patriotism this is weird for me to say). quebec is very progressive in many ways (ie. their human rights code) and i appreciate it. i simply think that quebec and canada must work together to reach a happy medium. it will take a long time but it will work.

[Camarade du Che]

Nickademus: "I'm sorry but quebec would have a very difficult time with the aboriginal communities separating.....do you know how much land you would really lose if they chose to do so?"
I don't think that these communities would ask for a very large territory.

"how the hell are people supposed to bring something to french culture? i realy don't understand what the hell you want from immigrants. one minute you want them to adapt to french culture then you don't. what do you want?"
I want them to integrate themselves and I want them to make at least a little effort to adapt to our culture. I think that each culture can bring something to the society.

"And there are many anglophones in quebec whose culture would become lost if quebec were to become its own state. a lot would be lost if they separate from canada."
You can't be sure of that. I think that anglophones would be respected by the government.


"look don't get me wrong, i don't dislike quebec or francophones etc. i have many a friend from quebec. i simply think that quebec should remain a part of canada (and for someone who doesn't believe in nationalism/patriotism this is weird for me to say). quebec is very progressive in many ways (ie. their human rights code) and i appreciate it. i simply think that quebec and canada must work together to reach a happy medium. it will take a long time but it will work."

Anyway, we're having that discussion for nothing because seperation won't happen soon. Honestly, I hope that Canada and Québec work well together in the future, but I have some doubts. You know, I think that last year, I only had one discussion about the seperation so I'm not obssesed with it and I don't really want it NOW.
But, each time I see a Nadine Roland not being a part of the canadian swimming team because she's french(it's a fact she went in court about it and won), each time I see the canadian Junior Hockey team that has 0 coach and one or two players from Québec(and I see these one or two players being the best in the tournament), each time something injust is done to us, I think to myself:"we are able to govern ourselves".

(Edited by Camarade du Che at 10:50 pm on Aug. 26, 2002)