Dogma

[marxist_chica1288]

This is the ultimate stoner movie ever, and it laughs at the Catholic church. It's about the last Scion, the 13th apostle named Rufus (left out of the Bible because he's black), two prophets (Jay and Silent Bob), and a couple of muses trying to stop two renegade angels from entering a church and destroying human history. It's pretty fucking awesome.

[FeArANDLoAtHiNg]

I don't think its as good of a stoner flick as some of Smith's others. It's still pretty funny though. Actually it's a pro-religious movie, although anti-catholic at the same time. Smith's gone down the drain lately anyway...

[guerillablack]

I enjoyed it. Some was you know, kinda stretching it. But overall cool movie.

[Anarchist Freedom]

Great movie but clerks was better.

[dev/null]

I’ve never been able to be entertained by a Kevin Smith film for the simple fact that he puts Jay and Silent Bob in every one of them. Those are, by far, two of the most annoying and idiotic characters ever created in opinion. If it were not for them, Clerks and Dogma would have at least been humorous enough at times to watch once. I’m biased though, as I dislike most so-called comedy films, as they’re all intended for the general brain-dead population. There’s no tact in the humor, and no strategy in the deliverance. When I laugh, it’s usually at black comedies, or in the very least, morbid things that aren’t supposed to be funny :P

[guerillablack]

White comedies like that Zoolander fellow usually be funny. Isn't funny how white humor and black humor is completly different? I tried to watch this white comedian's special on hbo and i prolly laughed like 2 times.

[FeArANDLoAtHiNg]

When I laugh, it’s usually at black comedies

I'm confused, did you mean black as in of African descent, or black as in dark?


I’ve never been able to be entertained by a Kevin Smith film for the simple fact that he puts Jay and Silent Bob in every one of them. Those are, by far, two of the most annoying and idiotic characters ever created in opinion. If it were not for them, Clerks and Dogma would have at least been humorous enough at times to watch once.

I think Jay and Bob are pretty funny, but I can see how they'd be annoying to some people. However, their part in Clerks is so small that I wouldn't think it would be too much of a drain even if you dislike them. Also, I think their scenes in Clerks are pretty funny. Also, they play a fairly small role in Mallrats. Mallrats is my favorite Smith film.

[canikickit]

"Black comedy" is a phrase for comedy which is dark, it's got nothing to do with race.

[guerillablack]

Originally posted by [email protected] 20 2005, 03:55 PM
"Black comedy" is a phrase for comedy which is dark, it's got nothing to do with race.
Really? Black comedy is also used for african-american comedy movies.

[canikickit]

That's a stupid way of talking about African-American films. It's been used for longer as a phrase for dark humour.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_comedy

[alex d kid]

As a big fan of Kevin Smith I would say that Clerks is his greatest work. Dogma is a good movie though. Can't wait to see Passion Of The Clerks. Smith is making this movie as promise to Jason Mewes because he got off the junk.

[YKTMX]

I think Dogma is better than Clerks. Much wittier and more original I thought.

[Taiga]

Brilliant movie!
I enjoyed it a lot.

[codyvo]

Funny movie, tainted by all the kids who don't get the jokes and still say they love it, I get so angy when a kid says he likes the movie but doesn't even know what Dogma means.

Clerks was a lot better, and they are coming out with a sequel this year, but it doesn't look any good.

[SgtPepper369]

Kevin Smith appeals to a few crowds, but the most obnoxious are the stoners... who pretty much watch the movies for the dick and fart jokes. Sometimes Smith executes them well. I am among the Comic Book Geek crowd, making Mallrats my favorite. Dogma was a damn good movie and I think Rufus' monologue about "Good Ideas" is a really good idea.

[LSD]

Dogma has maybe 2 or 3 funny scenese, but you have to sit through ennnnnnndless Jesus, and God, and Lucifer, and "fate of Mankind" type bullshit to get there.

Sorry, but I haven't seen any other mainstream movie that was so blatantly Christian. I wonder if y'all noticed that the film itself is dedicated firstly to God.

It isn't a "horrible" film, but its just so damned propagandistic I can barely last through it.

[Invader Zim]

Dogma was better than Chasing Amy and on a par with Mallrats. Jay and Silent Bob Strike back wasn't that great.

Sorry, but I haven't seen any other mainstream movie that was so blatantly Christian.

Firstly Kevin Smiths are not mainstream, they are Cult movies and he is a famous indie director, who made the film Clerks for $27,000. It is also a movie on Miramax, which was first created to distribute independant films. It was bought out by Disney, but it is still mainly for indie films. Thus Dogma is not a main stream movie, not in any huge manner anyway.

Secondly, you have obviously never seen Stigmata, The Passion of the Christ, Ben-Hur, etc. Those are very much pro-god movies, though I have to admit that Stigmata was a great movie.

[LSD]

Firstly Kevin Smiths are not mainstream

Maybe not initially, but after Clerks and Mallrats, he certainly became pretty damn mainstream.

He started getting bigger budgets, bigger actors (Ben Afleck, Matt Damon, etc..) and prominent distributors.

It doesn't matter how Indie he was when he started, but like Michael Moore, he ain't no more!


It is also a movie on Miramax, which was first created to distribute independant films. It was bought out by Disney, but it is still mainly for indie films.

What... like "The Aviator"?

Miramax hasn't been "independent" for a while.


Thus Dogma is not a main stream movie, not in any huge manner anyway.

Wide national release, total gross $30,652,990, more than 20$ millions in profit...

I'd say its as mainstream as it gets.


Secondly, you have obviously never seen Stigmata

Never saw it actually.


The Passion of the Christ

Saw that one!


Ben-Hur

That one too...


Look, I'll acknowledge that I may have overspoken.

Clearly, there are some films with more religious overtones then Dogma, but my point remains that it is a very Christian film.

[Invader Zim]

Maybe not initially, but after Clerks and Mallrats, he certainly became pretty damn mainstream.

He started getting bigger budgets, bigger actors (Ben Afleck, Matt Damon, etc..) and prominent distributors.

Ben Affleck was in Mallrats, Ben Affleck has been doing Kevin Smith films long before he became famous. Insidentally Mallrats was Smiths second film, after Mallrats, Ben Affleck has been in every Kevin Smith film except Dogma. So the fact that he was in Dogma, is pretty meaningless. As for Matt Damon, considering the relationship between him and Affleck, it was just a matter of time before he appeared in a Kevin Smith film.

It doesn't matter how Indie he was when he started, but like Michael Moore, he ain't no more!


I don't think you understand what Indie means, it means that you're not one of the big 5 film distributers. Miramax isn't (or at least wasn't until it became part of the Disney group) thus its films are Indie. From what I read, it still retains the same staff and independance, with little control exerted from Disney.

Miramax hasn't been "independent" for a while.

Until it gets disolved it will always be indie, because it is not one of the big 5.

What... like "The Aviator"?

Yeah, and Clerks, Dogma, Chasing Amy, etc. As well as other cult classics, such as pulp fiction.

Wide national release, total gross $30,652,990, more than 20$ millions in profit...


Yes, thats quite a profiateble film, buts lets put it into perspective, Red Dragon (part of Thomas Harris's Hannibal Lecktor series) which grossed $208,600,000. Thats around 7 times more than Dogma, and is only 250 in the top grossing films of all time. Lets compair it to another Ben Affleck movie; Armageddon. Thats a little more at $554,600,000 which is around around 18 times higher than Dogma. So in the grand perspective of films Dogma didn't make a lot at all, in fact it made very little. Especially when you consider that the Titanic made $1,835,300,000.

Never saw it actually.

You should, Gabriel Byrne, Patricia Arquette and Jonathan Pryce. Great movie, IMDB gave it a poor score though.

Look, I'll acknowledge that I may have overspoken.

Thats alright.

Clearly, there are some films with more religious overtones then Dogma, but my point remains that it is a very Christian film.

Considering its a film about the impending end of the world created by a hole in Catholc Dogma, I think most people took that for granted.

[SgtPepper369]

Dammit people! It's a man creating something from existing mythology, this is not a retelling of events in the bible. I think it's good work and shouldn't be regarded as more "Pro-Christian" than Down to Earth. IT'S COMEDY!

[LSD]

I don't think you understand what Indie means, it means that you're not one of the big 5 film distributers. Miramax isn't (or at least wasn't until it became part of the Disney group) thus its films are Indie. From what I read, it still retains the same staff and independance, with little control exerted from Disney.

"The term indie is short for "independent" and refers to artistic creations outside the commercial mainstream, without the support of a major record label, major movie studio, or other source of a large budget."
(From Wikipedia)

"1) One, such as a studio or producer, that is unaffiliated with a larger or more commercial organization.
2) An artistic work produced by an independent company or group:"
(From Dictionary.com

This "big 5" definition is your own.

"Indie" is merely an abreviation of independent. Again, I would propose that neither Kevin Smith nor Mirimax could fairly be refered to as independent.


Until it gets disolved it will always be indie, because it is not one of the big 5.

Again, that is your own definition.

And a pretty bizzarre one at that. Why the big 5? Why not the sixth biggest as well? Why not the seventh?

"Big 5" or not (and as you acknowledge, technically, Mirimax is "big 5), Mirimax is still a large big budget mainstream film studio that produces large big budget mainstream films.


Yes, thats quite a profiateble film, buts lets put it into perspective, Red Dragon (part of Thomas Harris's Hannibal Lecktor series) which grossed $208,600,000. Thats around 7 times more than Dogma, and is only 250 in the top grossing films of all time. Lets compair it to another Ben Affleck movie; Armageddon. Thats a little more at $554,600,000 which is around around 18 times higher than Dogma. So in the grand perspective of films Dogma didn't make a lot at all, in fact it made very little. Especially when you consider that the Titanic made $1,835,300,000.

Yes, there are films that have made more money than Dogma.

Save Titanic, there are films that have made more money than every film.

The argument wasn't that Dogma was in the "top 250", merely that it was successful enough, cost enough, and made enough to be called mainstream.


Considering its a film about the impending end of the world created by a hole in Catholc Dogma, I think most people took that for granted.

Good, they should have.

So what? That doesn't defeat my point that it was a deeply Christian film, in fact it sort of reinforces it! :)

[Invader Zim]

This "big 5" definition is your own.

Yes, your absolutely right, its now the big six I forgot about Sony.

Its the 6 big movie studio corporations Warner, Universal, Viacam (Paramount), Disney, Fox and Sony.

Miramax are only a recent addition to the big 10 studios, because they were bought out by Disney.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Six_%28mo...corporations%29 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Six_%28movie_studio_corporations%29)

Its exactly the same with music, there are four big record labels if your band isn't on it, you are technically indie, because you are independent of the large dominating labels.

Why not the seventh?


Because no other corporations or studio's are nearly as big as the ones mentioned, if they exist then they are considered independent.

(and as you acknowledge, technically, Mirimax is "big 5),

Yes, it has been bought out by Disney. So technically it is affiliated by one of the large corporations. But then again so Warner Independent, and that’s famed for being an indie.

Also Pulp Fiction was on Miramax, and that was defiantly an indie film, it won the canns film festival.

Mirimax is still a large big budget mainstream film studio that produces large big budget mainstream films.

Well there you are, you see most of the films on Miramax are not big budget, quite the reverse especially when you consider their history. Take Dogma, that didn't exactly have a huge budget. Assuming your figures are accurate it only had a budget of $10,000,000, which is peanuts compared to most big films.

Yes, there are films that have made more money than Dogma.

Yes there are, their are hundreds and hundreds if not thousands.

The argument wasn't that Dogma was in the "top 250", merely that it was successful enough, cost enough, and made enough to be called mainstream.

But what defines main stream? You suggested it was money made, well like I said, Dogma made bugger all in respect to hundreds of other films. I would be very supposed if its even in the top 500 grossing films. Would you consider "Saw" mainstream, because that made millions? Napoleon Dynamite?

So what? That doesn't defeat my point that it was a deeply Christian film, in fact it sort of reinforces it!

But saying that’s a point against it is ridiculous, you must have known what it was about prior to seeing it, yet you watched it anyway. The same goes for The Passion of the Christ, no secret was made. If you don't want to see films with Christian messages, then make a point of not watching them. I don't particularly like horror movies so I tend to avoid them.

But my original point was in criticism of it simply based on that, as if it was a major surprise. It’s not like the “evil Christians” tricked you into watching and then forced to accept their message.

[LSD]

But saying that’s a point against it is ridiculous, you must have known what it was about prior to seeing it, yet you watched it anyway. The same goes for The Passion of the Christ, no secret was made. If you don't want to see films with Christian messages, then make a point of not watching them. I don't particularly like horror movies so I tend to avoid them.

I wasn't "surprised" that it was religiously based, but I was actually surprised that it was so, ultimately, pro-Christian.

I had expected a film that was more willing to actually challenge Christian theology,or at least be willing to make fun of it (it was a comedy after all). In all the important respects, this film shys away from any serious critisisms of God, Jesus, the afterlife, resurrection, divine intervention...


Yes, your absolutely right, its now the big six I forgot about Sony..

:D

My point was that Indie merely means that it was not produced by a big-budget studio, big 5 (or 6) notwithstanding.

Which leads us to:

Well there you are, you see most of the films on Miramax are not big budget, quite the reverse especially when you consider their history. Take Dogma, that didn't exactly have a huge budget. Assuming your figures are accurate it only had a budget of $10,000,000, which is peanuts compared to most big films.

Ah, so I guess the question is how much does it take?

After how many millions is it "mainstream"?

15?
20?

Personally I would say that 10,000,000 $ is sufficient.


But what defines main stream?

Well, that is the question isn't it!

I suppose that, ultimately, it's a fairly subjective term. It may be impossible to nail down specific definitions.

I guess we just disagree on this one...

[Invader Zim]

Personally I would say that 10,000,000 $ is sufficient.

Well I disagree, because individual actors alone can charge upto that much for a film.