Leaving the US [Archive]

Phalanx

14th February 2005, 00:34

Although i'd love to see this country go the good way, it is firmly planting itself more and more in the conservative side. With the possiblilty of abortion being banned and the FCC and religious right banning all 'un-moral' scenes of nudity and swearing, this country is turning into the western Saudi Arabia. Its not like i just realized it, i just decided to make a topic on it. I'm putting this in practice because i've got to find other countries that aren't such hopeless wrecks as 'merica. Any suggestions as to where to live? odd question

guerillablack

14th February 2005, 00:39

and unmoral scenes are needed because

Phalanx

14th February 2005, 00:55

No, i just don't want the religious right deciding what gets edited. If i want to see nudity or violence, that should be my choice, not some fucking bastard religious nut.

Ele'ill

14th February 2005, 01:00

So you are going to abandon the US huh? If you do this, those you oppose will have won. There is still a chance for change. By leaving you only declare a victory for the opposistion.

Phalanx

14th February 2005, 01:27

I don't want to burst your bubble, but it looks as though the US is turning over to the right. This is a popular change (with nascar dads voting for the one they can relate to). The only leftists who can make a fart of differance are the moderate-conservatives. And of course i don't want to give up the richest nation on earth, but it seems as this is a losing battle. The ignorant religious right are here to stay, so get praying or get the hell out. :D

redstar2000

14th February 2005, 01:30

If you want to see/participate in a proletarian revolution in your lifetime, I would recommend France or Germany.

But remember, you will have to learn great fluency in the language and customs...you must acculturate yourself thoroughly.

And don't do any public politics until your citizenship papers come through. :)

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/123.gif

UtopicImperium

14th February 2005, 01:48

Why germany and france? sorry, i dont know much about the situation there. redstar, could you explain?

guerillablack

14th February 2005, 02:01

Originally posted by Chinghis [email protected] 14 2005, 12:55 AM
No, i just don't want the religious right deciding what gets edited. If i want to see nudity or violence, that should be my choice, not some fucking bastard religious nut.
if you want to see nudity and violence you can go to the video store or movies. but as long as tv is watched by everyone including young kids, programs will continue to have to be edited to suit this reality.

FeArANDLoAtHiNg

14th February 2005, 02:06

Have you thought about moving to Canada? It's a start anyway, and conveniently close.

GlassDraggon

14th February 2005, 04:56

I would be very cautious about talking openly about wanting to move, it's a very controversial issue in the government right now.

I can't blame you though. This country is like one big Titanic and Bush is our captain. I also don't think it's right for anyone to judge you on whether or not you should move. We don't know your situation or the situation of your family and so forth. Many of the most influential revolutionaries STARTED their revolutions from outside their home country and who knows, maybe you will do the same.

There is NO point in sticking around if you are simply going to risk death or long term imprisionment for your ideas.

I don't think you are handing a victory to our opponents...I think you are protesting in the greatest way possible, by no longer supporting the country in ANY way shape or form. It's like walking out of an abusive and exploitative job when it'll hurt the CEO most.

FeArANDLoAtHiNg

14th February 2005, 10:07

if you want to see nudity and violence you can go to the video store or movies. but as long as tv is watched by everyone including young kids, programs will continue to have to be edited to suit this reality.

Yeah, because in the United States, we have something called VALUES. George W. Bush. Values. Values. Values. Values. Proud to be an American. Values. Vote Values. Vote the Bible Values. And Values.
--
:P

Intifada

14th February 2005, 11:16

So you are moving to Israel?

Nothing Human Is Alien

14th February 2005, 19:53

www.escapeartist.com

There's a site with info of lots of different countries by people who have already left the U$, for various reasons.

Spartacus2002

14th February 2005, 20:02

Come to Canada

LSD

14th February 2005, 20:57

if you want to see nudity and violence you can go to the video store or movies. but as long as tv is watched by everyone including young kids, programs will continue to have to be edited to suit this reality.

"protect the children"?

Sorry, but that's a bullshit argument and you know it.

TVs have an off switch just like everything else, if you don't want your children seeing a natural human form, you can turn it off and go .... read the Bible .... or Koran ... or whatever.

It isn't our job to raise your children in the way you want them to be raised.

If you are genuinely concerned with the material on television ... DON'T OWN ONE!!!

I would be very cautious about talking openly about wanting to move, it's a very controversial issue in the government right now.

Oh come one, I'm as concerned about the US government as anyone, but even I don't think they have a problem with people discussing leaving the country!

Terrorism? Yes.
Assassination? Yes.

But travel plans? Come on...

There is NO point in sticking around if you are simply going to risk death or long term imprisionment for your ideas.

Well you remember what Jerry Fallwell said when Canada legalized gay marriage...

:lol: :P

Phalanx

14th February 2005, 22:25

Originally posted by [email protected] 14 2005, 11:16 AM
So you are moving to Israel?
possibly, or Canada or France. I'd move to Israel because i'd like to help the peace process. And Tel-Aviv is a very left-leaning city with a strong leftist movement. I'd stay away from Jerusalem, because there are so many religious fanatics of all faiths. They can kill each other as far as i'm concerned.

redstar2000

15th February 2005, 01:24

Originally posted by [email protected] 13 2005, 08:48 PM
Why germany and france? sorry, i dont know much about the situation there. redstar, could you explain?
Hee, hee, I don't know that much about the present situation there either. :P

Malte has started a couple of threads on the left in Germany...but I've seen very little about the left in France on this or any board.

No, I'm betting strictly on the historical probabilities...particularly with regard to France. The French have shown a marked tendency to "lead the way" in past revolutionary periods...so I think the best bet is that they'll do it again.

The radical discontent in the former East Germany may be the "yeast" that causes the German working class to rise.

Other possibilities would be Italy and Spain...both with a long revolutionary tradition.

But let's be honest here. The range of possibilities in the United States are going to be just plain awful for many decades to come. If you just want to move to an English-speaking country where capitalism is somewhat less barbaric, Canada would be a decent choice but New Zealand is probably the best option. You won't see any revolutions, but the Homeland Security Gestapo won't be kicking your door in either.

That also applies to Israel, by the way. I wouldn't move there any more than I'd move to Baghdad...you'd just be asking to have your ass shot or blown up for no reason. Nothing good is going to happen in those places before 2100 at the earliest.

At least, that's how I see it.

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Phalanx

15th February 2005, 01:34

Originally posted by [email protected] 15 2005, 01:24 AM
That also applies to Israel, by the way. I wouldn't move there any more than I'd move to Baghdad...you'd just be asking to have your ass shot or blown up for no reason. Nothing good is going to happen in those places before 2100 at the earliest.

Israel is in reality a very safe country to be. If anyone looked at the statistics and the probabilty that they were to get killed there, they would be in Eilat sunbathing by now. Even if it were anywhere near the violence level of Iraq, you still must take risks in life to forward improvement in people's lives.

UtopicImperium

15th February 2005, 03:37

thanks redstar

yeah, i have been thinking in moving to italy. But Berlusconi, the prime minister, needs to get the hell out of office though...

redstar2000

15th February 2005, 04:22

Originally posted by UtopicImperium+Feb 14 2005, 10:37 PM--> (UtopicImperium @ Feb 14 2005, 10:37 PM) thanks redstar

yeah, i have been thinking in moving to italy. But Berlusconi, the prime minister, needs to get the hell out of office though... [/b]
I'd encourage you to do it anyway.

Berlusconi is indeed a crook (even The Economist exposed him) and has been described as "Mussolini without the charm".

But I don't think his coalition of rogues and thieves is likely to "hang together" much longer...sooner or later they will disagree over the division of the spoils, Berlusconi will get indicted again, and this time parliament won't pass a special law to get him off the hook.

In America, we would say "that guy just has jailbird written all over him". :lol:

Chinghis Khan
Israel is in reality a very safe country to be.

I doubt if it's very safe at all for Jews who are perceived to be "pro-Palestinian" by the right-wing. (Didn't they assassinate a prime minister for being "soft on Palestinians"?)

You have to think about what can you actually accomplish there. Sure, if you want to be a "moral witness" and possibly a martyr, Israel is not such a bad choice. Are you tired of life already?

My impression is Israeli Jews are deeply divided not over capitalism vs. communism, but over how much Israeli expansion is "ok"? How much domestic apartheid is "sufficient"?

And you're going to get up in front of those people and say "no expansion is acceptable and all apartheid laws in Israel should be repealed."???

Good luck to you if you want to try. But I don't think you have (pardon the expression) a prayer!

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guerillablack

15th February 2005, 04:48

Originally posted by Lysergic Acid [email protected] 14 2005, 08:57 PM

if you want to see nudity and violence you can go to the video store or movies. but as long as tv is watched by everyone including young kids, programs will continue to have to be edited to suit this reality.

"protect the children"?

Sorry, but that's a bullshit argument and you know it.

TVs have an off switch just like everything else, if you don't want your children seeing a natural human form, you can turn it off and go .... read the Bible .... or Koran ... or whatever.

It isn't our job to raise your children in the way you want them to be raised.

If you are genuinely concerned with the material on television ... DON'T OWN ONE!!!

I would be very cautious about talking openly about wanting to move, it's a very controversial issue in the government right now.

Oh come one, I'm as concerned about the US government as anyone, but even I don't think they have a problem with people discussing leaving the country!

Terrorism? Yes.
Assassination? Yes.

But travel plans? Come on...

There is NO point in sticking around if you are simply going to risk death or long term imprisionment for your ideas.

Well you remember what Jerry Fallwell said when Canada legalized gay marriage...

:lol: :P
if my arguments are bullshit what about yours?How can i turn off their tv switch if im not there?What about porn popups?Your solution to that is don't own a computer too?

FeArANDLoAtHiNg

15th February 2005, 05:37

Just don't let your kid get on the computer, or supervise them. If you, or another adult is not in the home, then the small child won't be there alone, will it?

Commie Rat

15th February 2005, 07:15

if Little Johnny Howard was not in bed with Bush i would say come ot Aussie land and help me and Ian start a movement

GlassDraggon

15th February 2005, 08:30

Originally posted by Lysergic Acid [email protected] 14 2005, 12:57 PM

if you want to see nudity and violence you can go to the video store or movies. but as long as tv is watched by everyone including young kids, programs will continue to have to be edited to suit this reality.

"protect the children"?

Sorry, but that's a bullshit argument and you know it.

TVs have an off switch just like everything else, if you don't want your children seeing a natural human form, you can turn it off and go .... read the Bible .... or Koran ... or whatever.

It isn't our job to raise your children in the way you want them to be raised.

If you are genuinely concerned with the material on television ... DON'T OWN ONE!!!

I would be very cautious about talking openly about wanting to move, it's a very controversial issue in the government right now.

Oh come one, I'm as concerned about the US government as anyone, but even I don't think they have a problem with people discussing leaving the country!

Terrorism? Yes.
Assassination? Yes.

But travel plans? Come on...

There is NO point in sticking around if you are simply going to risk death or long term imprisionment for your ideas.

Well you remember what Jerry Fallwell said when Canada legalized gay marriage...

:lol: :P
Point 2: Do you realize where this person is posting this? Also, there's a lot of controversy over the definition of "sedition" and during the McCarthy era thoughts of leaving the country on political grounds was one of the signs of being a "commie" and was punishable by pretty impressive prison sentences. But most importantly- if you couldn't sense the SARCASM in that statement, you're totally lost.

Point 3: You need to study your recent U.S. history. I suggest looking for "McCarthy" and "Rosenberg" but I'm sure there are hundreds of equally fascinating examples. There are also hundreds of other examples both nationally and internationally that I would be willing to suggest but those two names should be sufficient.

Anarchist Freedom

15th February 2005, 16:09

Have fun leave the US

as they said on south park

"If you dont like it you can just get out!"

LSD

15th February 2005, 16:46

if my arguments are bullshit what about yours?How can i turn off their tv switch if im not there?

Use a V-Chip.

Or lock up your TV

Or DON'T OWN ONE..

...or best of all, raise your children properly such that the word "fuck" or "cocksucker" or "****" won't drive them into a psychoneurotic shock.

What about porn popups?Your solution to that is don't own a computer too?

Well, god forbid your chidlren know about sex. After all it was sex that STARTED THE SECOND WORLD WAR!!!!!! AHHHHHHH!

But don't wory, there are plenty of software level applications to prevent your children from encountering porn on the intenet. They can easily be customized to provde exactly the level of prusishness you want.

It isn't the world's responsiblity to conform to your particular morality.

Point 3: You need to study your recent U.S. history. I suggest looking for "McCarthy" and "Rosenberg" but I'm sure there are hundreds of equally fascinating examples. There are also hundreds of other examples both nationally and internationally that I would be willing to suggest but those two names should be sufficient.

Hey, believe me, the US scares the shit out of me and I would NEVER live there.

But even you have to admit the US is not (read: not) what it was in the late 40s/early 50s. Y'all may be headin' in that there direction... but you're not there yet.

Phalanx

18th February 2005, 01:55

This country is headed towards disaster. Either a war with China or some rebellion caused by the left will bring it to its knees. And good riddance to it.

Ele'ill

18th February 2005, 02:02

What would happen if the leftists cannot control the population?

Phalanx

18th February 2005, 02:05

Well, unfortunately, i would see a slaughter of leftists because most of the guns in this country are controlled by neoCon gun nuts with mental issues. But if this happened, the neoCons would lose to the people, who I hope would be disgusted by an atrocity like that.

Ele'ill

18th February 2005, 02:08

Aside from the fighting between the two spectrums of politics; being the leftists and the neo-cons. How do you think the masses, being the non politically driven or middle spectrum peoples would react? Would they accept such a radical change? If they simply refused the leftist ideology, they would restart a democracy. What would the leftists do in response?

Phalanx

18th February 2005, 02:25

As the gap between rich and poor widens, the masses have 2 ways to go: left or right. They won't stay the same because it is not working for them. Unless they act like sheep and vote for someone who goes against benefit for them, and works for more money to the rich. Hmmmmm

guerillablack

18th February 2005, 03:39

Originally posted by [email protected] 15 2005, 05:37 AM
Just don't let your kid get on the computer, or supervise them. If you, or another adult is not in the home, then the small child won't be there alone, will it? Even the "best" parents in the world don't know exactly what their kids are doing 24/7.
When you was a kid, was there an adult behind you every second? Please come back to the real world. It would be nice if there was an adult watching every child's every move, but that's a fantasy.

cormacobear

18th February 2005, 04:27

Lock it up people have liquour cabinets in there houses.

Come to Canada. My pubesant years were made all the less traumatic by the possibility of seeing a boob if I stayed up late and watched the french channel. :P

pandora

18th February 2005, 05:56

The sad fact is many parents are working two jobs so not able to be home with their children at all these days. This is the governements fault for getting rid of afterschool programs and head start plus allowing the cost of rent and utilities to get ridiculous so that people have to work all the time and can not be home with their children.

The main reason not to leave the US, this is where it's going down now. But you have to be brave to live here and fight the struggle. Still it's good to get out and realize how insane and stupid everything is here, and how capitalistic, and that there is a better way to live based on people not things :D

LSD

19th February 2005, 10:23

Come to Canada. My pubesant years were made all the less traumatic by the possibility of seeing a boob if I stayed up late and watched the french channel.

Vive la Quebec! :lol:

It would be nice if there was an adult watching every child's every move,

No, it really wouldn't.

A little independence and freedom go a long way in developing a healthy personality.

Again, in todays world you cannot protect your children from the realities of life, but nor can you expect the rest of humanity to bend over backwards to accomodate your particular retronostalgic prudishness.

If you raise your children properly, seeing a breast or sex, or hearing "dirty words" (:unsure:) won't affect them.

Of course if you "shelter" them and hide the world from them, when they finally do encounter life (and they will, they always will), then they'll have a problem.

But in the end, no matter which way you choose to go, if you are absolutely determined to raise your kids free from reality ....DON'T OWN A TELEVISION SET!!!!

but that's a fantasy.

Yours apparently, certainly not mine.

encephalon

19th February 2005, 11:29

the US isn't going right; it's always been on the right, save the bourgeois revolution. It wavered a bit in the 30s to settle the masses, but it's really insignificant by comparison. America was born out of the desire for profit and acquisition of wealth at all costs, and america continues to be so.

People talk about the horrendous mingling of modern-day "politics" in america and big-business.. what most people fail to think about is the fact that the western colonization of the US was by a corporation, not another country.

Sabocat

19th February 2005, 14:06

I have been considering France myself. Here are some recent articles about some actions going on there at present. There are some promising signs by not only the workers, but the students as well.

France: high school students demonstrate against education “reforms”
By a WSWS reporting team
17 February 2005

One hundred thousand French high school students struck and demonstrated on February 10 to oppose the law on education reform introduced by François Fillon, education minister in the right-wing government of Prime Minister Jean-Pierre Raffarin. The number of students participating is even more significant given that nearly half the high schools in the country are currently closed for vacation.

The rest of the article (http://www.wsws.org/articles/2005/feb2005/fran-f17.shtml)

France: half-million-strong protest against government attacks
By our correspondents
9 February 2005

More than 500,000 people demonstrated on the streets of France against the ever-growing attacks of the government of Prime Minister Jean-Pierre Raffarin on Saturday, February 5. The government, backed by President Jacques Chirac, is pushing through legislation to extend working hours beyond the current 35-hour week, whilst allowing price rises that have grown with the introduction of the euro to eat away at workers’ standard of living.

The rest of the article (http://www.wsws.org/articles/2005/feb2005/fran-f09.shtml)

VukBZ2005

19th February 2005, 14:51

I do have to admit that i am considering of leaving this silly country as soon as
possible. It is just not possible for me to stay here when the specter of Bush
sending people to go to war for oil is hanging over everyone's heads. That and
a whole host of reasons is forcing me to consider this option. I would love to
go to France or Germany.

guerillablack

19th February 2005, 21:29

Originally posted by Lysergic Acid [email protected] 19 2005, 10:23 AM

Come to Canada. My pubesant years were made all the less traumatic by the possibility of seeing a boob if I stayed up late and watched the french channel.

Vive la Quebec! :lol:

It would be nice if there was an adult watching every child's every move,

No, it really wouldn't.

A little independence and freedom go a long way in developing a healthy personality.

Again, in todays world you cannot protect your children from the realities of life, but nor can you expect the rest of humanity to bend over backwards to accomodate your particular retronostalgic prudishness.

If you raise your children properly, seeing a breast or sex, or hearing "dirty words" (:unsure:) won't affect them.

Of course if you "shelter" them and hide the world from them, when they finally do encounter life (and they will, they always will), then they'll have a problem.

But in the end, no matter which way you choose to go, if you are absolutely determined to raise your kids free from reality ....DON'T OWN A TELEVISION SET!!!!

but that's a fantasy.

Yours apparently, certainly not mine.
Define properly. Who says sheltering "kids" and when they are let into the real world they will have a problem? You? :rolleyes:

For someone with alot of posts, you do talk alot of nonsense with nonfactual based arguments.

LSD

19th February 2005, 22:14

Define properly.

Pro-per-ly.

In a manner such that they are well-informed on the world, intelligent, curious, educated, skeptical, rational, and morally grounded.

If a child is raised with a proper foundation they should already know about sex, they should already know about what a human body looks like before they ever see their first television show, certainly before they're online!

Who says sheltering "kids" and when they are let into the real world they will have a problem? You?

Yes, me...

..and countless studies.

But I guess science don't carry as much weight with you as "Holy Texts".

For someone with alot of posts, you do talk alot of nonsense with nonfactual based arguments.

Amazingly, you've managed more nonsense with less posts.

Feel proud.

waltersm

19th February 2005, 22:28

don't leave, that would be giving up

Paradox

19th February 2005, 22:33

Even if it were anywhere near the violence level of Iraq, you still must take risks in life to forward improvement in people's lives.

Well, if one must take risks in life to improve society, then why leave the states? What actions have you taken that got you so worried? I'm not trying to be critical here, I'm just curious as to why you'd say we need to take risks, and then say that you want to leave. Is the u$ TOO risky a place? And why would you go to Israel? They torture Palestinian prisoners, and there's reports they even torture children. What makes you think they wouldn't do the same to you, if they found out you're a leftist and for Palestinian liberation? I'll be honest though, I've considered leaving this country as well. Thing is, the places I want to go are probably more risky than here! :lol: The places I've considered going to are Chiapas, Venezuela, Cuba, and, you'll love this... PALESTINE!!! :lol: And yes, I've also considered Canada (It's an obvious choice) which is considerably less dangerous than my other choices. ;)

The reason, the main reason I want to leave isn't so much a fear of persecution or the feds coming after me, it's cuz I'm sick and tired of being around so many gluttonous, wasteful people who are more conserned about getting laid and drunk than what's going on in the world. I want to be with the people. I want to live with them, work with them, struggle with them, fight not for them, but alongside them, and if necessary, die with them. Sorry if I got too dramatic, I'm just sick of all this materialistic crap, people worrying about what brand clothes they have on and how much their cars cost. I hate that crap. I gotta get away. Who knows, maybe I will leave. And if I do, maybe I'll see you in the jungles. :ph34r:

alex d kid

20th February 2005, 10:57

You could come to Norway and join me in the Scandinavic revolution. America is in deed the most fucked up nation in the world and I would have been ashamed if I was an American. I wouldn't have moved there if my life dependet on it. It's good to hear that you want to leave the country.

guerillablack

20th February 2005, 18:30

I would definately leave to, but i just can't fathom abandoning my mother and sister.

Guest

24th February 2005, 01:28

Originally posted by [email protected] 19 2005, 10:33 PM
Well, if one must take risks in life to improve society, then why leave the states? What actions have you taken that got you so worried? I'm not trying to be critical here, I'm just curious as to why you'd say we need to take risks, and then say that you want to leave.
Because U.S. society has only itself to blame. But many third world countries are victoms of imperialism and as a citizen of one of the main imperialistic countries, i must help them to repair the damage the U$ has done. As for risks, i don't think their is much risk in conspiring a red revolution in a dark room, and to obsess about some day, you just might inflame one, and as soon as you know it, you;re just another old person that died of a heart attack.