Hugo Chavez arming to fight attack by U.S.

[refuse_resist]

CARACAS - Venezuelan President Hugo Chávez has long been known for his harsh anti-Bush rhetoric. But now he's stepping up military plans and weapons purchases to match his combative tone, and he is worrying U.S. policymakers.

Within the past two weeks the leftist populist leader has called himself a ''socialist'' and ''Fidelista,'' and offered a muscular new course for his self-described ''revolution'' on behalf of Venezuela's poor.

''I propose that we move to the offensive, just like the imperialists have moved to the bloody and ruthless offensive. If you don't believe me, look at Iraq . . .'' Chávez told a news conference in Brazil late last month.

''We have to embrace socialism as a thesis,'' he continued, in what observers said was his most direct public reference to his socialist views. He later added that any attack on Cuba or Venezuela ``would be an attack on both.''

Chávez has called President Bush the devil and worse, and he regularly blames Washington for a 2002 coup attempt against him. Critics brand him a would-be dictator, but Chávez has won two democratic elections and fended off a recall referendum just last year.

Still, his latest comments worry U.S. policymakers, mostly because they coincide with his push to obtain new weaponry and forge a new national military doctrine that would prepare his country for a war of resistance against a possible U.S. invasion.

Simultaneously, Chávez has said he is placing the 50,000 soldiers of the military reserve directly under his control and organizing his civilian supporters into armed militias to be known as ``popular defense units.''

OIL A COMPLICATION

Although U.S. officials have dismissed the idea of a military attack on Venezuela, they have expressed concern over Chávez' new stance since Venezuela remains the fourth-largest supplier of oil to the United States.

Earlier this week, the State Department's assistant secretary for Western Hemisphere affairs, Roger Noriega, challenged Chávez's efforts to create the militias and his purchase of 40 Russian helicopters and 100,000 AK-47 assault rifles.

Noriega told a TV interviewer that the weapons could end up in ''the hands of some criminal and irregular groups'' -- an apparent reference to leftist guerrillas in neighboring Colombia with whom Chávez has been accused of sympathizing.

Vice President José Vicente Rangel responded swiftly to Noriega's comments, saying they had ''the deliberate goal of provoking Venezuela'' and that the new guns would replace old weaponry.

The heightened U.S.Venezuela tensions coincide with new strategies for bilateral relations in both countries.

After years of Washington's trying to avoid confrontations with Chávez, a new U.S. ''policy review'' is expected soon to recommend trying to isolate Venezuela from its neighbors.

''We've tried to establish common ground with the Venezuelan government,'' Noriega said in the television interview. ``But, unfortunately, President Chávez has sabotaged our efforts.''

For his part, Chávez has been trying to extricate Venezuela from the U.S. economic sphere of influence by forging ties with countries such as China and Argentina and hinting that he may sell Venezuela's U.S. gasoline and refining business, Citgo.

But it is Venezuela's attempt to procure arms and create militias that has made the U.S. government jumpy.

''Even if these are to replace the older weapons, where are these older models going to go?'' wondered one State Department official, speaking on condition of anonymity. ``They're old. It doesn't mean they're useless.''

Other deals include the purchase of the 40 helicopters and the possible purchase of 50 Russian-made MiG 29 fighter jets. Media reports from Washington say the United States has petitioned Russia to rethink the sales.

While some officials worry that the AK-47s could end up in Colombian rebels' hands, others believe the weapons acquisition is a reasonable part of Chávez's shift in military doctrine.

As described by Gen. Melvin López, head of the National Defense Council (Venezuela's equivalent to the National Security Council), the new doctrine would focus on an ''asymmetric war'' -- a conflict between a superior and an inferior fighting force, like those in Afghanistan and Iraq.

Under the new doctrine, the only way to fend off a superior enemy is by using guerrilla tactics -- hence Chávez's efforts to create militia groups and bulk up reserve units.

In recent statements, López said asymmetrical war would involve ``the participation of the whole population; adapting ourselves to the geopolitical [situation] of the country.''

Chávez recently said the new popular defense units would comprise 10 to 500 members each and would fall outside the normal military hierarchy and directly under the president's command, in effect creating Chávez's own, private revolutionary army. They are to be organized ``in the barrio, in the factory.''

If the ''imperialists'' intervene in Venezuela, Chávez added, ``they will face the people . . . ready to defend their sovereignty, their country and their dignity.''

OTHERS' TECHNIQUES

Venezuela's new strategy comes from the same roots as 'the prolonged popular war of Mao Zedong, Ho Chi Minh and Vo Nguyen Giap in Asia, and `the war of all the people' in Cuba,' '' said one of the Chávez government's ideologues, Mexico-based academic Heinz Dieterich.

Cuba has long projected the ''war of all the people'' not only as the strategy it would use to wear down and eventually defeat a possible U.S. invasion but as the kind of aggressive posture that might even deter a U.S. attack.

That is not far from the vision of Gen. Alberto Müeller, a studied military tactician as well as a former senator and Chávez campaign aide. Müeller is expected to be named to the special government commission that will put the country's new military doctrine in writing.

In an interview with The Herald, Müeller said the new doctrine of ''decentralized defense'' was to signal the United States not to attack.

http://www.indybay.org/news/2005/02/1721021.php

[bolshevik butcher]

Good, chavez is taking sensible steps.

[In Search of True Thinkers]

With Chavez being highly popular amongst Venezuela's people it will be interesting to see what tactics Washington will use to make him an 'immediate threat' to US survival (AKA business interests). Also Chavez has only spoke of the defense of his nation which is perfectly logical considering the threat from Washington, but I can already see the American PR figurieng ways to take his statements out of context.

[FeArANDLoAtHiNg]

I wish Chavez the best of luck, and hope Cuba will prove to be a strong ally. What are the chances of revolution spreading to neighboring Colombia?

[pandora]

Indigenous groups have been being targeted by the Columbian government and US forces in the war against Leftist guerilla forces in Columbia. With 16 units of Green Beret having been dropped in there of course Chavez would beef up for security

Libertad Latina http://www.libertadlatina.org/LA_Indigenous_At_High_Risk.htm

[Sabocat]

I think what Chavez is doing is great, but man, the CIA is now I'm sure getting ready to take him out. They tried election subversion and it failed twice at least. I'm sure their next move will be assassination.

Hopefully he'll fair better than Allende.

[Des]

didnt castro warn the us just the over day about their attempts on assassination on chavez..

but surely if the CIA to dispose of him.. it will only create more a stir with the Venezuelan people?

they are for chavez afterall

[Scottish_Militant]

It's a good move, the people of Venezuela must be able to defend themselves and their movement, the arming of the people is a revolutionary act and places even more control at the hands of the workers and peasants. Good to see that everything seems to be moving in the right direction, at long last.

[Ell Carino]

I don't blame him for stepping up his defense... everyone has a right to defend from oppressors.

[Anarchist Freedom]

I find chavez's actions to be wise and also a death sentance. The Pentagon will interperet this the wrong way and sway public opinion to believe there an immediate threat to "american freedom"

[Scottish_Militant]

A post I made on another discussion forum.

Socialists and the Venezuelan revolution.

The socialist movement, and the working class are international, our aims are international, to refuse to give an honest opinion of an international event involving our brothers and sisters struggle because it is taking place in another country is a mistake.

To simply write articles of course is not enough, as I mentioned in another thread it is important to actively intervene with our ideas and with a clear programme for the victory of the working class in Venezuela, which is in effect, a victory for the working class worldwide.

Advice cannot be seen as “telling others what to do”, advice can be ignored, and if we were to limit ourselves to simply writing a few articles to give our advice then it is extremely unlikely that it will be taken on board, or even read by a majority of workers and peasants struggling in Venezuela.

The Hands Off Venezuela campaign has produced a vast amount of articles, pamphlets and various material, we have held meetings and demonstrations all over the world, with tens of thousands of supporters fighting to defend the revolution against the lies of US imperialism, we have consistently put forward the need for the revolution to be completed, and for full economic and social power to be taken by the masses.

This active intervention has earned thousands of supporters in Venezuela, including many leading trade unionists and President Chavez himself. Should we then choose to withdraw our analysis, simply to sing the praises of the revolution whilst it remains in great danger?

This point is put forward in a recent HOV article, which says..
“The best friends of the Venezuelan Revolution – in fact its only real friends is the working class of the world and its most conscious representatives – are the revolutionary Marxists. They are the people who will move heaven and earth to defend the Venezuelan Revolution against its enemies. At the same time, the true friends of the Revolution – honest and loyal friends – will always speak their mind without fear. Where we consider that the right road is being taken, we will praise. Where we think mistakes are being made, we will give friendly but firm criticism. What other kind of behaviour should be expected of real revolutionaries and internationalists?”

Alan Woods, who has visited Venezuela on a number of occasions wrote..
"In speech after speech in Venezuela – including several televised interviews – I was asked my opinion about the Venezuelan Revolution, and answered in the following sense: ‘Your Revolution is an inspiration to the workers of the whole world: you have accomplished miracles; the driving force of the Revolution, however, is the working class and the masses, and that is the secret of its future success. However, the Revolution has not been finished and will not be finished unless and until you destroy the economic power of the bankers and capitalists. In order to do this, the masses must be armed and organised in action committees, organised at all levels. The workers must have their own independent organizations and we must build the Marxist Revolutionary Tendency'."

And of course, on the subject of the headline of this thread, it is a positive move and a revolutionary act to see the arming of the people and the formation of people’s militias to protect every town and village in the country. It is very unlikely that we will witness a direct invasion, especially by the US army who are so tied up in “other business”, however, to hope that ‘nothing will happen’, and to put off or avoid preparing for conflict would be suicide.

Imperialism will stop at nothing to crush every single gain of the revolution in Venezuela, but we, as workers and activists, will stop at nothing to defend it, and to fight for it’s final victory, a defeat here can set our movement back 20-30 years on a world scale, but a victory on the other hand, will be the first step towards the struggle for world socialism and the liberation of our class.

What would you rather see?

[CommieDuK]

good luck for chavez!! im sure that usa want him dead!! and i hope 1 day all south america countries will have a president like chavez or castro!

[Maksym]

Originally posted by Anarchist [email protected] 13 2005, 06:35 PM
I find chavez's actions to be wise and also a death sentance. The Pentagon will interperet this the wrong way and sway public opinion to believe there an immediate threat to "american freedom"
It does not really matter what actions Chavez takes when dealing with America's, public opinions. Americans will believe whatever the television spews out. If the war hawks in the pentagon fail to discover any credible evidence to start a war against Venezuela, then they will lie. Venezuela should do whatever it deems necessary to deter an American invasion.

[bolshevik butcher]

In an out right conflict, thevenuzealans couldn't actually win, however tehy ould bog down the americans, foght a gureilla war, and certainly destroy their morale.

[Roses in the Hospital]

It's good to see Cuba has a firm ally. Though if their was any straight military conflict between Cuba/Venezuala and the US I know who my money would be on...

[RedAnarchist]

It's about time that the dark shadow of American imperialistic foriegn policy was lifted from the rest of the world. And that removal will begin in Caracas! :D

[In Search of True Thinkers]

Lula & Chavez Meet in Caracas
Meanwhile Brazilian president Luiz Inacio da Silva and Venezuelan president Hugo Chavez are meeting today in Caracas in an effort to form greater ties between the two countries. Chavez is expected to propose further collaboration between the nations' two state-run oil companies . In addition Venezuela is seeking to buy jet fighters from a Brazilian jet-maker. - From Democracynow.org

Chavez was originally looking to purchase MiG's from Russia however this recent news hints that perhaps his request for Russian fighters was denied. It could also just be that he is trying to strenthing ties with potential Socialist nations in Latin America and is seeking every avenue for military armorments.

[Phalanx]

Originally posted by Clenched [email protected] 14 2005, 09:28 PM
In an out right conflict, thevenuzealans couldn't actually win, however tehy ould bog down the americans, foght a gureilla war, and certainly destroy their morale.
They could win if they put up no resistance at the beginning and devoted all resources to a guerrilla war. The US may be a formidable fighting force, but when they are in unfamiliar jungle territory and fighting a determined enemy they will crack. History only proves this.

[fernando]

If the US do decide to attack it will spawn many Vietnams on a global scale, Iraq isnt going that well, an invasion in Venezuela might also trigger rebellion/support from other Latin American nations...we will give the US not one, but three or even four Vietnams!!! PATRIA O MUERTE!

[Ele'ill]

I do not know how you can glorify the deaths of any soldier anywhere. They are the tools of politics. Another vietnam or many vietnams at the same time would not be fun. Mothers would grieve on both sides, sisters would be brotherless and wives with babies abandoned (and or killed in combat) To wish war reguarless of the symbolic resistance it may portray, would be to celebrate over the bodies of the dead. A war dosn't give you the right to stand on the sidelines and cheer for either side. Generally celebration of bloodshed is simply for the purpose of moral. Not the literal act of killing.

[bunk]

Venuezela is obviously aiming to take on the US conventionally as well as with guerrilla tactics seeming as they are buying 40 helicopters and 50 fighter jets.

[Wurkwurk]

I guess that Hugo is taking sensible steps - a solid military is NECESSARY in a socialist country under threat by imperialists (such as Cuba and North Vietnam facing America).

Chavez is a great leader, leading a country to greatness in the days ahead. He could very well be the next Fidel Castro!

[Ele'ill]

He could very well be the next Fidel Castro!

Yeah, fidel 'the guy that abandoned Che 2'
I don't understand how this is a good thing.

[fernando]

In what way did Fidel abandon Che? Are you one of those who beliefs Fidel had Che killed or something?

[Ele'ill]

No, i'm saying che would not be pleased with the current cuba.

[fernando]

Of course...but I dont think Castro would be too pleased with the current Cuba as well...I mean 50 years of assassination attempts, terrorist attacks, an rediculious economic embargo...

But then why put it like "Yeah, fidel &#39;the guy that abandoned Che 2" <_<



I do not know how you can glorify the deaths of any soldier anywhere. They are the tools of politics. Another vietnam or many vietnams at the same time would not be fun. Mothers would grieve on both sides, sisters would be brotherless and wives with babies abandoned (and or killed in combat) To wish war reguarless of the symbolic resistance it may portray, would be to celebrate over the bodies of the dead. A war dosn&#39;t give you the right to stand on the sidelines and cheer for either side. Generally celebration of bloodshed is simply for the purpose of moral. Not the literal act of killing.
True...but you would fight for your land, your freedom right? That is what happened in Vietnam, the Vietnameze fought against the imperialists who wanted to dominate their land, their lives...perhaps it is not so positive that these things cannot be resolved by talking, but perhaps that is part of human instinct...
Im not glorifying the random killing of peoeple, dont get me wrong, but if the Americans do decide to invade a country for their imperialistic needs the only way to get them out is to either beat them back before they can enter or kill enough of them so that the public morale will force them to retreat...we live in a very nasty world...

[Ele'ill]

the only way to get them out is to either beat them back before they can enter or kill enough of them so that the public morale will force them to retreat...we live in a very nasty world...

And the point of this forum is to discuss how we can change this world. By using the same tactics that we have declared unjust, we are in fact saying imperialist violence is ok as long as it&#39;s on the side of our own ideology.

[fernando]

Fighting is not an exclusive imperialist thing, and we didnt declare the tactics themselves unjust, we declare the reason why they are being used unjust, there is a difference in this.

I dont believe in pacifism, I know many people try to believe in that idea, but if we are under attack we have to fight back, not just surrender and wait for our enemies to fuck us over. And our current enemy is the United States...too bad they only get the message after a large enough number of their troops are dead :rolleyes:

[Phalanx]

Unfortunately, i do not think that peaceful protests will make the U&#036; end it imperialistc strategy. I hate to see bloodshed, but it is better to fight for indepedence than have the yolk of american oppression on your back.

[Ele'ill]

Fighting is not an exclusive imperialist thing, and we didnt declare the tactics themselves unjust, we declare the reason why they are being used unjust, there is a difference in this.

Ideological reasons for killing are justified. ?
The innocent deaths of hundreds of thousands is unjust. No war is just. Do you think the innocent are only killed by imperialists? I should hope not.

The tactics of war themselves are in fact not justified because those involved, or in power at the time assume they hold the majority of the support. This is not true.

[Urban Rubble]

I sympathize with the postition that Chavez is in. Some sort of military strength has to be present in Venezuela. I just hope he doesn&#39;t fall into the trap that the Soviets did and begin to focus more on building his military than on building Socialism.

[fernando]

Ideological reasons for killing are justified. ?
Where did I say that? An enemy attacks your country...what are you going to do? Spread your legs and hope you will talk him into leaving your country? No...you have to fight&#33;



The innocent deaths of hundreds of thousands is unjust. No war is just. Do you think the innocent are only killed by imperialists? I should hope not.
Again I did not say that, you are saying that killing innocents is "imperialist violence" :rolleyes:


The tactics of war themselves are in fact not justified because those involved, or in power at the time assume they hold the majority of the support. This is not true.
That kind of mentality would have kept most of the world directly under European control <_< Guess what...you have to fight for your freedom, you dont just get it handed to you like that


I sympathize with the postition that Chavez is in. Some sort of military strength has to be present in Venezuela. I just hope he doesn&#39;t fall into the trap that the Soviets did and begin to focus more on building his military than on building Socialism.

I fully agree with you there, this is a trap many &#39;socialists&#39; and &#39;communists&#39; fall into, instead of working on their own system they are focussed too much on the enemy (capitalism). I mean look at the USSR, the only thing that sort of kept it together was the military which was justified due to the "Evil Western Empire", later on when that enemy image got less and less money was spend on the military the USSR&#39;s collapse was complete.

[Latin America]

I am afraid the CIA may try to kill Chavez, or even worst a US invasion, it seems they been doing that for a while&#33; :angry:

[Mad Scottsman]

Let&#39;s not get silly. Chávez is appealing to his poliical base with a speech much like those given by many politicians. The U.S. will not invade his country and he knows it. But it&#39;s popular to pretend to get ready to fend off a U.S. invasion these days: N. Korea, Iran and Cuba all have leaders that occasionally rally &#39;round the flag with such talk.

[fernando]

Well...the US invaded Iraq...countries know that the US can attack them too, especially with this warlike government they have right now, preperations have to be made.

[Mad Scottsman]

The U.S. invaded a country run by an insane madman. What ever you may feel about the Bush Administration being "warlike" (in the U.S., we don&#39;t have "governments", so I think you mean the Administration and/or the 109th Congress) Bush is no Hussain. Even he and Mrs. Rice couldn&#39;t concocked a reason to invade Ven, and we&#39;re too busy as it is in Iraq. You will remember that at the time of the Iraqi invasion, there was about 65% support for it. And The 108th Congress paid for it. I don&#39;t think the 109th, even with its greater Republican majority would vote the money for an invasion. Also, remember the Administration had a "build up" to the invasion, with Mr. Powell addressing the U.N., and other events. If Mrs. Rice made the same presentation about Ven., she&#39;d be literally booed off the stage.

The U.S. would not try to invade Ven. anymore than it would Sweden. There&#39;s no reason, and it can&#39;t be compared with Iraq.

[fernando]

Venezuela mentioned it wasnt pro US...the US has a very powerful propaganda machine which could influence the public...they dont give a shit about the UN (just look at Iraq).

The US invaded Iraq because it was run by a bad dictator? Hmm...funny since in the past the US supported a whole bunch of mad dictators...oh wait they still do...

Venezuela is endangering US interests throughout Latin America, they might even become a second Cuba...hey US history Truman Doctrine...&#39;domino effect&#39; heard of that? It says that if one nations turns communist the nations in the region will do the same...so if Venezuela becomes more socialist and supporting Cuba, the other Latin American nations might do the same, hence very much endangering the US&#39; position on that part of the world which they consider to be their "backyard"

[Mad Scottsman]

The language you use in your argument: Truman Doctrine, backyard, domino effect is no longer used by modern state department specialists.

You know that if the U.S. DID invade Ven, the entire region would near declare war on the U.S. and would become more socialist as a result.

Are you believing the U.S. would invade as part of wishful thinking?

Anyway, what forces would invade? What regiments would we use? Again, you didn&#39;t answer my question of how Mrs. Rice and President Bush would "sell" the invasion to the American public, and the Congress who would have to vote the money.

I&#39;m not trying to be a jerk about this, I just can&#39;t see it happening. There&#39;s no "anti-Ven" buzz about the country. Probably 1/2 the country doesn&#39;t know or care about Venezuela. There is a lot of preparation that goes into an invasion. Comments re: Syria or Iran come to mind. Is any similar thing happening with regard to Ven.?

[Ele'ill]

In response to fernando&#39;s post about my post:
It seems a lot of people on this forum are excited about revolutionary change, and resistance to imperialism. The difference that I see, which is my opinion and nothing else, is that you do not realize resistance and revolutionary change is a burden the oppressed must carry on their shoulders. Most humans do not enjoy killing. Do you think that in a war torn region, such as the occupied territories, the peoples involved in resistance are happy? Are the Israeli&#39;s happy? So many grieving families. I guess my point was if there is a revolution, or a war in any country. Go into it with the mindset of &#39;i&#39;m not ready for this&#39; because when you go in with a &#39;yeah revolution&#33;&#39; type of mindset, and you realize it&#39;s war, killing, deaths, screaming and crying you will be shocked out of your mind. Basically my opinion is revolution and resistance is viewed the wrong way. Not really criticising anyone in particular, just the overall view on said topics.

[Karl Marx's Camel]

&#39;&#39;Even if these are to replace the older weapons, where are these older models going to go?&#39;&#39; wondered one State Department official, speaking on condition of anonymity. ``They&#39;re old. It doesn&#39;t mean they&#39;re useless.&#39;&#39;

Typical US arrogance, thinking that they have the right to control every nation on earth, demanding to be informed about anything that should not be of their concern.


Chávez recently said the new popular defense units would comprise 10 to 500 members each and would fall outside the normal military hierarchy and directly under the president&#39;s command, in effect creating Chávez&#39;s own, private revolutionary army. They are to be organized ``in the barrio, in the factory.&#39;&#39;

How many popular defense units will there be?

In other words, they will have the same tasks as the SS in Germany under Hitler?

Falling outside official military, becoming personal bodyguards especially loyal to Chávez, perhaps also elite forces?

Does anyone have more information on these units?



Yeah, fidel &#39;the guy that abandoned Che 2&#39;

After Guevara had resigned and moved to other countries at his own will, Castro, after Che coming in difficulties in the Congo, personally adviced and welcomed Che to train additional troops in Cuba, picking them out himself, and to freely use the facilities in Cuba.

[Ele'ill]

I was refering to the current cuba.

[fernando]

what about the current Cuba?

[fernando]

The language you use in your argument: Truman Doctrine, backyard, domino effect is no longer used by modern state department specialists.
So you believe the US just accepts that Latin American nations would turn against them? So far Chavez is just saying things which are against the US&#39; interests, and improving relationships with Cuba is something they fear. What if more Latin American nations are having way better relationships with each other and Cuba instead of being fully dependant on the US...a very dangerous situation for the US.



You know that if the U.S. DID invade Ven, the entire region would near declare war on the U.S. and would become more socialist as a result.

Hmm..nobody declared war on the US when they invaded Grenada or supported the Contras or other Latin American dictators...



Are you believing the U.S. would invade as part of wishful thinking?
What wishful thinking?



Anyway, what forces would invade? What regiments would we use? Again, you didn&#39;t answer my question of how Mrs. Rice and President Bush would "sell" the invasion to the American public, and the Congress who would have to vote the money.
How does the US sell a certain opinion...how does propaganda work? Figure that one out and you have your answer&#33;

[Urban Rubble]

In other words, they will have the same tasks as the SS in Germany under Hitler?

Falling outside official military, becoming personal bodyguards especially loyal to Chávez, perhaps also elite forces?

Does anyone have more information on these units?

What the hell are you talking about ? Where does the Nazi comparison come from ?

I imagine Chavez&#39;s defense plan is somewhat like the CDR&#39;s in Cuba.

[Mad Scottsman]

Why is it dangerous whether or not Ven is saying things or doing things against its interests. What interests? An invasion of Ven would be IMPOSSIBLE. There would be no public support. Take Iraq. There the leader chemically poisoned his people, raped women on a regular basis, flouted the U.N. and did a whole lot of crummy things. I&#39;m glad he&#39;s gone. He was a bum. Chavez is not, and not the whole of American marketing managers on Fifth Avenue can make him look like Ven should be invaded. Also, millions of regular Ven citizens would come out and kill the thousands of U.S. troops to defend Chavez and his government. If the whole of Iraq, or even 5% of its people, came outdoors tomorrow and worked to openly fight U.S. troops, our troops would be dead in a few days. Chavez has millions of supporters. Today there is video on the spot taken by forces who hate the U.S., and who will put it on the internet the next day. There is an anti-globalization network, and a cynical America, at least by about 45%, who wouldn&#39;t believe President Bush if he came out on TV and pushed for an anti-Chavez agenda which justified war.

Greneda was a joke that can&#39;t be compared to other circumstances. There was no real citizen support for any government at the time.

Current circumstances prevent the U.S. from invading any nation at this time. In an ironic way, President Bush has poisoned the water for an invasion. The citizens fo the U.S. wouldn&#39;t support it, the 109th Congress wouldn&#39;t pay for it. And public opinion and its manufacture has changed since the internet. All people have an outlet for their views, from radical left to right and the middle is totally cynical.

I say wishful thinking because many on the left want the U.S. to totally fuck up so the Revolution will begin. I merely make my comments because I believe the Left should use logic in its thinking.

Half the people at this site are waiting for a Chavez to crete a socialist nation. Good. But the other 1/2 is hoping the U.S. opposes it openly to create a world-wide revolution against the U.S. The thought of such death is sickening to me.

[Ele'ill]

Chavez is not, and not the whole of American marketing managers on Fifth Avenue can make him look like Ven should be invaded.

Yes, they could.



Also, millions of regular Ven citizens would come out and kill the thousands of U.S. troops to defend Chavez and his government.

This is what the school of the americas is for. Chavez gets assassinated, there is a us led coup.



If the whole of Iraq, or even 5% of its people, came outdoors tomorrow and worked to openly fight U.S. troops, our troops would be dead in a few days

No, the US would pull troops out and start bombing again. Then the troops would go in; again.