How have you been oppressed?

[t_wolves_fan]

A question for the Americans here, please describe for me an example of when the U.S. government, fascist as it is, blatantly oppressed your rights?


After all, examples from Nazi Germany or Fascist Italy are plentiful, what similar events have happened to you here in the States?

Thanks.

:ph34r:

[bunk]

I don't live in America but you can't base your arguments for capitalism solely on western nations

[t_wolves_fan]

Originally posted by [email protected] 9 2005, 04:28 PM
I don't live in America but you can't base your arguments for capitalism solely on western nations
And that answers my question how, exactly?

Speakie English?

Posters on here refer to the U.S. as a fascist dictatorship. So, I want to know how it is the government has oppressed them, specifically.

:ph34r:

[NovelGentry]

Through the DMCA they disallowed my right to do whatever I want with my so-called private property. For example, when I watch DVDs on my chosen Operating System (Linux) it is technically illegal. The code which decodes them is illegal. The fact that the code can get by region encoding is illegal.

This same legislation stops me from doing things like making legal copies of certain software, games, CDs. It stops me from taking the X-Box that I could have bought, had I had the money, and converting it into a Linux Media Center.

It prevents me from doing a lot of things with the supposed product that are mine.

Under the Patriot Act I can be arrested and placed in prison without charge, without access to a lawyer, without a hearing, indefinitely. The most they need to tell you is that I supported terrorism. Not that I actually need to, as I would have no way to tell my side, nor would I have any access to anyone who could.

While none of this has happened directly, it's difficult not to think of this short parable:

First they came for the Jews
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for the Communists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Communist.
Then they came for the trade unionists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for me
and there was no one left
to speak out for me.

Here's the Patriot Act:

http://www.epic.org/privacy/terrorism/hr3162.html

Here's some examples of people's who's lives it HAS affected, tell me if you want more:

http://www.rense.com/general61/feds.htm -- look up more info on this, and read what some of the physicists had to say about the possibility of a laser blinding a pilot at such a distance.

http://www.alternet.org/story/15770

here is info on the patriot act II:

http://www.aclu.org/SafeandFree/SafeandFre...?ID=12234&c=206 (http://www.aclu.org/SafeandFree/SafeandFree.cfm?ID=12234&c=206)

here is an illegal copy of the draft bill which I post because I think US citizens have a right to read what may very well become legislation:

http://www.dotink.org/~gent/content/FilingCabinet/pa2.pdf (right click and save as, it's nearly 16MB)


Posters on here refer to the U.S. as a fascist dictatorship. So, I want to know how it is the government has oppressed them, specifically.

Actually we're here to argue against capitalism, globally. Although sometimes the issue of whether the US and other Western nations are drifting towards fascism does come up.

[Non-Sectarian Bastard!]

Does it count, if you don't live in the US, but have been affected by the US regime?

[t_wolves_fan]

Through the DMCA they disallowed my right to do whatever I want with my so-called private property. For example, when I watch DVDs on my chosen Operating System (Linux) it is technically illegal. The code which decodes them is illegal. The fact that the code can get by region encoding is illegal.

This same legislation stops me from doing things like making legal copies of certain software, games, CDs. It stops me from taking the X-Box that I could have bought, had I had the money, and converting it into a Linux Media Center.

It prevents me from doing a lot of things with the supposed product that are mine.

From what I've read (http://news.com.com/2010-12-950229.html), a lot of your concerns are overblown.

And the copyrighted material you use in your property isn't yours.


Under the Patriot Act I can be arrested and placed in prison without charge,

I didn't ask how you "can" be oppressed, I asked how you HAVE been oppressed.



The slippery slope (http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/slippery-slope.html) argument is a logical fallacy, by the way.

[t_wolves_fan]

Originally posted by Non-Sectarian Bastard!@Feb 9 2005, 04:35 PM
Does it count, if you don't live in the US, but have been affected by the US regime?
Sure.

[Non-Sectarian Bastard!]

So. I was a resident of Afghanistan. But things got nasty as the US and it's "coalition of Freedom Cabbage" funded fundamentalist religionists. Hugh quantities of religionist nuts, drugs, weapons, explosives started pouring into Afghanistan. Which all didn't have a "healthy" effect on the population.

Furthermore, the usual exploitation.

[t_wolves_fan]

Originally posted by Non-Sectarian Bastard!@Feb 9 2005, 04:47 PM
So. I was a resident of Afghanistan. But things got nasty as the US and it's "coalition of Freedom Cabbage" funded fundamentalist religionists. Hugh quantities of religionist nuts, drugs, weapons, explosives started pouring into Afghanistan. Which all didn't have a "healthy" effect on the population.

Furthermore, the usual exploitation.
So we set up the Taliban?

[Questionauthority]

So we set up the Taliban?
Er Yes you did actually....the CIA hopped in bed with Bin Laden with the Russians invaded and gave them Stinger missiles+ training and prob a few foot massages. But you can't train a rabid dog so no wonder they were so surprised when 9/11 came around...
But I didnt expect you to know that as you are a foolish cappie....(thats a hint to get out more)

[NovelGentry]

From what I've read, a lot of your concerns are overblown.

And the copyrighted material you use in your property isn't yours.

We do not alter the copyrighted material. For example with the Linux on the iPod project. In no way to we actually change Apple's copyrighted code. On the contrary we replace it altogether. We are modifying the iPod itself. If the iPod does remain the copyrighted property of apple, under what grounds can you say it is my private property? It's hardly private property, and nearly not my property at all.

The DeCSS code is even lighter on this, as it does not change the original product at all (the DVD), but only allows you the ability to read the data off of it. Something any commercial DVD player does -- what they are effectively doing is the equivalent of taking away your right (assuming you're capable) of creating say your own CD player, or your own casset player. Thus their property rights extend beyond that of the product itself and restrict you from developing your own means. It's effectively patent law that infringes on individual rights. Where normal patent law would permit someone from making money off your idea by cloning your product, it extends beyond that and denies you the right to make such a product for individual use.

It's interesting you pointed to a single article of someone who surely has never been affected by the law.


I didn't ask how you "can" be oppressed, I asked how you HAVE been oppressed.

No, I'm not a big enough threat yet. Give me time, I'm young still.

[NovelGentry]

so no wonder they were so surprised when 9/11 came around

I'm not so sure it can be considered a surprise after reading Clark's testimony.

[Questionauthority]

I'm not so sure it can be considered a surprise after reading Clark's testimony.
I meant people as in twolves fan here.....bet the government ahda damn good idea but I'm not here to talk conspiracy haha

[dakewlguy]

I am a liberal, so I oppress people, not get oppressed myself. Duh.

[t_wolves_fan]

Originally posted by [email protected] 9 2005, 05:03 PM

So we set up the Taliban?
Er Yes you did actually....the CIA hopped in bed with Bin Laden with the Russians invaded and gave them Stinger missiles+ training and prob a few foot massages. But you can't train a rabid dog so no wonder they were so surprised when 9/11 came around...
But I didnt expect you to know that as you are a foolish cappie....(thats a hint to get out more)
Actually I know plenty about our involvement with the mujahideen in Afghanistan, but I'm not sure I agree that we supported bin Laden, specifically.

That we did not follow up on the Soviet withdrawal from Afghanistan was indeed a failure on our part.

[t_wolves_fan]

Originally posted by [email protected] 9 2005, 05:04 PM

From what I've read, a lot of your concerns are overblown.

And the copyrighted material you use in your property isn't yours.

We do not alter the copyrighted material. For example with the Linux on the iPod project. In no way to we actually change Apple's copyrighted code. On the contrary we replace it altogether. We are modifying the iPod itself. If the iPod does remain the copyrighted property of apple, under what grounds can you say it is my private property? It's hardly private property, and nearly not my property at all.

The DeCSS code is even lighter on this, as it does not change the original product at all (the DVD), but only allows you the ability to read the data off of it. Something any commercial DVD player does -- what they are effectively doing is the equivalent of taking away your right (assuming you're capable) of creating say your own CD player, or your own casset player. Thus their property rights extend beyond that of the product itself and restrict you from developing your own means. It's effectively patent law that infringes on individual rights. Where normal patent law would permit someone from making money off your idea by cloning your product, it extends beyond that and denies you the right to make such a product for individual use.

It's interesting you pointed to a single article of someone who surely has never been affected by the law.


I didn't ask how you "can" be oppressed, I asked how you HAVE been oppressed.

No, I'm not a big enough threat yet. Give me time, I'm young still.
OK sport, I will have to take your word on this issue as I'm not very familiar with it.

So, not being allowed to build your own DVD or CD player. Is that the worst example of oppression you have for me?

[Non-Sectarian Bastard!]

Glad you asked.

The "Mujahideen" which is the forerunner of many of today's muslim fundamentalist organisations, was funded, equipped, trained and even organized with assistance of the US. Al'Qaida, Taliban and other organisations senior leadership were/are made up of veterans of the Afghan war and ex-Mujahideen.

Anyway here is a small piece on the Taliban. I don't expect you to read it, but atleast you can't blame me then.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taliban

The US was pretty friendly towards the Taliban until 7 august 1998 (the day that Osama Bin Laden bombed 2 American embassies in Eastern Africa). Had the bombings not occured, then the plans for an American oilpipeline would have gone through and the Taliban would have received large ammounts of "protectionmoney".

There are a lot of articles on this. Ranging from CNN to Mother Jones.

Timelines:

http://www.worldpress.org/specials/pp/pipeline_timeline.htm

http://www.ringnebula.com/Oil/Timeline.htm Has links to articles.

You should note that when they say Afghan government of Afghanistan, that they mean the Taliban.

Taliban on sightseeing tours in Sugarland (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/west_asia/37021.stm)

http://www.webcom.com/hrin/magazine/pipeline.html Mother Jones article, explaining the article in short.

One of the first actions of the Bush jr. administration was to give 43 million dollar to the Taliban. Probaly, because they both hold the equal ammount of respect for human lives. :)

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2004/9/28/1012/80773

Anyway, there is a ton of stuff. On this. Just google a bit. It did cost me quite some time to compile this, so atleast read some, even though it hurts your narrow minded conservative brains.

[Non-Sectarian Bastard!]

Originally posted by [email protected] 9 2005, 06:24 PM
Actually I know plenty about our involvement with the mujahideen in Afghanistan, but I'm not sure I agree that we supported bin Laden, specifically.


The US did support Bin Laden. He was part of the Mujahideen.

Not that it matters if Bin Laden was supported specifically. The other muslims that the US supported, held the same ideas as Bin Laden.

Capitalist Justice?

[t_wolves_fan]

Originally posted by Non-Sectarian Bastard!@Feb 9 2005, 05:41 PM
Glad you asked.

The "Mujahideen" which is the forerunner of many of today's muslim fundamentalist organisations, was funded, equipped, trained and even organized with assistance of the US. Al'Qaida, Taliban and other organisations senior leadership were/are made up of veterans of the Afghan war and ex-Mujahideen.

Anyway here is a small piece on the Taliban. I don't expect you to read it, but atleast you can't blame me then.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taliban

The US was pretty friendly towards the Taliban until 7 august 1998 (the day that Osama Bin Laden bombed 2 American embassies in Eastern Africa). Had the bombings not occured, then the plans for an American oilpipeline would have gone through and the Taliban would have received large ammounts of "protectionmoney".

There are a lot of articles on this. Ranging from CNN to Mother Jones.

Timelines:

http://www.worldpress.org/specials/pp/pipeline_timeline.htm

http://www.ringnebula.com/Oil/Timeline.htm Has links to articles.

You should note that when they say Afghan government of Afghanistan, that they mean the Taliban.

Taliban on sightseeing tours in Sugarland (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/west_asia/37021.stm)

http://www.webcom.com/hrin/magazine/pipeline.html Mother Jones article, explaining the article in short.

One of the first actions of the Bush jr. administration was to give 43 million dollar to the Taliban. Probaly, because they both hold the equal ammount of respect for human lives. :)

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2004/9/28/1012/80773

Anyway, there is a ton of stuff. On this. Just google a bit. It did cost me quite some time to compile this, so atleast read some, even though it hurts your narrow minded conservative brains.
Like I said, I am already familiar with what you write about.

I read in Dick Clarke's book however that part of the reason bin Laden came to hate us so much is because the mujahideen favored our funding over his. It was like he wanted to be the big hero, but we were able to give him the goods, so he was relegated to being a side act. Our "hands off" policy, extremely short-sighted, eventually made bin Laden the only game in town and so his stature and importance increased.

So, in that regard, our failures at foreign policy left you oppressed. Fair enough.

but so far when it comes to oppressing our own citizens, all I've got is a law that may or may not prevent someone from playing a DVD on a homemade DVD player....

[NovelGentry]

Well you forgot the one that may or may not allow someone to be imprisoned without a lawyer for using a laser pointer. Also the one that may or may not allow journalists to print anything that hasn't been approved by the state.

You want to know whether the US is fascist or not, and the answer is no, it's not, not yet. Only the foundation is laid. But there are very common signs of fascism. Signs like: creating false threats and enemies in the name of security to the people and thus the state, increasing state control and bureacuracy over the people in order to deal with this threat, using propaganda to ensure strong patriotism and fear of said threat, concentration of power towards a single party, increasing opposition to that party:

"If you're still convinced that President Bush won the election because Republicans figured out a way to hack into electronic voting machines, you've obviously got a problem," says Smith. "If we can figure out a way to ease your suffering by getting you into therapy and onto medication, that's something that we hope the entire 109th Congress will support."

Smith being a representative to Republican Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist. I'm still looking for the draft version of this bill, as I'm not aware they've actually proposed it yet. The bill is to fall under the New Freedom Initiative, as far as I know. If you send me your e-mail address I'll make sure you're the first person to get the illegal copy if indeed I can find it.

Again, you localize the issue, as if the US has not supported some of the most blatantly oppressive and fascist regimes in the history of man. We communists have a global focus, if the US government supports a dictator in the third world who decides to wipe out say, 1.3 million people, we credit this to the US, as without their help it's questionable whether such a person would have come to power.

What we also look at is the general effects of capitalism, which do not imply any specific political system, however, it would seem that history has shown us that capitalism becomes ensured with fascism. The "threat" of socialism was indeed real and very active in Germany before it's rise to Fascism. As was movements in Italy, which Mussolini was actually a part of before he decided to turn his back on his once comrades.

[Non-Sectarian Bastard!]

Originally posted by [email protected] 9 2005, 06:53 PM
Like I said, I am already familiar with what you write about.

I read in Dick Clarke's book however that part of the reason bin Laden came to hate us so much is because the mujahideen favored our funding over his. It was like he wanted to be the big hero, but we were able to give him the goods, so he was relegated to being a side act. Our "hands off" policy, extremely short-sighted, eventually made bin Laden the only game in town and so his stature and importance increased.

So, in that regard, our failures at foreign policy left you oppressed. Fair enough.

but so far when it comes to oppressing our own citizens, all I've got is a law that may or may not prevent someone from playing a DVD on a homemade DVD player....
I started writing the reply earlier then you posted that you knew about it.

But there isn't much credit to give to Osama Bin Laden for the Afghan war. Most of his work included financing funds, leading newly arrived recruits around. He did rarely engaged in battle or even none.

He didn't start to hate the US, because of funds. He already hated the US, like many of his fellow muslim extremists. This has to do with the US being Christian, the US culture and most important of all US support to oppressive regimes in the Middle-East.

He thought off, first finishing off the USSR and then the US. Now, the USSR is gone and guess who is left.

Is this Capitalist justice?

Second. Exploitation and oppression in the west isn't limited to restricted freedoms when watching DVD's.

[redstar2000]

Originally posted by t_wolves_fan
A question for the Americans here, please describe for me an example of when the U.S. government, fascist as it is, blatantly oppressed your rights?

Why does it have to be personal?

(Hint: it's the way cappies think; as long as nothing bad happens to me, everything must be ok.)

What would a personal description mean to you, anyway?

If anti-globalization demonstrators are tortured and raped in Miami jails...well, it didn't happen to me or to you, right?

If unarmed and defenseless African-American youths are beaten or murdered by police on a daily basis...well, I'm not black and neither are you, so that "doesn't count", right?

If thousands of people (including innocent bystanders) are rounded up in New York City and imprisoned in an abandoned bus barn with toxic crap on the floors and knowingly held for illegal periods of time...well, it didn't happen to me or you, so "who cares"?

If the real mandate of the Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA) has nothing to do with earthquakes or hurricanes but is instead to plan for the arbitrary and indefinite imprisonment of a million or more "dangerous elements"...well, it hasn't happened yet, has it?

If the last two presidential elections were stolen...well, that's just politics, isn't it? After all, I wasn't a candidate and neither were you.

Get the picture? America isn't "fascist" until some evil shit happens to you, isn't that what you're saying?

I think it is.

I also have good reason to believe that if anyone did relate a personal experience to you in this thread, your response would be some version of "you deserved it".

Right?

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/123.gif

[The Garbage Disposal Unit]

Yr government's insane drug war has been a key factor in making my government unwilling to legalize marijuanna.

The American state in action.

The fact that marijuanna is illegal, continent-wide, has allowed growers and dealers to jack up prices to rediculous levels.

American capitalism in action.

. . . hmmm . . . as a Western white (well, not technically, but I appear to be white, so I'm off the hook) kid, I guess this whole business isn't so bad for me.

Mind you, the same capitalism, and the same drug war, would probably suck if I were a Colombian peasant, forced to turn to growing coca with the influx of cheap American grain, and then having the USAF dump poisoness chemicals on me.

I care about the poor coke-grower.

You need to smoke some dope and get laid, Mr. Wolves Fan.


I am never posting while this tired EVER again.

[t_wolves_fan]

Originally posted by [email protected] 9 2005, 06:44 PM


Well you forgot the one that may or may not allow someone to be imprisoned without a lawyer for using a laser pointer.

You mean when they point it at aircraft?




Also the one that may or may not allow journalists to print anything that hasn't been approved by the state.


I missed that one, which law says journalists must get everything approved by the state?

And "The Patriot Act" is not a proper answer. I'm asking for the specific statutory or regulatory language.


You want to know whether the US is fascist or not, and the answer is no, it's not, not yet. Only the foundation is laid.

Again, the slippery slope argument is a logical fallacy.



If you're still convinced that President Bush won the election because Republicans figured out a way to hack into electronic voting machines, you've obviously got a problem," says Smith. "If we can figure out a way to ease your suffering by getting you into therapy and onto medication, that's something that we hope the entire 109th Congress will support."

Smith being a representative to Republican Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist. I'm still looking for the draft version of this bill, as I'm not aware they've actually proposed it yet. The bill is to fall under the New Freedom Initiative, as far as I know. If you send me your e-mail address I'll make sure you're the first person to get the illegal copy if indeed I can find it.

http://neil.fraser.name/news/2002/stupid.jpg

Uhhh....how is it you relate Mr. Smith's remarks on voting in Ohio with the administration's

plan to increase mobility for persons with disabilities? (http://www.whitehouse.gov/infocus/newfreedom/)


I'd love to see that illgal copy of an executive order on mobility for the disabled, Mr. Hero.

:unsure:

[t_wolves_fan]

Originally posted by Non-Sectarian Bastard!@Feb 9 2005, 07:13 PM




Second. Exploitation and oppression in the west isn't limited to restricted freedoms when watching DVD's.

Which I have asked you to describe specifically in 4 or 5 posts now.


Let me try this really, really slowly...

You...

claim...

there...

is...

oppression...

of...

citizens....

in...

the...

west...

please....

describe...

specific...

examples...

of...

how...

you...

personally...

have...

been...

oppressed....


:unsure:

[t_wolves_fan]

Originally posted by Virgin Molotov [email protected] 10 2005, 06:38 AM





Yr government's insane drug war has been a key factor in making my government unwilling to legalize marijuanna.

So you are oppressed by not being allowed to smoke pot?

I'll agree that pot should be legalized, or at least decriminalized.

However, the U.S. is hardly the only nation on earth that bans the ganja. I'll concede it's stupid to ban it, but not being allowed to use dope hardly rises to the definition of "oppression".


Mind you, the same capitalism, and the same drug war, would probably suck if I were a Colombian peasant, forced to turn to growing coca with the influx of cheap American grain,

You sure that coca is their only alternative? If they're peasants they may be subsistence farmers anyway.


You need to smoke some dope and get laid, Mr. Wolves Fan.

Yes, I'm quite certain that the world's problems can be solved by smoking dope and getting laid. Never mind going to work, I'm sure that will fix everything...

:D

How old are you?

[CommieBastard]

Here is a very specific way in which I, you and everyone else is oppressed within society as it stands.
From a very young age you are subject to indoctrination, you are forced into belieiving in certain ideas without foundation, without an ability to determine an answer to the problem using your own computational abilities.

I suggest you find out a little bit about sociology, specifically socialisation.
It is easy to demonstrate that we are oppressed, because it is easy to demonstrate that we are not free.

Techniques for the shaping and directing of humans minds have been around for a good long time. The US has in the past certainly been actively involved in research into this field, and also definately still benefits from that which has been discovered.

Advertising teaches you to believe in capitalism. Advertising is a direct derivation of propoganda techniques used during the World Wars, which are themselves a derivation of what was at the time the cutting edge of psychology and psychiatry.

Whilst I am not willing to make a conjecture either way, it seems quite plausible that the US has not abandoned this promising line of research, and that it is now at a state of development beyond that which we are currently aware. This would in and of itself seem to a be a good reason for the dismantling of the state.

[t_wolves_fan]

Originally posted by [email protected] 10 2005, 05:57 AM







I also have good reason to believe that if anyone did relate a personal experience to you in this thread, your response would be some version of "you deserved it".

Right?

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/123.gif

Why does it have to be personal?

So that there is some evidence it really happened instead of passing around the same old stories found on the loon's blogs.

I want to know how YOU personally have been affected by our oh-so-oppressive state.


What would a personal description mean to you, anyway?


It will explain to me why it is you really think the U.S. is some fascist dictatorship. If you can come up with a story besides how mom and dad caught you smoking dope again, and told you to do your homework again, and were totally dragging on you to get a job again, then maybe you might gain some credibility.


If anti-globalization demonstrators are tortured and raped in Miami jails...well, it didn't happen to me or to you, right?

It would if it perhaps actually happened, which I very seriously doubt. What are your non-biased sources that this occurred?


If unarmed and defenseless African-American youths are beaten or murdered by police on a daily basis...well, I'm not black and neither are you, so that "doesn't count", right?

If it happened on a daily basis to a truly innocent person, then sure it would. But I'd like to hear the evidence that it happens. To date I've heard about as much evidence that police brutality occurs regularly as I have that the vote in Ohio was stolen - which is to say none at all.


If thousands of people (including innocent bystanders) are rounded up in New York City and imprisoned in an abandoned bus barn with toxic crap on the floors and knowingly held for illegal periods of time...well, it didn't happen to me or you, so "who cares"?

Show me the money! Show me a non-biased source from a group that doesn't have an agenda that this happened. Show me information about this from someone who isn't a group of people who purposely instigated violence or got themselves arrested and who views any attempt to enforce the law as "Fascist oppression".


If the real mandate of the Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA) has nothing to do with earthquakes or hurricanes but is instead to plan for the arbitrary and indefinite imprisonment of a million or more "dangerous elements"...well, it hasn't happened yet, has it?


:lol:

I KNOW PEOPLE who work for FEMA. The idea that they're involved in a sinister plot to round up "dangerous elements" is...just...plain... :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

That has got to be the dumbest goddamn thing I've ever heard.

But then I'd love to see the evidence.

Do you know people who work for FEMA? Have you ever actually seen FEMA round up "millions" of people (does this happen in the US or abroad?)


If the last two presidential elections were stolen...well, that's just politics, isn't it? After all, I wasn't a candidate and neither were you.

Except there isn't much evidence that either election was stolen.

Believe me champ, I've been debating this since before you probably got your driver's license. Ive seen the reports, heard the evidence, talked to people who worked in government in Florida in 2000. There is no evidence that Florida, or Ohio, were stolen. There's a lot of stories, "Oh, I saw people waiting 2 hours to vote", as if that means anything; "I saw some cops by the polling place", as if that means anything, "I heard an electronic machine said Bush after someone pushed Kerry", as if that means anything.

Yet in all this time, not one single county official has come forward with evidence that there was tampering. Not in Florida, not in Ohio. Couty officials, of course, are the ones who actually run the goddamn elections, so if something funny happened they'd know. Many of them, in fact all of them in the cities and in minority areas, are Democrats. So if ALL of them were in on the heist, then the Democrats have a pretty serious loyalty problem.

But none of that means anything to you, does it sport? Because you know you are right. That one website by that guy who your two pot buddies know said it was stolen, right? It said pretty clearly that the election was stolen on the pamphlet that ANSWER handed out, so it's gotta be true, right man? I mean they don't have an agenda, they're rational people who don't have an agenda, right man? And don't forget the peace group over at school, they're about fighting authority, and authority was in charge (as they tend to be), and they're always bad, so that's proof it was stolen, right man?

Dude, you know what I mean?


Get the picture? America isn't "fascist" until some evil shit happens to you, isn't that what you're saying?

I think it is.

Well, just like with everything else (especially FEMA...still can't get over that one...
:lol: ), you're wrong.

The reason I am asking you how YOU personally have been oppressed is because I want to hear what evidence YOU have seen and personally EXPERIENCED that indicates this is a fascist, oppressive state.

And the reason I want that is, based on the biographies listed by the vast majority of you in another thread, the most oppression you've ever experienced is your parents telling you to be home by 10 PM and to turn that goddamn Rage Against the Macine down a few notches.

Ya dig, sport?

So far I've got not being allowed to smoke dope and not being allowed to use a homemade DVD player.

Pardon me if I remain unconvinced.


FEMA! Rounding up dissidents!!

I love it!!

http://www.topfunpages.com/imgs/page_imgs/hf0402/laughing.gif

[DaCuBaN]

Well, interesting:


I've been debating this since before you probably got your driver's license.

I think perhaps you might be about... 50 years out? ;)

Word to the wise: When you decide to attack another member, have a look at their profile first. There's a nice handy link in there to show you previous posts by that member, and it even timestamps them for you.

You'll see that one member in particular you chose to single out has been posting here for several years, and almost certainly has been discussing this one considerably longer than yourself.


non-biased sources

Perhaps there is something you should know: there is no such thing as an unbiased source!


I KNOW PEOPLE who work for FEMA. The idea that they're involved in a sinister plot to round up "dangerous elements" is...just...plain...[laughable]

Most probably data entry operators, or perhaps even weather forecasters. Maybe their the coffee-kid, for all I know. What I do know is it's a massive organisation.

I can't account for the actions of the several thousand people employed for the weather agency I work with... how can you possibly account for the actions of a massive organisation based on second hand information.

This is all aside from the fact that when you take a job in such a place, you must sign a confidentiality agreement...

That's all aside from the point of course, because the statement was hypothesis:


If the real mandate of the Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA) has nothing to do with earthquakes or hurricanes but is instead to plan for the arbitrary and indefinite imprisonment of a million or more "dangerous elements"...well, it hasn't happened yet, has it?

Read, chump.


Yet in all this time, not one single county official has come forward with evidence that there was tampering. Not in Florida, not in Ohio. Couty officials, of course, are the ones who actually run the goddamn elections, so if something funny happened they'd know.

Evidently, someone has never heard the phrase; more than my job's worth....

[CommieBastard]

You seem to be working on the assumption that when someone accuses a state of being oppressive that they are equating it to fascism.
Not all oppression is fascist oppression, there are many systems whereby people are oppressed. In fact, so far every system tried has required that at least some element of society be oppressed.

Not everyone makes the childish association between the two things that you do.

[The Garbage Disposal Unit]

Posting in a more aware state now, I'm surprised nobody has mentioned anome, alienation, objectification, commoditification, despair, and dehumanization. The most disturbing and pervasive manifestations of oppression are the ones that can't be seen or quantified.

t_wolves_fan, yr denial of the everyday brutality inflicted by the police against visible minorities is absolutely disgusting. You are either living in a happy fantasy world, or you are a shamelss and disgusting liar.

[t_wolves_fan]

Posting in a more aware state now, I'm surprised nobody has mentioned anome, alienation, objectification, commoditification, despair, and dehumanization. The most disturbing and pervasive manifestations of oppression are the ones that can't be seen or quantified.

So it can't be quantified, or even seen. And yet you claim to know it's there.

Sounds like an article of faith to me.

The Holy Church of We're All Oppressed!



:lol:

[t_wolves_fan]

You'll see that one member in particular you chose to single out has been posting here for several years, and almost certainly has been discussing this one considerably longer than yourself.



Oops. Oh well.


Perhaps there is something you should know: there is no such thing as an unbiased source!

True, but that doesn't give license to post opinion from an interest group that masquerades as fact, which most posters on here seem to enjoy.



Most probably data entry operators, or perhaps even weather forecasters. Maybe their the coffee-kid, for all I know. What I do know is it's a massive organisation.

Now who is making the assumptions?

The people I know work in several different fields, including logistics and human resources.


I can't account for the actions of the several thousand people employed for the weather agency I work with... how can you possibly account for the actions of a massive organisation based on second hand information.

So, because you don't know what everyone does in your organization, you think it means some of them might be under the direction of President Bush to round up and exterminate dissidents?

I mean, would you like to at least attempt to join reality and not assume fascism lurks in every unknown?


This is all aside from the fact that when you take a job in such a place, you must sign a confidentiality agreement...

You sure about that? Do all federal employees sign confidentiality agreements?

I'm pretty sure they don't, since I'm currently working at a federal agency and haven't yet seen anything labelled as such.

Would you like to take another stab at the dark?


That's all aside from the point of course, because the statement was hypothesis:


If the real mandate of the Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA) has nothing to do with earthquakes or hurricanes but is instead to plan for the arbitrary and indefinite imprisonment of a million or more "dangerous elements"...well, it hasn't happened yet, has it?

Read, chump.

:lol:

OK, you're right, this statement:

"I think that Michael Jackson may be an alien from outter space sent to abduct children."

...is sure a hell of a lot more realistic and rational than,

"Michael Jackson is an alien from outter space sent to abduct children"

In other words, it wasn't an idiotic statement, it was an idiotic hypothesis.

Happy?



Yet in all this time, not one single county official has come forward with evidence that there was tampering. Not in Florida, not in Ohio. Couty officials, of course, are the ones who actually run the goddamn elections, so if something funny happened they'd know.

Evidently, someone has never heard the phrase; more than my job's worth....

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

First of all the folks in charge of the process aren't hired, they're elected.

And you're right, there is no political gain in bringing forth evidence that the other party cheated.

Is there.

I mean if I were a Democrat, living in an area that is majority Democrat, I certainly couldn't possibly gain from bringing evidence of Republican wrongdoing to light.

Could I?

I mean, it wouldn't make me a hero or anything, would it?

Are you maybe making the connection to which I am trying to lead you?

Those synapses firing yet?

:lol:

[redstar2000]

Originally posted by t_wolves_fan+--> (t_wolves_fan)So that there is some evidence it really happened instead of passing around the same old stories found on the loon's blogs.[/b]

But according to you, we commies are "loons" too...so why would you believe us?

Nope...you're just evading the issue. Your real point is that "t_wolves_fan has never been oppressed...and therefore oppression doesn't exist."


It will explain to me why it is you really think the U.S. is some fascist dictatorship.

It isn't yet...and, for all I know, may never be "officially fascist".

But there were "fascist elements" built in to the Weimar Republic from the beginning...and those elements grew stronger and stronger as the time of Hitler's accession to office approached.

The American legal code today is packed with provisions that, if implemented systematically, would easily convert the U.S. into a fascist state.


It would if it perhaps actually happened, which I very seriously doubt. What are your non-biased sources that this occurred?

It was widely reported on the indymedia sites at the time...but then you would consider indymedia a "loon blog", no doubt.

Only the big capitalist media is "unbiased" in your eyes.

Sucker!


If it happened on a daily basis to a truly innocent person, then sure it would. But I'd like to hear the evidence that it happens. To date I've heard about as much evidence that police brutality occurs regularly as I have that the vote in Ohio was stolen - which is to say none at all.

See above...you think that if the capitalist media doesn't report it, then it didn't happen.


Show me the money! Show me a non-biased source from a group that doesn't have an agenda that this happened.

Nice to know you have your price...how much is it?

(The difference between prostitutes and right-wingers is that there are some things prostitutes won't do for money.)

The conditions under which protesters were held in New York in violation of their own laws was, in fact, reported in the capitalist media.

Though not extensively.


Show me information about this from someone who isn't a group of people who purposely instigated violence or got themselves arrested and who views any attempt to enforce the law as "Fascist oppression".

Thanks for validating my prediction.

I said...


redstar2000
I also have good reason to believe that if anyone did relate a personal experience to you in this thread, your response would be some version of "you deserved it".

Your response was "on message". :lol:


I KNOW PEOPLE who work for FEMA. The idea that they're involved in a sinister plot to round up "dangerous elements" is...just...plain...the dumbest goddamn thing I've ever heard.

Many of the websites that talk about FEMA are "right-wing nutball" sites...gatherings of people worried about freemasonry, the Illuminati, etc.

But more sober sources exist. Here's one...

http://www.logicsouth.com/~lcoble/lfnv/fema_law.txt

And here's a nice summary from another message board...

http://www.georgewbush.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=13216

The "loon blogs" claim the camps already exist and are ready for use...but I don't know if that's credible.


Believe me champ, I've been debating this since before you probably got your driver's license. I've seen the reports, heard the evidence, talked to people who worked in government in Florida in 2000. There is no evidence that Florida, or Ohio, were stolen.

Alas, I am too old to safely operate a motor vehicle...and so, probably, are you.

But I do know that large numbers of African-Americans were illegally stricken from Florida voting roles prior to the 2000 election on the grounds they were "convicted felons" (which they weren't). Even if the Florida count was accurate, those voters would have made Gore a winner.

In Ohio, things remain quite murky...but since Republicans have shown their willingness to cheat (as, of course, have Democrats), I see no reason to "accept" the outcome as a "mandate" for Bush's "fascism-lite".

Which may turn out not to be so "lite" after all.


County officials, of course, are the ones who actually run the goddamn elections, so if something funny happened they'd know.

And they'd bravely step forward, at the risk of their careers and even possibly their lives, and say "yes, it was rigged".

And the capitalist media would shout it from the rooftops "Republicans Stole Ohio!".

Yeah, sure.


But none of that means anything to you, does it sport? Because you know you are right.

Yes, I have a high degree of confidence in my own judgment. I've seen enough lies and bullshit from the apologists and ideologues of capitalism in my years that I have a pretty good "eye" for it.

You clearly do not. You seem to have all the attributes, in fact, of a "good German" -- willingness to obey, superstitious reverence for authority, belief in the benevolence and competence of your rulers, etc., etc.

In other words, a hopeless sucker.

Perhaps you won't live long enough to see your illusions crash and burn...but I sort of hope you do. :D

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/123.gif

[CommieBastard]

to T Wolf:
No chance of a response?

[DaCuBaN]

True, but that doesn't give license to post opinion from an interest group that masquerades as fact, which most posters on here seem to enjoy.

You mean like most folks swallow up what Fox feeds them every night?


So, because you don't know what everyone does in your organization, you think it means some of them might be under the direction of President Bush to round up and exterminate dissidents?

Interesting you should mention this, as if I remember correctly US (this is certainly true in the UK - I remember reading the pamphlet with glee, and I wouldn't be surprised if it was the same situation in Japan, where I work) citizens were encouraged to be "on guard" and to "report anything/anyone suspicious".

To those of us with at least a modicum of lucidity, this is clearly scaremongering - but I'm sure you don't rate many folks that highly on that particular scale.


I mean, would you like to at least attempt to join reality and not assume fascism lurks in every unknown?

Well, do you know what goes on in the minds of all your colleagues? Can you be absolutely certain that the person down the corridor from you at your work isn't a closet Royalist (to pick one off the shelf)?

You know fine well you can't... and so to assume all is well on this ground is downright foolish - as foolish as to assume that the world is out to get you; that you're oppressed at every turn; that the Illumnati exist.

Our experiences and our senses really are that limited, we simply cannot know; as such, it is reasonable to doubt the integrity of those around you, especially when they rest in a position of political (or, to an extent otherwise) power.


Do all federal employees sign confidentiality agreements?

Only if they deal in information... I know not what field you work in, but I vividly remember the case of the "whistleblower" who was "sued" by MoD for both breaking her confidentiality agreement over a particular aspect of Operation Iraqi Liberation (as it was originally and almost ironically dubbed) and the Official Secrets Act.

Are you telling me that the US government is foolish enough not to demand loyalty of it's employees? I find that very interesting indeed!


I mean if I were a Democrat, living in an area that is majority Democrat, I certainly couldn't possibly gain from bringing evidence of Republican wrongdoing to light.

Could I?

Fair enough, yes. That's if you shout loudly enough - the case of the MoD whistleblower in the UK is a good example of this; the charges were dropped because it was so highly publicised, and although the exact details elude me it was a christian moral standpoint on which she cried out - a very popular one.

That doesn't mean she can get another job though... She chose here principles over her welfare, and once the media frenzy dies out, will probably end up stacking shelves in Asda (Wal-Mart's UK trading name) to make ends meet. That's the price you pay for having integrity in politics.

[t_wolves_fan]

But according to you, we commies are "loons" too...so why would you believe us?

Excellent question.

But so far, I haven't really had to answer it. The reason is, none of you has offered up evidence that you've been oppressed, or even witnessed oppression (outside of being unable to smoke pot or play homemade DVDs).


Nope...you're just evading the issue. Your real point is that "t_wolves_fan has never been oppressed...and therefore oppression doesn't exist."

Not entirely. Oppression exists, mostly in other countries, many of them thanks to United States foreign policy.

That what you want to hear? Because I ain't denying it at all.

What I am denying is the claims of loons on this board, and other loons on the communist/anti-war/anti-Bush/anti-America/anti-capitalism/anarchist fringe (and you ARE on the fringe), that any of you have ever really experienced any kind of oppression.



But there were "fascist elements" built in to the Weimar Republic from the beginning...and those elements grew stronger and stronger as the time of Hitler's accession to office approached.

A fact which means exactly nothing, so I don't quite understand why you bother bringing it up.

Is Bush pushing for the extermination of any race? If so, I haven't seen the evidence. Is he pushing to eliminate all opposition? Last I saw elections happened, Farenheit 9/11 was allowed to rake in megabucks despite its inaccuracies, 2 or 3 anti-Bush books come out every month, the Washington Post prints critical columns, and hundreds of thousands of patchouli-oil soaked bongo freaks invade Washington every few months. Has the Capitol burnt down yet? Does the GOP have its own army? Does Bush? Have we woken up one morning and found every business owned by Democrats burnt to the ground?

Do you sort of get my drift here sport?


The American legal code today is packed with provisions that, if implemented systematically, would easily convert the U.S. into a fascist state.

So you are a legal expert? Please list those specific statutes, along with their text and context.

Somehow I doubt you will, instead you'll realize that yet another of your claims has been challenged and you'll just ignore it.

U.S. code is easy to find. Hell here's the link, half your work is done. (http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/#TITLES)


It was widely reported on the indymedia sites at the time...but then you would consider indymedia a "loon blog", no doubt.

Only the big capitalist media is "unbiased" in your eyes.

Sucker!

Right. And I bet to you, only indymedia is unbiased.

How about a Washington Post article? They're as unbiased and respected as you're going to find.

Let's see it.




Originally posted by redstar2000
I also have good reason to believe that if anyone did relate a personal experience to you in this thread, your response would be some version of "you deserved it".

Your response was "on message". :lol:

Huh? All I've seen is claims that "Blacks are brutalized every day". I said show me the evidence. You haven't, plain and simple.

Innocent blacks don't deserve to be brutalized. Hell I just told you I'm sure it happens. I AM SURE IT HAPPENS AND IT SUCKS - IT SHOULD NOT HAPPEN.

Now show me how widespread it is, champ?



Many of the websites that talk about FEMA are "right-wing nutball" sites...gatherings of people worried about freemasonry, the Illuminati, etc.

But more sober sources exist. Here's one...

http://www.logicsouth.com/~lcoble/lfnv/fema_law.txt

And here's a nice summary from another message board...

http://www.georgewbush.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=13216



Right-wing nutballs are just as fucking stupid as left-wing nutballs.

Your logicsouth.com link did not work.

The top message on the georgewbush.org forum complains about executive orders letting the government take over everything, and that the process was begun under Richard Nixon.

Well let's see...first of all everyone of the Executive Orders he lists were issued by JOHN F. FUCKING KENNEDY, not Richard Nixon. This idiot can't even get that right, so why should I keep listening to anything he says?

Furthermore, every single EO he lists (http://www.archives.gov/federal_register/executive_orders/1962.html) has been revoked or superceded. THEY'RE NOT EVEN IN EFFECT ANY FUCKING MORE

Do you kind of understand why I refer to these people as uneducated idiots?


The "loon blogs" claim the camps already exist and are ready for use...but I don't know if that's credible.

Well, let's take a guess: this one can't even use readily-available sources to figure out that executive orders he's afraid of (and which were signed by a different President) don't exist anymore.

So, how much credibility would you like to give him?



But I do know that large numbers of African-Americans were illegally stricken from Florida voting roles prior to the 2000 election on the grounds they were "convicted felons" (which they weren't). Even if the Florida count was accurate, those voters would have made Gore a winner.

I'd like for you to explain to me exactly how those names were stricken from the record, including the role played by county elections officials, if you could.


In Ohio, things remain quite murky...but since Republicans have shown their willingness to cheat (as, of course, have Democrats), I see no reason to "accept" the outcome as a "mandate" for Bush's "fascism-lite".

Well let's see what's murky. So far, we've had a grand total of ONE county official come forward with an allegation of fraud. That was in Hocking County, and it was later shown to be totally legit.

Otherwise, not a single charge has been filed, not a single credible source. John Kerry had an army of attorneys whose brainpower could light up Cleveland for a solid decade, smarter than you and I will ever hope to be. They left, unable to find any evidence of fraud.

On the other hand, we had the son of a member of Congress convicted of slashing the tires of GOP get-out-the-vote vehicles in Milwaukee.



You clearly do not. You seem to have all the attributes, in fact, of a "good German" -- willingness to obey, superstitious reverence for authority, belief in the benevolence and competence of your rulers, etc., etc.

In other words, a hopeless sucker.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

You can't hold up any of your arguments, can you? So far, you really have nothing to stand on. Your claims have been disproven because you can't back any of them up. You attempted to back up the FEMA claim, but the source you use doesn't even know what President issued any of the executive orders he claims are evidence.

You're at the point you're telling me the Weimar Republic had elements of fascism in it. What the fuck do elements of a government which no longer exists have to do with the United States?

You sound as stupid as some bible-thumper who claims god is going to flood the earth at the first raindrop he feels. You know what I mean?

You're one of those types who sees oppression in every single aspect of everything, real or imagined (I'm sure to you it is real); and cries wolf. The problem is, you've cried wolf so many times that nobody gives a rat's ass about your claims anymore, which instead of bringing you back into blue-skied reality, has pushed you into purple-and-polka-dotted sky radicalism.



Perhaps you won't live long enough to see your illusions crash and burn...but I sort of hope you do. :D

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/123.gif

Don't worry, I am quite certain that I will be ok.

Do you think you're going to see your communist paradise exist before you die?

[Intifada]

So what if some of the left-wing "loons" on this board have not experienced oppression directly?

Does that mean that they cannot stand up for the oppressed?

[NovelGentry]

or play homemade DVDs

Just to correct you on this point, DeCSS is not for playing homemade DVDs, it is for playing DVDs, period. The most store bought, official, copyrighted versions -- it is the same type of code that is built into every commercial DVD player and DVD playing software. Up until DeCSS there was no way to play DVDs if you had an open source operating system.

[redstar2000]

Originally posted by t_wolves_fan
What I am denying is the claims of loons on this board, and other loons on the communist/anti-war/anti-Bush/anti-America/anti-capitalism/anarchist fringe (and you ARE on the fringe), that any of you have ever really experienced any kind of oppression.

In other words, even if we said we did, you'd deny it if possible and say we "deserved it" if denial was impossible.

Why bother to pretend otherwise?

Who do you think you're fooling besides yourself?


A fact which means exactly nothing, so I don't quite understand why you bother bringing it up.

History is a problem for you guys, isn't it? I suppose you believe that history only applies to other countries full of foreigners...America is unique.

:lol:


So you are a legal expert? Please list those specific statutes, along with their text and context.

Write your own books, guy...or seek out the ones already written.

I have better ways to spend my time.


Somehow I doubt you will, instead you'll realize that yet another of your claims has been challenged and you'll just ignore it.

With all the wide-spread publicity about the Patriot Act, your pretense of ignorance rings as false as a speech by Bush.


How about a Washington Post article? They're as unbiased and respected as you're going to find.

:lol: :lol: :lol:


Now show me how widespread it is, champ?

No one knows, of course. As I noted earlier, if you don't see it, "then" it doesn't exist.


Your logicsouth.com link did not work.

I just tried it and it worked fine. Maybe it's a "blocked site" from where you work. :)


Well let's see...first of all everyone of the Executive Orders he lists were issued by JOHN F. FUCKING KENNEDY, not Richard Nixon. This idiot can't even get that right, so why should I keep listening to anything he says?

Well, let's take a guess: this one can't even use readily-available sources to figure out that executive orders he's afraid of (and which were signed by a different President) don't exist anymore.

So, how much credibility would you like to give him?

Not much. :P

It would seem that here you have a legitimate criticism; people are reacting to particular Executive Orders and never bothering to go back and see that they've been revoked/superseded and what the texts of the new EOs actually say.

I gravely doubt that the White House (under Kennedy, Nixon, or any of the bastards) ever chose the less authoritarian option...but the possibility must be admitted.


I'd like for you to explain to me exactly how those names were stricken from the record, including the role played by county elections officials, if you could.

Sure...there was an article about it in Harper's Magazine some years ago.

The State of Florida hired a private contractor to check Florida's voting rolls against lists of convicted felons in the United States.

The firm came back with a long list of "matched names". The Florida Secretary of State (yeah, her) then transmitted the list broken down by counties to the appropriate county officials.

The county officials were (it is claimed) "supposed" to contact each of those challenged voters and advise them that they were going to be removed from the lists (and how to challenge their removal)...but that was never done. So the voters didn't find out they were purged until they showed up to vote.

The "matches" were crap...one guy got purged because of his felony conviction "in 2007".

The real intent was to reduce the black vote...and it worked very well indeed.


Otherwise, not a single charge has been filed, not a single credible source. John Kerry had an army of attorneys whose brainpower could light up Cleveland for a solid decade, smarter than you and I will ever hope to be. They left, unable to find any evidence of fraud.

Or nothing they or Kerry felt comfortable about going into court with...especially given a Supreme Court that does not inspire confidence (to put it mildly).

There are a lot of angles to this stuff, after all. What would Kerry and the Democrats gain from showing that American elections are a fraud? Don't forget that the reason that we have elections is to preserve the appearance of "democracy"...even though, for example, the vast majority of congressional districts are as "one-party dominated" as anything in the old USSR.

And then there are the electronic voting machines provided by companies with close ties to the Republican Party...how "reliable" do you think the machines really are?


You're one of those types who sees oppression in every single aspect of everything, real or imagined (I'm sure to you it is real); and cries wolf. The problem is, you've cried wolf so many times that nobody gives a rat's ass about your claims anymore, which instead of bringing you back into blue-skied reality, has pushed you into purple-and-polka-dotted sky radicalism.

Nice rant. Semantic content = zero.


Do you think you're going to see your communist paradise exist before you die?

Nope...too old. :(

But I think (or at least hope) that I'll be around long enough to see the re-emergence of a serious revolutionary movement in the U.S.

Like the 60s...only better.

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/123.gif

[t_wolves_fan]

In other words, even if we said we did, you'd deny it if possible and say we "deserved it" if denial was impossible.

Why bother to pretend otherwise?

Who do you think you're fooling besides yourself?

So you're taking the easy way out by not bothering to test your hypothesis.

It's because you've never really been oppressed and you know it, isn't it?



History is a problem for you guys, isn't it? I suppose you believe that history only applies to other countries full of foreigners...America is unique.

:lol:

LOL.

What is the reaction when I mention that communism has been tried but it didn't work?

I get the exact same response I just gave you:

1>History is not a past indicator of the future

2>That system (the Weimar Republic, USSR) isn't the "kind" of system I'm talking about (The U.S. Government, your style of communism)




Write your own books, guy...or seek out the ones already written.

I have better ways to spend my time.

There it is, the calling card of people who like to make claims but who have a hard time backing them up.

"I'm right, I know it, do your own research, I can't be bothered to supply an facts or evidence."

You know I'm right, don't you?



No one knows, of course. As I noted earlier, if you don't see it, "then" it doesn't exist.

Don't look now, you're making the argument of the religious. You must believe in God then, because after all, just because we dont' see him, doesn't mean he doesn't exist right?

Tell me, do you think it's more logical to question the existence of something you don't see or to assume it exists even when you admit you can't see it?

I'm not expecting a serious response.




Not much. :P

It would seem that here you have a legitimate criticism; people are reacting to particular Executive Orders and never bothering to go back and see that they've been revoked/superseded and what the texts of the new EOs actually say.

I gravely doubt that the White House (under Kennedy, Nixon, or any of the bastards) ever chose the less authoritarian option...but the possibility must be admitted.

You could always look it up, they're all easily available on-line.

Oh but I forgot, you don't have time for that, do you?

:lol:


Sure...there was an article about it in Harper's Magazine some years ago.

The State of Florida hired a private contractor to check Florida's voting rolls against lists of convicted felons in the United States.

The firm came back with a long list of "matched names". The Florida Secretary of State (yeah, her) then transmitted the list broken down by counties to the appropriate county officials.

The county officials were (it is claimed) "supposed" to contact each of those challenged voters and advise them that they were going to be removed from the lists (and how to challenge their removal)...but that was never done. So the voters didn't find out they were purged until they showed up to vote.

You sure that your claim that it was never done is accurate there sport?

I have evidence and factual information that it's not, but don't bother to ask me to give it to you, because when I make a claim it's your job to verify its accuracy, right?



Or nothing they or Kerry felt comfortable about going into court with...especially given a Supreme Court that does not inspire confidence (to put it mildly).

There are a lot of angles to this stuff, after all. What would Kerry and the Democrats gain from showing that American elections are a fraud? Don't forget that the reason that we have elections is to preserve the appearance of "democracy"...even though, for example, the vast majority of congressional districts are as "one-party dominated" as anything in the old USSR.

So, let me get this straight, the Democrats assembled a massive effort to find voter fraud on election night (armies of poll watchers, lawyers, phone banks, etc.) with the purpose of not bothering to use it when it found evidence of the fraud it was looking for?

This is the part where we have a laugh at how stupid your assertion is.

:lol:



Like the 60s...only better.

Your problem is that unlike yourself most of those 60s kids grew up, realized the world can't be changed by making unfounded assertions while high on LSD, got jobs, and became a little more realistic.

I have no evidence to back that up, but I can't be bothered to provide it. But it's true. I'm certain of it.

Idiot.

[redstar2000]

Originally posted by t_wolves_fan
So you're taking the easy way out by not bothering to test your hypothesis.

It's because you've never really been oppressed and you know it, isn't it?

Your posts are pretty forgettable but I thought at least you would remember your own words.


Show me information about this from someone who isn't a group of people who purposely instigated violence or got themselves arrested and who views any attempt to enforce the law as "Fascist oppression".

My hypothesis was tested and you passed with flying colors.

Your view is that American state-terrorism is justified.


What is the reaction when I mention that communism has been tried but it didn't work?

I get the exact same response I just gave you:

1>History is not a past indicator of the future

2>That system (the Weimar Republic, USSR) isn't the "kind" of system I'm talking about (The U.S. Government, your style of communism)

Yes, it's a nice parallel.

The question is who's right and who's wrong.


There it is, the calling card of people who like to make claims but who have a hard time backing them up.

Patriot Act.


Don't look now, you're making the argument of the religious. You must believe in God then, because after all, just because we don't see him, doesn't mean he doesn't exist, right?

The problem of "God" does not reduce to "invisibility".

There's no scientific evidence of any kind for the supernatural...much less one that's inhabited.

The evidence for massive police brutality is scattered -- a local newspaper might cover the story on page 50, etc. Only rarely does the national media pick up the story.

In addition to which we must remember your primary axiom: anyone who is a victim of police terrorism probably had it coming.


I'm not expecting a serious response.

You've done little to merit one.


You could always look it up, they're all easily available on-line.

To what end? I'm not a lawyer and I proceed on the assumption that EOs have, among other things, oppressive purposes.

There are people of the left (sort of) who do claim to be keeping track of those details...and I'm as disappointed in their sloppiness as you are.


Oh but I forgot, you don't have time for that, do you?

That's correct -- I don't have time for that.

From your remarks on this board, there are clearly a great number of things that you don't have time for.

Like thinking.


You sure that your claim that it was never done is accurate there sport?

Yes. I have a high degree of confidence in Harper's Magazine.


I have evidence and factual information that it's not, but don't bother to ask me to give it to you, because when I make a claim it's your job to verify its accuracy, right?

Who cares? Give it or not as you wish.


So, let me get this straight, the Democrats assembled a massive effort to find voter fraud on election night (armies of poll watchers, lawyers, phone banks, etc.) with the purpose of not bothering to use it when it found evidence of the fraud it was looking for?

I believe what I said was that they were not able to locate enough evidence that they felt comfortable going into court with.

And yes, I also said that they may have had other considerations in mind...including the risk of undermining public confidence in the whole system of fake "elections".

Too late for that, of course...as there seem to be a lot of people that believe Bush stole the election in Ohio (and Florida again).

I think it's plausible...though I probably wouldn't bet the rent money on it.

You, of course, were too busy kissing Bush's ass to notice.


Your problem is that unlike yourself most of those 60s kids grew up, realized the world can't be changed by making unfounded assertions while high on LSD, got jobs, and became a little more realistic.

Translation: learned to like the taste of shit.


Idiot.

Sucker! :D

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/123.gif

[t_wolves_fan]

Well, it's obvious we're not going to agree on much.

I'd like to point out for the record that you've given me zero evidence of any oppression of minorities, the public at large, yourself, etc.

Zip

Nada

Zilch


All you've done is come up ways to blame me for your inability to find any. The more I ask, the more you obfuscate.


When Bush finally does get you and sends you to Miniluv, I hope I'm the one who gets to send you to room 101.

:lol:

http://www.arkansasrockers.com/database/images/bill-lumberg.jpg

[redstar2000]

Dream on, sucker. :D

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/123.gif

[The Garbage Disposal Unit]

Alright, off the top of my head . . .

Maher Arar
Leneord Peltier
Sgt. Abdullah Webster
Mumia Abu-Jamal
The Cuban Five

. . . and unfortunately, these examples just happen to be the well publicized ones that have stuck in my head. These are, literally, the rule, rather than the exception. That is these cases have all involved the full implementation of American "justice". And to think, ths is what they do to Americans (Or, in the case of Arar, respectable Canadian citizens) all within their law* - what do they do to folk without the dubious protection of their courts?



*The old digger song holds true - the club is all their law . . .

[Raisa]

Originally posted by [email protected] 9 2005, 04:09 PM
A question for the Americans here, please describe for me an example of when the U.S. government, fascist as it is, blatantly oppressed your rights?


The government doesnt really have to do shit.
They can just sit back while shitty slum lords, crooked bosses and other theives screw us over, and then they can all profit from it together and tell us "god bless"

[EneME]

Originally posted by [email protected] 9 2005, 04:09 PM
A question for the Americans here, please describe for me an example of when the U.S. government, fascist as it is, blatantly oppressed your rights?


After all, examples from Nazi Germany or Fascist Italy are plentiful, what similar events have happened to you here in the States?

Thanks.

:ph34r:
um the US government supported a regime that oppressed my family for wanting to help and sympathisized with those who did not want to be exploited by corporations anymore....and yes I am american (legally)

[Xvall]

Ok. I'll name a couple of things.

1) If I get caught using a specific plant for my own personal benifit, I am to be thrown into prison, possibly given a sentence as long as those given to murdurers and rapists — sometimes the sentence is even longer. Several people I know have had their lives ruined and been abused in prison simply for posessing miniscule quantities of marijuana.

2) My sister is prohibited from marrying the love of her life.

[Professor Moneybags]

Originally posted by [email protected] 13 2005, 11:22 PM
um the US government supported a regime that oppressed my family for wanting to help and sympathisized with those who did not want to be exploited by corporations anymore....and yes I am american (legally)
How were you oppressed and how were you helping ?

[Ele'ill]

I'd like to point out for the record that you've given me zero evidence of any oppression of minorities, the public at large, yourself, etc.

Zip

Nada

Zilch


All you've done is come up ways to blame me for your inability to find any. The more I ask, the more you obfuscate.

I mean this as a serious question as I did not read every post in this thread, what was your point to asking if any of us in america have been oppressed? I did not catch it in any of the posts I read so if you could restate the reason it would be appreciated.

[Red Ghost]

He is questioning the fact that many leftists rants include talks of constant "government oppression." I don't think such a thing exists, and niether does he, otherwise he wouldn't ask. It's all propaganda.

[EneME]

Originally posted by Professor Moneybags+Feb 14 2005, 10:55 PM--> (Professor Moneybags @ Feb 14 2005, 10:55 PM)
[email protected] 13 2005, 11:22 PM
um the US government supported a regime that oppressed my family for wanting to help and sympathisized with those who did not want to be exploited by corporations anymore....and yes I am american (legally)
How were you oppressed and how were you helping ? [/b]
my mother/grandmother/cousins work(ed) in sweatshops, my family were working class so no one made a living wage in poor conditions (third world country) and eventually followed/stalked by military, death, threats etc.....participated in strikes, union meetings/civil disobedience, boycotts, and not being a snitch of others...

[Ele'ill]

I do not understand how being oppressed or not being oppressed has anything to do with having compassion. When our one party government elects a president, and there are injustices done, with most of the world opposed to his presidency, I would say yes by having injustices done in my name I am being oppressed. I have strong feelings towards those being oppressed in my name. Crimes against humanity and oppression aren't just tangible 'cop beating guy' scenerios. There are ideological crimes as well.



I'd like to point out for the record that you've given me zero evidence of any oppression of minorities, the public at large, yourself, etc


The disturbing thing isn't that nobody here 'gave' you evidence, it's that you couldn't find any yourself. So you are saying that there is no oppression here in america? I think the patriot act as said earlier in this thread is one of the leading current acts of oppression against a civilian population.
I seriously hope by asking for examples of oppression in this country you are excluding Native Americans, Slavery, oppression during the civil rights movement ect..

[redstar2000]

Originally posted by Red [email protected] 14 2005, 07:41 PM
He is questioning the fact that many leftists rants include talks of constant "government oppression." I don't think such a thing exists, and neither does he, otherwise he wouldn't ask. It's all propaganda.
No, he knows it exists...but he has to pretend that it's "justified".

Feel the same, do you?

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/123.gif

[Ele'ill]

So while we're talking about justification of oppression and general attrocities..wouldn't 9-11 be 'justified'?

[t_wolves_fan]

Originally posted by [email protected] 15 2005, 02:09 AM

I'd like to point out for the record that you've given me zero evidence of any oppression of minorities, the public at large, yourself, etc


The disturbing thing isn't that nobody here 'gave' you evidence, it's that you couldn't find any yourself. So you are saying that there is no oppression here in america? I think the patriot act as said earlier in this thread is one of the leading current acts of oppression against a civilian population.
I seriously hope by asking for examples of oppression in this country you are excluding Native Americans, Slavery, oppression during the civil rights movement ect..


So while we're talking about justification of oppression and general attrocities..wouldn't 9-11 be 'justified'?

Do you think it can be justified?
Whether or not I can find examples on my own has nothing to do with asking you how you specifically have been oppressed.

You're the second poster in this thread to rant about the Patriot Act. Please show me the provisions you find oppressive and, even better, how it has been used oppressively against you.

It's easy to rant and rave that the "Patriot Act is oppressive", but you have to back it up with some evidence or you're just another boy who cries wolf. You could at least start for instance with the court cases that have rightly struck down a few actions under the Patriot Act.


Have I found oppression here in America? I don't honestly know. I think there is a very high threshold for that definition to be met, unlike yourself I don't assume it exists in each and every circumstance where something bad happens.

I think the Bush Administration has oppressed a few people unjustly with its actions under the Patriot Act, but haven't seen any evidence that it's wide-spread or systematic. I live and work in a city that is overwhelmingly African American, and have yet to see any evidence that its population is oppressed in the slightest way. I work with plenty of women, African Americans and other minorities who are fantastic people, and see no evidence at all that they are oppressed.

There have been no allegations of police brutality that I remember in the 4 years I've lived here, and I honestly do not remember anybody being shot by the police. In fact I'd say at least two-thirds of the police I've seen in this city are minorities. I've seen plenty of demonstrations here and took part in a peace march in spring 2003. I saw a couple of anarchists get their skulls cracked in up in Adams Morgan that day and honestly felt they deserved it - they went after the cops, taunted them, threw shit at them, etc. That is not free speech, that's assault. What the hell did they expect?

Are Native Americans oppressed? I don't doubt it, they're screwed by an inefficient system that needs radical reform. Slavery ended 150 years ago so it is irrelevant. There are no hoses or dogs being used on minorities. I'm talking about the present, not the past when I ask how you are being oppressed.

So, I continue to ask the posters on this board, mostly spoiled white kids who still live at home or are in college, to stop parroting the claims of oppression against others and tell me how they specifically have been oppressed; and I'll even broaden it to ask specifically what oppression they themselves have witnessed. I'm not talking about claims about broad-based societal oppression; I'm talking about individual acts.

This really should not be that hard.

But it does remind me of a story Sports Illustrated ran a few years ago on the furor over teams using Native American mascots. It polled Native Americans and whites and found whites were a hell of a lot more likely to be offended by the mascots then were the Native Americans themselves - more evidence that white yuppies who feel guilty over their situation need better things to do with their time.

[redstar2000]

Originally posted by t_wolves_fan
I saw a couple of anarchists get their skulls cracked in up in Adams Morgan that day and honestly felt they deserved it - they went after the cops, taunted them, threw shit at them, etc. That is not free speech, that's assault. What the hell did they expect?

As noted before, if you don't see it then it doesn't exist...but if you do see it, then the victims "deserve it".

"Taunting" the police? Oh my, that's terrible.

And "threw shit at them"? Before or after the pigs started beating on people?

Never mind.


So, I continue to ask the posters on this board, mostly spoiled white kids who still live at home or are in college, to stop parroting the claims of oppression against others and tell me how they specifically have been oppressed; and I'll even broaden it to ask specifically what oppression they themselves have witnessed. I'm not talking about claims about broad-based societal oppression; I'm talking about individual acts.

Yes, you'd like to talk about "individual acts" because it takes your system off the hook.

Brutal cops? It's just a few bad apples.

Racial profiling? An excess of bureaucratic zeal.

Union busting? Perhaps a legislative remedy is in order.

Corporate corruption? um, um, bad apples, yeah, that's it.

Quite an orchard you've got there, booby.


Have I found oppression here in America? I don't honestly know. I think there is a very high threshold for that definition to be met, unlike yourself I don't assume it exists in each and every circumstance where something bad happens.

Of course you don't...you can't! If you did, it would call into serious question your whole way of looking at the world.

It would likely make it rather difficult for you to look at yourself in the mirror every morning.

You'd end up having to buy and wear one of those t-shirts...the ones that say PROUD to be a LACKEY.

Not much fun contemplating that, eh?

And a side note concerning "spoiled white kids": just exactly what is that interesting phrase supposed to mean, anyway? Is it only black people who are "permitted" to speak of the systematic oppression of blacks? Or only Hispanic people who are "permitted" to speak of the systematic oppression of Latinos?

What does the word "spoiled" really mean in this context? You mean they were raised to enjoy privilege but somehow the conditioning "didn't take" and thus they are spoiled for the use of capitalism?

Maybe you could send them all to Jamaica?

http://www.revolutionaryleft.com/index.php...5645&hl=jamaica (http://www.revolutionaryleft.com/index.php?showtopic=25645&hl=jamaica)

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/123.gif

[t_wolves_fan]

Originally posted by t_wolves_fan
I saw a couple of anarchists get their skulls cracked in up in Adams Morgan that day and honestly felt they deserved it - they went after the cops, taunted them, threw shit at them, etc. That is not free speech, that's assault. What the hell did they expect?

As noted before, if you don't see it then it doesn't exist...but if you do see it, then the victims "deserve it".

"Taunting" the police? Oh my, that's terrible.

And "threw shit at them"? Before or after the pigs started beating on people?

Never mind.

Tell me RedStar, do you believe that police start every single incident that results in a beating?

I mean every single one?

Is it within the realm of possibility that it was the protesters who got out of hand?


Of course you don't...you can't! If you did, it would call into serious question your whole way of looking at the world.

It would likely make it rather difficult for you to look at yourself in the mirror every morning.

You'd end up having to buy and wear one of those t-shirts...the ones that say PROUD to be a LACKEY.

Not much fun contemplating that, eh?

Tell me RedStar, have you ever called into serious question your own way of looking at the world?

Ever go to a conservative board and argue based on the facts with them?

Or do you have a license on the truth?


And a side note concerning "spoiled white kids": just exactly what is that interesting phrase supposed to mean, anyway? Is it only black people who are "permitted" to speak of the systematic oppression of blacks? Or only Hispanic people who are "permitted" to speak of the systematic oppression of Latinos?

Of course not. But if you've got a bunch of whites saying a group is oppressed and that group really isn't complaining very much, to whom should we give the benefit of the doubt?


What does the word "spoiled" really mean in this context? You mean they were raised to enjoy privilege but somehow the conditioning "didn't take" and thus they are spoiled for the use of capitalism?

It means they've had everything handed to them on a silver platter and think it's possible for everyone else to have the same. Instead of helping people through charity and teaching people how to better themselves through hard work, they think the fact that not everyone has as much as they do is the result of some global plot; and that the government can and should take care of it all.

So far your only real argument is to insult me and call me a "lackey". Well, remember Red, you're no less of a conformist than I am. You conform to be just like your anti-establishment hippy commie buddies every day. You post to this forum constantly and hang out with similar-minded people because you want to belong and to do so you conform to the group, no different from me.

The only difference is that I conform to a system that has been shown to work, has worked for me and countless others, and provides me the freedom to do a lot of the things I want to do. You conform to an ideology that is a proven failure and which approximately .05% of the human population takes seriously.

You know Red, they say insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result.

You can call me a lackey all you want, but at the end of the day I go home feeling very comfortable with myself and how things are going despite your rants and raves, which means you're a failure. But by all means, continue the revolution. I'm sure in your mind you're doing something really, really important in standing up to authority as much as possible, which is a phase most people move out of once they're out of their teens.


Have a great day.

[redstar2000]

Originally posted by t_wolves_fan
Tell me RedStar, do you believe that police start every single incident that results in a beating?

I mean every single one?

Yes.

Here's one for you...


Park under fire after disabled man shot with Taser

ORLANDO, Fla. -- A 45-year disabled man is considering possible legal action against Universal Studios Orlando after he was shot to the ground by an off-duty Orlando police officer patrolling the theme park, according to an exclusive Local 6 News Problem Solvers investigation.

Orlando police say the officer in this case has not been disciplined and even though he was "off-duty," by law, he is still authorized to use his Taser gun.

Universal Studios says officials often hire police to patrol the park and have no plans to change their policy to prevent off-duty officers from using Taser guns against other Universal customers, according to the report.

http://www.floridatoday.com/apps/pbcs.dll/...NGNEWS/50216002 (http://www.floridatoday.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050216/BREAKINGNEWS/50216002)

Even documented by the bourgeois media.


Tell me RedStar, have you ever called into serious question your own way of looking at the world?

Ever go to a conservative board and argue based on the facts with them?

Or do you have a license on the truth?

1. No

2. I don't have to...every so often, they organize a group to come here. And they wouldn't know a fact if it walked up to them and bit them in the leg.

3. Yes, signed by Karl Marx himself. It expires on March 1, 2400.


It means they've had everything handed to them on a silver platter and think it's possible for everyone else to have the same.

Well, isn't it? Shouldn't it be? And if you answer both of those questions in the negative, then explain why anyone deserves to "have everything handed to them on a silver platter"?

If the kids who come here are "spoiled", what word do you use for the bastards who run this shithole of a country?


Instead of helping people through charity and teaching people how to better themselves through hard work, they think the fact that not everyone has as much as they do is the result of some global plot; and that the government can and should take care of it all.

Awww...charity and hard work. If Bush and Kerry "could do it", why not anyone, right? :lol:

I'm surprised you didn't throw praying into the mixture...it "works" just as well as your proposed options and requires even less effort.

Since I'm a communist and not a socialist, your comment about the "government taking care of everything" doesn't apply to me.

But just "for the sake of argument", why shouldn't the government "take care of everything"? What the fuck are we paying those bastards for?

Socialists do think there ought to be an genuinely democratic government that does "take care of everything"...and everybody.

All your government "takes care of" is other rich bastards like themselves.

Who needs that?


The only difference is that I conform to a system that has been shown to work, has worked for me and countless others, and provides me the freedom to do a lot of the things I want to do.

What's that, lackey, go shopping?

Watch dummyvision?

Have some one-on-one face time with "Jesus"?

Those appear to be the three main activities of most Americans these days...definitely a "full life". :lol:

I'd rather be a heroin addict than eat the shit that you consume.


You can call me a lackey all you want, but at the end of the day I go home feeling very comfortable with myself and how things are going despite your rants and raves, which means you're a failure.

I would rather try to do the right thing and fail than try to do the wrong thing and suck-ceed.

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/123.gif

[t_wolves_fan]

Originally posted by redstar2000+--> (redstar2000)
t_wolves_fan
Tell me RedStar, do you believe that police start every single incident that results in a beating?

I mean every single one?

Yes.[/b]

Then you're an idiot.




Park under fire after disabled man shot with Taser

ORLANDO, Fla. -- A 45-year disabled man is considering possible legal action against Universal Studios Orlando after he was shot to the ground by an off-duty Orlando police officer patrolling the theme park, according to an exclusive Local 6 News Problem Solvers investigation.

Orlando police say the officer in this case has not been disciplined and even though he was "off-duty," by law, he is still authorized to use his Taser gun.

Universal Studios says officials often hire police to patrol the park and have no plans to change their policy to prevent off-duty officers from using Taser guns against other Universal customers, according to the report.


Wow Red, the fact that an off-duty police officer in Orlando may or may not have broken the law by tazering a handicapped man really proves to me that ALL incidents of violence during protests are caused by the cops.

That is quite possibly the stupidest argument I've ever seen made. It's raining right now. If i were to go up to my coworker and tell them that these drops prove the planet is going to flood, I'd be making the exact same argument you are.

Do you understand what I mean by that?




Tell me RedStar, have you ever called into serious question your own way of looking at the world?


1. No

Then you fit the definition of a closed-minded reactionary, don't you?



It means they've had everything handed to them on a silver platter and think it's possible for everyone else to have the same.

Well, isn't it? Shouldn't it be? And if you answer both of those questions in the negative, then explain why anyone deserves to "have everything handed to them on a silver platter"?

No and no. Because the government should not have the power to determine who gets what.

It's as easy as that.


If the kids who come here are "spoiled", what word do you use for the bastards who run this shithole of a country?

Right now I call them morons. But that doesn't mean I think the whole system needs to be torn down.

When you have a headache, do you saw your head off?



I'm surprised you didn't throw praying into the mixture...it "works" just as well as your proposed options and requires even less effort.

Prayer has shown to have positive effects.


Since I'm a communist and not a socialist, your comment about the "government taking care of everything" doesn't apply to me.

Yes, I'm afraid it does. You just asked me why everyone shouldn't have everything they want.

The fact is, everyone can only have everything they want for an extended period of time if there is a government to distribute it to them.

That you can't comprehend this fact indicates you should visit a neurologist.


But just "for the sake of argument", why shouldn't the government "take care of everything"? What the fuck are we paying those bastards for?

We are paying those bastards, theoretically, to keep us safe and provide a system where we can use our natural talents and abilities to succeed to the maximum of our potential.


What's that, lackey, go shopping?

Watch dummyvision?

Have some one-on-one face time with "Jesus"?

Those appear to be the three main activities of most Americans these days...definitely a "full life". :lol:

I'd rather be a heroin addict than eat the shit that you consume.

Tell me Red, are you required in the United States to consume any of that shit?



I would rather try to do the right thing and fail than try to do the wrong thing and suck-ceed.

You can't do the right thing if it's impossible. You advocate the impossible. Hence you manage to both fail and to do the wrong thing.

I think on some deep level you know you're an idiot.

[Ele'ill]

Right now I call them morons. But that doesn't mean I think the whole system needs to be torn down.

Oil the parts and keep it moving.

[colombiano]

One does NOT have to have been opressed to be a socialist or communist. We see the injustice and poverty throughout the world and feel a need for change! Unlike yourself we can NOT simply turn a blind eye to it .

[LSD]

Oil the parts and keep it moving.

Brilliant!

Gradualism, eh?

You and Stonewall Jackson would've been best of pals.

[Ele'ill]

If you don't like the color that's painted on your apartment complex, you don't tear the whole thing down. You simply repaint a little. A lot of work goes into it, but did you think it would be easy? Take breaks every now and then, make sure to stretch and for shit's sake drink a lot of water.

[LSD]

If you don't like the color that's painted on your apartment complex, you don't tear the whole thing down. You simply repaint a little. A lot of work goes into it, but did you think it would be easy? Take breaks every now and then, make sure to stretch and for shit's sake drink a lot of water.

Really into the metaphor "thing" aren't we?

hmmm, let me try to explain this simply...

Capitalism doesn't have problems, it is the problem.

It is theoretically and foundationally flawed. Your "lick 'a paint, lick 'a paint" approach is clearly the safer route, but it is ultimately pointless.

[Ele'ill]

My point would be, if you tear the whole thing down because YOU do not like the color. Many people, not pro not anti capitalists would be affected. What right to you have to wield that power over them? To choose for the masses is to assume power over them. Repainting would be the more logical thing to do. There hasn't been any true revolutionary steps taken in america recently. Not an excuse to simply give up, however maybe an opportunity to discover other avenuse of 'victory'. Or atleast accomplish some change along the way.

[redstar2000]

Originally posted by t_wolves_fan
I think on some deep level you know you're an idiot.

In your case, it's right out on the surface and plain for all to see.

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/123.gif

[Xvall]

If you don't like the color that's painted on your apartment complex, you don't tear the whole thing down. You simply repaint a little. A lot of work goes into it, but did you think it would be easy? Take breaks every now and then, make sure to stretch and for shit's sake drink a lot of water.

My point would be, if you tear the whole thing down because YOU do not like the color. Many people, not pro not anti capitalists would be affected. What right to you have to wield that power over them? To choose for the masses is to assume power over them. Repainting would be the more logical thing to do. There hasn't been any true revolutionary steps taken in america recently. Not an excuse to simply give up, however maybe an opportunity to discover other avenuse of 'victory'. Or atleast accomplish some change along the way.

I understand what you are saying, entirely - but you seem to have gotten things mixed up a little.

We don't dislike the color painted on our apartment complex. The way that the apartment looks isn't our problem. Our problem is the way that the apartment complex is. The entire structure of the foundation has holes in it. The apartment itself is crumbling, and if we do not raze the structure to the ground and rebuild it sometime soon, it will collape on all of us — it will be a hell of a lot more painful that way too. One way or another, the apartment is going down - there is no question about it. We are simply trying to take the less devestating route by getting everyone out of the apartment, and rebuilding it together. Of course, we can also just let it collapse, and those of us with the common sense to stay away from it in the first place will rebuild it ourselves, albiet more problematically.

[Xvall]

We repaint when we have elections, by the way. On the outside it looks a little different, but when it really boils down to it, it's still the grimy, ugly, fucked-up apartment that it always was.

[Ele'ill]

We don't dislike the color painted on our apartment complex. The way that the apartment looks isn't our problem. Our problem is the way that the apartment complex is.

blah you've taken this the wrong way ;) I didn't mean to use the paint as an example of LOOKS I ment the paint is simply one thing wrong with the apartment. It wasn't an EXACT comparison. I simply meant, if there are decent aspects to the system, leave them be, target what needs to be changed. DIRECT action. Literally.

[redstar2000]

Originally posted by Mari3L
I simply meant, if there are decent aspects to the system, leave them be...

Such as?

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/123.gif

[Ele'ill]

As of right now, there isn't civil war. That is a good aspect. I would think if there was a revolution, and it's objective was a complete tear down of the system, there would be two sides. If you note certain areas of the system that need change, you target it. And only it. One at a time, you start to change things. I believe a complete tear down of the system would only cause uneeded deaths, open the country up to invasion or harsher rulers, current system regains power however the state has taken an economic hit, a depression sets in ..ect
the decent aspects are more of what isn't happening than what actually is. Maybe I mis-wrote. I apologize for the illusion that I was uplifting the current system. That was not my direct intent.

EDIT:
I simply meant, if there are decent aspects to the system, leave them be, target what needs to be changed

You seem to enjoy only quoting half of my sentences when the other half actually influences it as a whole. You did this in another post as well. I am on to you however ;)

alright final edit I hope, I know an issue would be well answer the question that was presented, What are these freedoms, they are freedoms that will be there for us even in other systems, the constitution, ect..not the literal consitution but I think my point is clear. However, if a complete tear down occurs, there is no way to know what type of government will take it's place. (if a government takes it's place) It is a very risky thing to do. This was my main point.

[redstar2000]

Revolutions are indeed "risky".

Trying to change "one thing at a time" is just silly.

Any change that you might manage to achieve would simply be undermined by the totality of the rest of the system.

Workers in the U.S. won the right to organize free trade unions in 1937; by 1949, so many legal constraints had been placed on them that the "right to organize" became largely meaningless...as it is today.

40-hour work-week? Meaningless.

Over-time pay? Meaningless.

Social security? Soon to be phased out.

Your perspective is incomprehensible...like your strange "moral code".

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/123.gif

[Ele'ill]

My codes, and beliefs have not neccisarily been displayed yet. I use this forum to question similar thinkers to see how they respond.

Mind you I am not against a revolution, and total dissasemblement of centralized state power. I just would like to know who is doing the dissasembling, and how they are going about doing it. So I ask questions and aggrivate on occasion to get a significant answer.

[Individual]

:unsure:
Through the DMCA they disallowed my right to do whatever I want with my so-called private property.

Had you said .. private property?

What is the complaint then? Communists and private property? :unsure:

[Professor Moneybags]

Originally posted by [email protected] 20 2005, 05:14 AM
Social security? Soon to be phased out.
:lol: If only.

[redstar2000]

I guess we lost t_wolves_fan...but I'll go ahead and post this one anyway.


Off Duty U.S. Customs officer shoots unarmed 19-year old Arab-American in head and face.

Early in the morning on Saturday February the 6th around 1:30 am, Bassim Chmait along with three other friends were walking through an apartment complex heading towards a college house party. As they were walking through the apartment complex one of the neighbors threw a soda can at them from above. In frustration, one of the young boys threw the can into the street, and continued walking down the pathway of the apartment heading to the party. At that point Douglas Bates, an off duty U.S. Custom's officer, left his home with his badge in hand and gun drawn confronting the group of 4 to 6 friends. . he started to yell at them, and when the group of boys turned around, they saw the provoker yelling at them about laughing and being too loud, he was heading towards them pointing his gun a them with a badge in the other hand, yelling "You don't want to fuck with a cop, do you?" Apparently he was upset at the noise and commotion. Mr. Bates then pistol whipped one member of the group. The aggressor was an off duty border patrol/homeland security officer who was not in uniform, his name is Douglas Bates. The four unarmed boys were questioning him, asking why he was pointing his gun at them and begging him to put it down. One of the four boys that were there kept asking the gunman to stop pointing the barrel of the gun in his friends direction. Because of that, the aggressor pistol-whipped his friend on the forehead w/ the gun. Anticipating that the provoker was going to hit his friend again Chmait Bassim got in front of his friends telling the man to please put the gun down. Almost instantly the off duty cop shot Bassim in the head and face by Douglas Bates. After shooting Bassim, Mr. Bates simply walked back into his apartment. While friends were screaming for Bassim and neighbors dialed 911. About 5 minutes later the murder opened his door, with the gun still in hand and yelled at neighbors to shut up, and he want back inside his apartment.

This story comes straight from four witnesses, and neighbors that were there when the murder took place, they saw and heard everything that occurred that night.

You would think that this would be an easy case to prosecute. You would think that Douglas Bates is in jail right now. But he’s not, he’s a free man, he was never arrested, he was never charged, he was never even asked to come to the police station to give a statement. The Orange County Sheriff's Department Spokesman, Jim Amormino stated, "We treated this the same as we would any case. There was no clear evidence of a crime being committed, so there was nothing to book him on."

http://sf.indymedia.org/news/2005/02/1711122.php

Other sources...

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-ag...ack=1&cset=true (http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-agent6feb06,1,5675134.story?ctrack=1&cset=true)

http://www.contracostatimes.com/mld/cctimes/10839269.htm?1c

http://www.ocregister.com/ocr/2005/02/08/s...icle_402241.php (http://www.ocregister.com/ocr/2005/02/08/sections/local/local/article_402241.php)

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2005/2/8/125420/3042

How many unarmed and defenseless civilians are murdered by American police & paramilitaries every day?

No one knows...except the number is certainly greater than zero.

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/123.gif

[Ele'ill]

There are some unstable individuals in the world. This particular type of event would happen under any form of government. Possibly less often yes but it would still occur.

[colombiano]

How have you been oppressed?


With this question You have clealry brought light to the differences we share. You are asking "How have you been opressed"
You are Trying to reduce it to an Individual problem. You are thinking in the I or the Me which is very typical of individualistic cappies.
ex:1. How does this affect ME?
2. What most benefits ME?
3. What is in it for ME?
Where as Communists and Socialists think in the Collective WE. WE do NOT have to be opressed to take note of the injustice in society and try and work for a better LIFE and WORLD for ALL people.
ex: 1.What is best for US as a Collective Group?
2. How can We provide for the well being of OTHERS.
It has NOTHING to do with ME.
For Example:When I go to Colombia and see small children in the streets sniffing glue to push away their hunger.It awakens something in me ,I feel that we as Humans should sacrifice our own lives for the well being of all humans.

Just thought I would point this out.

[Ele'ill]

We wasn't arguing whether or not any of us care about oppression in the world, he was asking if we have been oppressed here on american soil. Pointless question in my opinion as it proves nothing.

[DarkAngel]

Nobodies seen oppressed untill they&#39;ve attended a Public NY High School..... <_<

[t_wolves_fan]

Originally posted by redstar2000+Feb 18 2005, 05:33 AM--> (redstar2000 @ Feb 18 2005, 05:33 AM)
t_wolves_fan
I think on some deep level you know you&#39;re an idiot.

In your case, it&#39;s right out on the surface and plain for all to see.

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/123.gif [/b]
Coming from a person with your intellectual honestly and capacity, I take that as a compliment.

[redstar2000]

Ah, back with us again. Ok, here&#39;s another one for you...


Brooklyn&#39;s Abu Ghraib

Some prisoners held at Brooklyn&#39;s federal Metropolitan Detention Center say they were abused by guards.

Defense attorneys call it Brooklyn&#39;s Abu Ghraib. On the ninth floor of the federal Metropolitan Detention Center in Sunset Park, terrorism suspects swept off the streets after the Sept. 11 attacks were repeatedly stripped naked and frequently were physically abused, the Justice Department&#39;s inspector general has found.
The detainees - none of whom were ultimately charged with anything related to terrorism - alleged in sworn affidavits and in interviews with Justice Department officials that correction officers:

Humiliated them by making fun of - and sometimes painfully squeezing - their genitals.

Deprived them of regular sleep for weeks or months.

Shackled their hands and feet before smashing them repeatedly face-first into concrete walls - within sight of the Statue of Liberty.

Forced them in winter to stand outdoors at dawn while dressed in light cotton prison garb and no shoes, sometimes for hours.

The Justice Department&#39;s inspector general has substantiated some of the prisoners&#39; allegations - and some incidents were captured on videotape. But the Justice Department has declined to prosecute any federal correction officer at MDC.

"I was informed the videos amounted to nothing more than shoving, but no serious injuries," said one Justice Department official, who would speak only on condition he not be identified.

But Inspector General Glenn Fine, whose staff reviewed 380 MDC videotapes, reported in 2003 that "These tapes substantiated many of the detainees&#39; allegations." Furthermore, the officers were not just a few bad apples but "a significant percentage of those who had regular contact with the detainees," Fine wrote last March.

http://nyc.indymedia.org/newswire/display/142223/index.php -- emphasis added.

I surmise from the context that the bourgeois newspaper referred to is The New York Daily News.

By the way, what happened to all your fellow PWers? Looks like they&#39;ve left you to battle the international communist conspiracy all by yourself.

Slackers&#33;

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/123.gif

[t_wolves_fan]

Originally posted by [email protected] 22 2005, 04:42 PM
Ah, back with us again. Ok, here&#39;s another one for you...


Brooklyn&#39;s Abu Ghraib

Some prisoners held at Brooklyn&#39;s federal Metropolitan Detention Center say they were abused by guards.

Defense attorneys call it Brooklyn&#39;s Abu Ghraib. On the ninth floor of the federal Metropolitan Detention Center in Sunset Park, terrorism suspects swept off the streets after the Sept. 11 attacks were repeatedly stripped naked and frequently were physically abused, the Justice Department&#39;s inspector general has found.
The detainees - none of whom were ultimately charged with anything related to terrorism - alleged in sworn affidavits and in interviews with Justice Department officials that correction officers:

Humiliated them by making fun of - and sometimes painfully squeezing - their genitals.

Deprived them of regular sleep for weeks or months.

Shackled their hands and feet before smashing them repeatedly face-first into concrete walls - within sight of the Statue of Liberty.

Forced them in winter to stand outdoors at dawn while dressed in light cotton prison garb and no shoes, sometimes for hours.

The Justice Department&#39;s inspector general has substantiated some of the prisoners&#39; allegations - and some incidents were captured on videotape. But the Justice Department has declined to prosecute any federal correction officer at MDC.

"I was informed the videos amounted to nothing more than shoving, but no serious injuries," said one Justice Department official, who would speak only on condition he not be identified.

But Inspector General Glenn Fine, whose staff reviewed 380 MDC videotapes, reported in 2003 that "These tapes substantiated many of the detainees&#39; allegations." Furthermore, the officers were not just a few bad apples but "a significant percentage of those who had regular contact with the detainees," Fine wrote last March.

http://nyc.indymedia.org/newswire/display/142223/index.php -- emphasis added.

I surmise from the context that the bourgeois newspaper referred to is The New York Daily News.

By the way, what happened to all your fellow PWers? Looks like they&#39;ve left you to battle the international communist conspiracy all by yourself.

Slackers&#33;

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/123.gif
Again, this is insufficient evidence to back up your claim that every single altercation between the police and protesters was instigated by the police.

Frankly it&#39;s an assertion that is impossible to prove. Unless of course you have videotape of every single incident.

You don&#39;t have that, do you RedStar?


And since you will now ignore my basic point - either because you&#39;re too fucking stoopid to understand what it is, or because you know you can&#39;t prove your assertion - you&#39;ll respond by telling me that my response proves I don&#39;t care about police misconduct. It would be a logical fallacy, which seems to be God&#39;s role for you in life. That&#39;s fine because your idiocy makes me laugh.

If found guilty, I hope those cops spend the rest of their lives in prison. Frankly I also hope they enjoy some of the same abuse they dished out.


Dance, jester. Dance.


:lol:

[redstar2000]

Originally posted by t_wolves_fan
If found guilty, I hope those cops spend the rest of their lives in prison. Frankly I also hope they enjoy some of the same abuse they dished out.

They will not be "found guilty" because they will not be charged.

You know I put that in bold-face in my post just so you wouldn&#39;t miss it...but you did anyway.

Figures.

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/123.gif

[t_wolves_fan]

Originally posted by redstar2000+Feb 22 2005, 05:05 PM--> (redstar2000 @ Feb 22 2005, 05:05 PM)
t_wolves_fan
If found guilty, I hope those cops spend the rest of their lives in prison. Frankly I also hope they enjoy some of the same abuse they dished out.

They will not be "found guilty" because they will not be charged.

You know I put that in bold-face in my post just so you wouldn&#39;t miss it...but you did anyway.

Figures.

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/123.gif [/b]
Fair enough, I missed that point.

It is a major miscarriage of justice that they won&#39;t face charges. Perhaps they&#39;ll face them locally?

However, despite the miscarriage of justice here, there is no evidence that those arrested did nothing to deserve being arrested. I&#39;m talking about deserving to be arrested, not deserving to be abused. I hope you catch that distinction. It&#39;s like hoping that terminal cancer will go away or that the Brewers will win the World Series, but then hope is all we have, right?

Now would you like to respond to my point about how you&#39;ve failed like a one-legged cat trying to bury shit on a frozen pond, to prove your assertion.

[Professor Moneybags]

What happened to my posts. Have they been deleted ?

[colombiano]

Originally posted by Professor [email protected] 22 2005, 09:24 PM
What happened to my posts. Have they been deleted ?
I wanted to know the same thing Professor. The thread I started is completely blank now.
HMMMMM :ph34r:

[Intifada]

Server problems.

Look in the tech forum.

[redstar2000]

Originally posted by t_wolves_fan
However, despite the miscarriage of justice here, there is no evidence that those arrested did nothing to deserve being arrested.

Um, yeah. They had brown skin...always a "bad sign", right? And they had funny-sounding Arabic names? No "real American" would have a funny-sounding name, would he?

And some of them were "illegal immigrants"...or at least that&#39;s what the feds claimed. That&#39;s probably about the easiest charge that the feds could "prove"...since all that needs to be done is just destroy their naturalization papers. Any naturalized citizen of the U.S. can be reclassified as an "illegal alien" any time a federal official wants to take the trouble to trash a folder and click their mouse a few times. Probably doesn&#39;t take any longer than it takes me to restrict some cappie to Opposing Ideology. Say...15 seconds?


Now would you like to respond to my point about how you&#39;ve failed like a one-legged cat trying to bury shit on a frozen pond, to prove your assertion.

Nope. But I will toss in a few more stories about oppression as they arise.

Meanwhile, you could start here...

http://www.google.com/search?q=%22police+%...:en-US:official (http://www.google.com/search?q=%22police+%2B+brutality%22&sourceid=mozilla-search&start=0&start=0&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official)

By the way, you need to work a bit on your rhetoric...a one-legged cat on a frozen pond would be dead, not trying to cover up its shit.

We all appreciate a colorful metaphor on this board...but it has to sound plausible to be really funny.

For example, "communism will be a significant force in the United States before the Brewers win the world series."

You get the idea.

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/123.gif

[t_wolves_fan]

But Red, I never refuted your assertion that police brutality exists in the U.S.

I refuted your assertion that every single arrest or incident of violence during a protest was instigated by the police.

Stick to the subject and provide your evidence.

I&#39;m wwwwwwwaaaaaaaiiiiiittttttttiiiiiiiiinnnnnnnnnnnnn nnnnnnggggggg.

[Hiero]

Through the DMCA they disallowed my right to do whatever I want with my so-called private property. For example, when I watch DVDs on my chosen Operating System (Linux) it is technically illegal. The code which decodes them is illegal. The fact that the code can get by region encoding is illegal.

This same legislation stops me from doing things like making legal copies of certain software, games, CDs. It stops me from taking the X-Box that I could have bought, had I had the money, and converting it into a Linux Media Center.

It prevents me from doing a lot of things with the supposed product that are mine.



Since i read this i can&#39;t get it off my mind, it doesn&#39;t sit right with. I think it really shows the ignorance of youth in 1st world countries. In other 3rd world countries people have a better reason and effort for revolution as they are heavly explioted by imperialism.

Now you on the other hand find it neccasary for revolution due to th fact you can&#39;t watch DVDs on your prefered operating system. You think you are explioted because you can&#39;t do what you want with the amazing technology you buy.

The reason you comments iritate me

1) You only have that technology becase of imperialism.
2) People in 3rd world, post Colonial societies dont have any acces to technology that you take for granted.
3) You think copyright laws are part of expliotation.

Im actually surprised that a socialist came up with this reason agaisn&#39;t modern capitalism before a capitalism supporter did. This more contradicts capitalism in the sense of the liberalism it was found on in 17th 18th 19th centuary philosophy. In that people like Locke talked about property and private property and the all rights of the property in hands of the owner once transaction is complete. Meaning once someone buys a product he can do anything he wants with it as long as it doesn&#39;t effect other individuals rights

[redstar2000]

Originally posted by t_wolves_fan
I refuted your assertion that every single arrest or incident of violence during a protest was instigated by the police.

How? You&#39;d have to find at least one clear-cut example of some demonstrators who suddenly launched an unprovoked attack on the police.

Does that make sense to you? Unarmed civilians violently attacking the police "out of nowhere"?

Picture it&#33; A whole bunch of people marching down the street...and suddenly they pull out their Glocks and open fire on the police. (&#33;&#33;&#33;)

Or they pull out their concealed baseball bats and start flailing away at the pigs. (&#33;&#33;&#33;)

I cannot deny that perhaps at some time or some place that may have happened...but I&#39;ve never heard of such a thing.

It would be "man bites dog".

Quite the contrary, every protest I&#39;ve ever been in and every one I&#39;ve ever read about, the violence was a consequence of police attack.

I daresay that&#39;s certainly what happened in the example you originally put forward.

1. People tell the pigs what they think of them.

2. Pigs get violent.

3. People fight back.

Even step one is not really necessary...there are plenty of cases where the police just attacked, period.

When you stop and think about it, that&#39;s the only framework that makes any sense. Who wants to physically take on an armed gang of large uniformed thugs? Who actually goes on a demonstration with the idea that "I&#39;m going to kick some pig ass today"?

Especially these days...when arrest means torture or worse?

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/123.gif

[Ele'ill]

Does that make sense to you? Unarmed civilians violently attacking the police "out of nowhere"?

Picture it&#33; A whole bunch of people marching down the street...and suddenly they pull out their Glocks and open fire on the police. (&#33;&#33;&#33;)

Or they pull out their concealed baseball bats and start flailing away at the pigs. (&#33;&#33;&#33;)

I cannot deny that perhaps at some time or some place that may have happened...but I&#39;ve never heard of such a thing.

Unarmed civilians violently attacking police out of nowhere? No, you are correct. Hundreds of angry unarmed civilians converging into the street? Different story.
I can find plenty of pictures and videos of protesters with pieces of wood, molotovs (not in the us as much) broken stuff, rocks, bottles, stuff that&#39;s on fire, fists, kicking, ect. There are always a few people throwing things, kicking the police line, swearing at the police line, rocks, bottles flying everywhere and this prompts the police, who see it as a mob all engaging in these activities, to charge and start beating and arresting people. I would say the police use excessive force on protesters that are locked down, pepper hose in the face, kneeing in the back ect.. however I wouldn&#39;t target the police as much as the person/laws that enable them to legally do this.

[The Garbage Disposal Unit]

But what, Mari3l, is the origin of those laws? It is the rule of force, plain and simple. If you are going to defend the best-dressed (and armed&#33;) gang in the world, and their right to exercize violence (based on their ability to secure a monopoly on that violence), isn&#39;t it the similar right of anybody with the means to do so to start capping cops as they see fit?
See, that doesn&#39;t fly with me. The ability to do violence (as in law) ought not be the legitimizing factor of that violence - unless one gets a kick out of chaos. I don&#39;t.

As the sensible contrast, I see violence against police as legitimate self-defense against existing structures of violence - an unfortunate necessity until systems based on the law of the [billy-]club can be struck down and abolished.

[Danton]

On internet websites by overzealous klansmen, the cat is outta the bag, repeat, the cat is outta the bag, we are compromized...

[t_wolves_fan]

Originally posted by redstar2000+Feb 23 2005, 03:16 PM--> (redstar2000 &#064; Feb 23 2005, 03:16 PM)
t_wolves_fan
I refuted your assertion that every single arrest or incident of violence during a protest was instigated by the police.

How? You&#39;d have to find at least one clear-cut example of some demonstrators who suddenly launched an unprovoked attack on the police.

[/b]
You don&#39;t get it, Red.

I asked you if you thought each and every incident of violence between protesters and the cops was the cops&#39; fault. You said yes.

Therefore, you were the one making the assertion, which I asked you to prove.

You haven&#39;t done it, which makes sense, because it&#39;s an impossible assertion to prove. I hope you grasp why that is the case.

Now you&#39;re taking the failure&#39;s way out by turning it around on me; you&#39;re claiming I&#39;m the one who made the assertion and claiming I can&#39;t prove it.

The funny thing is, even as you turn this on me to mask your own failure, I can back up my argument. (http://www.notbored.org/seattle.html)

Christ, these guys are even advocating violence against fellow anti-globalization protesters&#33;&#33;

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[redstar2000]

That link was certainly not what I expected from you.

I thought it would be something along the lines of "protesters attack police without warning"...and instead, I found that the "professional leftist activists" were joining the police in attacking protesters -- who defended themselves against both.

Possibly the phrase "professional leftist activists" was confusing to you.

So I will explain (or try to).

Historically, as now, there have been those who claimed to be "opponents" of the existing social order but who have acted otherwise.

The "anarchists" who told us to "vote for Kerry" would be a good example of that.

Evidently, this happened in Seattle in the course of the events there. Some kids "broke the glass of the ruling class" and the "big shots" (or "professional leftist activists") who were "in charge" of the protests sided with the police in defense of corporate property.

The word "professional" is particularly appropriate; these people have found a way to "make a living" as a kind of "loyal opposition" to the despotism of capital. The last thing they want to see is a real revolution; they hate genuine popular resistance like Bush "hates the Devil".

Police violence is fine with them; the more the better. All they want (besides their regular paychecks) is the opportunity to pose as "serious, responsible critics" of public policy...a slot on the Sunday pundit dummyvision circuit, the chance to get paid for writing op-ed pieces in the Washington Post, a book contract, etc.

Their following, such as it is, is perfectly glad to help the police as a step along their hero&#39;s road to eminence.

It is unfortunate that such vile parasites plague our movement...and we do what we can to reduce or eliminate their influence.

But ultimately, you must put the blame for them squarely on the capitalist class. That&#39;s who, directly or indirectly, signs their paychecks.

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/123.gif

[t_wolves_fan]

The anarchists still advocated violence, which proves my point.

As for your tirade against professional protesters, I couldn&#39;t agree more.

:o

[Ele'ill]

But what, Mari3l, is the origin of those laws? It is the rule of force, plain and simple. If you are going to defend the best-dressed (and armed&#33;) gang in the world, and their right to exercize violence (based on their ability to secure a monopoly on that violence), isn&#39;t it the similar right of anybody with the means to do so to start capping cops as they see fit?

I suppose in the natural world, comparing all animals and their behavior, when an attack is issued, it is responded with a show of force. Humans are more complex. There is reasoning behind actions and other humans understand this, and form an opinion on it. So I would say no. The issue isn&#39;t revenge, or equal retaliatory show of force, it&#39;s whether or not anyone has the right to kill. In terms of violence, I do not believe violence should currently be embraced and used for an ideological purpose.

[redstar2000]

Man Tasered By Police In Salad Bar Dispute

AURORA, Colo. -- Aurora police have reviewed a weekend incident in which a man accused of stealing salad from a Chuck E. Cheese salad bar was hit with a stun gun twice by officers and said that proper procedures were followed.

"They beat this man in front of all these kids then Tased him in my sister&#39;s lap," Mayo told the newspaper. "They had no regard for the effect this would have on the kids. This is Chuck E. Cheese, you know."

Gale&#39;s two children were "screaming and hollering and crying" as Gale was tasered two times with the stun gun.

Police arrested Gale as his children and other customers and their children watched. They took him outside, leaving his children inside the restaurant.

http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/4242058/detail.html

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/123.gif

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

So when you argue with a pig, you get 50,000 volts? Smells like freedom to me&#33; Or is it charred flesh? :angry:

[Wolnosc-Solidarnosc]

"According to witnesses (Gale) refused to cooperate with police and a struggle ensued," said Larry Martinez, a police spokesman. He said that Gale became argumentative and shoved one of the officers, a fact disputed by another patron."

So... one person saw it happen differently as opposed to the other witnesses who were strangely never questioned for this article.

Here&#39;s what I get from reading it. For some reason, a guy takes his kids to Chuck-e-Cheese and without paying or anything decides to load up on food. He then refuses to show that he in fact paid for it. He refuses to go outside or settle the matter in private. He does not cooperate with management or the police (the details of which were efficiently generalized). The people around them saw him agitating the police. One person was shocked about the incident. This article is too vague for my liking.

The cops had a legit reason to be there. My problem with this article is that it fails to specify exactly how he resisted the police. Whether it was or wasn&#39;t police brutality is dependant on that question.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Regardless, Gale was far from violent. If he did push a police officer, it was doubtless because the cop got too close. When confronting someone who is adgitated, the considered response is not to go within arm&#39;s reach. It sounds to me like some stupid gung-ho cop thought himself big and tough and decided to give Gale a close range grilling to look good. When Gale took offence to this incursion into his personal space, the cop was outraged that this stupid civvie had pushed him in public and decided to up the ante. I think it also counts as &#39;excessive force&#39; but good luck trying to get a conviction.

[Ele'ill]

Regardless, Gale was far from violent. If he did push a police officer, it was doubtless because the cop got too close

Doubtless?

[Wolnosc-Solidarnosc]

Whether or not he was violent comes down to which eye-witness testimony you believe. This is why I find this article questionable because only one civilian witness was questioned. Considering this guy was agitated, given the circumstances the cops may have been justified in getting in close, given that they were in an establishment filled with kids and given that the guy absolutely refused to leave or settle the issue in private. Again, it&#39;s difficult to judge from this article alone.

[Hodgeh]

Originally posted by [email protected] 4 2005, 10:00 PM
Regardless, Gale was far from violent. If he did push a police officer, it was doubtless because the cop got too close. When confronting someone who is adgitated, the considered response is not to go within arm&#39;s reach. It sounds to me like some stupid gung-ho cop thought himself big and tough and decided to give Gale a close range grilling to look good. When Gale took offence to this incursion into his personal space, the cop was outraged that this stupid civvie had pushed him in public and decided to up the ante. I think it also counts as &#39;excessive force&#39; but good luck trying to get a conviction.
Then Gale merely needs to ask the officer to step back, not escalate the situation further by shoving a Cop.

What would you have done if you were the cop and been shoved back, assuming you dceided to be a badass and get in Gale&#39;s face?

[Ele'ill]

When two people or groups of people act irrational, and one person or group gets the worst of it, there are no winners, victims or heros.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Then Gale merely needs to ask the officer to step back, not escalate the situation further by shoving a Cop.

Yes because Cops are special people who should not be touched by ordinary mortals. :rolleyes:


What would you have done if you were the cop and been shoved back, assuming you dceided to be a badass and get in Gale&#39;s face?

What I or anybody else on this board for that matter would do in that particular situation is irrelevant, I was not there.

[Ele'ill]

Yes because Cops are special people who should not be touched by ordinary mortals.

They are ordinary people, sometimes on a power trip, sometimes in a good mood, some times respectful other times not. If he hadn&#39;t been a cop, and a petty argument manifested, would it have been rational to push another adult in a public area surrounded by kids?

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

They are ordinary people, sometimes on a power trip, sometimes in a good mood, some times respectful other times not. If he hadn&#39;t been a cop, and a petty argument manifested, would it have been rational to push another adult in a public area surrounded by kids?

No... but he wouldn&#39;t have got tasered for it. Most people would back off or push back, and then there would have been a fight but it wouldn&#39;t be one man torturing another, it would be two people slugging it out, a different scenario.

[Ele'ill]

No... but he wouldn&#39;t have got tasered for it. Most people would back off or push back, and then there would have been a fight but it wouldn&#39;t be one man torturing another, it would be two people slugging it out, a different scenario.

There was a fight, the cops won by using what they had. If they weren&#39;t cops and had instead broken this guys jaw, ribs, and left him unconcious, would you still see it as "one man torturing another"? Or as a fight? My point is that this whole situation was handled foolishly by both the police and this guy. There were no victims. There was a confrontation, the guy decided to push, the cops tasered him. Regular situation without police...There was a confrontation, the guy decided to push, he ended up unconcious and later in the hospital.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Just don&#39;t try to tell me that it&#39;s easier to fend off a taser attack than a kick or punch. Most people are pretty helpless at the business end of a taser. Having pain inflicted upon you whitout being able to defend yourself, sounds like torture to me.

[Ele'ill]

Just don&#39;t try to tell me that it&#39;s easier to fend off a taser attack than a kick or punch.

I trained NHB MMA for five(ish) years. Which is irrelevant actually. It would have been easier to avoid a &#39;fight&#39;, whether it be bat, fists, chairs or tasers, had the guy not become physical with another human being. Had he pushed a civilian, they may have killed him; with the intention of killing him.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

The fact of the matter is, someone was tasered. Not hit or killed, but reduced to an animal and at the tender mercies of a filthy pig. Do you condone torture?

[Wolnosc-Solidarnosc]

Whether or not the tasering was necessary depends on how physical or uncooperative the guy was. You&#39;d have to be there to make that call... there&#39;s no way you can tell either way from the article alone.

[Ele'ill]

The fact of the matter is, someone was tasered. Not hit or killed, but reduced to an animal and at the tender mercies of a filthy pig. Do you condone torture?

Which is the same as "he was punched in the face (tasered) knocked unconcious, and kicked several times (reduced to an animal at the tender mercies of another filthy civilian) Do you deny that human aggression is universal?

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Whether or not the tasering was necessary depends on how physical or uncooperative the guy was. You&#39;d have to be there to make that call... there&#39;s no way you can tell either way from the article alone.

Tasering is unnecessary period. If you can&#39;t instantly knock someone senseless it&#39;s better to kill them quickly.


Do you deny that human aggression is universal?

No. Do you deny that pigs are fucking class traitors and trained sadists? and do you or do you not condone the torture of human beings?

[redstar2000]

More than you wanted to know about tasers & tasering...


Tasers and Our Fight Against Police Brutality

Take a moment to count five seconds. 1-2-3-4-5. That’s how long a taser usually stuns a person.

We all want the police to stop shooting people. The Taser, providing an alternative to shooting as a means to incapacitate an individual, is said to decrease police shootings. However, knowing that police are capable of abusing any means they have to control people, we need to be aware of some of the factors involved with the Taser that the media and the police department won’t share with the public.

Some primary concerns:

- Police departments that use tasers do not necessarily shoot less people due simply to the Taser.

- While in many cases the number of police shootings decreases when tasers are introduced to a police department, use-of-force incidents (police brutality) tend to significantly increase.

- Police department policies and training on tasers vary greatly from department to department. Some find it acceptable for a taser to be used on an individual who is passively resisting, while others require officers to use it only in situations where it is acceptable for officers to use a gun.

- Unarmed and non-threatening people have been tased simply for walking or running away from the police, not following a command quickly enough, for being loud, etc. Several people have been tased while already hand-cuffed.

- Non-threatening people who are mentally ill or disturbed have been tased. Children and the elderly have been tased. Pregnant women have been tased. People with heart conditions and epilepsy have been tased. Several people have died after being tased.

More...

http://nyc.indymedia.org/newswire/display/143490/index.php

Also see the Amnesty International report...

http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGAM...open&of=ENG-USA (http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGAMR511392004?open&of=ENG-USA)

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/123.gif

[redstar2000]

Taser Torture Again...


Cop Uses Taser Gun On Man Who Refused Urine Sample

Man Was Strapped To Hospital Bed

http://www.local6.com/news/4267905/detail.html

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/123.gif

[workersunity]

is this freedom?

http://www.mapinc.org/norml/v04/n1394/a10.html?157932

Freedom just isnt for the privileged, freedom should be enjoyed by one and all

[t_wolves_fan]

Originally posted by [email protected] 4 2005, 09:47 PM
So when you argue with a pig, you get 50,000 volts? Smells like freedom to me&#33; Or is it charred flesh? :angry:
I seriously doubt the commitment to freedom of someone who says things like this:


"We destroy religion&#39;s public presence,we destroy all overtly religious buildings and monuments (Except of course, things like the pyramids and the aztec temples - they are dead religions and have no relevance)
Things we do NOT do are kill individual believers, but some more obnoxious clergy may get the chop anyway.
We use peer pressure to stop committing &#39;acts of faith&#39; in public in the same way we use societal pressure to stop people dropping their trousers and taking a shit in the High Street.

This combined with the &#39;secularisation&#39; of religious texts; all copies to stop being made and the only copies thereafter being produced should be bristling with notes and footnotes, like the Skeptic&#39;s annotated bible

No more religious artefacts to be produced using public resources, no more public ceremonies, no more donation drives, and congregations to be kept out of the public eye."

A few examples of cops tazering people is evidence of systematic oppression by one system, but killing clergy, destroying religious buildings and prohibiting public religious expression is a "commitment to freedom".

You&#39;re pretty fucking stupid, and your parents were obviously failures. You do realize that, right?

[guerillablack]

Excellent thread. ALot of people claim the government oppresses them, however, can&#39;t say how.

[t_wolves_fan]

No way, man. It&#39;s like a real drag to have to get a job and not smoke weed all day.

http://theonion.com/images/static/character4.jpg

[workersunity]

did you even read the article, nope you didnt, so read it then post something worthwhile

[colombiano]

After all, examples from Nazi Germany or Fascist Italy are plentiful, what similar events have happened to you here in the States?

Nazi Germany oppressed enemies of the state . The same can be said for THE U&#036;A. Has the U&#036;A gassed 6 million jews? No
However they have murdered and munipulated to serve their own best interests. I would also consider modern day slavery on US time a form of opression.

[t_wolves_fan]

Originally posted by [email protected] 23 2005, 07:17 PM
did you even read the article, nope you didnt, so read it then post something worthwhile
The actions of one group of police in once city do not equate to systematic oppression.

Do you understand that at all?

[colombiano]

The actions of one group of police in once city do not equate to systematic oppression.
Are you asserting that the US is not nor never has systematicaly oppressed people?

[Colombia]

While the US has oppressed people in other countries, I must agree with T Wolves Fan. The American people have rarely been oppressed and when they were, they quickly made change by forming unions, protests, etc.

Communism is still the answer to the world though.

[t_wolves_fan]

Originally posted by [email protected] 24 2005, 02:02 PM

The actions of one group of police in once city do not equate to systematic oppression.
Are you asserting that the US is not nor never has systematicaly oppressed people?
Of course not.

Are you asserting it does so now?

Who?

By what means?

[colombiano]

Are you asserting it does so now?

Who?

By what means?
Yes , look no further than Saipan a Common Wealth of the United States where modern day slavery is practiced and a blind eye is turned to it for the greater capital gain of Your consumption economy .

[colombiano]

Have you ever read Confessions of an Economic Hitman?
Well I suggest you do .

Link for discussion Source (http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article8171.htm)

One cannot deny that the US has systematicaly and continually oppressed people all over the world in the interest of self-rightous wants and needs.

[t_wolves_fan]

Originally posted by [email protected] 24 2005, 04:25 PM
Have you ever read Confessions of an Economic Hitman?
Well I suggest you do .

Link for discussion Source (http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article8171.htm)

One cannot deny that the US has systematicaly and continually oppressed people all over the world in the interest of self-rightous wants and needs.
I will look into this.

Still, even if everything he says is true, that is an indictment of our political system, not our economic system.

[colombiano]

Still, even if everything he says is true, that is an indictment of our political system, not our economic system.
Actually they both go hand in hand the policies in place and exercised are done so for the economic benfit of the country. I think it polarizes the fact that Capitalism in fact puts more regards in Self serving Capital Profit rather than the effects it has on the people.Just as the example I have provided below.
Also Saipan is another GREAT example. It is a US Common Wealth . This tiny island is home to an abundance of modern day slavery with huge american corporations manufacturing goods there using the "Made In USA " label while human rights violations run rampant.


We could go on and on how the US is quick to pounce on human rights issues of many yet when it comes to China they tend to treat it very delicately (some would even say turning a blind eye) for they don&#39;t want to bite the hand that feeds their consumption economy.


I am about to leave for the weekend so enjoy your weekend ( ALL) and I will check back next week.

[t_wolves_fan]

Originally posted by [email protected] 24 2005, 06:14 PM



Actually they both go hand in hand the policies in place and exercised are done so for the economic benfit of the country. I think it polarizes the fact that Capitalism in fact puts more regards in Self serving Capital Profit rather than the effects it has on the people.Just as the example I have provided below.

That&#39;s a fair enough criticism of U.S. policy, but is hardly a good enough reason to scrap capitalism.



We could go on and on how the US is quick to pounce on human rights issues of many yet when it comes to China they tend to treat it very delicately (some would even say turning a blind eye) for they don&#39;t want to bite the hand that feeds their consumption economy.

Are you under the impression that every problem can be fixed with arm twisting? Did you start fights with the offensive linemen from the football team in high school?



I am about to leave for the weekend so enjoy your weekend ( ALL) and I will check back next week.

Even me?

:o

[colombiano]

Are you under the impression that every problem can be fixed with arm twisting? Did you start fights with the offensive linemen from the football team in high school?
Yeah



Even me?

I may disagree with you and yes if you and I ever met I may even really dislike you, But that does not mean I am a complete a&#036;&#036;hole.

[Ele'ill]

I like this thread. ;)