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enigma2517
7th February 2005, 01:44
I recently had a discussion with my father about the allocation of human resources in a communist society. People would do things they like to do, not things they had to do to make a living, and thus would be more efficient and energetic in doing so, reducing the actual amount of hours required to produce a necessary surplus for the rest of society.

Now my dad's a pretty smart guy. Unlike silly cappie's who throw the argument "why would somebody waste time to study to become a doctor when they could just be a janitor". He realizes that the fun and respectful job positions would almost always be taken. The opposite question comes up, Who Will Clean the Sewers?

Incidently, Redstar2000 has already written an article by the same name...I used that along with some other things as the basis for my argument, so RS if you yourself could respond to this I'd appreciate it.

There are basically two ways of dealing with unpleasant, but, necessary work. First off, we can use innovation and technology to automate certain processes. This is a reality, even in modern capitalist countries the need for unskilled labor has been systematically decreasing. Maybe it will get to a point where there is almost none required. But I doubt that a complete elmination is anywhere on the horizon.

The second way is a decision made by a class-conscious society that in order to maintain and run their commune they must divide and split up the "nasty work" so that each individual has to do as little as possible of it. Sounds like a good, egalitarian solution at first, does it not?

However, one deficiancy in this was pointed out to me. Only certain people can become doctors or scientists for example. The amount of resources needed to train these people is huge, at least in comparison to say a janitor or garbageman. Also, it takes a very unique type of person to do this sort of work, while almost anybody can perform custodial duties. Now the point of communism is optimize our human resources and use them in a way that benefits society the most. So, why then would we pull a doctor out of his medical office to go pick up trash off the street? I'm sure that there will almost always be patients waiting to see him, so why would we neglect this person's wonderful abilities to serve society to make him go perform a rather menial task (although, admittingly, an important/essential task just as well)?

I was surprised to hear that this type of solution had been implemented in a rudimentary way in the Soviet Union. My father told me how him and his fellow PhD colleagues had to occassionally stop their work to be driven out the country side and made to harvest potatos (a type of forced volunteerism I guess). He said that the productivity of this type of action was extremely little. Now, given that it was forced on to him by the State, we could assume that individuals who voluntarily make the decision to serve society in this way would be a bit better off (my father was probably grumbling and slacking the entire time). However, you can still see the problem that this presents.

This is where the catch-22 falls in. Either we could have people do this and experience less productivity or we could allow "professionals" or those with skills that are in especially high demand to get some kind of exemption. This, of course, would probably just lead back to classes and capitalism :(.

Lastly, RS mentioned that one possible solution was to give people incentive by putting them at the top of waiting lists for more "scarce" products if they did more dirty work. Once again, it sounds great on the surface, but there are a few nuances. First off, what about the mentally handicapped and generally disabled, who often cannot engage in labor any more complex than picking up trash. They'd be at the top of every list! Also, how would u verify that this person actually worked those hours long and hard. In the workplace, no matter how u work you are still have the same access to your commune's warehouse, so you are inclined to work how you feel like and can honestly relate your performance to others. However, once you throw in "prizes" and "bonuses" people will return to the old capitalist scramble of exploiting the system for their own benefit. We tend to analyze things in a cost oppertunity/benefit way, and simply signing your name saying that you did x amount of dirty work and as a result getting a car or something else thats extremely valuable would seem like a tempting option to even the most otherwise honest and responsible person.

Or maybe I'm just not getting something here?

NovelGentry
7th February 2005, 02:33
So, why then would we pull a doctor out of his medical office to go pick up trash off the street? I'm sure that there will almost always be patients waiting to see him, so why would we neglect this person's wonderful abilities to serve society to make him go perform a rather menial task (although, admittingly, an important/essential task just as well)?

First off, you assume there are patients waiting to see him and that in light of free education and open employment as a doctor there would not be MORE than enough doctors. Secondly, no one is forced to work to begin with. If the doctor spends 5 hours doing work at a hospital and the rest of his time is free time, he may very well voluntarily (through that class consciousness) decide to spend 2 hours helping out with some other job.

It's not that you're taking him out of his job to clean the sewers. He willfully chooses to clean the sewers as it benefits society and he realizes this. Just like I willfully would choose to devote equal portion of my day in labor time to whatever was necessary, be it cleaning sewers or growing food.

It is above and beyond their normal work to society.


He said that the productivity of this type of action was extremely little. Now, given that it was forced on to him by the State, we could assume that individuals who voluntarily make the decision to serve society in this way would be a bit better off (my father was probably grumbling and slacking the entire time). However, you can still see the problem that this presents.

The USSR is a broken model where production was not socialized to begin with. It was controlled by the state and the state was assumed to represent the people.

In light of this, a socialized system would not have people coming to "drive you out to the potatoe field so you could pick potatoes." It would be an act which is determined by you voluntarily or at the very least with your say in the form of a vote.

Also, it's not as if the USSR really had the most advanced means of production in all of it's fields anyway. Nor was a position like "doctor" one that was really as open to all as one would like to think under a socialist society, afterall they still needed to industrialize themselves. Hello 5 year plan.

A country like the US is already industrialized and has already advanced it's means of production beyond the capability of producing surplus.

enigma2517
12th February 2005, 18:49
Just because there is free education and oppertunity doesn't mean that there will be an abundance of doctors. Or good doctors at least. Its still a specific skill which requires an above average amount of intelligence to perform. Not to mention, an interest to begin with. I personally hate needles and the such, so do a large amount of people that I know personally. How can you say with certainty that there will be an ample amount of doctors?

Non-Sectarian Bastard!
12th February 2005, 20:07
A lot of people who would have gone into business motivated by money, would choose different jobs under communism. Plus, billions of people are not even given the possiblity to study to become doctor. This adds all up.

Right_is_right
12th February 2005, 23:56
Let me challenge you communist people on something. Honestly, right now, would you be willing to work for free if all your basic needs were being met?

FeArANDLoAtHiNg
13th February 2005, 00:26
An abundance of doctors resulting from a communist society with free education isn't hard to imagine if you just look at Cuba.

Publius
13th February 2005, 01:08
Except most doctors in Cuba have to do other things like drive cabs to prevent themselves from starving to death in their communist utopia.

Invader Zim
13th February 2005, 01:16
Originally posted by [email protected] 13 2005, 02:08 AM
Except most doctors in Cuba have to do other things like drive cabs to prevent themselves from starving to death in their communist utopia.
While I am no fan of Cuba, or any other failed attempt to implement a socialist system, I have to ask; what evidence do you base your claims on? Other, of course, than your meaningless and dogmatic rhetoric?

dakewlguy
13th February 2005, 01:24
Apart from unskilled labour, few do jobs just for money anyway. Before you can enter a proffession you need to train for it first for some years, meaning most decide what proffession to enter based on what they will enjoy the most.

Publius
13th February 2005, 01:29
Originally posted by [email protected] 13 2005, 01:16 AM



While I am no fan of Cuba, or any other failed attempt to implement a socialist system, I have to ask; what evidence do you base your claims on? Other, of course, than your meaningless and dogmatic rhetoric?

It's pretty simple actually. The government can't provide it's citizens the necessary goods to sustain to life, so they have to resort to the "black market". Doctors end up having to use their cars as taxis merely to stay alive.

http://print.google.com/print?id=qXAPpIP45...f_kiGDWoZO6TKw8 (http://print.google.com/print?id=qXAPpIP45ioC&pg=84&lpg=84&prev=http://print.google.com/print%3Fid%3DqXAPpIP45ioC%26sig%3D_aFexnDHUOp0XpwG _svRII9ua0Q%26ie%3DUTF-8%26q%3Dsix-thousand%26btnG%3DSearch%2Bbook&sig=49dHZfQQdPYAf_kiGDWoZO6TKw8)

and

http://print.google.com/print?id=qXAPpIP45...XpwG_svRII9ua0Q (http://print.google.com/print?id=qXAPpIP45ioC&pg=89&lpg=89&prev=http://print.google.com/print%3Fq%3Dcuba%2Bdoctor%26sig%3D49dHZfQQdPYAf_ki GDWoZO6TKw8%26ie%3DUTF-8%26id%3DqXAPpIP45ioC&sig=_aFexnDHUOp0XpwG_svRII9ua0Q)

both glance over the great health care system of Cuba.

Raisa
13th February 2005, 08:29
Originally posted by [email protected] 12 2005, 11:56 PM
Let me challenge you communist people on something. Honestly, right now, would you be willing to work for free if all your basic needs were being met?
Most people are working for their basic needs to be met now.
So how is that any different?