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monkeydust
6th February 2005, 18:41
I'm aware that many Communist, perhaps rightly, do not view their ideas simply as an "ideology" - in the sense of a set of normative values prescribing "how we should live" - but rather as a set of tools to understand the world, predict the path history is taking and, ultimately, where history will end up.

Supposedly, therefore, communism applies to anywhere where, broadly speaking, society is divided between the owners of capital and the workers. And that is, pretty much, everywhere.

Having seen recent threads regarding the Iraqi "Communist" Party, one might think that yes, the Marxist framework "fits" any society, that it does indeed apply universally wherever economic forces come into play.

But is this really the case?

Marx considered his "world view" to be objective, to apply anywhere and everywhere where the appropriate material conditions exist. But the Marxist's "objective" view of reality is itself undeniably a result of Western cultural ideas, traditions, beliefs and philosophies. Its claims to universality are undermined by its own cultural particularities.

To give one example, the Marxist conception of society posits a clear separation between two economic classes - the bourgoisie and the proletariat. Of course, you can take this and apply it to any economy if you will; but surely what is important when determining how a class will react (based on its "class consciousness") is not merely the observed existence of the class in economic terms, but rather the extent to which that class is actually perceived as a distinct entity by the members within it. The "working class", in this sense, is an entirely Western phenomenon. I find it hard to believe that the poor in, say, Iraq or Pakistan consider themselves "workers" in the way that westerners do and have done in the past.

To give a second example, the Marxist conception of reality relies on a few generally accepted premises that are themsevles, arguably, only Western particularities. One obvious such premise is the idea that everyone works, broadly, on the basis of self-interest. But can the large, interdependent families existent in parts of Asia be said to work on the basis of self interest in the sense that Westerners do? I'm not entrely sure.

To what extent do people here view this as a problem?

Is it the case that people in other parts of the world will inevitably come to abide by the Marxist "laws" of change?

Or is it instead true that Communism could encounter difficulty in applying to certain parts of the world because it is culturally a very much Western, certainly "developed world" ideology?

Thoughts?

redstar2000
7th February 2005, 03:37
It's probably pretty difficult to say what non-western people who would be considered workers by a Marxist actually think about their own class identity...though the spread of trade unions suggests some degree of "working class" consciousness.

Assuming the non-western countries can successfully throw off the yoke of U.S. (and European) imperialism, then I expect them to pass through the same "stages" that the west did...though the forms might be very different.

Hugo Chavez, for example, is Venezuelan, not North American, and his rhetoric and actions fit Venezuelan circumstances, not the North American circumstances of many decades ago.

But I am continually struck by the parallels between Chavez and U.S. president Franklin D. Roosevelt -- both in their own individual ways visionary capitalist reformers.

It will be a long time before communism appears on the horizon in the less developed world -- hell, it will be quite a while before it appears on our horizons for that matter.

Fortunately, a great deal of Marx's writings were focused on the rise of the bourgeoisie and the waning of feudalism...and his "tools" of historical materialism are just as useful in explaining "what's going on" in the non-western countries.

The importance of the "extended family" in non-western societies, for example. We westerners had that too...a long time ago. It succumbed to capitalism here...and it will there as well.

In fact, it's already happening.

So yes, Marxist theory is global...it applies to all forms of class society.

But different parts apply to different times.

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Lamanov
8th February 2005, 00:25
for one, Marxism, as scientific view of the world and phenomena belongs to all mankind, no matter of their counsciousness in any way, social, national, cultural.
then, its very likely that social revolutions in future will burst in the 3rd world, due to the wage slavery polarisation and western corporativism. this would cause a massive blow to the corporate economy and social stability in the west, and the proletarian revolutions in these, 1st world countries, especially thanks to the revolutionary vanguard, would follow the 3rd world.
i dont think there is a shortage of class consciousness. it will not take a long time to focus this consciousness on the class struggle. besides, who knows, maybe some catalist would encourage growth of revolutionary ideology in the 3rd world. maybe growth of the 1st world vanguard or some economic desaster.

Se7en
8th February 2005, 03:52
Originally posted by [email protected] 6 2005, 10:37 PM
So yes, Marxist theory is global...it applies to all forms of class society.

But different parts apply to different times.
that sums it up nicely.

Iepilei
9th February 2005, 10:00
Marxism is really just a scientific look into the progress of human social development. As such, we can anticipate a united socialist (communist, if you will) world in time. However, it's my belief that the revolution which will bring upon this new era must not be rushed; we do not know the form in which the revolution will take.

The industrial revolution was essentially weaponless.