You people never answered my question...

[the RIGHT=FREEDOM]

If capitalism doesn't work, then why are countries like the U.S. and Japan so rich? Well?

[New Tolerance]

I already answered you, they are mixed economy semi-welfare states. (not real capitalist in a universal sense)

Further more, it's not as if the Soviet Union wasn't "rich", it was the 2nd largest economy in the world right before its collapse.

[the RIGHT=FREEDOM]

Originally posted by New [email protected] 5 2005, 04:30 PM
I already answered you, they are mixed economy semi-welfare states.

Further more, it's not as if the Soviet Union wasn't "rich", it was the 2nd largest economy in the world right before its collapse.
That's your asnwer? So you aren't going to try and argue that capitalism doesn't work?

When the Soviet Union did things that you see as good, you embrace it. When it kills countless millions of people, you disown it.

[New Tolerance]

That's your asnwer? So you aren't going to try and argue that capitalism doesn't work?

How the heck am I supposed to argue in the context you've given to me? It doesn't even make any sense. It's like saying: "If communism doesn't work then why is Sweden a 1st world country?". huh? But Sweden IS NOT a communist country.


When the Soviet Union did things that you see as good, you embrace it. When it kills countless millions of people, you disown it.

I never said that being rich is some kind moral high ground, that is I never "embraced it" but merely used it as an example to disprove your statement.

Or are you stating that if you don't support the SU then you must never speak of it again in a debate?

[(R)evolution of the mind]

Originally posted by the RIGHT=FREEDOM+Feb 5 2005, 07:34 PM--> (the RIGHT=FREEDOM @ Feb 5 2005, 07:34 PM)
New [email protected] 5 2005, 04:30 PM
I already answered you, they are mixed economy semi-welfare states.

Further more, it's not as if the Soviet Union wasn't "rich", it was the 2nd largest economy in the world right before its collapse.
That's your asnwer? So you aren't going to try and argue that capitalism doesn't work?
[/b]
Work for whom? The capitalist class and the top managers? The poorest workers in third world countries? The majority of the working class that must endure totalitarianism 8 hours a day, 5 days a week for daily bread and shelter?

[the RIGHT=FREEDOM]

Originally posted by New [email protected] 5 2005, 04:40 PM

That's your asnwer? So you aren't going to try and argue that capitalism doesn't work?

How the heck am I supposed to argue in the context you've given to me? It doesn't even make any sense. It's like saying: "If communism doesn't work then why is Sweden a 1st world country?". huh? But Sweden IS NOT a communist country.


When the Soviet Union did things that you see as good, you embrace it. When it kills countless millions of people, you disown it.

I never said that being rich is some kind moral high ground, that is I never "embraced it" but merely used it as an example to disprove your statement.

Or are you stating that if you don't support the SU then you must never speak of it again in a debate?
Fine, do you think capitalism is a failed econmoic system? Have I worded it better for you now?

[Zingu]

What do you mean as "succeded" or "failed"?

It has failed to give liveable standards of living to billions of people, it has succeded in developing into Imperialism where most of the world is now forced to work in sweatshop conditions and recieve low wages, yes, it has succeded in that sense.

[Non-Sectarian Bastard!]

Actually I do believe that Capitalism "works'. But you have to ask yourself what is the goal of capitalism and are they succeeding in that.

Capitalism is aimed at delivering the bourgeoisie the greatest possible power and wealth. And Capitalism succeeds in that.

Unfortunatly quite some people are disadvantaged by this system and our planet is being destroyed at record speed. And while quite some of you shout "freedom, freedom", this system lets many people chanceless at life.

An interesting thought has come up. If you truely believe that capitalism gives the hard working and smart people what they deserve. Give all your money away, so that you can't benefit from inherited money during this experiment. Move out to the ghetto, get some children and good luck at getting your children into the best schools and making a fortune.

And would this mean that all poor people are dumb and lazy? That non-white people are dumb and lazy from nature? (since they have much less succes in capitalism).

[New Tolerance]

Fine, do you think capitalism is a failed econmoic system? Have I worded it better for you now?

Failed in what sense? If you are talking about strictly as an economic system (that is: a system to generate resources) then it has not failed, it has done that.

But by failed you mean that it is no longer a system truely favour by society then I would have to point out that there has been a slide away from classical capitalism ever since the Great Depression. Many of the Keynesian mechanisms are still in place, such as interest rate adjustment etc.

[Raisa]

"If capitalism doesn't work, then why are countries like the U.S. and Japan so rich? Well?"

I wish I would have seen your question before.

Capitalism works for capitalists, but there are alot of working people in the US who are struggling and poor.
Thats who we are concerned with, the working people....and in order for capitalism to "work" many of them have to be screwed.

[comrade_mufasa]

Originally posted by the RIGHT=FREEDOM+Feb 5 2005, 11:34 AM--> (the RIGHT=FREEDOM @ Feb 5 2005, 11:34 AM)
New [email protected] 5 2005, 04:30 PM
I already answered you, they are mixed economy semi-welfare states.

Further more, it's not as if the Soviet Union wasn't "rich", it was the 2nd largest economy in the world right before its collapse.
That's your asnwer? So you aren't going to try and argue that capitalism doesn't work?

When the Soviet Union did things that you see as good, you embrace it. When it kills countless millions of people, you disown it. [/b]
And when the USA displaced millions of natives on to less then acceptable lands that they still live on today or when the U$ had african slaves that are still slaves to the wage system as are all working class people, I would imagin that you disown those acts. Just to let you know both the displacement of the indians becouse they did not belive in ownership of land and the slavery of africans becouse capitalist have the right of private ownership, are both supported by capitalism.

[the RIGHT=FREEDOM]

Originally posted by comrade_mufasa+Feb 5 2005, 06:33 PM--> (comrade_mufasa @ Feb 5 2005, 06:33 PM)
Originally posted by the [email protected] 5 2005, 11:34 AM

New [email protected] 5 2005, 04:30 PM
I already answered you, they are mixed economy semi-welfare states.

Further more, it's not as if the Soviet Union wasn't "rich", it was the 2nd largest economy in the world right before its collapse.
That's your asnwer? So you aren't going to try and argue that capitalism doesn't work?

When the Soviet Union did things that you see as good, you embrace it. When it kills countless millions of people, you disown it.
And when the USA displaced millions of natives on to less then acceptable lands that they still live on today or when the U$ had african slaves that are still slaves to the wage system as are all working class people, I would imagin that you disown those acts. Just to let you know both the displacement of the indians becouse they did not belive in ownership of land and the slavery of africans becouse capitalist have the right of private ownership, are both supported by capitalism. [/b]
Indians<Manifest Destiny

You can blame the Democratic party for keeping blacks and all other minorities poor in this country. Thye instill in the minds of all minorities that they can&#39;t fend for themselves, that the government will always ben there to pay for things like their medicare and college.

People should be paid in accordance to the quality of their work. If some cashier at a GIANT does a halfass job, is rude to customers, and takes absurdly long breaks, he should indeed be paid mininum wage. If the employee on the other register works hard and is curtious to the customers, that employee will recieve raises, and several chances to be promoted.

[NovelGentry]

If capitalism doesn&#39;t work, then why are countries like the U.S. and Japan so rich? Well?

Rich is a pretty gross monetary term, even if you&#39;re trying to imply wealth in general, then the answer is simple. "They" are so rich, because that is what capitalism does. It generates capital. Whether or not it works is a completely unrelated issue.

If slavery doesn&#39;t work, why does it make cotton plantations so rich?

[STI]

You&#39;re stupid, TR=F.

Whether or not capitalism "works" is debatable. The fact that the USA, Japan, & co. are rich doesn&#39;t make much of a difference, as most of the third world is "capitalist".

The issue we (or at least I) have with capitalism is that it sucks to live in if you&#39;re part of the working class.

[Sirion]

"When the Soviet Union did things that you see as good, you embrace it. When it kills countless millions of people, you disown it."

While the Soviet Union certainly wasn&#39;t communist, if had certain good aspects. Just as USA. Those will be used also in the communist future.

To answer your question, the wealth of those countries (or at least certain persons/corporations in those countries) were built on the backs of the proletariat, especially the proletariat in other countries. Just look at how most of the world today is living in extreme poverty, simply because, to keep the costs down, you also have to keep people working for as little money as possible. If the whole world was as rich, and had the same wages as an american or european worker, we all would afford to buy very little, because everything would be too expensive.

[Invader Zim]

Originally posted by the [email protected] 5 2005, 05:27 PM
If capitalism doesn&#39;t work, then why are countries like the U.S. and Japan so rich? Well?
Capitalism, as in Smith&#39;s ideals, are not in practise.

[Black Radical]

Originally posted by the [email protected] 5 2005, 06:47 PM



Indians<Manifest Destiny

so you are a racist. right wing and racist? who woulda thunk it?


You can blame the Democratic party for keeping blacks and all other minorities poor in this country. Thye instill in the minds of all minorities that they can&#39;t fend for themselves, that the government will always ben there to pay for things like their medicare and college.

Another problem with right-wingers is that you fail to grasp how societies and economic systems function and label everything as a matter of personal choice. Poverty is a social phenomenon. It isn&#39;t just that people made bad decisions and became poor (although like all people, poor people do make bad decisions as well). Most poor people were born poor. Conversely, most rich people were born rich. If only minorities weren&#39;t waiting for handouts they would be rich&#33;&#33;&#33; Come one man, are you serious?



People should be paid in accordance to the quality of their work. If some cashier at a GIANT does a halfass job, is rude to customers, and takes absurdly long breaks, he should indeed be paid mininum wage. If the employee on the other register works hard and is curtious to the customers, that employee will recieve raises, and several chances to be promoted.

People should be able to live decent lives no matter what they do. They should have access to healthcare, higher education, decent housing, and healthy foods, just because they are human beings and they work for a living.

Capitalism is about profit. Capitalism doesn&#39;t really give a fuck about that, as long as a profit is being made. Being courteous, isn&#39;t going to increase profits and therefore wont increase a workers pay. Even if it did increase proftits by having customers come back, it still isn&#39;t going to increase their pay.

Have you ever worked a cash register before? Once again failing to understand how the economy works. People are paid what a boss is willing to pay in proportion to his profit. No amount of quality work at a cash register is going to a cashier big bucks. People should be able to go to college free of charge

[Professor Moneybags]

Originally posted by [email protected] 5 2005, 04:51 PM
It has failed to give liveable standards of living to billions of people,
It&#39;s a failiure because those who haven&#39;t implemented it haven&#39;t benefited from it ? Uh, yeah.

And What exactly is "livable standards" ? You mean everyone in the world had them prior to capitalism ?

[Professor Moneybags]

Capitalism is aimed at delivering the bourgeoisie the greatest possible power and wealth. And Capitalism succeeds in that.

Show me where this is written.


Unfortunatly quite some people are disadvantaged by this system and our planet is being destroyed at record speed.

Yeah, the sky is falling, we know.


An interesting thought has come up. If you truely believe that capitalism gives the hard working and smart people what they deserve. Give all your money away, so that you can&#39;t benefit from inherited money during this experiment. Move out to the ghetto, get some children and good luck at getting your children into the best schools and making a fortune.

There&#39;s just one problem : This isn&#39;t LFC.

[Professor Moneybags]

Originally posted by [email protected] 5 2005, 06:33 PM
Just to let you know both the displacement of the indians becouse they did not belive in ownership of land
Obviously the European invaders didn&#39;t believe in property rights either, so they invaded it.


and the slavery of africans becouse capitalist have the right of private ownership, are both supported by capitalism.

What about the property rights of the africans they enslaved, did they respect those too ?

Violating property rights in the name of property rights ? Sorry, not buying it.

[Professor Moneybags]

People should be able to live decent lives no matter what they do.

But they can&#39;t. Reality won&#39;t let you and a proper socio-economic system won&#39;t either.


They should have access to healthcare, higher education, decent housing, and healthy foods, just because they are human beings and they work for a living.

They should indeed. They should also pay for it; getting it for free suggests that someone people ought to be working for nothing.


Capitalism is about profit. Capitalism doesn&#39;t really give a fuck about that, as long as a profit is being made.

Nice straw man, but that&#39;s not what I, or most others capitalists advocate.


People should be able to go to college free of charge

Which involves either :

A - Enslaving a teacher and forcing him to work for free.

B - Paying the teacher using money forcibly extracted from the taxpayer.

Neither is desirable.

[Anarchist Freedom]

Half the worlds capitalist countries are in terrible shape. Just because a few countries won the game of capitalism doesnt mean its right for everyone.

[the RIGHT=FREEDOM]

Originally posted by Black Radical+Feb 6 2005, 12:10 PM--> (Black Radical &#064; Feb 6 2005, 12:10 PM)
the [email protected] 5 2005, 06:47 PM



Indians<Manifest Destiny

so you are a racist. right wing and racist? who woulda thunk it?


You can blame the Democratic party for keeping blacks and all other minorities poor in this country. Thye instill in the minds of all minorities that they can&#39;t fend for themselves, that the government will always ben there to pay for things like their medicare and college.

Another problem with right-wingers is that you fail to grasp how societies and economic systems function and label everything as a matter of personal choice. Poverty is a social phenomenon. It isn&#39;t just that people made bad decisions and became poor (although like all people, poor people do make bad decisions as well). Most poor people were born poor. Conversely, most rich people were born rich. If only minorities weren&#39;t waiting for handouts they would be rich&#33;&#33;&#33; Come one man, are you serious?



People should be paid in accordance to the quality of their work. If some cashier at a GIANT does a halfass job, is rude to customers, and takes absurdly long breaks, he should indeed be paid mininum wage. If the employee on the other register works hard and is curtious to the customers, that employee will recieve raises, and several chances to be promoted.

People should be able to live decent lives no matter what they do. They should have access to healthcare, higher education, decent housing, and healthy foods, just because they are human beings and they work for a living.

Capitalism is about profit. Capitalism doesn&#39;t really give a fuck about that, as long as a profit is being made. Being courteous, isn&#39;t going to increase profits and therefore wont increase a workers pay. Even if it did increase proftits by having customers come back, it still isn&#39;t going to increase their pay.

Have you ever worked a cash register before? Once again failing to understand how the economy works. People are paid what a boss is willing to pay in proportion to his profit. No amount of quality work at a cash register is going to a cashier big bucks. People should be able to go to college free of charge [/b]
Oh looky, another brainwashed token black leftist who probably refuses to accept the facts that it was the Republican Party that freed your people and got the civil rights passed in the 60&#39;s.

I&#39;m not a racist, I just believe that this nation was destined by God to be great, and the Indians, sadly enough were in the way of that destiny. It would be pretty hard and silly for a half latino homosexual to be racist anyway.

Please, it&#39;s possible for anyone to work their way out of poverty, just because they are born poor doesn&#39;t mean that they have to stay poor. They can get a job, go to college, and make something of themselves.

Being curtious doesn&#39;t increase pay? Hmmmmm, ever heard of TIPS buddy?

Yes I have worked at a cash register before. You gotta be shooting that heorin up right now aren&#39;t you? Either that or you&#39;ve never had a job. People work hard, they get promotions and raises, it kinda happened to me and all my friends at my former job. Hard work is noticed and rewarded because the company recognizes the employee as an asset and wants to keep him or her. If this valuable employee was never given a promotion or raise, they would leave that employer.

No, college should not be free. Neither should Medicare or healthcare, because that would lead to a skyrocketing deficit and huge tax increases. The government should indeed help lower income families pay for college with grants and loans, which is what the Bush Administration is doin now. This Admin. really has been at the center with it&#39;s economic policies so far, I don&#39;t understand why you guys hate it so.