Property Destruction

[RedLenin]

What do you think of propety destruction as a tactic. On one hand, it does cause financial damage to the capitalists. On the other, it provides a very bad image of anarchists as chaos loving terrorists. What do you think?

[Rev. Episkopos Pedero, K.S.C.]

Do whatever you want.

But nobody likes an asshole.

[Ele'ill]

It does nothing. It might seem exciting to be able to stand in the city, in front of a bank for 15 minutes and smash it real nice. The repercussion is you get caught, if not then the media just feeds off it and further pushes for security and how americans should be shitting their pants because this world is so evil that people smash windows. The company's things that you are destroying..windows, benches, corporate art. ect... do you think the multi billion dollar company will so much as flinch at this loss? It benefits them because every time someone smashes a window they have an excuse to increase security, whether it be upped police presence at protests, private security sectors widening, and further media bias against demonstrations. If you're at an anti war protest please don't damage property, or activley engage a police line. If the police go into turbo pms mode as they did in miami at the ftaa protest, then i'd consider self defence. But police are a topic for another thread.

[pedro san pedro]

it is also very easy to cause a company to lose money in a nonviolent manner - which allows the integrity of your message to still be conveyed through the media, and allows a diologue and bargining with the people you are campaigning against. its not too hard to lock down a factory by shutting the gate and locking yourself to it. if you are prepared to get arrested.

however, i would definately recommend you get training before doing so - and there are many organisations and freelancers that specilize in this

[bunk]

It's great and does a lot. Seeing people standing up to capitalism and doing stuff in Seattle, even through the mainstream media brought a lot of people to the cause because they saw people doing stuff. A lot of people know what capitalism does but only see the futility of trying to do anything. Violent massacres of policeman will appeal to people who the police opress.

[RedAnarchist]

I think we need to keep the moral high ground in situations like these - if our side starts the violence, it will be detrimental to the Left, but if they start it, our response will be justified. Allow them to show their true selves instead of giving ourselves a bad name.

[Taiga]

The "Fight Club", right ? ;)

[Anarchist Freedom]

Breaking shit is fun no doubt. But to further a cause its really bad looking unless its like youve won the revolution lets burn the white house kind of good. But thats a whole nother story. I dont think if your trying to show you cause for what it is that breaking a store front is very wise.

[Ele'ill]

Violent massacres of policeman will appeal to people who the police opress.

First of all, no. You are assuming that everyone the police oppress is hungry for violence and bloodshed. Many of the oppressed in this country and this world have seen more war and death than we will in 5 life times. Violent action will cater to a specific crowd, you are correct. However i'd also like to point out that violence will only draw a line in the sand. You will further polarize this country by attacking police and destroying physical property. This country is militarized, and when you go attacking something it has proclaimed precious you will force the general population to take sides, with you or the state. This is true even from a moral perspective and most people will not take the side of the fifteen year old with a mask engaging in what they see as random vandalism. The population is not read up on capitalism and other political systems. You have to slow down and share with everyone, not just those willing to stop and listen. What about those that simply do not know about it? The first thing they will see are masked people -destroying property or as you stated 'massacreing the police'. That would definatley draw positive attention to your political beliefs :rolleyes: . And if you're thinking 'who needs them anyway', there is no way you can do this on your own. It just is not practical.
Cliff Notes:
-Violence will further militarize the state
-Violence will turn people away from your alternative thinking
Killing a cop or two will put you in jail the rest of your life, there won't be men and women in tanks with ak47's rallying behind you. It will be just you and the particular belief system that you hold as truth will be deemed 'terrorist' by the news outlets.

[Dyst]

Too many times, people confuse destructiveness with constructiveness. Let's not feed this confusion by lowering our morals to destroying objects. An object is not simply the result of one man's greed, it is also something that workingmen and women have spent time and energy producing.

[Black Radical]

I think the question really becomes what is you're goal?

Just to hurt an individual capitalist here or there. Smashing property does nothing but smash property. It galvanizes public opinion against you but that is not the main reason not to do it. Being a communist or anarchist is usalyy enough to have people against you.

That is just some bullshit. What was accomplished? Is capitalism any closer to being overthrown?

Have you won any new people to the struggle?

Destroying property and killing cops are likely to get you arrested or killed and it would be all for naught. If you assassinated a cop who killed an unarmed civilian or something, then you could say, I am sending a message to the pigs that ......


Wanton violence is counter-revolutionary. Violence is serious, and should not be done frivolously.

[bunk]

No one was suggesting anything be done for no reason. In case you hadn't noticed most of the world's in a pretty serious situation - living in poverty.

[Lost Avenger]

As we are working towards communism, we must remember that we are still in a capitalist world. That being said, realize that distruction of property will be responded with the repairing of the property. It would cost money to repair the property. That would circulate money, thus supporting the system.

[Michael De Panama]

Originally posted by [email protected] 4 2005, 08:06 PM
It does nothing.
It may do nothing, but neither does picketing, and property destruction is a lot more fun.

[Michael De Panama]

The people in this thread are the reason why there's no change taking place. Fuck pacifists. Win a billion people over to your cause, if their just going to march up and down the streets on a designated date with a permit holding signs with catchy slogans on them, not only will you accomplish nothing, you'll make yourself look like a complete jackass. Congrats!

I'll take violence over some masturbatory demonstration any day.

[Ele'ill]

The people in this thread are the reason why there's no change taking place. Fuck pacifists. Win a billion people over to your cause, if their just going to march up and down the streets on a designated date with a permit holding signs with catchy slogans on them, not only will you accomplish nothing, you'll make yourself look like a complete jackass. Congrats!

I'll take violence over some masturbatory demonstration any day.





Mahatma Gandhi did more through nonviolence than any communist or anarchist attacking a police line at a demonstration. While others are locked down, participating in mass civil disobeidience, you are aggrivating the police by kicking them, throwing stuff, or destroying property. Once again, what has breaking a window done? It has excluded you from a group of like thinkers, essential further isolating you from potential allies. It has gotten you or someone near you attacked by police god help them if they're the peaceful ones locked down and can't escape. I am not saying that violence is not to be used at all, there is a time and a place, N30 stands out because it was successful not because of violence or property destruction but becasue through peaceful means, the meeting/city was shut down. Same thing in San Fransico when the city was shut down. Only very isolated incidents involving violence. There is change taking place, the reason half this country is opposed to bush is because of authors, journalists, reporters and others, digging deep and forcing the truth to the public. Once again, just because you go to a rally and smash something and feel great dosn't mean you're helping your cause. You are infact furthering yourself from it. You are calling the peace movment 'Masturbatory'? You break a window, YOU feel good. Marches and demonstrations with numerous groups united as one marching peacefully against a VIOLENT government system makes a lot more sense than going to protest against a violent government system and using violence yourself. Who are you to decide for this world when violence can and can't be used? That is selfish. In essence you are no better than the capitalists you are protesting against.

[Ele'ill]

Also like to state that the reason nobody should have a right to choose when violence is neccisary is because it is never right. And those marches that are so masturbatory involving permits and times and dates, yeah, that was san franciso, j20 and n30 (aka battle in seattle)

[Emilio]

Its all about your target choices and how you do it.
-Buy a junk car, you can get one for about 300-400 bucks at some places. Park it so its blocking the drive through of a fast food place, (do this at night, its no fun getting caught :ph34r: ) have some frinds help you jack it up and take the tires off, then kick out the jacks. If you do this to a few places it should attract a good amount of attention in the morning, and a car with no weels is VERY hard to move.
------I have even better ones, contact me if you want some bad ass ideas------

[Ele'ill]

What would this do? Nothing anybody has said, actually accomplishes anything.
I don't have the money to buy a car for 300 dollars, let alone to do it a few times. They could trace the title of the car back to you to see who the owner is. the plate, ect.. You could file the reg stuff of, and make it harder to track down but the police will look in the area for car sales ect.. you will get caught, besides, many fast food places are privatley owned, You would only be hurting one person, the owner of that particular store. They may share the same general 'copyright' on the name but that is about it.

[Emilio]

Actually I have done this once, and if you spray a slogan or message on the car, it is almost ciertain to get on the news, property destruction is a means to an end, not an end itself. The end I always go for is maximum attention with minimum impact.

[bunk]

In order to create a revolutionary conditions, groups already sure must start standing up to the state. A good example is Seattle and all the bad media that got but it still attracted more people to anti-capitalism because they saw that people were actually doing stuff other than organized and controlled marches.

[Ele'ill]

so by spraying a car you are sending a positive message to the public, to help them understand your beliefs, and to help them understand the current flaws in a government system? You might was well shit on their windshield. What if that car was owned by someone with similar beliefs? What if they were open minded about change in the world and now they are turned off because of recent sprees of vandilism. Why even go through the trouble of spraying a car and doing something that illegal? Just hang a banner from a bridge over a freeway, or traffic light at a busy intersection. When you destroy something others currently see as 'precious', they are not going to think 'wow, maybe globalization is bad, i'm glad I woke up this morning and found my car spray painted or i'm glad I picked this restraunt to eat at today because it's blocked by a spray painted car'. To think this is insane. If I were to block some place you visit often, or vandalised something you hold dear even with your own propaganda, you'd be upset. Pissing people off is not going to 'convert' them. If you want bees to produce honey, you don't punch a hole in their hive.




In order to create a revolutionary conditions, groups already sure must start standing up to the state. A good example is Seattle and all the bad media that got but it still attracted more people to anti-capitalism because they saw that people were actually doing stuff other than organized and controlled marches.

In order to create revolutionary conditions you have to have enough people on your side of the ideological battle line. It's time we start looking back on N30 as a symbolic stand against capitalism, not an actual example of what to follow. To view it as an example of 'what to do at a protest' would be to insult the significance of the demonstration. Had it not been for the peaceful demonstrators, the small group that was breaking windows and such would have been arrested within minutes. And yes, they did get on the news, is fame all you crave? Is the only reason you want change is to be famous for it? They were on the news because they broke windows, the demonstration was on the news because as a whole, those opposed to the system shut down the meeting and following that, the city.

[bunk]

I don't think you understand how the tactic is used. It's not used on anyone, it's mostly been employed against bosses cars, Mcdonalds and big corporations.

[Ele'ill]

I am very aware how it is used. My posts seem clear enough. Destroying something of someone's is going to draw sympathy not for the one destroying it, but for the victim. Your boss's car? Give it a rest. You don't like your job, leave or organize other employees to file a formal complaint. There are more affective ways to send a message than to destroy something. If it happens once every five years ok great, it's symbolic; as N30 was. If it happens at every protest or every time your boss angers you, it's a cliche act of senseless destruction. Property destruction is not going to make the population think the same as you. And as I said earlier, destroying a mcdonalds window may be fun and be symbolic to you but that is selfish. The company does not flinch at the repair cost. The public thinks, stupid kid threw a rock at a window. Vandilism. And that is where it has ended every single time it has happend. If you are going to do something, make it big, make it nonviolent (nobody injured or killed), do not give your political message in the act. ELF does a great job. Their message is simple. Earth liberation front. Not a clear political message such as 'communist liberation front' or 'anarchist federation' ect ...the media reporting on their massive, destructive yet nonviolent acts has no choice but to report the full story. "Yeah the ELF is..uh..(not communist, not evil anarchists, not teens vandilizing) an enviromental group that acts in cells..." they go on to explain why the ELF targeted the area. They are the only group using a legitimate form of property destruction.

[HardDrive]

It's really kinda simple, Destroy everything you can before a dictator takes control of your huge utopian aspirations. Have fun with another Stalin. Or maybe A Castro is more in order. after all, because he totally abandoned Che in his communist ways, he's obviously the pinnacle of mankind. Che fought for the people, you strange people that want to destroy property in an effort for the government to own your own. The difference between Che and most of you is that you want to revolt to make everything better for you, and also worsen the quality of life for others. Che generally only fought imperialism and opressive governments, ironically allowing Castro to take control and oppress anyways. Re-evaluate, jackasses. I don't ever recall Che actually calling free trade a bad thing, and he certainly didn't envision Cuba as it is now.

Life can be unfair. Get a helmet or get lost.

[Ele'ill]

I tend to agree. This is not trolling, it's constructive criticism. Would any of you die for the starving in the world? Have you even been outside your town? What do the starving care if a masked eightteen year old breaks a window of a mcdonalds in rhode island or anywhere for that matter? You all seem angry and bitter with the current system, possibley rightly so. There is no walking, only mild chit chat about political systems and beliefs and on and on. There comes a time when independant actions mean more than all the forums held in the history of the earth. You all want your own political systems in place, you are no better than the capitalists who want the same thing. It's a funny thing it really is. Anarchists, communists ect.. you all know that power leads to evil. Yet you want power on a larger scale than just regional, larger than continental. I wouldn't call it global, because it's not really tangible. It's one idea being dominate. That is ideological heirarchy. The essence of power in the form of superiority is still strong. While you bicker over theory, bodies of the starved lay lifeless, more starve. So go break some windows, i'm sure the thirdworld will appreciate the budget cuts due to recent rioting, or vandilism in america.

[GlassDraggon]

There is a time and a place for everything. For instance- E.L.F. (the Environmental Liberation Front) torched a huge urban sprawl style residential building that was being constructed. They then pledged to commit similar acts of destruction against similar targets "at least once every two weeks". The two sides of the argument are: 1. they lost reputability because they just turned more people off to their cause and in the long run they're hurting themselves as an organization. Or 2. it actually strengenthed their movement because they are attaining their goals. The people who are turned off or disgusted by them destroying corporate property don't need to be recruited, they need to be fought. Those people would NEVER have joined or supported ELF int he first place, so why cater to their whims?

I think the second argument applies to a lot of our situations. The people who are disgusted by us tearing down corporations are 8/10 times hopeless at the moment and by catering to them and their whims we are degrading our own ideals. It can certainly be argued back though that we are being immature by destroying private corporate property and that we're losing the moral battle....but in my opinion- fuck morality and fuck their conception of "maturity". In my eyes both are set up strictly to protect the status quo and to keep US in check. If we play by morality we are automatically playing by THEIR morality and if we attempt to be seen as "mature" we are once again playing THEIR game.

You've gotta stop giving a shit what THEY think about you and start tearing their corrupt, exploitative, reactionary system and things have to get pretty goddamn bad before these ignorant fuckers realize that they're being oppressed.

This is all my opinion obviously and I'm in a pretty bad mood after volunteering down at the homeless shelter feeding people who are being kicked into the dirt by these corporations and millionaires who are living in their massive billion dollar skyscrapers and driving around in their limosines. I say smash that shit because it isn't THEIRS anyways- they stole it from US and the millions of underpaid workers around the world.

[GlassDraggon]

Oh yeah, the ELF incident was last night I believe....so that'd be the 10th of Feb.

[GlassDraggon]

Here's the other thing I'll say because it just came to me-

Imagine it like this...in America people are disassociated with nature. They think the water comes from the tap and that food comes from the supermarket (in fact, most everyone I've asked that question has cited those two). They don't think about the stream or the lake or the river that the water was pumped from or the farms that the food was grown on. But here's where things start to work in our favor...

It starts one day when they all wake up in their neat little suburbs and they walk to the tap. They turn the handle and no water comes out, they think to themselves "well thats odd". The same thing happens two days later and they continue to think "well thats odd". Then after about a week of this they start thinking "whats happening? why isn't there any water?" After a month of this they're thinking "please stop". Within a year of this they go "AHA! Water comes from the streams, lakes, ocean, and rivers!"

People have to realize that water doesn't magically flow from the tap and people also have to realize that democracy isn't automated. The only way to effectively do this is to interrupt their daily lives for a prolonged period of time.

[Ele'ill]

You've gotta stop giving a shit what THEY think about you and start tearing their corrupt, exploitative, reactionary system and things have to get pretty goddamn bad before these ignorant fuckers realize that they're being oppressed.


You are assuming it is an US and THEM situation. There are people that simply do not know or understand any significance behind property destruction. It is not THE CAPITALISTS and THE RIGHTEOUS REVOLUTIONARIES. "things have to get pretty goddamn bad before these ignorant fuckers realize" I'd like to take this part of my response to have you reread your own post. As you clearly stated, the individuals that are unaware and simply not knowing about current events should be violently brought to light about them. This is wrong. Most people's first 'taste' of the left will be seeing them smashing shit on the news. Yeah as you said it dosn't cater to everyone, only those interested will in fact 'join' the movements. You think that you'll recruit enough people through breaking windows to form any kind of a movment? Are they the right type of people for the movement and do they have any sense of compassion for real events in the world? The difference between what ELF does and what happens at these protests is that when ELF does something their actions are louder than their auroa of being. When some person kicks a cop, smashes a window, ...all that is in the spot light is themselves. ELF is a global movement. Wasn't just one resort that they torched, they have done multiple, highly organized actions on very significant targets as well as some minor actions on minor targets.
Your second post is irrelevant to the conversation. Yeah, many people are jaded through ignorance. They assume food and water is a birth right. Wouldn't you consider yourself one of those people? Do you rely on the tap and the grocery store? You have happy people eating at the grocery store, and happy people drinking from the tap, how is destruction or god forbid violence going to wake them up? Once again someone is talking about enlightening a population through forceful means. Sort of like the system being complained about. 'but it would be for a good cause' In the eyes of the capitalists, the IMF and WB are there for a good cause.

This is all my opinion obviously and I'm in a pretty bad mood after volunteering down at the homeless shelter feeding people who are being kicked into the dirt by these corporations and millionaires who are living in their massive billion dollar skyscrapers and driving around in their limosines. I say smash that shit because it isn't THEIRS anyways- they stole it from US and the millions of underpaid workers around the world.
volunteering at the homeless shelter is the most you could do? Next time volunteer, or fly by yourself out to the third world. Atleast in america, there is a chance for recovery. How exactly can you make the assumption that 'these' homeless people were kicked into the dirt by corporations? Do you know the statistics reguarding the homelessness, drug addiction, and the mentally ill? Being homeless is not always the fault of corporations. Especially in america. Next
They didn't physically steal anything from the workers of the world, it is in fact something intangible that they stole. Which is why you can't combat a popular ideology by physically destroying something as insignificant as a window. Come on guys you know this quote 'you can kill the revolutionary but you can never kill the revolution' the revolution is simply the current ideology that is motivating the masses. In this case, the popular ideology is materialism and hording. In light of the ones in favor of vilolence, here is an example. If you had a castle of the enemy, and a surrounding village, you could A) storm the castle and if you couldn't win you would die and martyr the event. B) attack the village, and burn it, C) steal a chicken from the village at four oclock in the morning, ride on a horse with the chicken for three hours before entering a dark woods, dismounting the horse, and stompping the chicken to death, cheering and proclaiming yourself victorious over the enemy empire. You in favor of the petty forms of property destruction discussed so far (excluding ELF) have just picked C as your answer.


But as I said, the second post was irrelevant to the conversation, this thread is about property destruction.

[GlassDraggon]

I can respect your arguments, but I completely disagree with all of them. I think they're based off an assumption that I support "smashing windows". I'm not supporting petty vandalism but I am in support of large scale property destruction. I'd rather not go into depth on this forum but you are welcome to talk to me through email or IM in depth regarding any of that.

You say "is that all you could do?" You need to watch your mouth. You're talking to someone who has spent the last 4 years of his young life spending extended periods of time in countries like Bolivia, Lao, Burma, Northern Thailand, and Southern Peru working with the people. But if one can't take care of his or her own people, how can one help others? You are blatantly disrespectful and arrogant.

You talk briefly about the concept of righteousness and seem to spit the words. Yet righteousness is what has led every revolution in history and there has never been a single successful revolution that was not based on an us vs them mentality.

If you see my second post as irrelevent then I pity you in your ignorance. I have given a perfectly acceptable reason for property destruction and all you can argue about is the relevancy of the post. Once again, if you're sincerely interested in that you are welcome to talk to me in private.

On to your last point "they didn't physically steal anything from the workers of the world"- bullshit. I'm considering who this argument is coming from. I'm willing to bet you are a young, middle class, well fed, fairly well educated, ideologically superior, American who lives off these corporations each and every day. When was the last time you starved for a prolonged period? When was the last time you had no water because it is all polluted by the Coke plant 4 miles from where you live? How about the last time you were beaten for attempting to unionize? I've experienced all of those things first hand and have seen the prolonged suffering caused by those things. They are the direct result of the actions taken by corporations in the name of profit. If nothing else: they took the hope from those people and that is the most valuable thing anyone can possess.

So what is the point behind all of this ranting? 1. Corporations cannot "own" property. 2. People cannot "own" property. 3. Corporations and the rich have stolen lives, happiness, and hope from millions worldwide. 4. There is no room for your morality or ideological supremacy, you've got to play dirty to win. 5. Who honestly gives two shits what the white middle class Americans think when there are hundreds of thousands dying every year?

The question is: what would do the most damage to this corporate ruled society? If you even have to ask whether we should or not- you have been assimilated or you are simply another ideological/philisophical leftist.

[Black Radical]

As a communist none of this property destruction eithr on a large or small scale brings the masses any closer to revolution. Working Class sturggle is the means to having a worker-led society. Violence is a part of the revolutionary struggle, but nothing proposed in this thread brings workers any closer to freedom from this system.

Accusing the movement of being soft because they dont support these tactics is childish. What exactly is accomplished by blocking a drive thru? Breakig a window or destroying some other property? Exposure? of What? Is it not bad enough that everyone thinks young anarchist kids go around breaking anything they can get their hands on?

Where are the politics in this? Would Che support something like this?

[Ele'ill]

You say "is that all you could do?" You need to watch your mouth. You're talking to someone who has spent the last 4 years of his young life spending extended periods of time in countries like Bolivia, Lao, Burma, Northern Thailand, and Southern Peru working with the people. But if one can't take care of his or her own people, how can one help others? You are blatantly disrespectful and arrogant

Congrats on actually making it over seas. My challenge wasn't to put you down, it was to find out more information and insite you to respond with some type of passionate retort. Noone else has done that on this thread so far. 'Watch your mouth' is uneccisary, I have also done hands on type of work overseas. I am glad to see atleast one of the many people that frequent this forum has also made it.


You talk briefly about the concept of righteousness and seem to spit the words. Yet righteousness is what has led every revolution in history and there has never been a single successful revolution that was not based on an us vs them mentality.


There will always be two sides to a revolution however the THEM that you and others seem to refer to is the general population including those opposed to property destruction. Without the support of the population a revolution will fail as a revolution generally benefits the majority of the people. Workers can strike to shut down an empire but they can also strike to sqeltch a revolution. Not every worker in the world is going to unite at your word.



If you see my second post as irrelevent then I pity you in your ignorance

Why pity it when you could have made yourself more clear? If it was true ignorance than I suppose the teacher, being you in this case, has failed.


I'm willing to bet you are a young, middle class, well fed, fairly well educated, ideologically superior, American who lives off these corporations each and every day. When was the last time you starved for a prolonged period? When was the last time you had no water because it is all polluted by the Coke plant 4 miles from where you live? How about the last time you were beaten for attempting to unionize? I've experienced all of those things first hand and have seen the prolonged suffering caused by those things. They are the direct result of the actions taken by corporations in the name of profit. If nothing else: they took the hope from those people and that is the most valuable thing anyone can possess.


Well you bet and you are wrong. I am twenty years old (I suppose that is young) living on my own in a small apartment not too far outside of philadelphia. I can't afford to eat two meals a day and do not have family to fall back on but this is all irrelevant. As I said in my post, if you bothered to take it into account, what capitalism has taken from the rest of the world is not tangible. It isn't money that is important it isn't food or having a house, it is the hope that things can get better. As you put it "If nothing else: they took the hope from those people and that is the most valuable thing anyone can possess." Exactly what I said in my post. In terms of corporations causing homelessness in america, I doubt it. There are more reasons for homelessness in america than simply 'the corporations did it'. As for the "I'm willing to bet you are a young, middle class, well fed, fairly well educated, ideologically superior, American who lives off these corporations each and every day. " That is exactly what I Was saying about you in response to your second large post. Why say the same thing back? In my response to your second large post I was saying that cutting off water supplies and such would be ironic seeing how you live off of the tap just as they do. Do you not eat food from grocery stores? If you live in a capitalist culture, it is very hard to not be a capitalist yourself. I am not saying you have bowed down to it, or that you even live in a capitalist culture, however my point stands. You rely on tap just as much as your neighor. Enlighten them to the idea that we as humans are hunters and should be self sufficient. If they simply do not know about something or havn't pondered an idea that you hold as truth, you dont' lash out at them and expect them to respond in a positive manner.



The question is: what would do the most damage to this corporate ruled society? If you even have to ask whether we should or not- you have been assimilated or you are simply another ideological/philisophical leftist.

Sounds sort of like something your good friend George Bush said in reguards to terrorism and the international community. You just did a 'you are with us or against us' draw a line in the sand. A blatantly immature thing to do. As you can see from my post where I was talking about ELF, I would consider highly organized nonlethal acts of property destruction to be somewhat significant although I do not support it. Everyone else on this thread has said stuff about cars, windows, or seattle ect.. all petty forms of vandilism. Give me an example of where property destruction has caused a revolution and not further militarized a state or region.


So what is the point behind all of this ranting? 1. Corporations cannot "own" property. 2. People cannot "own" property. 3. Corporations and the rich have stolen lives, happiness, and hope from millions worldwide. 4. There is no room for your morality or ideological supremacy, you've got to play dirty to win. 5. Who honestly gives two shits what the white middle class Americans think when there are hundreds of thousands dying every year?

Well if you call this ranting on an open discussion forum about topics that people pick for open discussion when they first start a thread then ok.. :rolleyes: I am not against destruction at the right time with the right intentions, a time and motivation where it will not only prove physicall worth while but also symbolically worthwhile. I do not think the time, reasons discussed, and place are valid.(Edited) I have not seen anything aside from petty forms of destruction here in america (excluding ELF). Protests in general in america are weak in comparison to the third world (if you've ever been a part of one) and yes at last the pinnacle of ignorance "5. Who honestly gives two shits what the white middle class Americans think when there are hundreds of thousands dying every year?" Who gives two shits about the middle class and what they think? Are you insane? You are burning too many bridges. Once again, Revolutions generally are run by and benefit the people, if you havn't won their minds, you cannot expect them to stand by while you try to force your own ideological systems on them, let alone take part in it. So I would say, yeah, a wise revolutionary would indeed think and care what the middle class has to say.

[The Feral Underclass]

I find it highly amusing and ironic, considering your attitude in this thread, that you have this image as your profile picture...

http://www.eco-action.org/dod/no9/we_are_winning.jpg

[Ĉħé_Ĝűĕ]

Lol i was going to say that!!

[Ele'ill]

"We are winning". That was seattle if i'm not mistaken and seattle was not symbolic because of violence and destruction, it was symbolic because of all the different groups that united to speak out. What IS ironic is that through generally peaceful protest and united movements the city was shut down. The 'We are Winning' being the punchline. A Scribble on a building of something non specific such as 'we are winning' or a discussion on a bathroom stall are not terrible things, planning petty property destruction as a means of 'revolution' or public outreach to get a specific political ideology across are childish. The reason spray jobs worked in seattle, was because they had pre planned clean up crews (activists). Once again as I've stated in this thread or maybe another one is that there will be certain events that mean something, such as N30. Leave them alone. They are symbolic and when there is an attempt to repeat them, by smashing mcdonalds windows and such, it just looks bad, and it's a slap in the face to what the symbolic event was.

(A Side note of irony that I wasn't sure you all understood was the fact that the wall scribble was surrounded by armoured riot police that had not currently been there when the action took place. Winning? Sure. but not through means of vandilism)

[guerillablack]

It only hurts the mom and pop places. I doubt it will hurt the big corporations, can't they just do a write off? Property destruction does nothing to hurt the govenment.

[GlassDraggon]

Sorry, I meant my OWN ranting and didn't mean to imply that others were ranting. Sometimes I get sick of hearing myself repeat things over and over without effect.

I think were we disagree is in the education aspect. You seem to inherently believe that people can be enlightened and that you can change the system from the inside and then convert the system into a socialist/marxist and potentially anarchist state (or whatever you may believe or want). I have to say that I totally disagree with you though. It would be the path of least resistance and greatest effectiveness where your beliefs true but I am quite convinced that we can NEVER re-educate the masses in the current world. The average American household has their television on 7 HOURS a day...there is NO way we can counter educate quickly or effectively enough to stop things before they fall apart.

I am quite certain that the only method to incite permanent change is to knock everything back down to the foundations. The foundations are solid, they are the people but so long as we are trying to build on top of the current system, it will surely collapse. It is build cheap. So you mentioned that you would like me to give you an example of where property destruction caused change- South Africa, Argentina, Cuba, and Indonesia are a few examples. In South Africa they destroyed and shut down the major highways therby cutting the corporations feet out from under them. When I say "property damage/destruction" I AM NOT talking about baseball bats and windows. "property damage/destruction's" purpose is to take capital away from corporations or governments and the same can be achieved through, lets say, lawsuits. So a successful lawsuit against a major corporation for the purposes of harming the corporation is in fact, by definition, property damage. Or as many rebel and revolutionary groups have done- they have shut supply lines such as airports down in order to cut off supplies to the opposing military. These are ALL examples of property damage and destruction on an effective level. ELF's actions were petty, I will grant that. But they were actions that represented the goals of that organization. I'm by NO means saying that we should commit similar acts and in fact I would say that it would be foolish to do so. But there are acts of property destruction that are absolutely NECESSARY in order to fight back.

I understand that you have brought up other points, but I don't have time at the moment to respond to all of them in the depth that I would like to. I hope this satisfies the biggest issue.

I also commend you for your struggles and for your assistance to others who are in worse situations than yourself but that is NOT sufficient. It is treating the SYMPTOMS of a far greater illness and if we only fight the symptoms out of fear of failure or public scrutiny then the patient is doomed anyways. Sometimes what the people do not like what is best for them and it is our duty as individuals to decide what would be best for not only ourselves, but our societies. Joe Shmo doesn't want to give up eating 5 double quarterpounders and doesn't want to pay more than 5% in taxes but thats too bad because his whims do not take precedence over the human rights of those who have to starve in order for him to eat or those who get paid $2 per day so he can make $20 an hour. In MY eyes the only way to begin REAL change is by causing serious damage to major corporations.

Do you or do you not see corporations as the enemy of the people? If so, what do you believe is the best way to slay the giant? Do you propose we talk them to death or negotiate them into submission?

[Ele'ill]

Your reply is appreciated. We seem to generally agree that property destruction is not to be carried out at simple protests as spontaneous acts of 'revolution'. As these acts are not anywhere close to effective, if anything, they are counter-productive.
Just a couple more arguments



Joe Shmo doesn't want to give up eating 5 double quarterpounders and doesn't want to pay more than 5% in taxes but thats too bad because his whims do not take precedence over the human rights of those who have to starve in order for him to eat or those who get paid $2 per day so he can make $20 an hour.

The average American household has their television on 7 HOURS a day...there is NO way we can counter educate quickly or effectively enough to stop things before they fall apart

I would argue that. First, it isn't the corporations fault for having a large following of people buying their products. It is their friends, the media, that portray the products in a certain way and that do not show the corruption that is often behind the corporations. There are movments that are currently putting major media outlets on the spot for their bias. Not simply because of their bias but because of their ties to certain corporations, which benefit from their bias. Adbusters recently sued in light of this. I am not sure of the details you can check it out at www.adbusters.org (http://www.adbusters.org). The fact that there is only a two party system has much to do with this also. If 'we' win the airwaves for equal spot times, I am certain that the american public, not everyone, but many will start to question their own way of living. I appologize for the lack of information in this post about the lawsuit against the major media outlet and the movement behind it, it is however worth checking out.



Do you or do you not see corporations as the enemy of the people? If so, what do you believe is the best way to slay the giant? Do you propose we talk them to death or negotiate them into submission?

I do.
The most affective way to 'slay the giant' would be to stop feeding it. It would be possible to once again shed light on the WTO/IMF/WB (privitization) and have all workers of american corporations overseas boycott/strike. See how many are actually willing to do this. This would give you a good idea of how many people oppose/support american corporations in that light. I understand that many do not have that choice to wake up and not go to work, but a well organized strike would possibly be the motivation needed. The media, corporations and government share the same interest. Talking to them might work. Lay out less liberal plans that will gradually start to make a difference. I doubt that this route will make an impact. Talking to them would be negotiating them into submission. But who is to say they would have to submit. They may possibley agree. I would like to state that I don't claim to have great ideas for change circulating in my head. Many ideas have not been thought of yet, this is why I am hesitant in resorting to violence. I simply do not believe enough people would carry out enough effective whatevers against whoever to make any kind of a positive difference. I am not against protesting, I am not against a revolution, I am against quickly made irrational decisions made by a handfull of people whom I don't know. Which brings another point, there is very little significant organizing among the 'left'. Yeah ok the left organizes for protests and they have all these cool slogans and they may know your name but that isn't going to cut it. I have seen very little passion from the left recently and it makes me wonder why everyone is so sad about the right taking over. Wouldn't you? If you saw the political opponent falling down and losing it's grip wouldn't you rise up and take it's place? I personal wouldn't, I don't feel my ideology is fit for everyone, I don't crave power or fame. Reguarding the property destruction part of this thread :P... Currently, My stance on violence is that I will never trust any human being to use violence as a tactic in my name.

[GlassDraggon]

To your first counter argument- I'd have to say that you are wrong. It IS in fact the fault of the corporations because they control all of the large scale media (given with a few exceptions but these are very rarely "mainstream" enough to make a difference). I understand also that corporations arent the ONLY enemies of the people but they are an excellent target to keep people motivated. People need a tangible goal in order for revolution to be successful.

Second point- I think we agree entirely in most aspects but that we're just seeing each other from different angles. I certainly do not agree with rash decisions as I have already stated. I also do not believe that protests will in any way win the war nor will boycotts and labor strikes. The reason I do not see a strike as a viable solution is twofold. First of all, corporations have had nearly a century's worth of experience in preventing and effectively shutting down strikers and picket lines and it is almost impossible to create a viable international strike while there are legions of workers waiting to replace those on strike. My second argument works off my prior assumption that we can't actually out educate people in this country and in most of the world. Given, education works in places like Central and South America but that is primarily because those people arent undergoing 24/7 mindfucking like we are. They don't drive by 40 billboards sporting Nike, McDonalds, and Wal-Mart in a friendly and socially heralded fashion. They arent taught from birth that these corporations are their best friends. You see the problem here? Unless we can do all of this BETTER than the status-quo, our attempts at re-education would be written off as "radical" and "crazy" by the general public and the media. People are convinced that food comes DIRECTLY from the grocery stores and they will do ANYTHING to defend SafeWay and Albertson's so long as they believe that (analogy).

The only way to get through to these people is to disrupt their lives and show them that they arent living in a perfect little isolationist world where they are immune to the suffering of the world. Somehow someones got to drive the point home. The best way I can see this happening is by "interupting the flow of food to SafeWay" (also an analogy). If you can somehow educate the people more effectively and efficiently than the status-quo, I would absolutely commend you and would to awestruck. But I'm not willing to wait and see while the country and the world as a whole is falling apart.

I hope the clean and easy solutions work faster, but if they don't- drastic problems often require drastic solutions.

[Ele'ill]

First of all, corporations have had nearly a century's worth of experience in preventing and effectively shutting down strikers and picket lines and it is almost impossible to create a viable international strike while there are legions of workers waiting to replace those on strike.

Maybe, just a utopian idea, the true workers of the world, in third world countries (more probable atleast) will decide that laboring FOR someone is not the answer, they will simply decide to switch to farming for themselves, self sufficient ect.. This would essentially be a perma-strike.

To counter your counter argument of my first argument I&#39;d like to state that I agree. <_< the media is owned by corporations but I think this is only because they benefit eachother. They are not literally ONE unit, permanently united as ONE unit. You weren&#39;t saying this is the case but I wanted to clarify that for anyone viewing this thread. The Media, the Government, and the corporations are similar to what the international intelligence agencies were to eachother in their &#39;golden days&#39;. They worked together, but not because they liked eachother. They simply shared the same interests, being money and power. If by chance the american population was enlightend through an alternative mainstream not left wing not right wing media outlet, there would be less money coming from the public and thus less power granted to the corporations, media, government.

[GlassDraggon]

Nope, I see them as one cohesive unit that is held together by corporations.