Why I Cant Be Communist

[truthman]

First off, I've read the Communist Manifesto. I've read about Marx's life and history. And about the followers of him. Simply enough, there are reasons why Capitalism proves superior to Communism. Here's the first.

1)Ambition:
Communism: Ambition is subverted to the will of the workers. If a man designs a revolutionary (no pun intended) product, unless demand exists for that product, or unless the unions agree, his product never sees the light of day. His ambition is subjugated because no one cares. Many of historys greatest scientific ideas were not wanted by the collective, yet survived because men of ambition kept them alive.
Secondly, Communism relegates everyone to absolute equality. In other words, if i work hard, think smart and am over all an ambitious man, the end result is that I don't go any further than the man with no ambition. My ambitions are in vain. My will to suceed and be something is destroyed. Communism is anti-theitical to human nature, which has and will always be, competitive, domineering and ambitious.
Capitalism: Capitalism appeals to the desire of humans to suceed. Its for the ambitious. A man with an ambitous plan can suceed, whether it be my building his own business, or by working with another business. But the end result is that his ambition can be rewarded. Not everyone is economically equal, but anyone can become rich if they work hard. Its just not always easy. Captialism does reward ambition and hard-work.

[The Garbage Disposal Unit]

Haha, you have a really narrow understanding of success and motivation.

Personally, capitalism hasn't motivated me as a lover, as an artist (Heck, if anything, the cost of replacing guitar strings has discouraged me . . . and I had to pirate my copy of PaintShop), as a friend, as a cook, as a writer, and so on. Essentially, in the things that really matter to me capitalism has been, at absolute best, a non-factor, and often a handicap.

Sure, if yr only goal is to own and to accumulate shit, communism won't provide a lot to motivate you, but some of us can get laid without turning to prostitution.

[amusing foibles]

If someone makes an "amazing" new product.... and nobody wants it.... then what's the point?

[(R)evolution of the mind]

Under capitalism, if I have an amazing new idea for a product, but the capitalists don't like it -- don't think it will generate them enough money -- it will never see the light of the day.

[truthman]

Originally posted by amusing [email protected] 4 2005, 05:33 AM
If someone makes an "amazing" new product.... and nobody wants it.... then what's the point?
Give me an example of where no one wants a product, and no one is willing to take a gamble on it. In fact, thats why businesses tend to fail is because people take a chance on a product, and lose.

[truthman]

Originally posted by (R)evolution of the [email protected] 4 2005, 05:40 AM
Under capitalism, if I have an amazing new idea for a product, but the capitalists don't like it -- don't think it will generate them enough money -- it will never see the light of the day.
Then you start your own business. Clever marketing and salesmanship has saved many a company.

[amusing foibles]

Originally posted by truthman+Feb 4 2005, 05:41 AM--> (truthman @ Feb 4 2005, 05:41 AM)
amusing [email protected] 4 2005, 05:33 AM
If someone makes an "amazing" new product.... and nobody wants it.... then what's the point?
Give me an example of where no one wants a product, and no one is willing to take a gamble on it. In fact, thats why businesses tend to fail is because people take a chance on a product, and lose. [/b]
Why would people stop taking risks on products and helping along their development unter communism?

Unless the only reason people are investing is to make gobs and gobs of money, which would call into question the actual use value of the product.

If someone wants a product, it'll get made. Why wouldn't it?

[Don't Change Your Name]

Originally posted by [email protected] 4 2005, 05:22 AM
1)Ambition:
Communism: Ambition is subverted to the will of the workers.
Yeah, well my ambition of being supreme king of the whole planet is subverted to the will of the bourgeoisie :rolleyes:


If a man designs a revolutionary (no pun intended) product, unless demand exists for that product, or unless the unions agree, his product never sees the light of day.

Well, if the product consists in a frozen mountain of horseshit I doubt somebody will want it...


His ambition is subjugated because no one cares. Many of historys greatest scientific ideas were not wanted by the collective, yet survived because men of ambition kept them alive.

...this is of course assuming that the individual who comes up with the idea of the frozen mountain of horseshit will forget about it, and that nobody would give a damn about any frozen mountain of horseshit, not even trying to see its benefits. People's not that stupid and might find a frozen mountain of horseshit useful. It seems you fall for the "state controlled society" idea, when there are more alternatives than Leninism and such crap.


Secondly, Communism relegates everyone to absolute equality.

Define "Communism"


In other words, if i work hard, think smart and am over all an ambitious man, the end result is that I don't go any further than the man with no ambition.

You won't "go any further" if what you want is being a boss.


My ambitions are in vain. My will to suceed and be something is destroyed.

You're always something


Communism is anti-theitical to human nature, which has and will always be, competitive, domineering and ambitious.

Following this argument, you might argue that slavery is justified since its "domineering". The problem is that when someone "dominates" the rest DON'T. Being "competitive" is different for each individual, and people will always find ways to compete.


Capitalism: Capitalism appeals to the desire of humans to suceed.

"Desire of humans to suceed"? In which way? Is it some kind of "human nature"? What's the evolutive advantage of "suceeding"? (Unless you talk about sexual issues which are not the main issue here)


Its for the ambitious.

Well, if a slave frees himself he can also own slaves someday :rolleyes:


A man with an ambitous plan can suceed, whether it be my building his own business, or by working with another business. But the end result is that his ambition can be rewarded. Not everyone is economically equal, but anyone can become rich if they work hard. Its just not always easy. Captialism does reward ambition and hard-work.

Avoids the real issue of all this "war", which is the bourgeois-proletarian conflict. And you're not giving convincing reasons to assume "hard work" will get you far in a capitalist economy.

[ernie]

If a man designs a revolutionary (no pun intended) product, unless demand exists for that product, or unless the unions agree, his product never sees the light of day.
If the product is indeed revolutionary, than the fact that he was able to invent it should be gratification enough. Why must there be a monetary reward? Hard work can be a reward in itself.

In other words, if i work hard, think smart and am over all an ambitious man, the end result is that I don't go any further than the man with no ambition. My ambitions are in vain. My will to suceed and be something is destroyed.
There are other types of ambition and success, not just the economic ones: academic ambition, artistic ambition, spiritual ambition, to name a few. Perhaps you don't know them. The US school system never really goes into that...

Not everyone is economically equal, but anyone can become rich if they work hard. Its just not always easy. Captialism does reward ambition and hard-work.
You are terribly mistaken. Capitalism rewards the will of one to do anything for money. Many times that inlcludes screwing over other people (Bill Gates is a fine example). There are plenty of people who work extremeley hard and barely have the means to get by, let alone be rich.

[Essential Insignificance]

Communism: Ambition is subverted to the will of the workers. If a man designs a revolutionary (no pun intended) product, unless demand exists for that product, or unless the unions agree, his product never sees the light of day. His ambition is subjugated because no one cares. Many of historys greatest scientific ideas were not wanted by the collective, yet survived because men of ambition kept them alive.

In a communist society... the production of objects will be reasoned collectively by their "utility" and "function" to suffice society's "wants" and "needs".

If a product is found by society to be both be "functional" and "useful"... then I'd imagine production of the item would begin.

Chances are if a man "designed" a truly "revolutionary" product -- society would be very appreciative of it and would therefore produce it.

But if a "design" is thought to be "useless" and "ineffectual"... chances are -- the product is.

And the "great man' will be rendered a charlatan!

But maybe... in a hundred years time, his product will be thought to be both "valuable" and "useful" by society and production with transpire.

[The Garbage Disposal Unit]

Originally posted by [email protected] 4 2005, 06:05 AM
There are other types of ambition and success, not just the economic ones: academic ambition, artistic ambition, spiritual ambition, to name a few. Perhaps you don't know them. The US school system never really goes into that...
Silly Ernie, Truthman is an asexual robot whose only function is accumulate.

Once, he found the meaning of life, but he realized that it can't be bought and sold, so he deleted the file, and returned to his progrom.

<Meep&#33; Meep&#33;>

[NovelGentry]

If a man designs a revolutionary (no pun intended) product, unless demand exists for that product, or unless the unions agree, his product never sees the light of day.

This is indicative of how much you misunderstood when you read Marx. The means of production are open, aka: public, aka: shared. You have equal access to them to make whatever product it is you desire to make or have come up with. What you do NOT have is the right to subjugate the labor of others to produce that product.

Although I do certainly agree with other points, where if no one wants the product, there is no point to making it.


Secondly, Communism relegates everyone to absolute equality. In other words, if i work hard, think smart and am over all an ambitious man, the end result is that I don&#39;t go any further than the man with no ambition.

You mean you don&#39;t have any excessive wealth. You can "go further." You may be very well respected and upheld as a genius. People may write about you, tell their friends about you, admire you, envy you, enjoy your company, etc. Such a person will be massively successful in a communist society, unfortunately for your greed, this garners you no more material wealth than anyone else.


Capitalism appeals to the desire of humans to suceed. Its for the ambitious.

And that&#39;s an easy thing to do when you equate success to money. The latter type of success I was referring to is a lot more respectable.

Seems to me all these supporters of capitalism are just afraid of real competition, where something like fucking people over would not get them in a better position, but in a far worse one.

[(R)evolution of the mind]

Originally posted by truthman+Feb 4 2005, 08:43 AM--> (truthman &#064; Feb 4 2005, 08:43 AM)
®evolution of the [email protected] 4 2005, 05:40 AM
Under capitalism, if I have an amazing new idea for a product, but the capitalists don&#39;t like it -- don&#39;t think it will generate them enough money -- it will never see the light of the day.
Then you start your own business. Clever marketing and salesmanship has saved many a company. [/b]
With what? I need the backing of a financial capitalist to build a plant to produce the thing and so on. We&#39;re back where we started from: some capitalist must think he can make huge bucks with your idea.

[(R)evolution of the mind]

The mere existence of free software, net comics and the like refutes any claims that people wouldn&#39;t satisfy their ambitions if it were not for the money. Unfortunately people whose ambitions lie in fields where the end result is a physical good are not in such a good situation under the current system, and there have been lobbying attempts by M&#036; et all at effectively illegalising free software by requiring all kinds of certifications to be allowed to distribute software. Yes -- the cappies do not infact want a truely free market. A truely free market would not even have IP.

[fernando]

1)Ambition:
Communism: Ambition is subverted to the will of the workers. If a man designs a revolutionary (no pun intended) product, unless demand exists for that product, or unless the unions agree, his product never sees the light of day. His ambition is subjugated because no one cares. Many of historys greatest scientific ideas were not wanted by the collective, yet survived because men of ambition kept them alive.

Hmm...so what if useless product dont see the daylight? Do we need reality tv? Do we need MTV? Do we need pokemon? NO&#33;
But a good example of a &#39;revolutionairy&#39; invention which was under communism was the AK 47 rifle.

[The Garbage Disposal Unit]

Hey, remember when Dr. Fredrick Banting discovered insulin, and refused to patent it? Wow, that wasn&#39;t very self-interested&#33; Way to subvert the market, you commie fuck-up&#33;


Originally posted by http://www.cbc.ca/greatest/top_ten/nominee/banting&#045;frederick.html
In a selfless move, the quartet decided not to seek a patent for their life-saving serum, a move that surely cost them a fortune. Instead, they sold the rights to their formulation to U of T for &#036;1 as a means of ensuring that insulin could be affordably manufactured for years to come.

[seraphim]

Capitalism rewards the will of one to do anything for money. Many times that inlcludes screwing over other people (Bill Gates is a fine example). There are plenty of people who work extremeley hard and barely have the means to get by, let alone be rich.

bill gates is a traitorus money grabbing fuck-wit who should be burned at the stake

[patrickbeverley]

Originally posted by [email protected] 4 2005, 05:22 AM
1)Ambition:
Communism: Ambition is subverted to the will of the workers. If a man designs a revolutionary (no pun intended) product, unless demand exists for that product, or unless the unions agree, his product never sees the light of day. His ambition is subjugated because no one cares. Many of historys greatest scientific ideas were not wanted by the collective, yet survived because men of ambition kept them alive.
Secondly, Communism relegates everyone to absolute equality. In other words, if i work hard, think smart and am over all an ambitious man, the end result is that I don&#39;t go any further than the man with no ambition. Communism is anti-theitical to human nature, which has and will always be, competitive, domineering and ambitious.
Capitalism: Capitalism appeals to the desire of humans to suceed. A man with an ambitous plan can suceed, whether it be my building his own business, or by working with another business. But the end result is that his ambition can be rewarded. Not everyone is economically equal, but anyone can become rich if they work hard. Its just not always easy. Captialism does reward ambition and hard-work.
Why I Am Not Capitalist OR Communist

Why I Am Not Capitalist:
As truthman so interestingly states, under Communism, a product cannot see the light of day without demand. Why is this a bad thing? Under Capitalism, products sell well without initial demand because of the power of advertising, ie conning the people into wasting their money on things they neither need nor want, but have been conditioned to want by clever marketing. That is why Capitalism is shit.
He also says that Communism "relegates" everyone to absolute equality. Now, personally, I would feel that being given absolute equality would be a promotion, but perhaps truthman is in a position to feel that he is well above the average. Perhaps this is why he is a fervent supporter of Capitalism.

Why I Am Not Communist:
However, on a couple of scores truthman is bang-on. Sadly, most people will not work for the good of the state if there is no personal gain for them. Also, in calling human nature "competitive, domineering and ambitious", truthman reminds us of why communism doesn&#39;t work; because, in a situation where people are absolutely equal, one ambitious person can rise to the top and take complete control, under the guise of just helping the country to run smoothly. This is what Stalin did in the USSR. Communism is the perfect system for perfect people, but sadly there are few perfect people in the world. Like it or not, true Communism is a breeding ground for brutal dictatorships.

Personally, I am a left-wing liberal. I do feel that the way forward is for a democratically elected government to have control, (and when I say democratically elected i mean democratically elected, not the shit that&#39;s perpetrated in America right now) but I also feel that benefits for single mothers, the unemployed, disabled people etc. need to rise sharply. I wish I could support Communism, as it certainly appeals more than Capitalism, but my lack of support for it is simply on grounds of pragmatism. The human race is not ready for Communism.

[Elect Marx]

Originally posted by [email protected] 5 2005, 02:50 AM
He also says that Communism "relegates" everyone to absolute equality. Now, personally, I would feel that being given absolute equality would be a promotion, but perhaps truthman is in a position to feel that he is well above the average. Perhaps this is why he is a fervent supporter of Capitalism.
Welcome to RevLeft.com&#33;

No regulations exist under communism.


Why I Am Not Communist:
However, on a couple of scores truthman is bang-on. Sadly, most people will not work for the good of the state if there is no personal gain for them.

Communism is stateless. You need to look into the definition a little more.


Also, in calling human nature "competitive, domineering and ambitious", truthman reminds us of why communism doesn&#39;t work; because, in a situation where people are absolutely equal, one ambitious person can rise to the top and take complete control, under the guise of just helping the country to run smoothly. This is what Stalin did in the USSR. Communism is the perfect system for perfect people, but sadly there are few perfect people in the world. Like it or not, true Communism is a breeding ground for brutal dictatorships.

If people are truly equal, no one will have the ability to gain power over others, that would be inequality. Your examples are not communism. Some threads are currently explaining communism, feel free to take a look.


Personally, I am a left-wing liberal. I do feel that the way forward is for a democratically elected government to have control, (and when I say democratically elected i mean democratically elected, not the shit that&#39;s perpetrated in America right now) but I also feel that benefits for single mothers, the unemployed, disabled people etc. need to rise sharply. I wish I could support Communism, as it certainly appeals more than Capitalism, but my lack of support for it is simply on grounds of pragmatism. The human race is not ready for Communism.

True, humanity is not yet ready; that is the purpose of the transitional socialist phase. Rulers will never allow us to elect a "just governing system" and progress along those lines; we need to revolt to escape their power structure.

[Don't Change Your Name]

Originally posted by [email protected] 5 2005, 07:50 AM
Why I Am Not Communist:
However, on a couple of scores truthman is bang-on. Sadly, most people will not work for the good of the state if there is no personal gain for them. Also, in calling human nature "competitive, domineering and ambitious", truthman reminds us of why communism doesn&#39;t work; because, in a situation where people are absolutely equal, one ambitious person can rise to the top and take complete control, under the guise of just helping the country to run smoothly. This is what Stalin did in the USSR. Communism is the perfect system for perfect people, but sadly there are few perfect people in the world. Like it or not, true Communism is a breeding ground for brutal dictatorships.
This is the average "communism doesn&#39;t work" post. In case you haven&#39;t noticed, there is more than leninist fascistic "socialism" to "choose". You need to do a bit more of research.

[Black Radical]

Originally posted by Virgin Molotov Cocktail+Feb 4 2005, 09:00 AM--> (Virgin Molotov Cocktail @ Feb 4 2005, 09:00 AM) Hey, remember when Dr. Fredrick Banting discovered insulin, and refused to patent it? Wow, that wasn&#39;t very self-interested&#33; Way to subvert the market, you commie fuck-up&#33;


http://www.cbc.ca/greatest/top_ten/nominee/banting&#045;frederick.html
In a selfless move, the quartet decided not to seek a patent for their life-saving serum, a move that surely cost them a fortune. Instead, they sold the rights to their formulation to U of T for &#036;1 as a means of ensuring that insulin could be affordably manufactured for years to come. [/b]
If that was the goal it certainly didn&#39;t succeed. The price of insulin is kept artificiaally high because it is a product that diebetics canot live without.
I often use it as an example of how the market isn&#39;t always about supply and demand.