What is Property?

[RedLenin]

How do you define property? When you say property are you refering specifically to the means of production, or are you refering to things like the computer I am typing on? Or perhaps a better question would be how do you distinguish property from possesion? Is my computer my possesion, or my property? I am bit confused on how to distinguish property from possesion, so please help me to understand.

[MysticArcher]

I would think property refers to the means of production and any grossly unnecessary items that we'd call personal possessions today

like having 10 cars, you only can drive one, so I'd consider the other 9 part of the property that would be referred to when people talk about redistribution

if the concern is that people in a communist society would come in to your house and take your stuff why would they ?

they could just go get their own stuff (remember no money so cost isn't a factor in whether you can get an item)

[RedStarOverChina]

That's a good question...I gotta admit i always thought of them being the same...I guess we need some expert opinions on this...

However, both of them are only human illusions because they suggest private ownership.

What makes me the owner of my pencil? absolutely nothing. I dont have my name on it, nor would anyone identify it as being mine if they see it. It is "my property" because everyone agrees that it is mine.

It's a deep rootted human fantancy that makes us think that we are capable of "owning" properties such as land.

Thus, private ownership makes no logical sense. It's only natural to abolish it.

[ComradeRed]

What is property? Property is theft. If I steal your computer, your life, your possessions, they are now my property. Whether I give you green paper as justification is irrelevant, just as the aspect of utility is irrelevant. If it is beneficial for you to become a slave, it doesn't justify your subjegation to slavery nor does it justify slavery.

[NovelGentry]

There was a thread on Private Property vs. Personal Property where we discussed the idea of "property" itself, or at least it was brought up and a certain definition was agreed upon by me and another. You might want to search around for that thread.

[Abstrakt]

Originally posted by [email protected] 3 2005, 10:23 PM
What makes me the owner of my pencil? absolutely nothing. I dont have my name on it, nor would anyone identify it as being mine if they see it. It is "my property" because everyone agrees that it is mine.


Good point :)

[Guest1]

For me the problem isn't with the term property itself, but the idea of private property.

There's a difference between private property and personal property.

That line is not always clear, but I don't think anyone would suggest that we seek to destroy all forms of personal property. We do, however, seek to destroy the idea of ownership as an inherent, inalienable right.

[Abstrakt]

Is our only property...Ourselves?

[Outlaw289]

Originally posted by [email protected] 3 2005, 10:23 PM





However, both of them are only human illusions because they suggest private ownership.

Private ownership is very real. Private property is recognition of the power of the individual's claim to the world


What makes me the owner of my pencil? absolutely nothing. I dont have my name on it, nor would anyone identify it as being mine if they see it. It is "my property" because everyone agrees that it is mine.

What makes the pencil your is that YOU worked for it, YOU went to the store, YOU bought it with YOUR own MONEY. That is how you know it is yours. Now, this fact, as you have said, can be disputed. Thius is where government comes in. Government is given a monopoly on force , which it uses to decide matters of private ownership when its disputed. If someone wants to steal all yuor pencils because the working class made them and you bought them with your dirty profits, the Government's ONLY RESPONSIBILITY TO YOU is to make sure you get your pencils. The government does not need to redistribute my wealth or yours, provide me with an education, or do the host of centralized taks that governments have so proved themselves throughout history to be incapable of handling.


It's a deep rootted human fantancy that makes us think that we are capable of "owning" properties such as land.
Thus, private ownership makes no logical sense. It's only natural to abolish it.

We can own land. We split it up into sections and buy it, preferbaly from a controlled source (most notably from the government or a corporation)

Private ownership makes perfect sense. Private ownership endows the individual with economic power (be it collossal or meager) and gives him a claim to the world. Of course, that would run contradictory to your communist pseudo-utopia, and crush your brutal realization of a united slavedom

[Abstrakt]

...Ouch

[NovelGentry]

Private ownership makes perfect sense. Private ownership endows the individual with economic power (be it collossal or meager) and gives him a claim to the world. Of course, that would run contradictory to your communist pseudo-utopia, and crush your brutal realization of a united slavedom

It doesn't crush any realization/belief of ours, we simply disagree with it. Private ownership does indeed endow an individual with economic power, however, private ownership is an illusion for most people. This was also covered under the Private Property vs. Personal Property Thread.

http://www.revolutionaryleft.com/index.php?showtopic=31216

[Guest1]

Originally posted by [email protected] 3 2005, 10:28 PM
Private ownership is very real. Private property is recognition of the power of the individual's claim to the world
What claim?

No one owes you anything, you have no claim to anything.


What makes the pencil your is that YOU worked for it, YOU went to the store, YOU bought it with YOUR own MONEY. That is how you know it is yours. Now, this fact, as you have said, can be disputed. Thius is where government comes in. Government is given a monopoly on force , which it uses to decide matters of private ownership when its disputed. If someone wants to steal all yuor pencils because the working class made them and you bought them with your dirty profits, the Government's ONLY RESPONSIBILITY TO YOU is to make sure you get your pencils. The government does not need to redistribute my wealth or yours, provide me with an education, or do the host of centralized taks that governments have so proved themselves throughout history to be incapable of handling.
Oh, you mean the money that is given most to the people who do the least?

You know, for a meritocracy, Capitalism has an awful lot of rewarding lazyness.

From each according to their abilities to each according to their need is simpler, more just, and more efficient.


We can own land. We split it up into sections and buy it, preferbaly from a controlled source (most notably from the government or a corporation)

Private ownership makes perfect sense. Private ownership endows the individual with economic power (be it collossal or meager) and gives him a claim to the world. Of course, that would run contradictory to your communist pseudo-utopia, and crush your brutal realization of a united slavedom
Ooh, I divided the land with an imaginary line the green fairies told me to draw, and created a nation out of it.

Get over it, all these illusions, institutions based on nothing, are what leads to your collapses and wars.

Ownership is a childish idea. Time to grow up.

[NovelGentry]

I'm gonna expand on previous statements a bit more here, for anyone who's interested. After having looked around, for the sake of interest in formal definitions, private property is not even mentioned as such within most other definitions of property.

Instead there is a definition between "real property" (considered land) and "personal property" (considered tangible objects created through labor).


Property is defined as the right, legal or moral, to ultimately determine the use and control of something, including the right to transfer such rights to others. -- From Wikipedia

Marx's condition for persona property is that it, unlike other forms of property, is the product of a wholely singular effort. Private property, however, Marx suits as property characterized by a specific social condition (that it is privatized, stripped from it's rightful creators, the working class, or in communist society, the whole of society).

Property in general, ignoring the definition of land property, which indeed cannot be privtized with any justification, would be what the widely accepted definition of personal property is, constructed by the working class under socialism, and society as a whole under a socialized production force.

Perhaps the reactionary above stated it best that to privatize property it is to establish it as an economic power. Indeed it is, it is the foundation of capital itself. This is precisely what we wish to abolish. That economic leverage determined by the private property people "own."

[The Garbage Disposal Unit]

a) I don't know what the hell Comrade Red is talking about.

b) The primary distinction is generally what one actually uses. Possession is defined by that. I possess and make use of this 40 of cheap 10% beer. If I owned a factory, chances are I wouldn't use it - I'd hold a title, but I get the distinct feeling I'd have other people working there - in which case THEY would possess it. Understand. It's simple. Madfunsimple.

[ComradeRed]

a) I don't know what the hell Comrade Red is talking about. Proudhon's What is property? might help. (http://marxists.org/reference/subject/economics/proudhon/property/index.htm)

[The Garbage Disposal Unit]

a) Read it. :)

b) Misread yr post comrade, haha. Sorry about that. *Feels more than a little stupid*

[seraphim]

possession
noun
1 [U] when you have or own something:
The possession of large amounts of money does not ensure happiness.
FORMAL I have in my possession a letter which may be of interest to you.
FORMAL He was found in possession of explosives.

2 [C usually plural] something that you own or that you are carrying with you at any time:
Please remember to take all your personal possessions with you when you leave the aircraft.

3 [C usually plural] the countries that are ruled by another country:
a former overseas possession

4 LEGAL get/take possession of sth to start to use and control a building or piece of land, whether you own it or not:
We've already bought the house but we won't take possession of it until May.

property (THINGS OWNED)
noun
1 [U] an object or objects that belong to someone:
The club does not accept responsibility for loss of or damage to club members' personal property.
Both books have 'property of Her Majesty's Government' stamped inside them.
Children need to be taught to have respect for other people's property.

2 [C or U] a building or area of land, or both together:
He owns a number of properties in the centre of London.
The notice said 'Private Property, Keep Off.
Yes, I've bought my own house - I'm now a man/woman of property!

3 [U] SPECIALIZED the legal right to own and use something


taken from the cambridge english dictionary

[Abstrakt]

Hmm. There is so many definitions, what point are we(my fellow posters) trying to create?

[Livetrueordie]

Well Locke Says if a man puts a Fence around virigin land, does the man own the fence or the land within the fence also. Its just assumed that the land within the fence is the man's land...

[Livetrueordie]

it reallly hard to classify.Like if u Picked up 6 sticks off the floor and created a chair would that chair now be yours because u put work into that chair and made improvements yet the sticks weren't yours in the first place. Do u own your efforts but not the chair???