EU ban urged on communist symbols

[Karl Marx's Camel]

EU ban urged on communist symbols

Several European Parliament members have urged the EU to match a proposed ban on Nazi signs with one on communist symbols like the hammer and sickle.


The MEPs, from Lithuania, Estonia, the Czech Republic, Hungary and Slovakia, said communist symbols were a reminder of suffering under Soviet-era regimes.

EU debate over Nazi symbols was fuelled by outcry after the UK's Prince Harry wore a swastika to a costume party.

A spokesman said the EU had no plans to include communist signs in any new ban.


'Equal treatment'

Possible measures forbidding Nazi symbols are to be discussed by EU members this month as part of proposed rules to outlaw xenophobia and racism across the 25-member bloc.

Correspondents say any such ban would be fraught with difficulty.

The group of centre-right MEPs put their case over communist symbols to EU justice and home affairs commissioner Franco Frattini.

"We would like to have an equal treatment of the other evil totalitarian regime of the communist system," said Jozsef Szajer, a Hungarian MEP, according to the Associated Press news agency.

Czech MEP Jan Zahradil agreed: "If we decide to ban one, we should decide to ban all of them."

But Mr Frattini's spokesman, Frisco Roscam Abbing, said the commissioner felt it "might not be appropriate" to include communist symbols in the context of discussions on xenophobia and anti-Semitism.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4234335.stm

[RedStarOverChina]

ahhh! Are they ignorant, or are they just trying to be mean?

[bolshevik butcher]

I doubt this'll get through anyway.

[Veritas]

I don't think that symbols should be banned, that's ridiculous.

[refuse_resist]

That really sucks to hear.

So many people in former Eastern bloc nations have been brainwashed to despise anything that has to do with anti-capitalist, revolutionary ideology. :(

[pandora]

While the United States has increased the neo-liberalism and globalization to new levels the EU has been trying to catch up with privatization through increasingly draconian measures such as the new unemployment laws in Germany, etc.

This is a mark against the former USSR, many citizens in Russia long for the security communism had for all citizens as we all know prostitiution and destitiution have reached all time highs. To encourage movement of the Eastern bloc away from Communits ideals towards increasingly privatized and neo-liberal values the US is encouraging world wide. This move is nothing more than a fearful reaction to increase polarization away from the security Communism once offered.

But such actions are foolish and increase awareness that Communism is the alternative to non-stop free market Capitalism.

[Severian]

But it reflects a problem: if you support the ban on Nazi symbols, you're leaving yourself open for this kind of pseudo-equivalency.

[seraphim]

what a load of bollocks

[Commie Rat]

if they are banning them because they represent antisemitism-racism-ect ect ect then there should be no need to ban the H&S

but

if they are banning them because they arn't in the middle

left- - - - middile - - - - -right

H&S Swastika

then maybe that is acceptable
but i still done condon the suppresion of any sorta symbolism


Edity; sorrry about the crude explantion couldn't find the word to say wat a meant

[h&s]

The day that ban goes through I'm going to hang my red flag out of my window....with pride :P
In a way though they do have a point, but only through ignorance.

[Donnie]

Ahh man that sucks. I smell Cappitalist Bias in the EU. Why has the capitalist system filled childrens minds with such anti-communist feeling. At the age of 17 i decided to really understand what communism was about. I was fed up of secondary school telling what to think and not what to think. So i went onto the internet and decided to read about Communism, then went down the the libarary and read afew books on Marxist thought and of course the Communist Manefesto.

People have just got a narowminded view about communism. As soon as you start talking about Marx's Ideas and Anarchist societies, people just pass the idea off. And say that Communism will never work becuase "look at Russia". I really get frustrated by people's ignorance.

BTW...i wish i had a Communist Flag :( Is there anywhere, where i can get one? I look in all the shops that look sort of Lefty, Ive even searched the City of Leeds for shops that sell Communist flags. I just wanna get one so that i can feel proud of what i believe in.
Please tell me where i can get one!!!

[Anarchist Freedom]

I dont understand the relevance of this. I mean they can say something is illegal but people still do it do they not? What are the communists in europe just going to be like eh ok lets make a new symbol? probably not. The EU never ceases to amaze me with how much bullshit they get through parliment.

[Anarchist Freedom]

donnie check out my Knowledge (http://www.google.com) ;)


Edit w00t 900 hundred posts baby!

[bolshevik butcher]

Originally posted by [email protected] 4 2005, 09:38 AM
But it reflects a problem: if you support the ban on Nazi symbols, you're leaving yourself open for this kind of pseudo-equivalency.
Are you? I mean there's nothing racist about communist symbols.

[Scumcat Esq.]

But still these symbols represent a movement or ideas that are more radical then their moderateness. So they can hardly choose who are better: ultra rightists or ultra leftists and think both of them are dangerous for stability.
Besides as I see a few like Russia and its former name and embodiment in Europe... mean that for many U.S.S.R. is the empire of evil which opressed, opressed, opressed and nothing else. H&S is inseparable from the soviets.

[bolshevik butcher]

Originally posted by Scumcat [email protected] 4 2005, 09:23 PM
But still these symbols represent a movement or ideas that are more radical then their moderateness. So they can hardly choose who are better: ultra rightists or ultra leftists and think both of them are dangerous for stability.
Besides as I see a few like Russia and its former name and embodiment in Europe... mean that for many U.S.S.R. is the empire of evil which opressed, opressed, opressed and nothing else. H&S is inseparable from the soviets.
If this is about danger to stability shouldn't all but conservative slogins be band. There are wuite a lot of socialists in the european parliment.

[Scumcat Esq.]

Prolly. I'm not them and I'm not a conservative so I'm not sure. But no stuff like "victoria o muerte" and "hasta la victoria simpre" as well as "the proletarians of all countries...". That's for sure.
When they prepare the legislation then we'll see what SHOULD be banned...

That's cool that there're a lot of socialists in european parliament... but that's bad that there're not many socialist countries in Europe...

[Lamanov]

Originally posted by [email protected] 4 2005, 04:56 AM
That really sucks to hear.

So many people in former Eastern bloc nations have been brainwashed to despise anything that has to do with anti-capitalist, revolutionary ideology. :(
well, its not like soviet block was a paradise on earth [although i see you like to quote Stalin]. i wouldnt call them brainwashed, just confused over what is LEFT and what is "LEFT".

[ComradeChris]

I heard that Hindus are tryiing to unban the Swastika. People seem to rally behind symbols...it's like freedom of speech.

[NYer565]

I don't see a problem with it. If they're going to ban the Nazi Symbol (under which 11 million in Europe died) why shouldn't they ban the old hammer and sickle. (Under which 20 million+ in Europe died)

[monkeydust]

Equal treatment?

As soon as Communists start being racist, xenophobic and spraying swastikas all over cemetaries I'll accept their argument. Until then.....

[NYer565]

Originally posted by [email protected] 3 2005, 07:58 PM
I don't think that symbols should be banned, that's ridiculous.
Very good point. Any ban on any symbol would be a movement against freedom, mainly that of speech. If people want to be Nazis...let them be. If people want to be communists...let them be.

[ComradeChris]

Originally posted by [email protected] 5 2005, 05:50 PM
Equal treatment?

As soon as Communists start being racist, xenophobic and spraying swastikas all over cemetaries I'll accept their argument. Until then.....
I agree. It's the people who are in power now who should have their symbols banned. They want the unequal societies that exploit developing nations. Nike should be banned right of the bat. But that goes back to the ancient symbols again. :unsure:

[marxist_socialist_aussie]

i can sort of see where this purposal is comming from but I strongly disagree. Really, the symbols of the nazi's only meant a few things, bigotry, racism and death yet the H&S as well as other communist symbols means much more and have far greater stories behind them, some bad yes, but many good.

[bolshevik butcher]

Originally posted by [email protected] 5 2005, 09:48 PM
I don't see a problem with it. If they're going to ban the Nazi Symbol (under which 11 million in Europe died) why shouldn't they ban the old hammer and sickle. (Under which 20 million+ in Europe died)
ok let's also ban all flags and religous symbols think about the millions that died under those?

[BOZG]

Originally posted by [email protected] 4 2005, 10:38 AM
But it reflects a problem: if you support the ban on Nazi symbols, you're leaving yourself open for this kind of pseudo-equivalency.
I think you're spot on. I think the problem lies in that most people look to the bourgeois state in a 'protector' role. When the idea of no platform for fascism is raised, it's viewed that the state must enforce this policy rather than looking at the social power of the communities and unions to prevent the rise of fascism. It is not the task of the bourgeois, nor even a socialist state to crush fascism but the obligation of the working class itself.

[YKTMX]

This really pisses me off.

I hope they fucking try this shit - I'll tattoo the hammer and sickle on my forehead, fly to Strasbourg and fucking piss on them as they walk by.

Ban the hammer and sickle? What a load of offensive fucking rubbish.


As you can see, this slightly upsets me.

[BOZG]

Just a tad....

[American_Trotskyist]

You can't ban Swasticas and Hammers and Sickles. Banning the Swashtica, the NAZI were horrible, but to ban a symbol because it scares you is dumb and you won't stop the movement of the NAZIs in Europe. I doubt the hammer and sivkle will be banned because the communist parties are still somewhat active in European governments and I doubt that they will let the EU vote to ban that. If they do, this only shows that the capitalists are afraid of the Power of Communism. This reminds me of the opening lines of the communist manifesto,

A spectre is haunting Europe — the spectre of communism. All the powers of old Europe have entered into a holy alliance to exorcise this spectre: Pope and Tsar, Metternich and Guizot, French Radicals and German police-spies.

Where is the party in opposition that has not been decried as communistic by its opponents in power? Where is the opposition that has not hurled back the branding reproach of communism, against the more advanced opposition parties, as well as against its reactionary adversaries?

Two things result from this fact:

I. Communism is already acknowledged by all European powers to be itself a power.

II. It is high time that Communists should openly, in the face of the whole world, publish their views, their aims, their tendencies, and meet this nursery tale of the Spectre of Communism with a manifesto of the party itself
Could it be anymore true now?

[monkeydust]

Banning the Swashtica, the NAZI were horrible, but to ban a symbol because it scares you is dumb and you won't stop the movement of the NAZIs in Europe

It's not as if Europeans are sitting around thinking "oh no, swastikas!! Quick, ban them all!" That's not the case at all.

It is the case, however, that Europeans want to ban swastikas and other nazi paraphernalia because such symbols help to spread the movement amongst the ordinary populace. The Neo-Nazi German National party, after all, recently polled over 10% in the Saxony elections.

Of course, the threat of Nazism rising again is certainly a smally one - but why take the chance? Let's not forget that the Nazi party only originally rose to power because of the tolerance of the Weimar Republic towards it.

[CommieDuK]

they want u let all the ppl forget the communist regime!! damn on EU

[dso79]

It is the case, however, that Europeans want to ban swastikas and other nazi paraphernalia because such symbols help to spread the movement amongst the ordinary populace. The Neo-Nazi German National party, after all, recently polled over 10% in the Saxony elections.


I don’t believe using Nazi paraphernalia makes parties like the NPD more popular. In fact, it scares many potential voters away. People usually vote for such parties because they support their anti-immigration policies or something, not because they support Nazism.

[monkeydust]

I don’t believe using Nazi paraphernalia makes parties like the NPD more popular. In fact, it scares many potential voters away. People usually vote for such parties because they support their anti-immigration policies or something, not because they support Nazism.


True.

However the actual proposals being made are not simply to ban Nazi symbolism, but actually to ban neo-Nazi parties such as the NPD.

[Severian]

Originally posted by Clenched Fist+Feb 4 2005, 03:04 PM--> (Clenched Fist @ Feb 4 2005, 03:04 PM)
[email protected] 4 2005, 09:38 AM
But it reflects a problem: if you support the ban on Nazi symbols, you're leaving yourself open for this kind of pseudo-equivalency.
Are you? I mean there's nothing racist about communist symbols. [/b]
They can say "all extremists and totalitarians should be banned" etc.

BOZG, well said.

[chebol]

Fine, ban the whole freakin' lot.
Just remember to start with this one- $. Followed by £, ¥, etc.
If it is a measure of who has died under a symbol, surely that of international Capital comes first- in anyone's book.

[bolshevik butcher]

The facist symbols are all about racism, communism isn't.

[BOZG]

Thanks for stating the obvious Clenched Fist, but the likelihood is that the legislation would never be specific and would merely use broad words like "totalitarian", "extremist" as Severian has already said which could easily be manipulated to fit any organisation.

[dso79]

However the actual proposals being made are not simply to ban Nazi symbolism, but actually to ban neo-Nazi parties such as the NPD.

It’s pretty hard to ban political parties in a democracy. As long as they don’t do anything illegal (and most parties make sure they don‘t), you can’t do anything about them. And even if someone does find a way to ban them, the party can usually continue under a different name.

For example:
A while ago the Belgian “Vlaams Blok” was banned for being racist, so they changed their name to “Vlaams Belang” and continued as if nothing had happened.

[BOZG]

Actually, there was an attempt to ban the NPD recently in Germany but when the Constitutional Court, which I think is the highest court in Germany, investigated them, it was discovered that the entire party was riddled with German intelligence agents, from footsoldiers to leadership. The Court was apparently unable to distinguish between the militancy and actions of actual fascists or whether it had been German agents trying to push the NPD into doing something which could see them banned.

[Se7en]

Originally posted by Clenched [email protected] 7 2005, 11:03 AM
The facist symbols are all about racism, communism isn't.
fascists don't have a monopoly on the swastika.

the banning of any symbol is ridiculous.

[RedAnarchist]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4248425.stm

Well, at least our Communist symbols wont be banned.

I hate the way these people talk about Communism, as if the only real Communism that which was found in Moscow, Beijing, Warsaw and other palces.

[Iepilei]

Communism is an ideology of a person; it can never be applied to a state, because a state is not a single entity. Socialism on global scale would only be it's true definition, and as we know, this hasn't happened yet.

Unless the capitalists believe what Stalin said about "socialism in one country."