Communism's Death Toll

[rightsaidtom]

Communists and socialists will often tell you that capitalism "kills" the poor. Statistically, though, it is communism that is the cause of the greatest massacre in the history of the world. This results from starvation due to failed central economies, political killings of those defiant of the system, and killings due to the abuse of power and tyranny inherent and encouraged by an unchecked system. Approximately 100 MILLION deaths by direct murder worldwide can be traced to communism.

- Soviet Union: between 20 and 50 million were put to death at the hands of this evil empire. (some estimates exceed upward of 50 million. As people were sent to camps, the Soviets often deleted all records of that persons existence making exact totals hard to find) Intentional starvings and man made famines were a major killer in the USSR. Worse were the gulag concentration camps (the Soviet equal to Hitler's concentration camps). At one point in 1940 Stalin held over 10 million people in the gulag camps. Enemies of the government were enslaved here then worked and tortured to death. Others were lined up in forests, shot, and buried in unmarked graves. In one Polish site from Stalin's occupation of Poland after treaty with Hitler in 1940, almost 5 thousand captured Polish POW's were lined up and shot at one time. Other cases involved 10 to 15 thousand being lined up and shot. The majority of these killings took place under Stalin's regime, often referred to as a "reign of terror." Stalin is estimated to have put 20% of Russia's population to death.

- Cambodia: Under the Kmehr Rouge and regime of Pol Pot in the 1970's, one of the most extreme forms of communism ever was attempted. 2 million were massacred in killing fields in attempts to move toward this "equal form of communism." The reason behind these massacres came from an attempt to build an "equal" society though the only equality which resulted was death. Those who had distinguishing differences from the government's planned economy of farmers were murdered. Scientists, doctors, laborers, and teachers with non-agricultural professions were targeted and murdered because they differed from the agricultural profession and created inequalities in jobs. Pol Pot murdered an estimated one fourth of the population of Cambodia.

- China: Mao Tse-Tung's "Great Step Forward" is widely known as the greatest disaster in attempt of a centralized economy. Countless millions were murdered and starved to death in China during this period. China also established a series of gulag concentration camps under Mao, complete with slave labor employing over 10 million people on numerous occasions. In fact, China still employs widespread forced labor today. Estimates on China suggest the total to be about 40 million dead.

- Vietnam: Though the totals on Vietnam are unknown due to poor record keeping and the fact that Vietnam remains communist today, several hundred thousands were murdered in Stalinist fashion of execution and slave labor camps.

- Others: other death tolls caused by communism by failed schemes in communist China and other communist countries add to the count as do the political prisoners of communism: many who only dared to think freely and differently from the government. Tito's Yugoslavia has estimates of around 1 million deaths to its credit. Mass murders occurred under the communist/socialist regimes of Fidel Castro in Cuba, Kim Il Sung's North Korea, Sandinista's in Nicaragua, Laos, and Ethiopia. In many of these places we will never know the extent of death caused as a DIRECT result of communism and socialism.


suggested link: http://www.gmu.edu/departments/economics/b...um/musframe.htm (http://www.gmu.edu/departments/economics/bcaplan/museum/musframe.htm)

[Martyr_Machine]

Waits for the "but communism has no government" speech. :rolleyes:

[rightsaidtom]

Originally posted by [email protected] 3 2005, 05:19 PM
Waits for the "but communism has no government" speech. :rolleyes:
Yeah, that seems to be one of these guys main points of argument.

[Martyr_Machine]

Originally posted by rightsaidtom+Feb 3 2005, 05:21 PM--> (rightsaidtom @ Feb 3 2005, 05:21 PM)
[email protected] 3 2005, 05:19 PM
Waits for the "but communism has no government" speech. :rolleyes:
Yeah, that seems to be one of these guys main points of argument. [/b]
Yeah, just ignore the fact that for communism to work a centralized authority has to exist to shoot the people who dare to speak out against collectivism. Communists irritate me.

[Sabocat]

Communists irritate me.

Often things that you are incapable of understanding can be irritating.

[Sabocat]

And thanks BTW for regurgitating the Black Book of Communism figures for us.


Wow....that's the first time any of us had seen those numbers. :lol: :lol:

[Martyr_Machine]

Originally posted by [email protected] 3 2005, 07:58 PM

Communists irritate me.

Often things that you are incapable of understanding can be irritating.
I used to be a marxist. I understand it just fine.

[Sabocat]

Sure you do. So what happened? Mommy and Daddy take your Xbox away until you promised them not to talk about communism anymore?

[Martyr_Machine]

Originally posted by [email protected] 3 2005, 08:02 PM
Sure you do. So what happened? Mommy and Daddy take your Xbox away until you promised them not to talk about communism anymore?
At some point my IQ reached a level greater than that of a toaster.

[encephalon]

it's sad that you villify something you don't even bother reading about. If you had any knowledge of communist/socialist theory half your questions and comments wouldn't even come up.. repeatedly.

Cambodia, China, Vietnam, etc. were not communist movements. They were nationalist. Read some history.

The Soviet Union was a tragedy. One is quick to forget, however, the horrors done in one's own ideology in the face of what they think is an enemy

If communism is your enemy, then the soviet union wasn't. Communists around the world immediately picked up on the nature of the USSR, and did not support it. Of course, you wouldn't know that because you don't actually look into things that you try to villify, but simply spout forth what you subjectively believe, true or false, and lump vastly different things together as the same to suit your personal agenda.

[encephalon]

At some point my IQ reached a level greater than that of a toaster.

Evidently it didn't.

[Martyr_Machine]

If communism is your enemy, then the soviet union wasn't. Communists around the world immediately picked up on the nature of the USSR, and did not support it. Of course, you wouldn't know that because you don't actually look into things that you try to villify, but simply spout forth what you subjectively believe, true or false, and lump vastly different things together as the same to suit your personal agenda.

You ont get it do you? We dont hate communism because it gets screwed up every so often, we hate it because its a collectivist anti-freedom ideology.

[encephalon]

You ont get it do you? We dont hate communism because it gets screwed up every so often, we hate it because its a collectivist anti-freedom ideology.


And it is with this statement that you display your lack of knowledge concerning that which is communism.

Does communism place society above the individual? No, communism's basis lies in the fact that society must serve the individual.

Does communism promote the degradation of freedom? No, communism's primary goal is freedom.

Freedom to kill? To exploit? To take advantage of another? No. As far as I know, most modern ideologies claim to be against such acts.

Freedom to live? To peace? To well-being? To actual freedom? By all means, yes.

It's truly rather humorous that you claim to have once been a marxist. You don't even know the first thing about it.

[RevolutionaryLeftist]

One of the reasons why so many people were put to death in the USSR was because of a bastard by the name of joseph stalin. he was literally insane and was scared of anyone who threatened his power. Millions die when the guy at the helm of the country is a mad man.

[Invader Zim]

Originally posted by Martyr_Machine+Feb 3 2005, 09:03 PM--> (Martyr_Machine @ Feb 3 2005, 09:03 PM)
[email protected] 3 2005, 08:02 PM
Sure you do. So what happened? Mommy and Daddy take your Xbox away until you promised them not to talk about communism anymore?
At some point my IQ reached a level greater than that of a toaster. [/b]
If ever there is a job which involves making toast, I will give you a call!

[RevolutionaryLeftist]

Mao's great step forward was fuckin' stupid. He was a good guy, but a bad leader.

[Dead Mike]

so when millions of people die because of communism it doesnt prove anything because it wasnt REAL communism?

[New Tolerance]

Would you like me to list all the capitalist death counts in India and other third world countries that tried 'capitalism'?

[Non-Sectarian Bastard!]

So when people die of something non-existant, it's the fault of the non-existent?

And why are you cappies so bothered by morality?

[rightsaidtom]

Originally posted by [email protected] 3 2005, 08:35 PM
One of the reasons why so many people were put to death in the USSR was because of a bastard by the name of joseph stalin. he was literally insane and was scared of anyone who threatened his power. Millions die when the guy at the helm of the country is a mad man.
Just like every Commie leader to ever exist.

yeah yeah i know, "th3y wwurnt t3h commiez!11!!"

[Non-Sectarian Bastard!]

Why are you miss-spelling. Again why are you bothered with morality?

[rightsaidtom]

The sheep knows about morality?

It was making fun of the hilarity of you guys claiming every communist leader recognized by the entire world (other than you guys) wasn't a communist.

I also find it rib-cracking hilarious that the commies have Che t-shirts/lunch boxes/ wrist watches/clocks/ calendars and so on for sale. Usually right next door to American Eagle at the mall no less!

[Dead Mike]

Originally posted by "New Tolerance"+--> ("New Tolerance") Would you like me to list all the capitalist death counts in India and other third world countries that tried 'capitalism'?[/b]

what for? it wouldnt disprove the fact that marxist ideology is directly responsible for more purges and mass killings than any other system in the history of mankind

besides india and those thirdworld countrys werent TRUE capatalist:D


"Non-Sectarian Bastard!"
So when people die of something non-existant, it's the fault of the non-existent?

And why are you cappies so bothered by morality?

im not bothered by morality at all

and since stalin was a marxist, yes i would say that people dying beacause of his marxist government would be the fault of marxism

[New Tolerance]

what for? it wouldnt disprove the fact that marxist ideology is directly responsible for more purges and mass killings than any other system in the history of mankind

By stating this you have shown me that you don't know anything about the figures that I can present. The lack of social democratic reforms caused famines and high infant mortality rates in India that ended in 120 million death over 30 years.


besides india and those thirdworld countrys werent TRUE capatalist:D

Yeh, I await the speech that there was never a capitalist country.


and since stalin was a marxist, yes i would say that people dying beacause of his marxist government would be the fault of marxism

I wonder what you would say if Stalin and Lenin called themselves "capitalists".

[Non-Sectarian Bastard!]

Actually I am a human. It would be hard to type with hoves.

Laugh all you want, but you claimed the existence of "communist countries". A no-state state so to speak.

Nor did any of us claim that there were no communist leaders in existence. Lenin, par example, intended well, but choose a wrong method.

And since we don't live in communism. We will have adapt to the capitalist system. There is no "From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs." yet.

Furthermore not everyone selling Che shirts is communist or even socialist. The seller is likely to be a capitalist, on the search for profits.

[rightsaidtom]

Furthermore not everyone selling Che shirts is communist or even socialist. The seller is likely to be a capitalist, on the search for profits.

We even make money off of you fools.

[New Tolerance]

We even make money off of you fools.

and We are using your profit-driven incentive to help us spread our ideology.

[Dead Mike]

By stating this you have shown me that you don't know anything about the figures that I can present. The lack of social democratic reforms caused famines and high infant mortality rates in India that ended in 120 million death over 30 years.


your deflecting the issue

theres many reasons why india is impoverished, overpopulation and lack of proper infrastructure throughout the country are the main reasons

whereas stalin directly singed the deaths of millions, this is indefensible, thus the deflection
you can slice and dice the numbers all day, its still the same


Yeh, I await the speech that there was never a capitalist country.
i was being fecetious


I wonder what you would say if Stalin and Lenin called themselves "capitalists".
im sure they called themselves lots of things, but they were marxists, deny it!

[Non-Sectarian Bastard!]

You contradict your earlier post. Inwhich you imply that sellers of Che shirts are communists. And you do not make profits of the selling of Che shirts, nor are you gaining from the selling of Che shirts. There is no "We" in capitalist.

[rightsaidtom]

Originally posted by New [email protected] 3 2005, 09:24 PM

We even make money off of you fools.

and We are using your profit-driven incentive to help us spread our ideology.
...to 13 year old skater kids. :D

[New Tolerance]

your deflecting the issue

theres many reasons why india is impoverished, overpopulation and lack of proper infrastructure throughout the country are the main reasons

whereas stalin directly singed the deaths of millions, this is indefensible, thus the deflection
you can slice and dice the numbers all day, its still the same


Deflecting the issue how? What makes you think that I deny what Stalin did, or that I'm trying to protect him?

The rest is so disintegrative it almost make me laugh.

-> It's ok that an economic system kills millions of people, even though it's not ok for a political system to kill people.

What justifies this?


i was being fecetious

so you DO acknowledge that they are capitalist?


im sure they called themselves lots of things, but they were marxists, deny it!

evidence?

Here's one for you to think about:

I am a CAPITALIST! ;)


...to 13 year old skater kids.

convert them early so that they will be more convicted :D .

[Dead Mike]

Deflecting the issue how? What makes you think that I deny what Stalin did, or that I'm trying to protect him?

the conversation was about communisms death toll and you chaged it to capitalists death toll, thats called deflection


Communism is so disintegrative it almost make me laugh.

*fixed*


-> It's ok that an economic system kills millions of people, even though it's not ok for a political system to kill people.

What justifies this?


its not okay for a economic OR political system to kill millions of people, communism's economic and political system is guilty of both

so you DO acknowledge that they are capitalist?
whos they?



im sure they called themselves lots of things, but they were marxists, deny it!


evidence?
its common knowledge so it would be a moot point
i suppose you would like me to prove that the earth is round now?


Here's one for you to think about:

I am a CAPITALIST!
heres something for you to think about, i am a communist :lol:
*FIXED*

[Jonathan Edwards]

Originally posted by [email protected] 3 2005, 08:07 PM
it's sad that you villify something you don't even bother reading about. If you had any knowledge of communist/socialist theory half your questions and comments wouldn't even come up.. repeatedly.

Cambodia, China, Vietnam, etc. were not communist movements. They were nationalist. Read some history.

The Soviet Union was a tragedy. One is quick to forget, however, the horrors done in one's own ideology in the face of what they think is an enemy

If communism is your enemy, then the soviet union wasn't. Communists around the world immediately picked up on the nature of the USSR, and did not support it. Of course, you wouldn't know that because you don't actually look into things that you try to villify, but simply spout forth what you subjectively believe, true or false, and lump vastly different things together as the same to suit your personal agenda.
And exactly who do you think founded communism? Karl Marx? No, no, comrade, it was Vladimir Lenin. Marx founded modern socialism, calling it communism after the Commune that ruled Paris during the French Revolution.

Therefore, the USSR was communism at its finest. Comrade, I must say that it is perplexing when I guarantee that you have never lived underneath a communist system (neither have I). You don't see Americans running to live in Cuba, but the other way around. :D

[Don't Change Your Name]

Originally posted by rightsaidtom+Feb 3 2005, 05:21 PM--> (rightsaidtom @ Feb 3 2005, 05:21 PM)
[email protected] 3 2005, 05:19 PM
Waits for the "but communism has no government" speech. :rolleyes:
Yeah, that seems to be one of these guys main points of argument. [/b]
...

[New Tolerance]

the conversation was about communisms death toll and you chaged it to capitalists death toll, thats called deflection

The conversation with the others might have been about the factual realities of "communist" (so called) death toll, but the conversation with me was about the ethnics of having a death toll period (if it was unclear before then let it be clear now). Further more, I don't deny the death tolls, what is there more to be said about it?


*fixed*

Your premise?


its not okay for a economic OR political system to kill millions of people, communism's economic and political system is guilty of both

So's are every economic and political system.


whos they?

India, Chile and other third world countries.


its common knowledge so it would be a moot point
i suppose you would like me to prove that the earth is round now?

common knowledge

Are you implying that you are reverting to using "common" sense?


heres something for you to think about, i am a communist
*FIXED*

Am I to presume that you have nothing real with which to address my point?

[Veritas]

What does this mean?
For each according to his abilities, For each according to his needs.

[GoaRedStar]

you cappie are so childish you actually need to redefine a word to try and win a argument.



if white calls it self black does that means that it is black.

[progressive thinker]

Communism has never had any government. No communist government. Not once ever. Any government which calls or called itself communist is lying. Therefore we start with a clean slate. In fact, maybe Karl Marx never even wrote the Communist Manifesto, it must have been those capitalist impressors. Speaking of which, we should ban the printing press and force those damn monks to handwrite copies of the Communist Manifesto, that way religion will not be there to tell people that we are not gods. But then how would we get people to read our book since it could only be reproduced about once every couple of weeks? Ah well, those greedy capitalistic bastards are responsible for everything.

If you could go back in history who would you rather kill: Adam Smith or the Founding Fathers? Its a difficult decision, because without Smith we wouldn't have any coffee shops to discuss our communisitic impulses at while drinking a latte. But if it wasn't for the Founding Fathers we could have waited a couple of years and then the Communists would not have a damnable Consitution to deal with. We could just wipe it aside like every other country we never said we conquered.

Well at least the British are proud of their empire that faded long ago. Communists seem to agree that they...oops...we never even conquered a farm. I doubt Orwell was talking about communism in Animal Farm and if he was, then he's just a greedy capitalist.

[Dead Mike]

The conversation with the others might have been about the factual realities of "communist" (so called) death toll, but the conversation with me was about the ethnics of having a death toll period (if it was unclear before then let it be clear now). Further more, I don't deny the death tolls, what is there more to be said about it?

well im glad that you do not condone mass murder [im not flaming im just saying]

Your premise?
is obvious

So's are every economic and political system.
prove it

India, Chile and other third world countries.
what about them? im talking about communism

commonknowledge

Are you implying that you are reverting to using "common" sense?
reverting?


Am I to presume that you have nothing real with which to address my point?
i addressed your "point", you just didnt like the answer

[Zingu]

Originally posted by [email protected] 3 2005, 05:16 PM
- Soviet Union: between 20 and 50 million were put to death at the hands of this evil empire. (some estimates exceed upward of 50 million.

Numbers of HIGHLY distorted. When Gorbachev released the Cheka/OGPU/NKVD/KGB ect. files to the public, many of those accusations were never found to be true. More about this at this article, a good read:

Lies about the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics (http://www.northstarcompass.org/nsc9912/lies.htm)

The Ukranian "Holocast" (http://www.plp.org/books/Stalin/node68.html#SECTION00800000000000000000)

[New Tolerance]

is obvious

Then why don't you state it? Is communism D1 or D2? and why?


prove it

Comtemporary Capitalism -> Augusto Pinochet for example
Feudalism -> almost every single monarch has had political prisoners, and has stressed their populations economically by forcing them to help maintain the army (either through tax or food or both)
Pre-Feudalism -> same as above
Cave men -> is not a system as there are no power structures


what about them? im talking about communism

Do you have no short term memory? I asked you if you considered them to be capitalist.


reverting?

Common sense is merely the sense of the common and does not derive from that which is rational. It is to say that something is true simply because most people says it's true. If most people told you to jump off a bridge would you do it?


i addressed your "point", you just didnt like the answer

My point was that even though I'm not a "capitalist", I can still call myself one. And how was that reply of yours supposed to have addressed this? If it were one then it's not clear enough.

[Dead Mike]

I wonder what you would say if Stalin and Lenin called themselves "capitalists".



My point was that even though I'm not a "capitalist", I can still call myself one.

both of these quotes are youre's ^^

OWNED

[synthesis]

For Christ's sake, you capitalists are fucking retarded.

No "Communist" country has EVER called itself Communist! They have always been socialist! That's why we have United Soviet SOCIALIST Republics. Jesus, you people are stupid.

Just because a country is ruled by the Communist Party does not make it a Communist country. This has been a basic fact of Marxism from the very start.

Also, the fact that you've "anticipated" our counter-arguments ahead of time doesn't negate them if you don't refute them ahead of time as well. Morons.

[Zingu]

Originally posted by [email protected] 4 2005, 03:56 AM

No "Communist" country has EVER called itself Communist! They have always been socialist! That's why we have United Soviet SOCIALIST Republics. Jesus, you people are stupid.

To further that point, Krushchev himself said in a speech that the Soviet Union would be Communist somewhere in the 1980s, obviously, he was wrong.

[Taiga]

Originally posted by [email protected] 4 2005, 03:56 AM
For Christ's sake, you capitalists are fucking retarded.

No "Communist" country has EVER called itself Communist! They have always been socialist! That's why we have United Soviet SOCIALIST Republics. Jesus, you people are stupid.

True. They proclaimed themselves as on the way to communism. They were mistaken about the time, right......... )))

Just because a country is ruled by the Communist Party does not make it a Communist country. This has been a basic fact of Marxism from the very start.
True. My country is led by a Communist Party. And probably will be (the elections are on March,6!!!). But we are definitely not communist country. Yet :lol:

[Invader Zim]

Originally posted by [email protected] 3 2005, 10:20 PM

Furthermore not everyone selling Che shirts is communist or even socialist. The seller is likely to be a capitalist, on the search for profits.

We even make money off of you fools.
Judging by your posts, this may be extremely arrogant of me, but my intellect is far in excess of your own.

After all you do appear to be fan of Ayn Rand.

[New Tolerance]

both of these quotes are youre's ^^

OWNED

Unless you admitt that you making some sort of joke, then I am certain you are an open irrationalist.

By reading those two posts of mine, you should have realized that I had a consistent point: just because you call yourself something doesn't make you that thing.

As seen in my first post: Lenin and Stalin could have called themselves "capitalist" even though that's not necassarily the case. And my second post basically emphasizes this point again.

Your reply post doesn't even make any sense, you've got alot to answer for mister.

[Sabocat]

Commune that ruled Paris during the French Revolution.


LOL.

Idiot.

[The Garbage Disposal Unit]

And exactly who do you think founded communism? Karl Marx? No, no, comrade, it was Vladimir Lenin. Marx founded modern socialism, calling it communism after the Commune that ruled Paris during the French Revolution.


:lol:

Haha, fuck you evidently don't know anything about Marx, or the Paris Commune (Which , FYI, was in 1871, dumbass).

And cappies wonder why we don't want to deal with them on the rest of the board . . .

[synthesis]

Marx founded modern socialism, calling it communism after the Commune that ruled Paris during the French Revolution.

Christ. This needs to be quoted one more time for emphasis.

[Anarchist Freedom]

Argh I dont get you damn trolls. Its funny because you regurgatate soo much BS.I dont understand the relevance of posting this. Like one of the Leftists members on the website is one day going to be like OH DAMN I DIDNT KNOW THAT!!!!111. Then change his views. So what your doing is nothing more then taking up bandwith and wasting your own time at that. Now go play xbox and listen to some fiddy cent before mommy finds you here.

[progressive thinker]

Better than listening to black flag and saying how hardcore you are to yourself in the mirror.

As for the whole French revolution deal, why did it take the French so long to get their country on the right track? I guess its because they valued the good of the society over the good of the individual. Hmm...I wonder what a Marxist society would advocate.

[encephalon]

Better than listening to black flag and saying how hardcore you are to yourself in the mirror.

As for the whole French revolution deal, why did it take the French so long to get their country on the right track? I guess its because they valued the good of the society over the good of the individual. Hmm...I wonder what a Marxist society would advocate.


Wow, you really don't know anything about history, do you? Christ.

[PRC-UTE]

Originally posted by Dead [email protected] 3 2005, 09:06 PM

Would you like me to list all the capitalist death counts in India and other third world countries that tried 'capitalism'?

what for? it wouldnt disprove the fact that marxist ideology is directly responsible for more purges and mass killings than any other system in the history of mankind


[/quote]
If you really believe that's true, you're truly amazing.

Try reading something about the Nazi regime and what did to Europe and Russia especially.



besides india and those thirdworld countrys werent TRUE capatalist:D

:lol:

I see, you're right, the British empire wasn't about markets or exploiting resources. Oi!