The Bad Always End Up on Top

[rightsaidtom]

Due to the fact that free will exists even under the strictest attempts to oppress it simply due to human nature, compliance with socialism and communism becomes a major problem in a communist or socialist state. In order to combat this free will, noncompliance, disagreement, and dissension it often becomes necessary for an inherently unequal elite to assume authority and power in a communist state in effort to combat this problem. A concentration of widespread power arises at the top among those elite as a natural result of there existing a superior few. Just as Lord Acton noticed "absolute power corrupts absolutely," large amounts of power intensified in a small area tend to attract those hungry for power while corrupting those in power.



Examples of "the bad" on top in control economies:
Josef Stalin, Soviet Union
Pol Pot, Kmehr Rouge
Adolph Hitler, Germany under the National Socialist German Workers Party (nazi in short)
Leonid Brezhnev, Soviet Union
Fidel Castro, Cuba
Mao Zedong, China
Kim Il Sung, North Korea
Tito, Yugoslavia
Ho Chi Minh, Vietnam
Huey P. Long, communist leaning governor of Louisiana in the 30's famous for 'removing' opposition

[rightsaidtom]

No ickle commies can prove this wrong? Here i'll do it for you.

" T3h guvernment branewashed yoo 2 think that!1"

or the more "educated"

"Communism has never existed."

[t_wolves_fan]

Originally posted by [email protected] 3 2005, 05:06 PM
Due to the fact that free will exists even under the strictest attempts to oppress it simply due to human nature, compliance with socialism and communism becomes a major problem in a communist or socialist state. In order to combat this free will, noncompliance, disagreement, and dissension it often becomes necessary for an inherently unequal elite to assume authority and power in a communist state in effort to combat this problem. A concentration of widespread power arises at the top among those elite as a natural result of there existing a superior few. Just as Lord Acton noticed "absolute power corrupts absolutely," large amounts of power intensified in a small area tend to attract those hungry for power while corrupting those in power.



Examples of "the bad" on top in control economies:
Josef Stalin, Soviet Union
Pol Pot, Kmehr Rouge
Adolph Hitler, Germany under the National Socialist German Workers Party (nazi in short)
Leonid Brezhnev, Soviet Union
Fidel Castro, Cuba
Mao Zedong, China
Kim Il Sung, North Korea
Tito, Yugoslavia
Ho Chi Minh, Vietnam
Huey P. Long, communist leaning governor of Louisiana in the 30's famous for 'removing' opposition
Bingo. This is the reason that communism likely will never exist in the pure form advocated here.

If I work to provide for the life of someone who refuses to contribute, I am a slave to that person. Look at blacks in the antebellum south: They worked so that massa and missus could sit in their plantation and do nothing. Communism or socialism are no different.

Now, the communists will retort that capitalism involves workers slaving away for the rich. The problem is, the rich work too. They organize the businesses or spend the capital to create the business. The few trust-fund babies lucky enough to be born into their situations are living off of the work of their relatives, with which I see no problem, as that wealth was transferred voluntarily.

Eventually under the slavery system described above, the intelligent and hardworking will get tired of being slaves to the stupid and slothful.

The only two ways to deal with that conflict is through opression of the intelligent and hardworking to keep them in line; or capitalism, which rewards the hardworking and intelligent and induces the slothful and stupid to improve.

I just don't see a way around it.

[rightsaidtom]

Originally posted by t_wolves_fan+Feb 3 2005, 06:07 PM--> (t_wolves_fan @ Feb 3 2005, 06:07 PM)
[email protected] 3 2005, 05:06 PM
Due to the fact that free will exists even under the strictest attempts to oppress it simply due to human nature, compliance with socialism and communism becomes a major problem in a communist or socialist state. In order to combat this free will, noncompliance, disagreement, and dissension it often becomes necessary for an inherently unequal elite to assume authority and power in a communist state in effort to combat this problem. A concentration of widespread power arises at the top among those elite as a natural result of there existing a superior few. Just as Lord Acton noticed "absolute power corrupts absolutely," large amounts of power intensified in a small area tend to attract those hungry for power while corrupting those in power.



Examples of "the bad" on top in control economies:
Josef Stalin, Soviet Union
Pol Pot, Kmehr Rouge
Adolph Hitler, Germany under the National Socialist German Workers Party (nazi in short)
Leonid Brezhnev, Soviet Union
Fidel Castro, Cuba
Mao Zedong, China
Kim Il Sung, North Korea
Tito, Yugoslavia
Ho Chi Minh, Vietnam
Huey P. Long, communist leaning governor of Louisiana in the 30's famous for 'removing' opposition
Bingo. This is the reason that communism likely will never exist in the pure form advocated here.

If I work to provide for the life of someone who refuses to contribute, I am a slave to that person. Look at blacks in the antebellum south: They worked so that massa and missus could sit in their plantation and do nothing. Communism or socialism are no different.

Now, the communists will retort that capitalism involves workers slaving away for the rich. The problem is, the rich work too. They organize the businesses or spend the capital to create the business. The few trust-fund babies lucky enough to be born into their situations are living off of the work of their relatives, with which I see no problem, as that wealth was transferred voluntarily.

Eventually under the slavery system described above, the intelligent and hardworking will get tired of being slaves to the stupid and slothful.

The only two ways to deal with that conflict is through opression of the intelligent and hardworking to keep them in line; or capitalism, which rewards the hardworking and intelligent and induces the slothful and stupid to improve.

I just don't see a way around it. [/b]
Well put.

[Sabocat]

Okay I'll bite. I'm just dying to hear how you explain a couple of these as "bad on top"

Ho Chi Minh? Modeled his countries Bill of Rights after the U.S'. asked the U.S. to allow their sovereignty.

Castro? Has taken an island with crushing poor, only about 40% literacy and virtually no health care and has since provided his country with free medical care, free school from kindergarten to graduate school, and has increased literacy to almost 100%, and on top of it all, a lower infant mortality rate than almost all of the industrialized nations. You're right ...what an animal!

Tito? Well one could certainly argue that Yugoslavia was better off under him than it is at present couldn't one?

Putting Adolph Hitler in a list with alleged or self proclaimed Communists is an absolute admission of lack of knowledge on your part.

As far as Pol Pot and the Khmer Rouge, well the U.S. actually supplied and sent aid to them to try to defeat the Vietnamese, so in essence the U.S. contributed to that abomination.

I'd also be interested in your explanation of the Paris Commune. Where was the authority there?

[redstar2000]

Originally posted by rightsaidtom
Huey P. Long, communist leaning governor of Louisiana in the 30's famous for 'removing' opposition

Poor old Huey -- see what the morons have done to your name!

I guess when you spoke and wrote about your plan to save capitalism, they all thought you were lying.

But it would still be enjoyable if you were around now...and to watch you go to work on these intellectual pygmies.

Quoting from memory (not exact words)...

If the Grand Imperial Bastard of the Klu Klux Klan comes to Louisiana, he'll leave in a hearse!

At least Huey's heart was in the right place.

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/123.gif

[rightsaidtom]

Originally posted by [email protected] 3 2005, 06:19 PM
Okay I'll bite. I'm just dying to hear how you explain a couple of these as "bad on top"

Ho Chi Minh? Modeled his countries Bill of Rights after the U.S'. asked the U.S. to allow their sovereignty.

Castro? Has taken an island with crushing poor, only about 40% literacy and virtually no health care and has since provided his country with free medical care, free school from kindergarten to graduate school, and has increased literacy to almost 100%, and on top of it all, a lower infant mortality rate than almost all of the industrialized nations. You're right ...what an animal!

Tito? Well one could certainly argue that Yugoslavia was better off under him than it is at present couldn't one?

Putting Adolph Hitler in a list with alleged or self proclaimed Communists is an absolute admission of lack of knowledge on your part.

As far as Pol Pot and the Khmer Rouge, well the U.S. actually supplied and sent aid to them to try to defeat the Vietnamese, so in essence the U.S. contributed to that abomination.

I'd also be interested in your explanation of the Paris Commune. Where was the authority there?

Ho Chi Minh? Modeled his countries Bill of Rights after the U.S'. asked the U.S. to allow their sovereignty.

Though the totals on Vietnam are unknown due to poor record keeping and the fact that Vietnam remains communist today, several hundred thousands were murdered in Stalinist fashion of execution and slave labor camps.

(repost)


Castro? Has taken an island with crushing poor, only about 40% literacy and virtually no health care and has since provided his country with free medical care, free school from kindergarten to graduate school, and has increased literacy to almost 100%, and on top of it all, a lower infant mortality rate than almost all of the industrialized nations. You're right ...what an animal!

And all he had to do was murder his opposition.
http://www.ccsi.com/~ams/nuestracuba/murdered.html
http://www.fiu.edu/~fcf/prison.html


Tito? Well one could certainly argue that Yugoslavia was better off under him than it is at present couldn't one?

One (that’s so gay) could say that, yes. Relevancy anyone?

http://www.srpska-mreza.com/History/ww2/axed-head.html



Putting Adolph Hitler in a list with alleged or self proclaimed Communists is an absolute admission of lack of knowledge on your part.

How so? Was I mistaken in saying he was a socialist?



As far as Pol Pot and the Khmer Rouge, well the U.S. actually supplied and sent aid to them to try to defeat the Vietnamese, so in essence the U.S. contributed to that abomination.

No son, we aided them in the attempt to defeat the Vietnamese. The abominations aren't counting deaths in battle, they're counting things like s21...you know, that stuff the commies like to ignore.

http://www.frif.com/new2003/s21.html


I'd also be interested in your explanation of the Paris Commune. Where was the authority there?

Woopti shit. The Paris commune lasted how long exactly?

[rightsaidtom]

Originally posted by redstar2000+Feb 3 2005, 06:23 PM--> (redstar2000 @ Feb 3 2005, 06:23 PM)
rightsaidtom
Huey P. Long, communist leaning governor of Louisiana in the 30's famous for 'removing' opposition

Poor old Huey -- see what the morons have done to your name!

I guess when you spoke and wrote about your plan to save capitalism, they all thought you were lying.

But it would still be enjoyable if you were around now...and to watch you go to work on these intellectual pygmies.

Quoting from memory (not exact words)...

If the Grand Imperial Bastard of the Klu Klux Klan comes to Louisiana, he'll leave in a hearse!

At least Huey's heart was in the right place.

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/123.gif [/b]
Ok, I'll admit that gave me a giggle. :D

[Sabocat]

Though the totals on Vietnam are unknown due to poor record keeping and the fact that Vietnam remains communist today, several hundred thousands were murdered in Stalinist fashion of execution and slave labor camps.

Totals are unknown. How convenient for you. The U.S. killed 1.5 - 2 million people there. The U.S. invaded a sovereign nation, subverted its elections, the U.S. also contaminated the soil for years to come with one of the most toxic substances known (dioxyn) causing birth defects and cancers for years to come. How many children have had limbs blown off or outright killed by the anti personnel mines left all over the country? So by your numbers at least, the U.S. is far more guilty of attrocities than the Vietnamese and Ho Chi Minh.


Was I mistaken in saying he was a socialist?

Yes. You were mistaken.


And all he had to do was murder his opposition.

Sometimes you have to break a few eggs to make an omelet. :lol: If you expect me to feel badly that Che and Castro executed a few Batista torturers, informants and executioners, you've come to the wrong place. I don't care.


No son, we aided them in the attempt to defeat the Vietnamese.

Son? LOL. Well supplying weapons and intel certainly made it easier for the Khmer Rouge to function didn't it? And stating attrocities with regards to the Khmer Rouge is pointless to me. I don't support the Khmer Rouge, as I can't find any policy of theirs that is even remotely Communist. Genocide is not a communist ethos. The Khmer Rouge was committing attrocities all over Cambodia yet the U.S. did nothing but watch, yet, the U.S. went to Vietnam and killed 1.5- 2 million people because the Vietnamese wanted independence from France. I guess the enemy of my enemy is my friend eh?


Woopti shit. The Paris commune lasted how long exactly?

Well it didn't last very long, but we all know why, don't we? My question still stands. Where was the authoritarian leadership there? Where were the attrocities that inherently come with Communism as you claim?

[rightsaidtom]

5 min. isn'y long enough for anything to happen.

[Sabocat]

It was closer to 2 months for the actual Paris Commune, but plenty of things happened, but please, allow me to refresh your memory as to who the "bad on top" really were.


May 21-28: Versailles troops enter Paris on May 21. The Prussians who held the northern and eastern forts allowed the Versailles troops to advance across the land north of the city, which was forbidden ground to them under the armistice — Paris workers held the flank with only weak forces. As a result of this, only a weak resistance was put up in the western half of Paris, in the luxury city; while it grew stronger and more tenacious the nearer the Versailles troops approached the eastern half, the working class city.

The French army spent eight days massacring workers, shooting civilians on sight. The operation was led by Marshal MacMahon, who would later become president of France. Tens of thousands of Communards and workers are summarily executed (as many as 30,000); 38,000 others imprisoned and 7,000 are forcibly deported.

But then I guess when attrocities are committed against Communists, that's not really an attrocity right?

Link (http://www.marxists.org/history/france/paris-commune/timeline.htm)

[Martyr_Machine]

Originally posted by [email protected] 3 2005, 07:41 PM
It was closer to 2 months for the actual Paris Commune, but plenty of things happened, but please, allow me to refresh your memory as to who the "bad on top" really were.


May 21-28: Versailles troops enter Paris on May 21. The Prussians who held the northern and eastern forts allowed the Versailles troops to advance across the land north of the city, which was forbidden ground to them under the armistice — Paris workers held the flank with only weak forces. As a result of this, only a weak resistance was put up in the western half of Paris, in the luxury city; while it grew stronger and more tenacious the nearer the Versailles troops approached the eastern half, the working class city.

The French army spent eight days massacring workers, shooting civilians on sight. The operation was led by Marshal MacMahon, who would later become president of France. Tens of thousands of Communards and workers are summarily executed (as many as 30,000); 38,000 others imprisoned and 7,000 are forcibly deported.

But then I guess when attrocities are committed against Communists, that's not really an attrocity right?

Link (http://www.marxists.org/history/france/paris-commune/timeline.htm)
Communists arent people, they are devices put on this earth to serve as target practice.

[Sabocat]

Originally posted by Martyr_Machine+Feb 3 2005, 03:50 PM--> (Martyr_Machine @ Feb 3 2005, 03:50 PM)
[email protected] 3 2005, 07:41 PM
It was closer to 2 months for the actual Paris Commune, but plenty of things happened, but please, allow me to refresh your memory as to who the "bad on top" really were.


May 21-28: Versailles troops enter Paris on May 21. The Prussians who held the northern and eastern forts allowed the Versailles troops to advance across the land north of the city, which was forbidden ground to them under the armistice — Paris workers held the flank with only weak forces. As a result of this, only a weak resistance was put up in the western half of Paris, in the luxury city; while it grew stronger and more tenacious the nearer the Versailles troops approached the eastern half, the working class city.

The French army spent eight days massacring workers, shooting civilians on sight. The operation was led by Marshal MacMahon, who would later become president of France. Tens of thousands of Communards and workers are summarily executed (as many as 30,000); 38,000 others imprisoned and 7,000 are forcibly deported.

But then I guess when attrocities are committed against Communists, that's not really an attrocity right?

Link (http://www.marxists.org/history/france/paris-commune/timeline.htm)
Communists arent people, they are devices put on this earth to serve as target practice. [/b]
Run a long little one, the grown-ups are trying to talk.

[Publius]

Literacy doesn't mean anything when you don't have the money to buy anything to read.

And Cuba doesn't have good health care.

The doctors drive cabs to prevent themselves from starving to death.

Your healthcare is mostly "I can't help you".

It has a horrible healthcare system.

As we say here in America: You get what you pay for.

[Sabocat]

And yet with such a terrible healthcare situation in Cuba, they have one of the lowest birth rate deaths and an average lifespan equivalent or greater than most industrialized nations.

They've even invented a vaccine that the U.S. wanted to buy (meningitis). They are currently working on and are close to a cholera vaccine among others.

Cuba Ailing? Not Its Biomedical Industry
Tom Fawthrop
The Straits Times, 26 January 2004


MENTION faraway Cuba and most people think of a Caribbean island best known for Havana cigars, rum and the revolutionary exploits of Che Guevara. They probably don't associate it with cutting edge medical research.

Yet Cuban biotechnology is now, among other things, leading the way in the development of a new generation of anti-cancer therapies expected to be available to the European market by 2008.

Link (http://yaleglobal.yale.edu/display.article?id=3193)


Literacy doesn't mean anything when you don't have the money to buy anything to read

They read school books and texts, which of course they don't have to pay for.


Please provide some proof that medical care in Cuba is poor.

[Publius]

Their school texts? Ha! They can read what the state gives them to read. What freedom!

I'm going to Cuba!



How were these numbers gotten? Given to you by the Cuban government, the only entity that could know birth rates and such? I'm sure they're trustworthy.

And I don't see how Cuba could make a vaccine, perhaps they have a lab in the back of their '57 Buick.

I'll take your word for it.

[Publius]

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/087...3631488-4663156 (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0871137607/104-3631488-4663156)

is my source.

The Chapter entitled "Bad Socialism: Cuba" actually.

[Invader Zim]

Originally posted by Martyr_Machine+Feb 3 2005, 08:50 PM--> (Martyr_Machine @ Feb 3 2005, 08:50 PM)
[email protected] 3 2005, 07:41 PM
It was closer to 2 months for the actual Paris Commune, but plenty of things happened, but please, allow me to refresh your memory as to who the "bad on top" really were.


May 21-28: Versailles troops enter Paris on May 21. The Prussians who held the northern and eastern forts allowed the Versailles troops to advance across the land north of the city, which was forbidden ground to them under the armistice — Paris workers held the flank with only weak forces. As a result of this, only a weak resistance was put up in the western half of Paris, in the luxury city; while it grew stronger and more tenacious the nearer the Versailles troops approached the eastern half, the working class city.

The French army spent eight days massacring workers, shooting civilians on sight. The operation was led by Marshal MacMahon, who would later become president of France. Tens of thousands of Communards and workers are summarily executed (as many as 30,000); 38,000 others imprisoned and 7,000 are forcibly deported.

But then I guess when attrocities are committed against Communists, that's not really an attrocity right?

Link (http://www.marxists.org/history/france/paris-commune/timeline.htm)
Communists arent people, they are devices put on this earth to serve as target practice. [/b]
I am sorry, but I have too ask a rather personal question...

How old are you?

[Non-Sectarian Bastard!]

Do you make a sport out of contradicting yourself? The content of schoolbooks is dictated by the sate, same goes for both Cuba and the US.

[Sabocat]

Well actually the numbers come mostly from the UN, however you'll find that Oxfam and other organizations report the same or similar. This report in particular was from a U.S. PBS broadcast. Enjoy.


The Right Priorities: Health, Education, and Literacy"
University of Massachusetts-Boston sociologist Miren Uriarte is a senior research associate and founding director of the Mauricio Gastón Institute for Latino Community Development and Public Policy. This excerpt is from a 2002 Oxfam report she wrote entitled Cuba: Social Policy at the Crossroads: Maintaining Priorities, Transforming Practice.

"Cuba's achievements in social development are impressive given the size of its gross domestic product per capita. As the human development index of the United Nations makes clear year after year, Cuba should be the envy of many other nations, ostensibly far richer. [Cuba] demonstrates how much nations can do with the resources they have if they focus on the right priorities - health, education, and literacy."
-- Kofi Annan, Secretary General of the United Nations, April 11, 2000

When Cuba's revolution came to power in 1959, its model of development aimed to link economic growth with advances in social justice. From the start, transforming economic changes were accompanied by equally transforming social initiatives. For example, in 1959, Cuba carried out a profound agrarian reform which ended latifundia in the island and distributed land to thousands of formerly landless small farmers. Alongside this fundamental reform were programs directed at providing health care and education to the farmers and their families. A national health system and its rural health services were introduced in 1959; only 8% of the rural population had access to health care at that time. The National Literacy Campaign of 1961, recognized as one of the most successful initiatives of its kind, mobilized teachers, workers, and secondary school students to teach more than 700,000 persons how to read. This campaign reduced the illiteracy rate from 23% to 4% in the space of one year.

Initiatives in the cities were no less ambitious. Urban reform brought a halving of rents for Cuban tenants, opportunities for tenants to own their housing, and an ambitious program of housing construction for those living in marginal shantytowns. New housing, along with the implementation of measures to create jobs and reduce unemployment, especially among women, rapidly transformed the former shantytowns.

The swift pace of change of the early years gave way to more measured advances, but the values that framed those initiatives have greatly influenced the body of social policy in Cuba. Cuban social policy is characterized by its emphasis on universal coverage and reach for all programs and for all educational, health, and social benefits. These are seen as part of a "social wage" that workers accrue in addition to their monetary wage.

Social policy has also favored the development of equity across society, including the equitable distribution of benefits across all sectors of the population, sometimes favoring the most vulnerable. In the last 40 years Cubans have greatly reduced differences in income between the lowest and the highest paid persons. Women have benefited significantly from the revolution as they have educated themselves and entered the labor force in large numbers. The differences among Cubans of different races have also been reduced.

Cuban social policy is also characterized by the exclusive participation of the public sector in its development and execution. The government assumes responsibility for financing social programs and for providing all social benefits.

The programs and subsidies that make up Cuba's safety net cover its citizens from cradle to grave. They have led the island to outcomes that, especially in health and education, are almost universally recognized as positive. The 1999 Human Development Index (H.D.I.), which measures basic dimensions of human development -- longevity, knowledge, and a decent standard of living -- ranked Cuba 58 out of 174 countries. Primary indicators for Cuba were: life expectancy at birth (75.7 years), adult literacy rate (95.9%), combined enrollment in school (72%), and per capita income (est. $3100)...

Health Care
Health care is considered a right of Cuban citizens and is provided free of charge. Health care was nationalized in Cuba in 1961, although some physicians continued to operate privately and a very small number still do so today. When, in 1959, Cuba began the process of transforming the health status of its population, it faced some important challenges. First of all, most health care was concentrated in urban areas, and was offered through a network of private clinics and a weak public system that was generally regarded as deficient. Second, in the first years after the revolution, about one-half of the physicians left the country, many in the wake of the socialization of medicine. Cuba was left with the burden of caring for its people with greatly diminished resources and the need to train almost all its medical personnel. But it was also left with the opportunity to develop a health care system from the ground up. And it developed a system that has attracted the attention of the world for its reach, its access, and its orientation to prevention. Health outcomes worsened during the first decade of the revolution as the system was put in place, but outcomes recovered by 1970 and have continued to improve to this day....

Education
Education is also considered a right of every citizen and is provided free of charge at every level. The Cuban educational system includes pre-primary, primary (1 to 6), secondary (7 to 9), and pre-university or technical/professional education (10 to 12). University education is also available. The evolution in this area is similar. In 1959, the educational attainment of Cubans stood at third grade. Forty-five percent of primary school children did not attend school, and 23% of the population over 10 years old was illiterate. The National Literacy Campaign reduced the illiteracy rate to 4% in 1961; the illiteracy rate in Cuba has remained under 10% and today stands at 6.8% of the population. According to the United Nations, the rate of literacy among people 15 and older in Cuba was 97%, compared to 99% in Canada and the United States, 96% in Costa Rica, and 83% in the Dominican Republic. In the 1960s and 1970s, schools were constructed, and a system of scholarships was instituted that assured that all children, regardless of where they lived or the economic situation of the family, would be able to attend school. The number of children in the labor force, low even in 1960 when compared to Latin America as a whole, first decreased and then dropped to zero as the availability of schools led to dramatic increases in the rates of enrollment in primary, secondary (high school), and tertiary (university or professional school) education...

In 1980, 98.8% of the children 6-11 were attending primary schools. Enrollments in secondary education also climbed from 14% in 1960 to a high of 90% in 1990... Enrollments in higher education increased from a low of 7% in 1970 to a high of 21% in 1990. These enrollments were strongly affected by the economic crisis of the 1990s, dropping to 12% in 1996. Nevertheless, the educational attainment of Cubans has translated into a highly educated workforce: of all Cuban workers, 14% have a university degree.

Culture for All
Another area that strongly reflects the universality present in Cuban social policy is arts and culture. As early as 1959, several new cultural institutions were founded in Cuba that would become important to the development of art and culture across Latin America: Casa de las Americas, the Cuban Institute of Cinematographic Arts and Industry (I.C.A.I.C.), the National Theatre, the National Ballet, the National Symphonic Orchestra, and the National Folkloric Group. The literacy campaign also raised Cuban capacity to fully engage in the arts and culture. These developments alone would have enhanced the life of the Cuban people. But what has most characterized the process of cultural development in Cuba is the massive participation and access to arts and culture that is available to the Cuban people.

Link (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/castro/sfeature/sf_views_uriarte.html)

[rightsaidtom]

Originally posted by Non-Sectarian Bastard!@Feb 3 2005, 08:46 PM
Do you make a sport out of contradicting yourself? The content of schoolbooks is dictated by the sate, same goes for both Cuba and the US.
His point was not ALL of our reading is dictated by the state.

[Dead Mike]

dont forget tv, radio, and newspapers

[Non-Sectarian Bastard!]

Originally posted by rightsaidtom+Feb 3 2005, 09:50 PM--> (rightsaidtom @ Feb 3 2005, 09:50 PM)
Non-Sectarian Bastard!@Feb 3 2005, 08:46 PM
Do you make a sport out of contradicting yourself? The content of schoolbooks is dictated by the sate, same goes for both Cuba and the US.
His point was not ALL of our reading is dictated by the state. [/b]
No it wasn't. Stop answering for him.

[rightsaidtom]

Originally posted by Non-Sectarian Bastard!+Feb 3 2005, 09:07 PM--> (Non-Sectarian Bastard! @ Feb 3 2005, 09:07 PM)
Originally posted by [email protected] 3 2005, 09:50 PM

Non-Sectarian Bastard!@Feb 3 2005, 08:46 PM
Do you make a sport out of contradicting yourself? The content of schoolbooks is dictated by the sate, same goes for both Cuba and the US.
His point was not ALL of our reading is dictated by the state.
No it wasn't. Stop answering for him. [/b]
:rolleyes: You really think it wasn't? You people are worse than I thought.

[Dead Mike]

he may answer for whomever he wants comrade :D

[Non-Sectarian Bastard!]

Exactly. I want to steal your freedom and the fruits of your labor. You see the children fixing Nike balls for 15 ct. an hour are actually stealing the fruits of the labor of the Nike director. That poor bastard. We should donate him money. Long live capitalism and ignorant middle-class capitalists attacking leftist message boards.

[Don't Change Your Name]

Originally posted by [email protected] 3 2005, 05:06 PM
Examples of "the bad" on top in control economies:
Josef Stalin, Soviet Union
Pol Pot, Kmehr Rouge
Adolph Hitler, Germany under the National Socialist German Workers Party (nazi in short)
Leonid Brezhnev, Soviet Union
Fidel Castro, Cuba
Mao Zedong, China
Kim Il Sung, North Korea
Tito, Yugoslavia
Ho Chi Minh, Vietnam
Huey P. Long, communist leaning governor of Louisiana in the 30's famous for 'removing' opposition
I haven't seen a leftist here support Hitler, Pol Pot, Brezhnev, or Kim Il Sung, and there aren't more than 1 or 2 stalinists here, and a few people supported Ho Chi Mihn and Tito but they are (or were since I'm not sure if there are some remaining) a minority. Others here do not support Castro or distrust him. I didn't know who that dude Huey P. Long was until now, so I googled him and found this:


He decided to create his own wealth redistribution program, which he called "Share Our Wealth". It proposed heavy estate and income taxes that would prevent any family from owning a fortune of more than $5 million and enjoying an annual income of more than $1 million. He proclaimed that this program would make "every man a king" The revenue thus derived, the government would support a large public-works program and subsidies to education. His most radical proposal being the government would guarantee to every family a debt-free "homestead" of $5,000 and an annual income of between $2000 - $3,000.

That's just "social democracy".

In other words, by naming such assholes as Hitler and Pol Pot and considered them "communists" (doesn't explain why Hitler was nothing but a counter-revolutionary in times of crisis for the capitalist order, like Mussolini who fought against those workers who would take over factories as any good friend of the ruling class would), ands by assuming that everyone here fits your definition of "communist" (or the "traditional" definition of it), which seems to be "centralized control over the economy by the state", your post is nothing but a straw man fallacy.