A question.

[Martyr_Machine]

Hypothetically, in a communist "utopia", what would happen if one were to speak out against communism, or the collective?

[New Tolerance]

I see that you have the quotations around the word "utopia", who told you that it was going to be some kind of utopia?

[Non-Sectarian Bastard!]

An utopia is the perfect state as described by Plato. We will abolish the state, thus we are not utopian. Nor will we get the perfect society, since man isn't perfect.

And speak out against communism all you want.

[RevolutionaryLeftist]

nothing would happen to them, because in communism there is no state, and in communism no one is suppressed. if one was to speak against communism im sure nothing would happen to them. i speak out against capitalism, what happens to me? nothing, because i have a free voice.

[Martyr_Machine]

Originally posted by [email protected] 3 2005, 02:17 AM
nothing would happen to them, because in communism there is no state, and in communism no one is suppressed. if one was to speak against communism im sure nothing would happen to them. i speak out against capitalism, what happens to me? nothing, because i have a free voice.
So if one were to, say........kill another person, what would happen to them?

[Non-Sectarian Bastard!]

Then the local commune would judge you and find a fitting punishment.

[RevolutionaryLeftist]

if someone were to kill another man, then i think that it should be justified on what should happen to the person who committed that crime. With Anarchy i wouldnt know what to say about that. But with Communism it would probably be decided within a community or a group of people. Whatever the people decide to do to the person who committed the crime would probably follow through the punishment. even if there is communism, that doesn't mean there isn't punishment against inhumane crimes.

[comrade_mufasa]

Originally posted by Non-Sectarian Bastard!@Feb 2 2005, 09:27 PM
Then the local commune would judge you and find a fitting punishment.
which would be forced labor :D

[Martyr_Machine]

Originally posted by Non-Sectarian Bastard!@Feb 3 2005, 02:27 AM
Then the local commune would judge you and find a fitting punishment.
In other words, a democratic puppet government would decide how to deal with him.

[Veritas]

Originally posted by [email protected] 3 2005, 02:17 AM
nothing would happen to them, because in communism there is no state, and in communism no one is suppressed. if one was to speak against communism im sure nothing would happen to them. i speak out against capitalism, what happens to me? nothing, because i have a free voice.
Who is in charge?

[Non-Sectarian Bastard!]

the working class

[RevolutionaryLeftist]

Who is in charge?

the commune

[Veritas]

Originally posted by [email protected] 3 2005, 02:37 AM

Who is in charge?

the commune
I thought I had some idea, you guys are much more advanced than me. Who is the commune? Is that everyone? Or are they selected? I feel stupid!

[Martyr_Machine]

Originally posted by [email protected] 3 2005, 02:37 AM

Who is in charge?

the commune
I dont like to call wal-mart a corporation, I like to call it a "family of retail personel with similar financial interests", but that doesnt change that fact that it's a corporation.

You may feel better calling it a commune, but its still a government.

[Veritas]

Originally posted by Martyr_Machine+Feb 3 2005, 02:40 AM--> (Martyr_Machine @ Feb 3 2005, 02:40 AM)
[email protected] 3 2005, 02:37 AM

Who is in charge?

the commune
I dont like to call wal-mart a corporation, I like to call it a "family of retail personel with similar financial interests", but that doesnt change that fact that it's a corporation.

You may feel better calling it a commune, but its still a government. [/b]
I don't understand, you mean that corporations are communes? Is Walmart a good example of socialism? I am so confused!

[Zingu]

Originally posted by Martyr_M[email protected] 3 2005, 02:29 AM

In other words, a democratic puppet government would decide how to deal with him.
There is no government in Communism, dammit!

[Martyr_Machine]

Originally posted by Zingu+Feb 3 2005, 02:46 AM--> (Zingu @ Feb 3 2005, 02:46 AM)
[email protected] 3 2005, 02:29 AM

In other words, a democratic puppet government would decide how to deal with him.
There is no government in Communism, dammit! [/b]
Bullshit. Communism requires a government to distribute wealth and silence dissent.

[Zingu]

Originally posted by [email protected] 3 2005, 02:46 AM

I don't understand, you mean that corporations are communes? Is Walmart a good example of socialism? I am so confused!
Commune (also known as a Soviet or collective)-A relatively small, often rural community whose members share common interests, work, and income and often own property collectively.

[ComradeRed]

Bullshit. Communism requires a government to distribute wealth and silence dissent.That socialism, idiot.

[Veritas]

Originally posted by Zingu+Feb 3 2005, 02:46 AM--> (Zingu @ Feb 3 2005, 02:46 AM)
[email protected] 3 2005, 02:29 AM

In other words, a democratic puppet government would decide how to deal with him.
There is no government in Communism, dammit! [/b]
I am really confused! There is no government? How do we exist as a country? I thought we need someone to make the laws to spread out the wealth.

[Veritas]

Originally posted by Zingu+Feb 3 2005, 02:48 AM--> (Zingu @ Feb 3 2005, 02:48 AM)
[email protected] 3 2005, 02:46 AM

I don't understand, you mean that corporations are communes? Is Walmart a good example of socialism? I am so confused!
Commune (also known as a Soviet or collective)-A relatively small, often rural community whose members share common interests, work, and income and often own property collectively. [/b]
Can we do that here? How are our leaders picked?

[Zingu]

Originally posted by [email protected] 3 2005, 02:48 AM

Bullshit. Communism requires a government to distribute wealth and silence dissent.
Ignorant Bullshit.


We "silence" the "dissent" in the first stage of the revolution; when the working class seizes control of the state and sets up the "Dictatorship of the Proletariat" to supress the counter-revolutionary elements and to eventually end class antagonisms when everyone is assimilated by the working class. Since the state is a tool of class oppression, it will be no longer needed at this stage of the revolution; in effect, the state will wither away since it is no longer needed, its purpose meanginless.

Go read some Marx and the Communist Manifesto and get back to me.

[Non-Sectarian Bastard!]

Veritas you are even a bad actor on a messageboard. You are not interested in leftist politics. Wal Mart and Socialism :lol:

Obviously all employees of Wall Mart do not have the same economic interest. It's in the directors interest to save costs by cutting labor. Obviously that is not in the interest of the employee, because he will loose his job.

Governments and communes are not the same.

From the Cambride University Dictionary:

government [Show phonetics]
group noun [C] (WRITTEN ABBREVIATION govt)
the group of people who officially control a country:
the government of Israel
The government is/are expected to announce its/their tax proposals today.
The minister has announced that there will be no change in government policy.
Senior government officials will be attending a meeting tomorrow.
Theatre companies are very concerned about cuts in government grants to the arts.
A government enquiry has been launched.

In Communism there will be no officials, nor countries, thus no governments.

There certainly wouldn't be a "democratic puppet government" whatever that means.

[Zingu]

Originally posted by [email protected] 3 2005, 02:52 AM

Can we do that here? How are our leaders picked?
There will be no leaders in Communism.

[Martyr_Machine]

Go read some Marx and the Communist Manifesto and get back to me.

I have. It made me want to shoot myself. How anyone can support that bullshit is beyond me.

[Non-Sectarian Bastard!]

Then read it again. I dare you!

[comrade_mufasa]

Originally posted by [email protected] 2 2005, 09:55 PM

Go read some Marx and the Communist Manifesto and get back to me.

I have. It made me want to shoot myself. How anyone can support that bullshit is beyond me.
well i guess that we are beyond you. :lol:

[crazyman]

Originally posted by Zingu+Feb 3 2005, 02:52 AM--> (Zingu @ Feb 3 2005, 02:52 AM)
[email protected] 3 2005, 02:48 AM

Bullshit. Communism requires a government to distribute wealth and silence dissent.
Ignorant Bullshit.


We "silence" the "dissent" in the first stage of the revolution; when the working class seizes control of the state and sets up the "Dictatorship of the Proletariat" to supress the counter-revolutionary elements and to eventually end class antagonisms when everyone is assimilated by the working class. Since the state is a tool of class oppression, it will be no longer needed at this stage of the revolution; in effect, the state will wither away since it is no longer needed, its purpose meanginless.

Go read some Marx and the Communist Manifesto and get back to me. [/b]
So with out a leader what will stop another country from invading and taking over?

[RevolutionaryLeftist]

There is no wealth man. in communism there is no money.

[Zingu]

Originally posted by [email protected] 3 2005, 02:59 AM

So with out a leader what will stop another country from invading and taking over?


Global Proletarian Revolution, Countries will be held at Socialist governments until every last vestage of Capitalism has been smashed, borders and countries will abolished, there are no need for petty nationalistic divisions.

[Non-Sectarian Bastard!]

Or we skip the socialist stage and organise the working class in militia's.

[comrade_mufasa]

Originally posted by Zingu+Feb 2 2005, 10:00 PM--> (Zingu @ Feb 2 2005, 10:00 PM)
[email protected] 3 2005, 02:59 AM

So with out a leader what will stop another country from invading and taking over?


Global Proletarian Revolution, Countries will be held at Socialist governments until every last vestage of Capitalism has been smashed, borders and countries will abolished, there are no need for petty nationalistic divisions. [/b]
you do relize that capitalist dont understand that.

[RevolutionaryLeftist]

Why can&#39;t we all just get along? Peace <3

[Veritas]

Originally posted by Non&#045;Sectarian Bastard&#33;@Feb 3 2005, 02:53 AM
Veritas you are even a bad actor on a messageboard. You are not interested in leftist politics. Wal Mart and Socialism :lol:

Obviously all employees of Wall Mart do not have the same economic interest. It&#39;s in the directors interest to save costs by cutting labor. Obviously that is not in the interest of the employee, because he will loose his job.

Governments and communes are not the same.

From the Cambride University Dictionary:

government [Show phonetics]
group noun [C] (WRITTEN ABBREVIATION govt)
the group of people who officially control a country:
the government of Israel
The government is/are expected to announce its/their tax proposals today.
The minister has announced that there will be no change in government policy.
Senior government officials will be attending a meeting tomorrow.
Theatre companies are very concerned about cuts in government grants to the arts.
A government enquiry has been launched.

In Communism there will be no officials, nor countries, thus no governments.

There certainly wouldn&#39;t be a "democratic puppet government" whatever that means.
Well, I am sorry that I made you mad. I am sorry I don&#39;t know as much as you do&#33; I have been here for a matter of hours and you attack me. I guess you don&#39;t accept anyone who is still wondering. Your no different the the rightwing forums that I have tried to convince that they are nazis. I thought that if I came here at least someone might give me the information I was looking for. Screw you. I want a forum that understands how the little people feel. Apparently this is not it. My first post if you take the time to look is about how the minimum wage isx not enough. You feel all high and mighty, fine. I guess there are better boards to post on.

[Non-Sectarian Bastard!]

blabal, don&#39;t play that trick on me. I am not mad. I get these arguments presented daily. But I do realize that you are trying to let leftist politics look like some idiocy, by equating socialism and wal mart. Ask what you want. But I do hope that there is a sincere thrive to learn about leftist politics.

[Veritas]

Originally posted by Non&#045;Sectarian Bastard&#33;@Feb 3 2005, 03:17 AM
blabal, don&#39;t play that trick on me. I am not mad. I get these arguments presented daily. But I do realize that you are trying to let leftist politics look like some idiocy, by equating socialism and wal mart. Ask what you want. But I do hope that there is a sincere thrive to learn about leftist politics.
OK, I give up. Is there someone else here who is not so paranoid? I bet you drive off many people that would join, don&#39;t you. Your own Martyr Machine is the one that made the statement, I was just asking the question. Gezzz&#33;

[Martyr_Machine]

Originally posted by comrade_mufasa+Feb 3 2005, 03:03 AM--> (comrade_mufasa &#064; Feb 3 2005, 03:03 AM)
Originally posted by [email protected] 2 2005, 10:00 PM

[email protected] 3 2005, 02:59 AM

So with out a leader what will stop another country from invading and taking over?


Global Proletarian Revolution, Countries will be held at Socialist governments until every last vestage of Capitalism has been smashed, borders and countries will abolished, there are no need for petty nationalistic divisions.
you do relize that capitalist dont understand that. [/b]

I understand it just fine. I used to be a marxist, untill I realized it was fascism.

[comrade_mufasa]

Originally posted by Martyr_Machine+Feb 2 2005, 10:45 PM--> (Martyr_Machine @ Feb 2 2005, 10:45 PM)
Originally posted by [email protected] 3 2005, 03:03 AM

Originally posted by [email protected] 2 2005, 10:00 PM

[email protected] 3 2005, 02:59 AM

So with out a leader what will stop another country from invading and taking over?


Global Proletarian Revolution, Countries will be held at Socialist governments until every last vestage of Capitalism has been smashed, borders and countries will abolished, there are no need for petty nationalistic divisions.
you do relize that capitalist dont understand that.

I understand it just fine. I used to be a marxist, untill I realized it was fascism. [/b]
<_< how is it fascism?

[Martyr_Machine]

Originally posted by comrade_mufasa+Feb 3 2005, 03:52 AM--> (comrade_mufasa @ Feb 3 2005, 03:52 AM)
Originally posted by [email protected] 2 2005, 10:45 PM

Originally posted by [email protected] 3 2005, 03:03 AM

Originally posted by [email protected] 2 2005, 10:00 PM

[email protected] 3 2005, 02:59 AM

So with out a leader what will stop another country from invading and taking over?


Global Proletarian Revolution, Countries will be held at Socialist governments until every last vestage of Capitalism has been smashed, borders and countries will abolished, there are no need for petty nationalistic divisions.
you do relize that capitalist dont understand that.

I understand it just fine. I used to be a marxist, untill I realized it was fascism.
<_< how is it fascism? [/b]
In order to set up a communist state:

All dissent and alternate opinions must be silenced.
All power must be removed from the individual.
All individuals must be forced to serve the state.

[Non-Sectarian Bastard!]

So one system wants to abolish the government, state, classes, capital and somehow you manage to equate that with a hierachial society tightly controlled by the state in favor of capital. Quite an imagination, if I may say.

[Raisa]

Originally posted by [email protected] 3 2005, 02:01 AM
Hypothetically, in a communist "utopia", what would happen if one were to speak out against communism, or the collective?
People would probably laugh at you. What are you going to speak out against?
Helping the society you enjoy things from?
No one is gonna tell you what to wear or who to be in communism.
What are you going to speak out against?

[crazyman]

Originally posted by [email protected] 3 2005, 04:15 AM

People would probably laugh at you. What are you going to speak out against?
Helping the society you enjoy things from?

I find that ironic. :D

[Raisa]

Originally posted by [email protected] 3 2005, 03:55 AM


I understand it just fine. I used to be a marxist, untill I realized it was fascism.
<_< how is it fascism? [/QUOTE]
In order to set up a communist state:

All dissent and alternate opinions must be silenced.
All power must be removed from the individual.
All individuals must be forced to serve the state. [/quote]
OOops&#33; You believed in that shit and called it communism&#33; :lol:

Alot of power is removed from the individual now as we speak&#33;
Power is removed from the capitalists. What they seem to call individualism tends to trample all over individualism for 90% of the world.

[Raisa]

Originally posted by crazyman+Feb 3 2005, 04:19 AM--> (crazyman @ Feb 3 2005, 04:19 AM)
[email protected] 3 2005, 04:15 AM

People would probably laugh at you. What are you going to speak out against?
Helping the society you enjoy things from?

I find that ironic. :D [/b]
What is ironic?

What are you going to speak out against?

[comrade_mufasa]

All dissent and alternate opinions must be silenced.
yes, but we will not have purges. Some will try and undermine the revolution. The people will look to those counter-revolutionaries and say "look we have homes we cant be kick out of, we have food no matter what, health care is free for all, education is free for all, and we have true freedom". so them will be silenced becouse thier words will fall on deaf ears.


All power must be removed from the individual.
no it is not removed. it is given to everyone equally.


All individuals must be forced to serve the state.
there is not state and no one will be forced to do anything. that is called true freedom

[truthman]

Originally posted by Zingu+Feb 3 2005, 02:48 AM--> (Zingu @ Feb 3 2005, 02:48 AM)
[email protected] 3 2005, 02:46 AM

I don&#39;t understand, you mean that corporations are communes? Is Walmart a good example of socialism? I am so confused&#33;
Commune (also known as a Soviet or collective)-A relatively small, often rural community whose members share common interests, work, and income and often own property collectively. [/b]
Which makes no sense. A gov. exists any time other people are forced into doing something they don&#39;t want. Communism is the absence of gov. The absence of people being forced to do something. So, if I kill someone, what gives the Commune the right to kill me? They&#39;re imposing their will on me. Now since, people always need direction (human nature is genetic. It don&#39;t change guys.) a few people will likely rally the crowd around hanging my sorry ass from a lightpole. Hence, these few, like the factory workers of old, are being elitist beourgeiouse, or however you spell that (i dont give a car), and forcing me to do something I don&#39;t want to do. Namely to hang and die. Hence, Communism is an apparent impossibility, but only becomes possible, via brainwashing.

[NovelGentry]

Which makes no sense. A gov. exists any time other people are forced into doing something they don&#39;t want. Communism is the absence of gov. The absence of people being forced to do something. So, if I kill someone, what gives the Commune the right to kill me? They&#39;re imposing their will on me. Now since, people always need direction (human nature is genetic. It don&#39;t change guys.) a few people will likely rally the crowd around hanging my sorry ass from a lightpole. Hence, these few, like the factory workers of old, are being elitist beourgeiouse, or however you spell that (i dont give a car), and forcing me to do something I don&#39;t want to do. Namely to hang and die. Hence, Communism is an apparent impossibility, but only becomes possible, via brainwashing.

Those who cannot govern themselves should have no freedom from government. I agree with your very simple definition that government is the basic idea of a body "governing" another body or an individual. And yes, this will occur, but it is not constant. You "governed" someone else when you decided to take their life, as such you too will see the ugly face of government. For those people in communist society (what I can only speculate will be a huge majority) who are able to govern themselves and not impose themselves on other people, they will never see the face of government. Thus government is not universal or constant, and you can be free of it. Most people will be free of it.

[truthman]

Originally posted by [email protected] 3 2005, 05:27 AM

Which makes no sense. A gov. exists any time other people are forced into doing something they don&#39;t want. Communism is the absence of gov. The absence of people being forced to do something. So, if I kill someone, what gives the Commune the right to kill me? They&#39;re imposing their will on me. Now since, people always need direction (human nature is genetic. It don&#39;t change guys.) a few people will likely rally the crowd around hanging my sorry ass from a lightpole. Hence, these few, like the factory workers of old, are being elitist beourgeiouse, or however you spell that (i dont give a car), and forcing me to do something I don&#39;t want to do. Namely to hang and die. Hence, Communism is an apparent impossibility, but only becomes possible, via brainwashing.

Those who cannot govern themselves should have no freedom from government. I agree with your very simple definition that government is the basic idea of a body "governing" another body or an individual. And yes, this will occur, but it is not constant. You "governed" someone else when you decided to take their life, as such you too will see the ugly face of government. For those people in communist society (what I can only speculate will be a huge majority) who are able to govern themselves and not impose themselves on other people, they will never see the face of government. Thus government is not universal or constant, and you can be free of it. Most people will be free of it.
So as long as I dont do anything to resurrect and bring the wrath of gov. down on me, its okay. Still sounds like gov. Just latent. But still gov. No escaping it buddy.

[NovelGentry]

So as long as I dont do anything to resurrect and bring the wrath of gov. down on me, its okay. Still sounds like gov. Just latent. But still gov. No escaping it buddy.

Well you&#39;re denying you&#39;re own simple defintion of government here. The wrath of the government does not exist there is no "the government." The government is not the same as "government." There will be government for those who prove they cannot govern themselves, there will not be "the/a government." That is, there is no separate body of people to decide these things, it is the people as a whole. These things need not be decided on so long as people govern themselves.

It is not "latent" it doesn&#39;t exist for those who can govern themselves. For the vast majority of people they suffer no government. If you are going to impose your will on someone else, that is, if you are going to govern them, you will face government; not "the government."

Do you understand the difference between the two? Government can exist without "a government." Unless you consider self-governing people to be a government. But if that is the case then you willingly admit you can NEVER escape government, as even if you were the only person on earth the act of you governing yourself would make you the government.

Edit: I did misread you as saying "the gov." which is my mistake. However, I&#39;m leaving the rest of the text, as the point is very simply: does self-government imply government? If yes, then you&#39;re right, we do not escape government, ever. If self-government cannot be considered government then it is possible, and it will be the case, that government does not exist for those who can self-govern.

[Taiga]

Originally posted by [email protected] 3 2005, 05:06 AM
human nature is genetic. It don&#39;t change guys.
Could you please define the "human nature".

[Professor Moneybags]

Originally posted by [email protected] 3 2005, 04:32 AM

All power must be removed from the individual.
no it is not removed. it is given to everyone equally.

Granting everyone equal rights to someone else&#39;s work is as good as legalising theft.

[Professor Moneybags]

Originally posted by [email protected] 3 2005, 05:56 AM
The wrath of the government does not exist there is no "the government."
You know, the collective gang that can do as it pleases to whoever it pleases after "the government" has been removed.

[Dead Mike]

so in a communist society there is no government?

silencing dissent is not fascist and taking the benefits of someones hardwork and redistributing it to other people is not theft?
or does everything in communist society belong to everyone in witch case i could theoretically take anything from anyone i want,since it belongs to me and everyone?
im confused :huh:

[Martyr_Machine]

What are you going to speak out against?

Collectivism and totalitarianism

[Non-Sectarian Bastard!]

totalitarianism of what? There are no rulers in a communist society.

How much marxist theory have you read?

[Dead Mike]

we have all read the theory, but i think hes talking about communism in practice

[crazyman]

Originally posted by Raisa+Feb 3 2005, 04:22 AM--> (Raisa @ Feb 3 2005, 04:22 AM)
Originally posted by [email protected] 3 2005, 04:19 AM

[email protected] 3 2005, 04:15 AM

People would probably laugh at you. What are you going to speak out against?
Helping the society you enjoy things from?

I find that ironic. :D
What is ironic?

What are you going to speak out against? [/b]
Your point can be turned right back at you. I am guessing that you complain about capitalism when you are enjoying things that came from a capitalist society.

[Non-Sectarian Bastard!]

Originally posted by Dead [email protected] 3 2005, 09:53 PM
we have all read the theory, but i think hes talking about communism in practice
What practice? The only thing that has been tried towards communism was authoritian socialism. Thus communism hasn&#39;t been tried out, but authoritian socialism. And I highly doubt that you have read any of Marx. What have you read?

[Veritas]

Originally posted by Zingu+Feb 3 2005, 02:52 AM--> (Zingu @ Feb 3 2005, 02:52 AM)
[email protected] 3 2005, 02:48 AM

Bullshit. Communism requires a government to distribute wealth and silence dissent.
Ignorant Bullshit.


We "silence" the "dissent" in the first stage of the revolution; when the working class seizes control of the state and sets up the "Dictatorship of the Proletariat" to supress the counter-revolutionary elements and to eventually end class antagonisms when everyone is assimilated by the working class. Since the state is a tool of class oppression, it will be no longer needed at this stage of the revolution; in effect, the state will wither away since it is no longer needed, its purpose meanginless.

Go read some Marx and the Communist Manifesto and get back to me. [/b]
When you have a "Dictatorship of the Proletariat", how do you get them tio give up that power?

[(R)evolution of the mind]

Originally posted by [email protected] 4 2005, 12:57 AM
When you have a "Dictatorship of the Proletariat", how do you get them tio give up that power?

This question is exactly why anarchists disagree with marxists on the need for a "transitory" "workers&#39;" state on the road towards a stateless, classless society.

[progressive thinker]

Originally posted by [email protected] 3 2005, 08:45 PM

What are you going to speak out against?

Collectivism and totalitarianism
Don&#39;t forget that communism has never existed in reality. Why communism probably never existed in print either and its just those damned capitalist pigs who print out copies of Communist Manifesto so that we can read them and think of writing mash notes to the Krem...err...people of the proletariot.

There is no reason to speak out against communism as it is the only ideal in life that matters. Since life does not exist beyond this world (don&#39;t ask why, it just doesn&#39;t), what is most important is that we create a utopia on earth for a few people. Substituting ruling people for being ruled by a Supreme Being is for cool communists only and if you&#39;re not a communist then you&#39;re not cool.