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Commie Girl
2nd February 2005, 13:03
:D

HAVANA (AP) - Cuban President Fidel Castro said Tuesday that President George W. Bush appears deranged and Cubans would much rather live in the Caribbean island's "heaven" than try and survive in Bush's corrupt, capitalist "hell."

In comments aired live on Cuban television, Castro told thousands of teachers attending an international pedagogy conference in Havana he closely watched Bush's inauguration speech Jan. 20 and saw "the face of a deranged person." "If only it were just the face," he said, to roars of applause by educators in the audience from 52 countries around the world.
Castro criticized Bush's government, linking it to corruption and torture. He then defended Cuba's socialist system, which Bush's administration has openly said should be replaced with a capitalist one.

"This country is heaven, in the spiritual sense of the word," Castro said.

"And I say (to Bush), we prefer to die in heaven than survive in hell."

Castro, 78, stood up for much of his five-hour speech. After he broke his right arm and shattered his left kneecap in an accidental fall in October, the Cuban leader was in a wheelchair before he started standing up and walking again in December.

He expressed little enthusiasm for renewed diplomatic ties between Cuba and the European Union, indicating displeasure that a decision to lift sanctions on Cuba is temporary.

EU foreign ministers announced this week they would lift a ban on high-level governmental visits and stop inviting Cuban dissidents to embassy gatherings in Havana. The 25-country bloc imposed the sanctions after Castro's government cracked down on government opponents in March 2003.

The EU's new policy, which demands the release of all imprisoned dissidents, is up for review in July.

"They are treating us...as if we were condemned to a death sentence," using these months to "observe how I behave," Castro said.

Cuba "doesn't need the United States, it doesn't need Europe," he added.

"What a wonderful thing to be able to say, that (Cuba) doesn't need any assistance - it's learned to live without it."

Conversely, Castro showered praise on Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez, defending the character and ambitions of his close friend and ally. Castro said he laughs every day when he hears "the idiocies" said about Chavez.

The Cuban leader also underlined Cuba's successes in education, where the government has focused many of its resources since the 1959 revolution thrust Castro into power.

"Cuba is doing more for education than UNESCO," he said, referring to the Paris-based United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organization


Source (http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/World/2005/02/01/917385-ap.html)

t_wolves_fan
2nd February 2005, 13:26
One state cracks down on political opponents to the point that the world places sactions on it. It is run by a man who has been in power for, what, 50 years? And the people are not allowed to even attempt to replace him. Tens of thousands (and hundreds of thousands some years) of people risk life and limb to flee this particular state.

Another state allows political opposition and elections. In the last 50 years it has had 10 leaders (who do not routinely dress in military garb). At last count, millions more people try to enter this country than to leave.


Please, Commiegirl, based on these facts, which state do you think would be heaven or hell?

And, if you live in hell right now, why haven't you left for heaven yet?

t_wolves_fan
2nd February 2005, 13:30
Cuba "doesn't need the United States, it doesn't need Europe," he added.

But wait a minute, in my thread on why people are fleeing Cuba, many of the communist posters here have claimed that the United States is directly responsible for any problems Cuba may be having?

Commie Girl
2nd February 2005, 13:32
Originally posted by [email protected] 2 2005, 07:26 AM
One state cracks down on political opponents to the point that the world places sactions on it. It is run by a man who has been in power for, what, 50 years? And the people are not allowed to even attempt to replace him. Tens of thousands (and hundreds of thousands some years) of people risk life and limb to flee this particular state.

Another state allows political opposition and elections. In the last 50 years it has had 10 leaders (who do not routinely dress in military garb). At last count, millions more people try to enter this country than to leave.


Please, Commiegirl, based on these facts, which state do you think would be heaven or hell?

And, if you live in hell right now, why haven't you left for heaven yet?
The world did not place sanctions against Cuba, the U$ solely did that, and it believes it has the right to punish all other countries who do business with Cuba. This economic terrorism sponsored by the U$ has roundly been criticized and condemned by the UN.

Cuba does have elections, with about 90% participation. Honestly, do some reading!

And I dont live in hell (the U$), but am planning another trip to Cuba this summer, my spouse and I have seriously looked into moving to Cuba in the future, sadly this is not possible right now.

t_wolves_fan
2nd February 2005, 13:45
The world did not place sanctions against Cuba, the U$ solely did that, and it believes it has the right to punish all other countries who do business with Cuba.

Um, no, you are incorrect. Please go back and read the article you just posted, especially the part about action taken by the EU.


This economic terrorism sponsored by the U$ has roundly been criticized and condemned by the UN.

Perhaps, but then I believe nearly everything the US does has been criticized in some manner by the UN.

Remember, this is a body that has placed Sudan and Libya in charge of its human rights affairs.

Would you trust those two nations with your human rights?


Cuba does have elections, with about 90% participation. Honestly, do some reading!

Does Castro ever have any opposition?


And I dont live in hell (the U$), but am planning another trip to Cuba this summer, my spouse and I have seriously looked into moving to Cuba in the future, sadly this is not possible right now.

Why not?

Commie Girl
2nd February 2005, 13:50
:) Here are some suggestions:

Cuban Elections are a Fact!!!! (http://www.canadiandimension.mb.ca/v37/v37_4kw.htm)

U$ Sponsored Terrorism (http://www.poptel.org.uk/cuba-solidarity/CubaSi-Autumn/USViolence.html)

t_wolves_fan
2nd February 2005, 13:55
Originally posted by Commie [email protected] 2 2005, 01:50 PM
:) Here are some suggestions:

Cuban Elections are a Fact!!!! (http://www.canadiandimension.mb.ca/v37/v37_4kw.htm)

U$ Sponsored Terrorism (http://www.poptel.org.uk/cuba-solidarity/CubaSi-Autumn/USViolence.html)
Please answer my direct questions. They're pretty straightforward.

Thanks.

Commie Girl
2nd February 2005, 14:01
Originally posted by [email protected] 2 2005, 07:45 AM

The world did not place sanctions against Cuba, the U$ solely did that, and it believes it has the right to punish all other countries who do business with Cuba.

Um, no, you are incorrect. Please go back and read the article you just posted, especially the part about action taken by the EU.


This economic terrorism sponsored by the U$ has roundly been criticized and condemned by the UN.

Perhaps, but then I believe nearly everything the US does has been criticized in some manner by the UN.

Remember, this is a body that has placed Sudan and Libya in charge of its human rights affairs.

Would you trust those two nations with your human rights?


Cuba does have elections, with about 90% participation. Honestly, do some reading!

Does Castro ever have any opposition?


And I dont live in hell (the U$), but am planning another trip to Cuba this summer, my spouse and I have seriously looked into moving to Cuba in the future, sadly this is not possible right now.

Why not?
1) Sorry, I didnt clarify. The EU had placed Diplomatic Sanctions against Cuba, not Economic.

2) maybe this will clarify the UN vote, unless you believe the majority of countries are also "unfairly" criticizing the U$:

Source (http://www.globalpolicy.org/security/sanction/cuba/unvote/1104embargo.htm)

November 4, 2003
For the 12th straight year, the U.N. General Assembly voted overwhelmingly on Tuesday against Washington's four-decade old economic embargo against Cuba that Havana sees as tantamount to "genocide." The annual roasting of the United States by friends and adversaries alike was approved by a record vote of 179 to 3 with two abstentions on the resolution urging Washington to end the trade and travel sanctions. Opposing the resolution were the United States, Israel and the Marshall Islands while Morocco and Micronesia abstained.

Similar resolutions have been adopted by increasing majorities each year since 1992. Last year's vote was 173 to 3 with four abstentions. The resolutions are not mandatory but express the will of the international community. Cuba has been under a U.S. trade and travel embargo since Fidel Castro defeated a CIA-backed assault at the Bay of Pigs in 1961. But this year, the Bush administration's criticisms of Castro were more strident and answered in kind by Cuba's Foreign Minister Felipe Perez Roque. (Source (http://www.globalpolicy.org/security/sanction/cuba/unvote/1104embargo.htm))

3)Read about Cuban elections first

4) Well, lets see now, I have 4 children, one is adopted and has Fetal Alcohol Affects and Autism, he lives in a treatment foster home and is doing well, so to move him now would be counterproductive, and I will not leave him; my husband has 2 children from a previous marriage and he has access every second weekend, so he naturally would not choose to leave them either. When all the kiddies are grown, we will be able to move about more freely!

t_wolves_fan
2nd February 2005, 15:42
1) Sorry, I didnt clarify. The EU had placed Diplomatic Sanctions against Cuba, not Economic.


That is quite alright, I mistakenly thought there were economic sanctions as well.

But it begs the question, why does Cuba imprison dissidents to the point that a huge bloc of pretty liberal nations would sanction it in any way?


2) maybe this will clarify the UN vote, unless you believe the majority of countries are also "unfairly" criticizing the U$:

Source (http://www.globalpolicy.org/security/sanction/cuba/unvote/1104embargo.htm)

November 4, 2003
For the 12th straight year, the U.N. General Assembly voted overwhelmingly on Tuesday against Washington's four-decade old economic embargo against Cuba that Havana sees as tantamount to "genocide." The annual roasting of the United States by friends and adversaries alike was approved by a record vote of 179 to 3 with two abstentions on the resolution urging Washington to end the trade and travel sanctions. Opposing the resolution were the United States, Israel and the Marshall Islands while Morocco and Micronesia abstained.

My first question is why Cuba calls our sanctions "genocide" in front of the UN but then tells his people Cuba doesn't need us or Europe.

I guess all politicians are the same, huh?

Second, a body that appoints Sudan and Libya to run its human rights commission has little weight with me. Certainly our friends and enemies are free to speak their mind, and to trade with Cuba or not. Which I believe many of them do, which begs the question why trade with us is so important in the first place?


3)Read about Cuban elections first

I already have and it's an interesting system. It's interesting that criminals are not allowed to vote. Which means Castro may throw anyone he likes into prison and take away that person's ability to vote. (http://www.cadenagramonte.cubaweb.cu/english/news/250105_02.asp)

Second, I believe your article was correct in pointing out that people who like Cuba's system believe the collective has rights while the individual does not; whereas the United States and most other nations believe it is the other way around.

Which I find terrifying, frankly. I'd not trade my individual liberty to pretty much live as I please and criticize the government for all the free handouts I can depend on.

I see Cuba allows no parties and, as your original article noted, jails political dissidents. That is the difference between collective-based and individual-based rights, I guess: in Cuba you have what society tell you that you will have and you have little or no right to complain; (http://hrw.org/english/docs/2004/04/22/cuba8480.htm) in the United States you have what you earn and can ***** about it all you like. I'd much rather have the later (can you imagine the uproar in the United States if we arrested people for "disrespect for authority"??)

I'm sorry, I just value the individual over the collective.


4) Well, lets see now, I have 4 children, one is adopted and has Fetal Alcohol Affects and Autism, he lives in a treatment foster home and is doing well, so to move him now would be counterproductive, and I will not leave him; my husband has 2 children from a previous marriage and he has access every second weekend, so he naturally would not choose to leave them either. When all the kiddies are grown, we will be able to move about more freely!

Fair enough.

Commie Girl
2nd February 2005, 16:31
Originally posted by [email protected] 2 2005, 09:42 AM

But it begs the question, why does Cuba imprison dissidents to the point that a huge bloc of pretty liberal nations would sanction it in any way?



My first question is why Cuba calls our sanctions "genocide" in front of the UN but then tells his people Cuba doesn't need us or Europe.

I guess all politicians are the same, huh?

Second, a body that appoints Sudan and Libya to run its human rights commission has little weight with me. Certainly our friends and enemies are free to speak their mind, and to trade with Cuba or not. Which I believe many of them do, which begs the question why trade with us is so important in the first place?

It's interesting that criminals are not allowed to vote. Which means Castro may throw anyone he likes into prison and take away that person's ability to vote.


Second, I believe your article was correct in pointing out that people who like Cuba's system believe the collective has rights while the individual does not; whereas the United States and most other nations believe it is the other way around.

Which I find terrifying, frankly. I'd not trade my individual liberty to pretty much live as I please and criticize the government for all the free handouts I can depend on.

I see Cuba allows no parties and, as your original article noted, jails political dissidents. That is the difference between collective-based and individual-based rights, I guess:
in Cuba you have what society tell you that you will have and you have little or no right to complain;in the United States you have what you earn and can ***** about it all you like. I'd much rather have the later (can you imagine the uproar in the United States if we arrested people for "disrespect for authority"??)

I'm sorry, I just value the individual over the collective.


Maybe the question should be, Why do some countries feel they need to judge others when they themselves have not-so-great human rights records? And it is also a matter of opinion wether these so called"dissidents" are politicalprisoners/prisoners of conscience. Here is an interesting take on it:

CUBA: Dissidents funded by US government
BY ROBERTO JORQUERA

At an April 8 press conference in Havana, Cuban foreign

minister Felipe Perez Roque presented vouchers, bank receipts and photos demonstrating the truth behind the charges against 75 dissidents found guilty of conspiring with the US Interests Section (USIS) at the Swiss embassy in Havana.

Perez exhibited vouchers of monies received last year from the US by several illegal organisations in Cuba. The Centre for a Free Cuba received US$2.3 million. The Task Force for the Internal Dissidency received US$250,000. The Program for Transition in Cuba, headed by Frank Calzon, received $325,000. Support Group for the Dissidency received $1.2 million from the International Republican Institute. Cubanet, an internet magazine, received $98,000 and the American Centre for International Labor Solidarity, whose mission is to persuade foreign investors not to invest in Cuba, received $168,575.

At a series of trials of Cuban dissidents in early April it was revealed that James Cason, the current head of the USIS, had conspired with them to provide information that Washington can use in its economic, political and propaganda war against the Cuban workers' and peasants' government.

On March 18, Cuban police began charging those involved in the US-funded dissident network. They were charged under a number of different articles in the Cuban penal code and subsequently sentenced to between 15 and 27 years imprisonment.

Article 5.1 of the penal code, under which many of those arrested were charged, states that any Cuban citizen “who seeks out information to be used in the application of the Helms-Burton Act, the blockade and the economic war against our people aimed at disrupting internal order, destabilising the country and liquidating the socialist state and the independence of Cuba, shall incur a sanction of deprivation of liberty”.

Article 6.1 states that any Cuban citizen “who gathers, reproduces, disseminates subversive material from the government of the United States of America, its agencies, representative bodies, officials or any foreign entity to support the objectives of the Helms-Burton Act, the blockade and the war, shall incur a sanction of deprivation of liberty”.

Others were charged under Article 91 of the penal code that states that any Cuban citizen “who executes an action in the interest of a foreign state with the purpose of harming the independence of the Cuban State or the integrity of its territory shall incur a sentence of 10 to 20 years of deprivation of liberty or death.”

The arrests of the dissidents came after an increase in tension between Washington and Havana over intensified activity by those the US government calls “independent journalists” and “human rights organisations” within Cuba.

Since September, Cason has played the most interventionist role of any previous US diplomat in Cuba. On March 10, the Cuban government delivered a note to Cason asking him to cease his provocative statements and his role organising meetings of Cuban dissidents. Two days later, Cason organised another meeting of dissidents at his residence.

The USIS has also been involved in providing up to $60,000 to the magazine El Dissidente which is sent to the USIS in diplomatic pouches and then distributed by the USIS to Cuban dissidents. Another political magazine, la Revista de Cuba, is actually printed at the USIS.

The case against the arrested dissidents was based on evidence given by a number of Cuban security service agents who had infiltrated the dissident network organised by Cason, including Odilia Collazo Valdes, who headed the Pro-Democracy Party of Cuba, and had been a Cuban security services agent since 1961. These were the key witnesses who provided evidence at the trials about the subversive role of the United States Agency for International Development (USAID).

The USAID web site introduces its Cuba section with the statement: “The overarching goal of US policy toward Cuba is to promote a peaceful transition to democracy on the island. To that end, policy is proceeding on a multi-faceted track: pressure on the regime for change through comprehensive economic sanctions; outreach to the Cuban people; the promotion and protection of human rights; multilateral efforts to press for democracy; and migration accords to promote safe, orderly and legal migration.”

In 1996, USAID awarded the first grant aimed at “promoting democratic transition” in Cuba. The grant was awarded as a result of the Cuban Democracy Act of 1992 which authorises the US government to provide assistance “through appropriate non-governmental organizations, for the support of individuals and organizations to promote nonviolent democratic change in Cuba”.

The Cuban Liberty and Solidarity Act of 1996 further elaborates the types of assistance and support the US president is authorised to provide for individuals and independent non-governmental organisations to support “democracy-building” efforts in Cuba.

At the April 9 press conference, Perez said: “The Helms-Burton Act has paragraph 109 which directs the government to distribute money for subversion in Cuba through USAID and it has paragraph 115 which favours giving the money through secret channels, the special services' channels. USAID itself says that the amount they give is the smallest part and, according to [USAID official Adolfo] Franco, it has been $22 million since 1997.”

Perez noted some of the funds that had been provided: “To help create independent NGOs in Cuba $1,602,000; to give a voice to independent journalists $2,027,000; to plan the transition in Cuba $2,132,000; to assess the program, how it is working $335,000.”

He also showed some passes for free access to the USIS which were in

the possession of several of the convicted dissidents — Oscar Elias Biscet and Hector Palacios — who, said Perez, “have official status” at the USIS, in contrast to the numerous restrictions that have been imposed on all US diplomatic offices under new security regulations after the September 2001 terrorist attacks in New York and Washington.

He insisted that “abundant proof” from experts and witnesses had been presented at the dissidents' trials. “For example, experts from the Central Bank of Cuba testified how the money flowed from the US government and agencies to their agents in Cuba. The routing of dirty money and how it had arrived had been determined: from the US government-front agencies, NGOs, groups and institutions in the US to Cuba, in the form of contraband, under the cover of family remittances, all known to the smallest detail. This is public money from the USAID, we are not talking here about money for special services, the money that the Interest Section gives directly (to their agents) and all that."

It all shows, Perez said, that the US government “plays the main role in creating these groups, in directing, financing, stimulating and protecting these mercenary groups”. He said that while Washington's “intent is to present this as an independent movement arising in Cuba, the so-called civil society, while ignoring the more than 2000 NGOs and Cuban associations which include those from kitchen chefs to feminist organisations, environmental groups, research centres, youth groups, students, and the most diverse areas of social and economic activity in the country, truly insulting all these organisations and their dozens, hundreds of thousands and, in some cases, millions of members”.

In 1994 the US government signed an agreement with Havana to allow 20,000 Cubans to emigrate each year to the US. However, in the last six months the US has only granted 505 visas rather than the 10,000 that it is required to hand out.

Perez stated at the April 9 press conference that over the last seven months there had been seven hijackings of Cuban aircraft and ferries, by people seeking to emigrate from Cuba to the US. Those involved with four of the seven hijackings remain at large in the United States, despite a US agreement not to accept hijackers from Cuba.

In response to the latest hijackings of a Cuban airliner and ferry, three of the hijackers received the death penalty, which was carried out by firing squad on April 11. The hijackers had used knives and grenades, threatening not only the lives of the aircraft and ferry crews but also those of passengers.

Wayne Smith, former third secretary at the USIS from 1958 to 1961 and chief of the USIS from 1979 to 1982, wrote in the April 15 Baltimore Sun: “Cuban authorities have said they believe the hijackings are part of an organized effort by its enemies in the exile community in South Florida to provoke a migration crisis that will lead to the rupture in migratory accords between the two countries.”


Source (http://www.greenleft.org.au/back/2003/535/535p21.htm)


Not too sure what link there is between calling the U$ actions genocide and tellling the population of Cuba they can stand on their own???

As for your friends and enemies being allowed to trade with Cuba, sadly this is not the case....remember the Helms-Burton Law? This enables your government to punish non-U$ owned companies for trade with Cuba.

As for the UN, I believe the High Commisioner for Human Rights is Louise Arbour, of Canada.

The U$ is the ONLY "democracy" to deny parolees the right to vote, let alone prisoners:

The United States incarcerates more people per capita than any other country in the world. Eighteen European democracies permit incarcerated prisoners to vote, as do Canada and Puerto Rico. In the U.S., only the states of Maine and Vermont do so. No democracy other than the United States bars parolees from voting.

Source (http://www.gothamgazette.com/article/feature-commentary/20030217/202/285)

t_wolves_fan
2nd February 2005, 16:46
Your post was a cop-out.

Human Rights Watch is an international organization, not an arm of the U.S. Government.

I do not condone U.S. funding of anti-Castro operatives in Cuba.

Now, please answer my questions.

Commie Girl
2nd February 2005, 16:49
Originally posted by [email protected] 2 2005, 10:46 AM
Your post was a cop-out.

Human Rights Watch is an international organization, not an arm of the U.S. Government.

I do not condone U.S. funding of anti-Castro operatives in Cuba.

Now, please answer my questions.
? :blink:

I thought I did

t_wolves_fan
2nd February 2005, 16:59
"But it begs the question, why does Cuba imprison dissidents to the point that a huge bloc of pretty liberal nations would sanction it in any way?"

RevolutionaryLeftist
3rd February 2005, 12:34
Yes it is true that people flee from cuba, but don't people also leave the united states too?

trex
3rd February 2005, 13:32
True, if Cuba is 'heaven', and we Euro-Australian-Americans know all this about it, why aren't WE fleeing to Cuba? They say Canada flies airlines down there, so I suppose it wouldn't be hard to get in. So why isn't the world migrating to 'heaven'?

t_wolves_fan
3rd February 2005, 14:09
Originally posted by [email protected] 3 2005, 12:34 PM
Yes it is true that people flee from cuba, but don't people also leave the united states too?
Would you like to venture a guess as to the difference in numbers of people who risk their lives to immigrate to the U.S. illegally vs. the number of Americans who do so to leave?

Hell we had rich celebrities saying they'd move if Bush won reelection and they didn't do it.

Why do you think that is?

(R)evolution of the mind
3rd February 2005, 16:05
Originally posted by [email protected] 3 2005, 05:09 PM
Why do you think that is?
Family? Friends? It is not easy to move far away from those you are used to being around. And even if you admire the culture of another place, it can still be a shock.

t_wolves_fan
3rd February 2005, 16:38
Originally posted by ®evolution of the mind+Feb 3 2005, 04:05 PM--> (®evolution of the mind @ Feb 3 2005, 04:05 PM)
[email protected] 3 2005, 05:09 PM
Why do you think that is?
Family? Friends? It is not easy to move far away from those you are used to being around. And even if you admire the culture of another place, it can still be a shock. [/b]
The people who flee their home countries to come here do exactly that, so that cannot be it.

Assuming you are of the typical age and occupation of most posters here, can I assume that once you graduate high school and no longer live off of your parents, that you'll emigrate out of this capitalist hell? Or will you do it once they're done paying your tuition at school?

What's your next guess?

rightsaidtom
3rd February 2005, 17:08
I guess all of the Cubans that wash up on the shores of Florida get the Limbaugh letter. :rolleyes:

ernie
3rd February 2005, 17:37
What's your next guess?
I have one. It is because there are more people in the US that live well (how the US got wealthy is another topic of discussion) than in Cuba. I mean, there are more luxuries. Of course no American (and probably not many people from other countries either) in their right mind would give that up. That's how they are taught to be happy. It's a system. And it is that system which attracts people from all over the world. Sadly, from Cuba too. So, economically, yes, the US is more of a "heaven" than Cuba (not to say that there is no poverty in the US). Socially and spiritually,however , Cuba is well ahead of the US, and any other country as well.
By the way, I'm new here so I don't know if there is anything I'm supposed to do before I can reply...

t_wolves_fan
3rd February 2005, 17:57
Well now Ernie let's take a look...


I have one. It is because there are more people in the US that live well

More as a total number or more as a percentage?

Because if it's more as a number, then of course, because we're much bigger.

As a percentage, no, that is not it, because everyone in Cuba has the same standard of health a living, which is generally pretty good. Not great, but probably good enough that 99% of people would not swim 90 miles with sharks to avoid.


(how the US got wealthy is another topic of discussion)

Actually we are wealthy solely because of our work ethic and belief in progress. Yes we used slave labor for a time but nearly everything they built (the old south) was destroyed in the Civil War.

If you're going to talk exploitation of the third world, we are guilty of that only very slightly. The truth is it is the European nations that benefitted most from colonialism, as we've never had any real colonies outside of the Philippines, and only for a very short while.

Our wealth was primarily created before offshoring ever occurred.


I mean, there are more luxuries. Of course no American (and probably not many people from other countries either) in their right mind would give that up. That's how they are taught to be happy. It's a system.

And it is that system which attracts people from all over the world. Sadly, from Cuba too. So, economically, yes, the US is more of a "heaven" than Cuba (not to say that there is no poverty in the US).



Yes, to a point. Many Americans are made happy through material wealth. But, we are also the most charitable nation on earth, which is diametrically opposed to materialism. We are also the most religious nation on earth. Except maybe Bhutan. Or Vatican City, of course.

There is also the existence of the American posters on this board. None of them, I am sure, are made happy by material gain and so are theoretically outside this system you speak of. In theory, they should be more interested in living in Cuba; yet I have not read of one single person on this board who has fled the U.S. for Cuba.

Which brings up another point. You say Americans are socialized to love materialism and that is why they stay. Yet Cubans were not socialized to be materialistic.

Thus, if they are not as materialistic because they were not socialized to be so, the fact that more Cubans try to come here than the other way around refutes your assertion.


Socially and spiritually,however , Cuba is well ahead of the US, and any other country as well.

On what do you base this assertion?



By the way, I'm new here so I don't know if there is anything I'm supposed to do before I can reply...

Doesn't look like it.


:P

AslanLives
3rd February 2005, 17:59
Originally posted by [email protected] 3 2005, 05:08 PM
I guess all of the Cubans that wash up on the shores of Florida get the Limbaugh letter. :rolleyes:
They must like hell! :blink:

I would like to know specifically why Commie girl believes that the US is hell. We are having a problem with too many people illegally crossing our borders to get here.

t_wolves_fan
3rd February 2005, 18:11
Originally posted by AslanLives+Feb 3 2005, 05:59 PM--> (AslanLives @ Feb 3 2005, 05:59 PM)
[email protected] 3 2005, 05:08 PM
I guess all of the Cubans that wash up on the shores of Florida get the Limbaugh letter. :rolleyes:
They must like hell! :blink:

I would like to know specifically why Commie girl believes that the US is hell. We are having a problem with too many people illegally crossing our borders to get here. [/b]
But notice she doesn't live here.

Commie Girl
3rd February 2005, 18:25
Originally posted by t_wolves_fan+Feb 3 2005, 12:11 PM--> (t_wolves_fan @ Feb 3 2005, 12:11 PM)
Originally posted by [email protected] 3 2005, 05:59 PM

[email protected] 3 2005, 05:08 PM
I guess all of the Cubans that wash up on the shores of Florida get the Limbaugh letter. :rolleyes:
They must like hell! :blink:

I would like to know specifically why Commie girl believes that the US is hell. We are having a problem with too many people illegally crossing our borders to get here.
But notice she doesn't live here. [/b]
It'd be nice to know where you live, Aslan.....and no, I wouldnt cross the border to go to the U$, which is why I spend my vacations in Cuba, we are free to travel there, our government doesnt tell us where we can travel!

ernie
3rd February 2005, 18:47
As a percentage, no, that is not it, because everyone in Cuba has the same standard of health a living, which is generally pretty good. Not great, but probably good enough that 99% of people would not swim 90 miles with sharks to avoid.
When I said well, I actually meant fianancially. Yes, in Cuba most people have the same standard of living, but it is a low standard (which is a result of the government being poor). In the US, middle class families have an extremely higher standard of living than most people in Cuba. I don't know for a fact that the majority of American families are middle class, but I would guess that a good percentage of them are.

Actually we are wealthy solely because of our work ethic and belief in progress. Yes we used slave labor for a time but nearly everything they built (the old south) was destroyed in the Civil War.

If you're going to talk exploitation of the third world, we are guilty of that only very slightly. The truth is it is the European nations that benefitted most from colonialism, as we've never had any real colonies outside of the Philippines, and only for a very short while.

Our wealth was primarily created before offshoring ever occurred.
I have to say I don't agree with you here. Slave labor benefitted you much more than you think (appearently). Even if everything (I assume you mean plantations and buildings) was destroyed - and I am trusting you on that one - that still leaves the wealth accumulated by the slave-owners. Was that destroyed as well? Does that not make up part of your wealth?
And yes, I am going to talk exploitation of the third world. You are extremely guilty of it. You are currently more guilty of it than anyone else. In my country, there are hundreds of factories for american owned companies (Ford, Motorolla, etc...) Surely you don't the workers of such factories belong to the middle class (even by our standards). By the way, the country I am speaking of is Mexico. And I know places like India and Indonesia are even worse than us.
Finally, how about war? Do you not benefiet from the many wars you've waged?

But, we are also the most charitable nation on earth...
It would take you centuries to pay for all the damage you've done and the despair you've caused. BTW, when I say "you", I mean your government.

We are also the most religious nation on earth.
What does that have to do with anything?

Which brings up another point. You say Americans are socialized to love materialism and that is why they stay. Yet Cubans were not socialized to be materialistic.

Thus, if they are not as materialistic because they were not socialized to be so, the fact that more Cubans try to come here than the other way around refutes your assertion.
Don't you get it? The system is extremely attractive. All the glamour: Hollywood, Pro Sports, Music Biz, etc. I know this because almost everyone I know would rather live in the US. Cubans have access to very few luxuries. And the problem is that they are attracted to you because of those luxuries; to the whole take-me-out-to-the-ballgame" culture. Combine that with the fact that Cuba has serious economic problems, and you will get a bunch of people that want to go to the nearest materialistic heaven.

On what do you base this assertion?
On the fact that most Cubans would rather stay in their Cuba, where the wealth is divided equally (even if there is very little to go around). If Cubans were as socially primitive as Americans, Cuba would be empty by now.

AslanLives
3rd February 2005, 20:45
Originally posted by Commie Girl+Feb 3 2005, 06:25 PM--> (Commie Girl @ Feb 3 2005, 06:25 PM)
Originally posted by [email protected] 3 2005, 12:11 PM

Originally posted by [email protected] 3 2005, 05:59 PM

[email protected] 3 2005, 05:08 PM
I guess all of the Cubans that wash up on the shores of Florida get the Limbaugh letter. :rolleyes:
They must like hell! :blink:

I would like to know specifically why Commie girl believes that the US is hell. We are having a problem with too many people illegally crossing our borders to get here.
But notice she doesn't live here.
It'd be nice to know where you live, Aslan.....and no, I wouldnt cross the border to go to the U$, which is why I spend my vacations in Cuba, we are free to travel there, our government doesnt tell us where we can travel! [/b]
I live in the United States of America.

Perhaps you wouldnt cross over to our country, but many do. Can you explain that? Why are people flocking here, risking their lives to get here? Is hell that spendid? <_<

Enemy
3rd February 2005, 21:04
And yes, I am going to talk exploitation of the third world. You are extremely guilty of it. You are currently more guilty of it than anyone else. In my country, there are hundreds of factories for american owned companies (Ford, Motorolla, etc...) Surely you don&#39;t the workers of such factories belong to the middle class (even by our standards). By the way, the country I am speaking of is Mexico. And I know places like India and Indonesia are even worse than us.
Finally, how about war? Do you not benefiet from the many wars you&#39;ve waged?

They&#39;re not being exploited. How do you think America became rich? Those factories all used to be in America. Would you rather those factories not be there? Would you rather America not allow all your people to cross the border and get jobs? Your corrupt government loves it. They teach people how to get across the border without being caught. Yet, its funny. Your government stops Guatemalans from crossing into Mexico.
They even put their military on the border to help stop them.

Veritas
3rd February 2005, 22:54
Originally posted by Commie [email protected] 2 2005, 01:50 PM
:) Here are some suggestions:

Cuban Elections are a Fact&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33; (http://www.canadiandimension.mb.ca/v37/v37_4kw.htm)

U&#036; Sponsored Terrorism (http://www.poptel.org.uk/cuba-solidarity/CubaSi-Autumn/USViolence.html)
Cuban Elections. LOL

What does the balot look like?

Castro or Death: please pick one.

ernie
3rd February 2005, 22:58
Would you rather those factories not be there?
Yes, I would prefer that. Do you think I like it that my people are being exploited and paid shit while your coorporations get all the money?

Would you rather America not allow all your people to cross the border and get jobs?
What? They don&#39;t allow it&#33;

Your corrupt government loves it.
Yeah. They love it that americans are taking all the wealth...(BTW, how is their being corrupt relevant to the subject?)

They teach people how to get across the border without being caught.
Oh my god&#33; Even your fellow american capitalists here probably laughed when they read this one.

Your government stops Guatemalans from crossing into Mexico. They even put their military on the border to help stop them.
What&#39;s your point? Almost every nation tries to prevent illegal aliens from coming in (I don&#39;t agree with it). Again, totally irrelevant. By the way, have you crossed the Mexican/American border lately?

Commie Girl
3rd February 2005, 23:19
Originally posted by Veritas+Feb 3 2005, 04:54 PM--> (Veritas @ Feb 3 2005, 04:54 PM)
Commie [email protected] 2 2005, 01:50 PM
:) Here are some suggestions:

Cuban Elections are a Fact&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33; (http://www.canadiandimension.mb.ca/v37/v37_4kw.htm)

U&#036; Sponsored Terrorism (http://www.poptel.org.uk/cuba-solidarity/CubaSi-Autumn/USViolence.html)
Cuban Elections. LOL

What does the balot look like?

Castro or Death: please pick one. [/b]
<_< Obviously you didnt read the article, and this may be a stretch for you, but there is a different reality out there, and there are many styles of "democracy".....the Cuban style is much more grassroots than most....please read before opening yourself up with those ridiculous, uninformed comments.

Veritas
3rd February 2005, 23:26
Originally posted by Commie Girl+Feb 3 2005, 11:19 PM--> (Commie Girl &#064; Feb 3 2005, 11:19 PM)
Originally posted by [email protected] 3 2005, 04:54 PM

Commie [email protected] 2 2005, 01:50 PM
:) Here are some suggestions:

Cuban Elections are a Fact&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33; (http://www.canadiandimension.mb.ca/v37/v37_4kw.htm)

U&#036; Sponsored Terrorism (http://www.poptel.org.uk/cuba-solidarity/CubaSi-Autumn/USViolence.html)
Cuban Elections. LOL

What does the balot look like?

Castro or Death: please pick one.
<_< Obviously you didnt read the article, and this may be a stretch for you, but there is a different reality out there, and there are many styles of "democracy".....the Cuban style is much more grassroots than most....please read before opening yourself up with those ridiculous, uninformed comments.
[/b]
I did read the link. The first article on the link was some nonsense about Castro walking on water. I&#39;m sure the rest of it is just as factual.


Fidel immediately leaped over the wall and into the water ‹ where, to everyone¹s amazement, he found himself walking on top of the waves. Taking this in stride, Fidel glided across the water, picked up the mitre, climbed back out, and handed the headpiece back to the Pope.

Militant
3rd February 2005, 23:29
Originally posted by Veritas+Feb 3 2005, 11:26 PM--> (Veritas @ Feb 3 2005, 11:26 PM)
Originally posted by Commie [email protected] 3 2005, 11:19 PM

Originally posted by [email protected] 3 2005, 04:54 PM

Commie [email protected] 2 2005, 01:50 PM
:) Here are some suggestions:

Cuban Elections are a Fact&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33; (http://www.canadiandimension.mb.ca/v37/v37_4kw.htm)

U&#036; Sponsored Terrorism (http://www.poptel.org.uk/cuba-solidarity/CubaSi-Autumn/USViolence.html)
Cuban Elections. LOL

What does the balot look like?

Castro or Death: please pick one.
<_< Obviously you didnt read the article, and this may be a stretch for you, but there is a different reality out there, and there are many styles of "democracy".....the Cuban style is much more grassroots than most....please read before opening yourself up with those ridiculous, uninformed comments.

I did read the link. The first article on the link was some nonsense about Castro walking on water. I&#39;m sure the rest of it is just as factual.


Fidel immediately leaped over the wall and into the water ‹ where, to everyone¹s amazement, he found himself walking on top of the waves. Taking this in stride, Fidel glided across the water, picked up the mitre, climbed back out, and handed the headpiece back to the Pope. [/b]
I guess the second word of the article elude you.

That word: joke.

Commie Girl
3rd February 2005, 23:36
Originally posted by Veritas+Feb 3 2005, 05:26 PM--> (Veritas @ Feb 3 2005, 05:26 PM)
Originally posted by Commie [email protected] 3 2005, 11:19 PM

Originally posted by [email protected] 3 2005, 04:54 PM

Commie [email protected] 2 2005, 01:50 PM
:) Here are some suggestions:

Cuban Elections are a Fact&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33; (http://www.canadiandimension.mb.ca/v37/v37_4kw.htm)

U&#036; Sponsored Terrorism (http://www.poptel.org.uk/cuba-solidarity/CubaSi-Autumn/USViolence.html)
Cuban Elections. LOL

What does the balot look like?

Castro or Death: please pick one.
<_< Obviously you didnt read the article, and this may be a stretch for you, but there is a different reality out there, and there are many styles of "democracy".....the Cuban style is much more grassroots than most....please read before opening yourself up with those ridiculous, uninformed comments.

I did read the link. The first article on the link was some nonsense about Castro walking on water. I&#39;m sure the rest of it is just as factual.


Fidel immediately leaped over the wall and into the water ‹ where, to everyone¹s amazement, he found himself walking on top of the waves. Taking this in stride, Fidel glided across the water, picked up the mitre, climbed back out, and handed the headpiece back to the Pope. [/b]
:blink: Go ahead, now that we helped you with the second word, maybe you could finish the article, perhaps learn something?

Commie Girl
3rd February 2005, 23:39
Originally posted by AslanLives+Feb 3 2005, 11:59 AM--> (AslanLives @ Feb 3 2005, 11:59 AM)
[email protected] 3 2005, 05:08 PM
I guess all of the Cubans that wash up on the shores of Florida get the Limbaugh letter. :rolleyes:
They must like hell&#33; :blink:

I would like to know specifically why Commie girl believes that the US is hell. We are having a problem with too many people illegally crossing our borders to get here. [/b]
:P I believe it was Fidel who said the U&#036; was hell, not I.

NovelGentry
3rd February 2005, 23:40
But it begs the question, why does Cuba imprison dissidents

We could ask the same about the US, except the second part of your question implies a conditional. US political prisoners are often justified by even less worthy "crimes" than those of Cubans. Up until I think 2000, Amnesty International had much of the same arguments against US political prisoners as they (and thus the US) did against Cuban political prisoners. At some point names like Leonard Peltier were removed from their list of political prisoners, and since then I&#39;m unaware that Amnesty has made any recognition to US political prisoners. Peltier is still in jail last I checked; Amnesty has yet to justify their decision to remove comments about Peltier and other US Political prisoners to my knowledge. I&#39;d love to be proved wrong if they have justified it though, for no other cause than to see their reasoning.

Commie Girl
3rd February 2005, 23:48
Let&#39;s try this for an example:

I am living in the U&#036;, I receive alot of money from a nameless foreign government, meet regularily with staff from their embassy, and actively work to overthrow the U&#036; government...would I be put in prison?

Maybe that will help you understand why Cuba has the right to protect their sovereignty&#33;

Veritas
4th February 2005, 00:00
Originally posted by Militant+Feb 3 2005, 11:29 PM--> (Militant @ Feb 3 2005, 11:29 PM)
Originally posted by [email protected] 3 2005, 11:26 PM

Originally posted by Commie [email protected] 3 2005, 11:19 PM

Originally posted by [email protected] 3 2005, 04:54 PM

Commie [email protected] 2 2005, 01:50 PM
:) Here are some suggestions:

Cuban Elections are a Fact&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33; (http://www.canadiandimension.mb.ca/v37/v37_4kw.htm)

U&#036; Sponsored Terrorism (http://www.poptel.org.uk/cuba-solidarity/CubaSi-Autumn/USViolence.html)
Cuban Elections. LOL

What does the balot look like?

Castro or Death: please pick one.
<_< Obviously you didnt read the article, and this may be a stretch for you, but there is a different reality out there, and there are many styles of "democracy".....the Cuban style is much more grassroots than most....please read before opening yourself up with those ridiculous, uninformed comments.

I did read the link. The first article on the link was some nonsense about Castro walking on water. I&#39;m sure the rest of it is just as factual.


Fidel immediately leaped over the wall and into the water ‹ where, to everyone¹s amazement, he found himself walking on top of the waves. Taking this in stride, Fidel glided across the water, picked up the mitre, climbed back out, and handed the headpiece back to the Pope.
I guess the second word of the article elude you.

That word: joke. [/b]
OK, I&#39;ll give you the joke thing, but you have to admit, Castro was not elected and can&#39;t be thrown out by an election.

progressive thinker
4th February 2005, 00:12
Originally posted by Commie [email protected] 3 2005, 11:48 PM
Let&#39;s try this for an example:

I am living in the U&#036;, I receive alot of money from a nameless foreign government, meet regularily with staff from their embassy, and actively work to overthrow the U&#036; government...would I be put in prison?

Maybe that will help you understand why Cuba has the right to protect their sovereignty&#33;
Nope you could just claim McCarthyism. That always works.
:D

And I believe the Cuban ballot looks more like this:

I, Fidel Castro, am dictator. Anyone wishing to leave, don&#39;t worry, there isn&#39;t any traffic heading into Cuba so you shouldn&#39;t have any problem.

I guess I should ask my Chemical Engineering professor why on earth she chose to come to the Capitalist Oppressor of the world rather than stay in Cuba. I don&#39;t see how anyone would want choice and personal freedom. They&#39;re myths anyway, because McCarthyism exists all around us. I bet they&#39;re watching us right now&#33;
:ph34r: