What was your defining moment?

[t_wolves_fan]

What event or time in your life was the defining moment, when you decided you all were opposed to capitalism and, in general, the United States?

[Questionauthority]

When I realised as a 13 year old it was brutally unfair that a coffee picker got paid next to nothing while Starbucks made millions....just the idea, considering we are all equal, seems rather wrong to me, but might appeal to you

[Publius]

So you noticed that people were unequal.

Than you state that people are equal

If we were actually equal wouldn't we be equal now?



Equality is shit. You aren't equal to me and I'm not equal to you.

We're different.

[(R)evolution of the mind]

For the first 20 years or so of my life I was rather apolitical, not content nor discontent with the status quo. Many of my relatives and some friends parents' were farmers and almost everyone supported a petit-bourgeois party that had once been a farmers' party. After entering university I finally had access to the internet from the dorm room and started picking up some leftist ideas, but except for vehement opposition to "intellectual property" (bits are abundant and there is no need to control them; IP only serves to create artificial scarcity) I was still mostly apolitical until I graduated and had to get a job. It was the authoritarian environment of the capitalist workpace that finally put me to think of alternative ways of organising society. At some point less than a year ago I discovered some anarchist writings and realised that the ideas presented in those are pretty much what I think too.

[STI]

Publius, don't play word games.

It was a gradual thing for me. There was no "defining moment".

[Publius]

For the first 20 years or so of my life I was rather apolitical, not content nor discontent with the status quo. Many of my relatives and some friends parents' were farmers and almost everyone supported a petit-bourgeois party that had once been a farmers' party. After entering university I finally had access to the internet from the dorm room and started picking up some leftist ideas, but except for vehement opposition to "intellectual property" (bits are abundant and there is no need to control them; IP only serves to create artificial scarcity) I was still mostly apolitical until I graduated and had to get a job. It was the authoritarian environment of the capitalist workpace that finally put me to think of alternative ways of organising society. At some point less than a year ago I discovered some anarchist writings and realised that the ideas presented in those are pretty much what I think too.

"After getting on my computer which existed only because of IP laws, I proceeded to Google "IP fascist" and quickly learned how bad IP is"

[Publius]

Publius, don't play word games.

It was a gradual thing for me. There was no "defining moment".

Yes sir. No word games sir. Thank you sir, may I have another?


He says people are equal yet claims that we aren't equal?

What's behind this apparent contradiction?

Perhaps the fact that equal oppurtunity does not gurantee equal outcomes? That no two people are equal in terms of talents, skill, drive or ambition?

Or that capitalism is evil? (Even though abstract concepts such as political systems cannot be inherently good or evil and it is fully up the people how each system behaves and it's utterly ludicrous to think that the same greedy people who ruin capitalism could be selfless in communism, as if their very being could be changed, but of course most Marxists don't even understand Marx. Marx stated that humanity was a collective that shared one mind and it was due to wage slavery that people were greedy, not because it made people meterialistic, but because people were seperated from the one mind that comprised humanity and collecivism would do nothing but reunite men humanity not because it made sense economically, but because it made sense spiritually. They don't realize Marx wasn't a third rate economist but a third rate philosopher.)

[FriedFrog]

He says people are equal yet claims that we aren't equal?

I think he means that at the present time, people are treated as unequals. However, he belives all people should, one day, be treated the same.

And so he should.

My conversion to a leftist way of thinking was gradual aswell, helped by friends (one in particular) who provided me with the basics and ideas that I decided i agreed with.

[amusing foibles]

I was kidnapped as a young child by Russian-funded communist extremists from my comfortable suburban home (earned by hard work and American thriftiness), and brainwashed into hating freedom.

[Urban Rubble]

It amazes me how completely fucking clueless some of you are about our ideology. If you're going to attempt to belittle everything we believe in, you could at least have a slight understanding of what it is you're belittling.

I don't believe every person is equal. I am a much better skateboarder than my friend Kyle, however, he is much stronger than me and is a better construction worker. All I ask is that I am given as much of an oppurtunity to prove myself as Kyle.

Everyone doesn't want to go to college, however, everyone should have the OPPURUNITY to go to college if they wish. Many people aren't interested or simply aren't as intelligent, so they would go find other work. All that matters is equal oppurtunity, not total equality. I don't think every citizen should have the exact same size house and the same amount of possessions. I simply think every person deserves to be given a chance.

[RagsToRevolution]

When I was ten, living in a tiny town in Oklahoma, I read a entry in my history book on "socialism." It was a hopelessly bourgeois explanation, but I thought "Why doesn't the United States use this?" So I began to study, though not much, I didn't have access to much. But I never trusted anything said about communism. It didn't compute, and from what I knew, it made all sorts of sense. I was a naive little kid, but I didn't go far.

Then there was this hazy period in my life that I was completely apolitical.

Then recently, during 9/11, and finally watching how the world around me is crumbling, it clicked in me, and suddenly I became almost fanatical in politics, moving from centrism, to liberalism, and finally, after pursuing my curiosities and reading the Communist Manifesto, leftism. I have gravitated away from Leninism which originally inspired me to agnostic Marxism, but now, I am beginning to learn more about Council Communism. That is the short story.

[Publius]

It amazes me how completely fucking clueless some of you are about our ideology. If you're going to attempt to belittle everything we believe in, you could at least have a slight understanding of what it is you're belittling.

I don't believe every person is equal. I am a much better skateboarder than my friend Kyle, however, he is much stronger than me and is a better construction worker. All I ask is that I am given as much of an oppurtunity to prove myself as Kyle.

Everyone doesn't want to go to college, however, everyone should have the OPPURUNITY to go to college if they wish. Many people aren't interested or simply aren't as intelligent, so they would go find other work. All that matters is equal oppurtunity, not total equality. I don't think every citizen should have the exact same size house and the same amount of possessions. I simply think every person deserves to be given a chance.

Everyone has a choice.

If you're smart, you can get scholarships and loans to go to school.

That's perfectly fair.

Everyone is given a chance. Congratulations, your utopia has arrived.

[RhetoricalAbsurdity]

I really have had no defining moment. For me, I've always had Communist ideals, I just didn't always call them Communist. But I do remember when I first put a name to them. I was in sixth grade, a time when I really wasn't too interested in politics. For English class, I believe, we had to write an essay and give a sketch of what we thought would be the "perfect" society (we were reading either Farenheit 451, or some other book similar to it). I wrote three or four pages explaining how land, food, clothing, etc would be equally distributed, how there wouldn't really be a government, but people would rule themselves, pretty much a very elementary description of a Communist society. At the time, I wasn't really aware that such a political/economic philosophy existed, but I showed my mom the paper for revision, and she told me "That's been done before, and it failed. It's called Communism." That sort of shocked me, all my life I'd been told "Communism is evil!", and here I was, apparently a Communist myself. But after talking with my mom, and further reflection on the subject, I trashed my first paper and wrote a new one stating there was no such thing as an ideal society. And while the second paper was right, from that point on I became secretly interested in Communism and began reading up on it. So I suppose you could call that the "defining moment" of my interest in politics.

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

Originally posted by [email protected] 1 2005, 03:23 PM
So you noticed that people were unequal.

Than you state that people are equal

If we were actually equal wouldn't we be equal now?



Equality is shit. You aren't equal to me and I'm not equal to you.

We're different.
Goddamn, you're misinformed.
Noob capitalists are my favorite.

Equal in status, not in existence.
Don't be a fucking dumbshit.

[Essential Insignificance]

What event or time in your life was the defining moment, when you decided you all were opposed to capitalism and, in general, the United States?

Such an honest question requires an honest answer.

I don't think I had a "defining moment" (few do) has such.

Instead... it was a gradual and ongoing evolution over a number of years.

And here I am today.

[Zingu]

It grew on me, now that I look back on it; I actually thought like a leftist in many times.

I never became a patriot since I am a dual citizen and have lived in three different countries in my life of 16 years.

Lots of my family has working class backround, especially in Finland. I never grew up in a consumerist culture, I grew up without a TV in the household. I also, in Georgia, went to an almost all black school, where I was one of the 5 white kids in the whole school.

Then when to moving to the uber rich San Diego, I started to see the differences in wealth disaparity.

Its good to be well traveled!

[redstar2000]

Defining moment: the U.S.-sponsered invasion of Cuba, April 16, 1961, Playa Girón ("Bay of Pigs").

http://www.historyofcuba.com/history/baypigs/pigs.htm

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/123.gif

[comrade_mufasa]

Originally posted by [email protected] 1 2005, 07:30 PM


It amazes me how completely fucking clueless some of you are about our ideology. If you're going to attempt to belittle everything we believe in, you could at least have a slight understanding of what it is you're belittling.

I don't believe every person is equal. I am a much better skateboarder than my friend Kyle, however, he is much stronger than me and is a better construction worker. All I ask is that I am given as much of an oppurtunity to prove myself as Kyle.

Everyone doesn't want to go to college, however, everyone should have the OPPURUNITY to go to college if they wish. Many people aren't interested or simply aren't as intelligent, so they would go find other work. All that matters is equal oppurtunity, not total equality. I don't think every citizen should have the exact same size house and the same amount of possessions. I simply think every person deserves to be given a chance.

Everyone has a choice.

If you're smart, you can get scholarships and loans to go to school.

That's perfectly fair.

Everyone is given a chance. Congratulations, your utopia has arrived.
here is a story:

this kid in the city is very smart and lives with his mother, but he is very poor. his father is in jail for selling crack becouse he needed to pay his bills and the job at Lucky&#39;s supermarket does not pay well. his mother is working all the time and still cant pay the bills, buy food, new shoes for herself or him, and get a new mattress for herself so now she has back problems. He was getting good grades in school but had to drop out to work at Lucky&#39;s, hustle used car parts, and sell dope all so he can help his mom pay the bills and buy food (this all with out his mom knowing). The police raid his supplers who were trying to help him escape throgh a window of the building so he would not get cought, but the cops rush in and start to beat him becouse he was "resisting arrest". well so much for being smart and getting a schoolership. did he have a chance <_< i would like you to give me a example of were he could have had a chance in this story.


Congratulations, your utopia has arrived.
no. capitalism still exist.

[comrade_mufasa]

Originally posted by [email protected] 1 2005, 08:10 PM
I really have had no defining moment. For me, I&#39;ve always had Communist ideals, I just didn&#39;t always call them Communist. But I do remember when I first put a name to them. I was in sixth grade, a time when I really wasn&#39;t too interested in politics. For English class, I believe, we had to write an essay and give a sketch of what we thought would be the "perfect" society (we were reading either Farenheit 451, or some other book similar to it). I wrote three or four pages explaining how land, food, clothing, etc would be equally distributed, how there wouldn&#39;t really be a government, but people would rule themselves, pretty much a very elementary description of a Communist society. At the time, I wasn&#39;t really aware that such a political/economic philosophy existed, but I showed my mom the paper for revision, and she told me "That&#39;s been done before, and it failed. It&#39;s called Communism." That sort of shocked me, all my life I&#39;d been told "Communism is evil&#33;", and here I was, apparently a Communist myself. But after talking with my mom, and further reflection on the subject, I trashed my first paper and wrote a new one stating there was no such thing as an ideal society. And while the second paper was right, from that point on I became secretly interested in Communism and began reading up on it. So I suppose you could call that the "defining moment" of my interest in politics.
that sounds like me. i never had to do a report on a perfect socitey, but i have all ways had this idea of everything evenly distrabuted to everyone and no goverment becouse i could never find out what the point of the president was if we could just vote on new laws and stuff. Plus my mom would all ways say "nothing in this house is yours, your brother&#39;s, your father&#39;s or mine it is for all of us. Now stop eating all of the pudding your brother would like some" :lol: that has all ways stuck with me. Also i remeber watching the Godfather and liking how everyone shared in the familys earnings and no one ever was above anyone (many people dont relize that the godfather&#39;s postition did not give him rule over the family it just was becouse he had a lot of wisdom, but he could be out voted) and everyone had a say in everything.

[(R)evolution of the mind]

Originally posted by [email protected] 2 2005, 03:30 AM
Everyone has a choice.

If you&#39;re smart, you can get scholarships and loans to go to school.

That&#39;s perfectly fair.

Everyone is given a chance. Congratulations, your utopia has arrived.
No. The rich has every choice. The rest of us only have the chance of the dice. Scholarships are few and even if you&#39;re smart, you may not get one. Your chance to prove yourself capable of whatever you would like to do is aborted before you can even begin. Loans with huge interests to be paid to capitalist masters for the rest of your life are hardly an option.

[Sabocat]

My defining moment?

The Lady of the Lake, her arm clad in the purest shimmering samite held aloft Excalibur from the bosom of the water, signifying by divine providence that I.....

[t_wolves_fan]

here is a story:

this kid in the city is very smart and lives with his mother, but he is very poor. his father is in jail for selling crack becouse he needed to pay his bills and the job at Lucky&#39;s supermarket does not pay well. his mother is working all the time and still cant pay the bills, buy food, new shoes for herself or him, and get a new mattress for herself so now she has back problems. He was getting good grades in school but had to drop out to work at Lucky&#39;s, hustle used car parts, and sell dope all so he can help his mom pay the bills and buy food (this all with out his mom knowing). The police raid his supplers who were trying to help him escape throgh a window of the building so he would not get cought, but the cops rush in and start to beat him becouse he was "resisting arrest". well so much for being smart and getting a schoolership. did he have a chance <_< i would like you to give me a example of were he could have had a chance in this story.


Easy. The mother should have turned to her family or private charity or any number of government services for help. The kid could have gotten a part-time job to help with expenses.

Further, he should have looked at his father&#39;s mistakes and learned that crime is not the answer. Under no circumstances is he justified in selling drugs or hustling stolen car parts. That he is in jail is entirely his fault.

[t_wolves_fan]

Originally posted by Urban [email protected] 1 2005, 11:07 PM
It amazes me how completely fucking clueless some of you are about our ideology. If you&#39;re going to attempt to belittle everything we believe in, you could at least have a slight understanding of what it is you&#39;re belittling.

I don&#39;t believe every person is equal. I am a much better skateboarder than my friend Kyle, however, he is much stronger than me and is a better construction worker. All I ask is that I am given as much of an oppurtunity to prove myself as Kyle.

Everyone doesn&#39;t want to go to college, however, everyone should have the OPPURUNITY to go to college if they wish. Many people aren&#39;t interested or simply aren&#39;t as intelligent, so they would go find other work. All that matters is equal oppurtunity, not total equality. I don&#39;t think every citizen should have the exact same size house and the same amount of possessions. I simply think every person deserves to be given a chance.
How, specifically, would you ensure everyone has the opportunity to go to college?

[comrade_mufasa]

Originally posted by [email protected] 2 2005, 08:01 AM


here is a story:

this kid in the city is very smart and lives with his mother, but he is very poor. his father is in jail for selling crack becouse he needed to pay his bills and the job at Lucky&#39;s supermarket does not pay well. his mother is working all the time and still cant pay the bills, buy food, new shoes for herself or him, and get a new mattress for herself so now she has back problems. He was getting good grades in school but had to drop out to work at Lucky&#39;s, hustle used car parts, and sell dope all so he can help his mom pay the bills and buy food (this all with out his mom knowing). The police raid his supplers who were trying to help him escape throgh a window of the building so he would not get cought, but the cops rush in and start to beat him becouse he was "resisting arrest". well so much for being smart and getting a schoolership. did he have a chance <_< i would like you to give me a example of were he could have had a chance in this story.


Easy. The mother should have turned to her family or private charity or any number of government services for help. The kid could have gotten a part-time job to help with expenses.

Further, he should have looked at his father&#39;s mistakes and learned that crime is not the answer. Under no circumstances is he justified in selling drugs or hustling stolen car parts. That he is in jail is entirely his fault.
The mother&#39;s family is as poor as she is. Wow :rolleyes: a charity were they would have give her some food for the week. that does not solve her problems. She did go to the goverment. she waited in line for hours with other single mothers just to be put on a very long waiting list to get a meeting that will decide if she is just eligable for the next waiting list that is for the meeting to tell her what she has to do in order to get help. in case any capitailst here did no "the goverment is a *****". if you read the story the boy did get a part time job, but it pays crap. Well since the part time job pays crap there is not much else he can do, but selling drugs and hustling will atleast pay the rent and get him some new shoes. plus he is saving the rest of the money. He would rather not sell drugs but he has to survive himself or is it wrong to try and give your self a better life?


How, specifically, would you ensure everyone has the opportunity to go to college?
well let me use the story above as a refrence. The mother does not have to work for food, so the boy does not have to hustle and stays in school. when he is 17 he decides to go to college and goes. college is free. thats right he can get his full medical degree and not have to worry about not having money to eat. if someone would like to go to college they go. i think thats fair opportunity for everyone.

[t_wolves_fan]

The mother&#39;s family is as poor as she is. Wow :rolleyes:

So? They could live together to share expenses and for childcare purposes.


a charity were they would have give her some food for the week. that does not solve her problems.

Not necessarily, most charities provide aid for longer terms. The ones I&#39;ve been involved with have, anyway.


She did go to the goverment. she waited in line for hours with other single mothers just to be put on a very long waiting list to get a meeting that will decide if she is just eligable for the next waiting list that is for the meeting to tell her what she has to do in order to get help.

Yah, is it really that bad? Do you have evidence?


in case any capitailst here did no "the goverment is a *****". if you read the story the boy did get a part time job, but it pays crap. Well since the part time job pays crap there is not much else he can do, but selling drugs and hustling will atleast pay the rent and get him some new shoes.

Sharing rent with family will get the rent paid and he can get shoes from another charity. Everytime I drop stuff off at Goodwill I see plenty of shoes.


plus he is saving the rest of the money. He would rather not sell drugs but he has to survive himself or is it wrong to try and give your self a better life?

To do so criminally, yes it is. Especially considering drug dealers seem to have an awfully difficult time stopping at paying the rent and buying food, if you catch my drift.


well let me use the story above as a refrence. The mother does not have to work for food, so the boy does not have to hustle and stays in school. when he is 17 he decides to go to college and goes. college is free. thats right he can get his full medical degree and not have to worry about not having money to eat. if someone would like to go to college they go. i think thats fair opportunity for everyone.

I would tend to agree with you on providing welfare in the form of free food and free college to the people in this situation, providing somehow that it not become a lifestyle; nor a guarantee that this hypothetical family have some standard of living that keeps up with the joneses. With that I really have no problem.

[EneME]

Originally posted by [email protected] 1 2005, 05:03 PM
What event or time in your life was the defining moment, when you decided you all were opposed to capitalism and, in general, the United States?
uh a whole series of events....

-the U&#036; backing of a supposed "democratic" government in my country, that was actually massacring people....(LOTS of trauma)

-my mother worked in a sweatshop for 15 years, and I still have family that do...one for Tommy Hilfiger I might add..

-grew up poor in the inner city, U&#036;A....no health care ever, poor public schooling, witness to lots of poverty and hopelessness etc.

-been to third world countries and have seen supposed "progress" or "development" with my own eyes with huge malls and freeways, while you watch little 4 year olds sitting in the rain under a tarp while their mother sells newspapers on the side of the street and his older 6 year old sister sells candy in between the lanes of a downtown six lane road.

but..THATS all...no biggy&#33;

[Martyr_Machine]

Originally posted by [email protected] 1 2005, 06:25 PM
When I realised as a 13 year old it was brutally unfair that a coffee picker got paid next to nothing while Starbucks made millions....just the idea, considering we are all equal, seems rather wrong to me, but might appeal to you
Maybe that&#39;s bacause starbucks makes better coffee. Did it ever occur to you that the coffee picker doesnt exist in several thousand cities across america, and serve millions of people every year?

[EneME]

Originally posted by Martyr_Machine+Feb 3 2005, 02:24 AM--> (Martyr_Machine &#064; Feb 3 2005, 02:24 AM)
[email protected] 1 2005, 06:25 PM
When I realised as a 13 year old it was brutally unfair that a coffee picker got paid next to nothing while Starbucks made millions....just the idea, considering we are all equal, seems rather wrong to me, but might appeal to you
Maybe that&#39;s bacause starbucks makes better coffee. Did it ever occur to you that the coffee picker doesnt exist in several thousand cities across america, and serve millions of people every year? [/b]
WHAT?&#33; They are the ones that pick the beans FOR STARBUCKS. And YES they do exist in "several thousand cities across america, and serve millions of people every year" because they are in pratically every freakin cup of coffee served in this COUNTRY&#33; Last time I heard there weren&#39;t any coffee plantations IN THE U&#036;A.

[comrade_mufasa]

So? They could live together to share expenses and for childcare purposes.
:lol: it is more then obvious you are not poor. would you like to live with 15 people in a 2 bedroom, 1 bathroom apartment.


Not necessarily, most charities provide aid for longer terms. The ones I&#39;ve been involved with have, anyway.
what im try to say is you cant live off charities. charities are good but they dont solve the problems of the poor.


Yah, is it really that bad? Do you have evidence?
again, it is more then obvious you are not poor.


Sharing rent with family will get the rent paid and he can get shoes from another charity. Everytime I drop stuff off at Goodwill I see plenty of shoes.
I talked about this sharing rent sitation. So people who can not afford new shoes must get used shoes. why cant the government give them new shoes why must the settle for second best?


To do so criminally, yes it is. Especially considering drug dealers seem to have an awfully difficult time stopping at paying the rent and buying food, if you catch my drift.
How many drug dealers do you know? The ones you know of are not drug dealers they are drug lords that are on top of the drug buisness. if you come from nothing then you have money i dont get sick if you buy yourself a new car. If you dont take care of your peoples is when i get mad.


Originally posted by Martyr_Machine+Feb 2 2005, 09:24 PM--> (Martyr_Machine &#064; Feb 2 2005, 09:24 PM)
[email protected] 1 2005, 06:25 PM
When I realised as a 13 year old it was brutally unfair that a coffee picker got paid next to nothing while Starbucks made millions....just the idea, considering we are all equal, seems rather wrong to me, but might appeal to you
Maybe that&#39;s bacause starbucks makes better coffee. Did it ever occur to you that the coffee picker doesnt exist in several thousand cities across america, and serve millions of people every year? [/b]
did it ever occur to you that if all the coffee pickers didnt pick any coffee then starbucks would not have to much product. :angry:

[Martyr_Machine]

Originally posted by comrade_mufasa+Feb 3 2005, 02:32 AM--> (comrade_mufasa @ Feb 3 2005, 02:32 AM)
Originally posted by [email protected] 2 2005, 09:24 PM

[email protected] 1 2005, 06:25 PM
When I realised as a 13 year old it was brutally unfair that a coffee picker got paid next to nothing while Starbucks made millions....just the idea, considering we are all equal, seems rather wrong to me, but might appeal to you
Maybe that&#39;s bacause starbucks makes better coffee. Did it ever occur to you that the coffee picker doesnt exist in several thousand cities across america, and serve millions of people every year?
did it ever occur to you that if all the coffee pickers didnt pick any coffee then starbucks would not have to much product. :angry: [/b]
Very true, and its a shame that the coffe picker isnt paid more. But that&#39;s what socialism does for you. Thanks to corporate welfare, Starbuck doesnt need to pay the coffee picker a decent wage, bacause the CEO gets rich regardless.

In a free-market capitalist society, if Starbucks gave it to its employees up the ass, they would leave, and the corporation would go bankrupt, because there would be no welfare to support it.

[RevolutionaryLeftist]

I used to buy the lies of all that capitalist bullshit, but i don&#39;t beleive it anymore. im 17 and when i am old and retired i will not recieve social sercurity&#33; how fucked up is that? im paying for the generation before me, and then i don&#39;t get the same in return. thats the system for you. you give and you get nothing back. all the money we give the the united states govt that they spend on fucking stupid bullshit. at least 5 billion dollars are being spent on the war in Iraq...every month&#33; It sucks that all that money could be put to some good use, for the cure of AIDS, or Cancer.

[Martyr_Machine]

Originally posted by [email protected] 3 2005, 02:47 AM
I used to buy the lies of all that capitalist bullshit, but i don&#39;t beleive it anymore. im 17 and when i am old and retired i will not recieve social sercurity&#33; how fucked up is that? im paying for the generation before me, and then i don&#39;t get the same in return. thats the system for you. you give and you get nothing back. all the money we give the the united states govt that they spend on fucking stupid bullshit. at least 5 billion dollars are being spent on the war in Iraq...every month&#33; It sucks that all that money could be put to some good use, for the cure of AIDS, or Cancer.
If you think america is capitalist, you&#39;ve got a lot to learn.

[RevolutionaryLeftist]

If you think america is capitalist, you&#39;ve got a lot to learn.

You&#39;re shitting me right? America not capitalist? why would i complain about this gov&#39;t if it wasnt&#39; capitalist? why would all these people be on this website if they weren&#39;t complaining about the capitalist govt of the united states of america?

[encephalon]

plubius, you are unfortunately seriously misinformed. As I suggest to anyone, if you actually want something to be your enemy then you first must know what it is. You cannot logically nor justifiably argue against something you know nothing about.

I&#39;vw always leaned towards the left. The onyl thing that really stopped me from accepting the term "communist" as it applies to myself was the propaganda war against it. It wasn&#39;t until I thought more about how society and the individual intertwine that I ran into the concept of alienation, which in turn led to learning about communism.. though I didn&#39;t know it at the time. It wasn&#39;t until I read about Marx, and therefore many of his works, that I learned that I was in fact a communist already.

[Essential Insignificance]

If you think america is capitalist, you&#39;ve got a lot to learn.

:lol: :lol: :lol:

Even for a "capitalist"... that is beyond a reply&#33; :lol:

[NovelGentry]

The "not capitalist" argument is based on the classical free market capitalism compared to neocapitalism which is a form of regulated capitalism (and in my opinion far worse). Both are capitalism, they both succeed to make their primary goal the creation of capital.

General responses

On my defining moment

Much of my childhood was spent waiting in lines for food stamps or to ensure we qualified for food stamps. Eventually we stopped qualifying for foodstamps because my parents had a combined income that was over the accepted range for those in need of help.

It seems almost strange to look back now, becaue we have gotten out of that level of lower class that we were in. But to all those who see this as justification for the system, to those that think my story is proof of it&#39;s "fairness." I see nothing fair about two parents at work, one who works over 80 hours a week, the other working over 40.

We used to have to stay at my Aunt&#39;s house every weekend because my parents were working and we were too young to be on our own. I didn&#39;t mind this, to me it was just a weekend vacation where we watched movies and ate popcorn. My grandmother (who&#39;s house it actually is where my Aunt still lives) used to make me hot cocoa for breakfast, how awesome is that&#33;

I look back now and realize two and a half out of seven days a week, nearly 30% of my childhood, was spent with someone other than my mother and father. Luckily I had family who cared, and who was OK with this "childcare service." Had my mom had to pay for daycare, I highly doubt we would have been able to even squeeze out where we did.

When I wasn&#39;t with my aunt I was mostly found in banks. My parents tried desperately to get various loans some at better rates than others, simply so we could afford to pay monthlies and keep the house at the same time. When they weren&#39;t trying for loans they were trying for the so called government aid.

Even still this was not a defining moment for me, I was far too young, far too naive of what was going on. Today I look back and it doesn&#39;t even seem like me. Yet today I still find similarities. My mother still works two jobs, to pay off the house that she never quite got paid and to pay off loans that consolidated loans from nearly 10 years ago. My father is dead. He was laid off from his primary job as a line cook at the nursing home where my mother works after the state refused to pay disability anymore (his back was broken in an on the job accident). He returned after he got better to various small line cook jobs, none ever being as much as he made there (his job of 7 years or so at that point). It simply wasn&#39;t enough. Always looking for better he would skip from one place to another, eventually finding work back in a machine shop (one of his original trade skills).

After having been laid off repeatedly from the same machine shop, always to return for a little bit less money, he was laid off for good. He collected unemployment until he was able to find work again. Still, this was not with any one of his previous employers, but with a friend of my brother&#39;s boss who was a carpenter. This is the job he worked until the day he died, under the table, away from the possibility of a serious retirement plan or unemployment benefits, or any other benefits that come with a state recognized job.

In some ways I think it helped our family a lot when he died. It&#39;s sad to say it would take that, but it did. His death gave us life insurance money from a policy my mom kept "just in case." Without a retirement fund he has a bit of cash saved up (8,000 + some in a bank account) hardly enough to cover him had he did want to ever retire.

Even still, none of this was my defining moment. Instead my defining moment came not from my life experience, but from my own conclusions after having read Marx. It&#39;s impossible to even relate myself to those who have it so much worse off, and even my family was lucky enough to be born amongst upper lower class. This, combined with the outrageous effort of my mother, who I owe my life to for the work she did, allows me today to say that I am middle class. Becoming upper middle class would be an impossibility at this point. With my dad gone and my mom exhausted still, we have little other source for income. I myself have worked numerous jobs to help as much as I can simply by helping myself and thus relieving the burden on my mother. Like my father, under the table jobs have always been my longest term positions. Also like my father I go without benefits. I have no healthcare, no dental, no nothing.

I&#39;ve worked 40+ hours a week doing nightshift while attending college. Thankfully for me I&#39;ve never had a problem keeping grades up. I&#39;ve always known how to "play the system" so to speak when it comes to school.

So if you want to know why I&#39;m a communist, you need only to know that I&#39;ve read Marx, and I believe there is truth to what he says. If you want to know why I&#39;m not supportive of capitalism (classical or neo) it is because I&#39;ve had the experiences I&#39;ve had.

Like I said, I do not even compare to a majority of the working class, I can only imagine how much worse it is for those who were not at the least given the luck of my family in the past. The luck that I&#39;ve never had a need for health coverage except when I was covered as a minor. The luck that my mom could work so hard to get such coverage without exhausting herself into extinction. The luck that my father, despite losing so many jobs could always pick up another one at just the righ time. The luck that I had an aunt who was willing to take my brother and I in as if we were her own two children. You may not see these as luck if you weren&#39;t born into the lower class. You may see them as obvious grants of family and friends, but to those who are far worse, who&#39;s family and friends are in the same position as them, they do not have such luck.

[Freidenker]

Gent I know exactly where you&#39;re coming from. I had to play at my grandparents because my mother and father worked all the time. Much later we moved to NJ and my dad made more money but we were still very much in debt. We were lower middle class at that point. My parents often argued and there was a lot of stress due to financial instability. My father worked hard to get us to where we are now. Part of the middle class.

My comming to communism was similar. I did a political study for a summer one year and upon reading Marx, I found what I thought was right. I&#39;m a communist because I read and agree with Marx. Anti-capitalist because of experience throughout my life. Retrospecting, I can remember in 8th Grade I said "I wish medical stuff and food and everything could be free and provided by the government." and my teachers response was, "Well, you&#39;d be a communist then."

I had no idea what it was at that time and put it out of my head until I read Marx.

[t_wolves_fan]

Originally posted by [email protected] 3 2005, 02:47 AM
I used to buy the lies of all that capitalist bullshit, but i don&#39;t beleive it anymore. im 17 and when i am old and retired i will not recieve social sercurity&#33; how fucked up is that? im paying for the generation before me, and then i don&#39;t get the same in return. thats the system for you. you give and you get nothing back. all the money we give the the united states govt that they spend on fucking stupid bullshit. at least 5 billion dollars are being spent on the war in Iraq...every month&#33; It sucks that all that money could be put to some good use, for the cure of AIDS, or Cancer.
:D

Another 17 year-old who is going to change the world.

In 20 years you&#39;ll have 2 kids and a mortgage and be *****ing about taxes just like everyone else.

:lol:

[t_wolves_fan]

Much of my childhood was spent waiting in lines for food stamps or to ensure we qualified for food stamps. Eventually we stopped qualifying for foodstamps because my parents had a combined income that was over the accepted range for those in need of help.

It seems almost strange to look back now, becaue we have gotten out of that level of lower class that we were in. But to all those who see this as justification for the system, to those that think my story is proof of it&#39;s "fairness." I see nothing fair about two parents at work, one who works over 80 hours a week, the other working over 40.


My childhood was the same as yours and my parents are now in the upper-middle class. I see it as the perfect justification for capitalism.

[t_wolves_fan]

:lol: it is more then obvious you are not poor. would you like to live with 15 people in a 2 bedroom, 1 bathroom apartment.

I was poor; and yes I&#39;d rather live with 15 people in a 2 BR, 1 BR apartment than be dependent upon society for my wellbeing.


I talked about this sharing rent sitation. So people who can not afford new shoes must get used shoes. why cant the government give them new shoes why must the settle for second best?

Because there are not enough resources on the planet to give every single person a new pair of shoes who wants one, plus a brand-new one or two of everything else that everyone wants or needs.

It&#39;s no different than recycling a can or bottle.

[RevolutionaryLeftist]

well it doesn&#39;t seem like you&#39;re doing any good.

[(R)evolution of the mind]

Originally posted by [email protected] 3 2005, 03:20 PM
In 20 years you&#39;ll have 2 kids and a mortgage and be *****ing about taxes just like everyone else.

More likely living in a dumpster on scraps because there&#39;s no social security and the few remaining jobs have been moved to some currently third world country... until the day comes it is time to move them back to the part of the world that is then the thirld world.

[RedAnarchist]

I dont really have one. I sort of progressed as i learnt more about politics and the world as a whole. I became political when i was about 12, when i was moderate right-wing and slightly conservative Anglican. By the time i was 15, as i had learnt more about stuff i became much more of a liberal Anglican and moved towards the centre-right, but by the age of 16 i had disposed of Anglican beliefs and was experimenting with religiosn such as Buddhism, Bahai&#39;ism, Paganism etc, and my politics were centrist. Then i dropped religion all together and became a liberal. I felt that as i was becoming more adult that my politics could have been more certain and more polarized, so i became a Socialist. Now i&#39;m almost Anarchist, although i would call myself an Anarcho-Communist.

[encephalon]

Because there are not enough resources on the planet to give every single person a new pair of shoes who wants one, plus a brand-new one or two of everything else that everyone wants or needs.

It&#39;s no different than recycling a can or bottle.


There is in fact an overabundance of resources to provide for humanity as a whole.

[t_wolves_fan]

Originally posted by [email protected] 3 2005, 04:46 PM


Because there are not enough resources on the planet to give every single person a new pair of shoes who wants one, plus a brand-new one or two of everything else that everyone wants or needs.

It&#39;s no different than recycling a can or bottle.


There is in fact an overabundance of resources to provide for humanity as a whole.
Actually there isn&#39;t. (http://home1.stofanet.dk/agerley/)

Not enough for everyone to consume at Americans&#39; levels of consumption, and not enough to support a global community of 6 billion people where everything was free.

:unsure:

[t_wolves_fan]

Originally posted by (R)evolution of the mind+Feb 3 2005, 12:46 PM--> ((R)evolution of the mind @ Feb 3 2005, 12:46 PM)
[email protected] 3 2005, 03:20 PM
In 20 years you&#39;ll have 2 kids and a mortgage and be *****ing about taxes just like everyone else.

More likely living in a dumpster on scraps because there&#39;s no social security and the few remaining jobs have been moved to some currently third world country... until the day comes it is time to move them back to the part of the world that is then the thirld world. [/b]
That&#39;s the funny part, people like you sit around *****ing about how there&#39;s no opportunity, while those who take advantage of their talents and th opportunities given them will pass you by.

It reminds me of the story of an old woman who is on the roof during a flood. The water is rising and a man in a 4X4 drives up. He offers to take the woman to safety. She declines and says "God will save me."

A little later and little higher water level, and man floats by in a boat and offers to rescue her. "No," says the woman, "God will save me."

Lastly a helicopter flies by and a man throws down a rope and offers to rescue her. "No," the woman says, "God will save me."

So the water rises and sweeps her away and kills her. After getting into Heaven, the woman gets to talk to God.

"God," she says, "I was sure you would save me&#33; What happened?"

God replies, "I sent three people for you&#33;"



You and your ilk are that woman, and the three people who offered to rescue her are opportunities for a better life.

[(R)evolution of the mind]

Originally posted by t_wolves_fan+Feb 3 2005, 07:57 PM--> (t_wolves_fan &#064; Feb 3 2005, 07:57 PM)
Originally posted by ®evolution of the [email protected] 3 2005, 12:46 PM

[email protected] 3 2005, 03:20 PM
In 20 years you&#39;ll have 2 kids and a mortgage and be *****ing about taxes just like everyone else.

More likely living in a dumpster on scraps because there&#39;s no social security and the few remaining jobs have been moved to some currently third world country... until the day comes it is time to move them back to the part of the world that is then the thirld world.
That&#39;s the funny part, people like you sit around *****ing about how there&#39;s no opportunity, while those who take advantage of their talents and th opportunities given them will pass you by.
[/b]
There simply aren&#39;t jobs for everyone in a capitalist world with 8 hour working days. The capitalists want to have a reserve workforce in form of poor unemployed people to control the rest ("every job is better than unemployment") and while even within this extortion model the amount of unemployed people could be reduced from the current numbers, it also doesn&#39;t suit them to employ more people for less hours, as would be done in a saner society. And those of us who aren&#39;t willing to or good enough at kissing bosses&#39; asses -- that&#39;s all the talent that is really required in the deskilled capitalist workplace -- are left with nothing else to do but ***** about it.

[BeginnerRevolutionary]

For me, it was when President Bush passed his "tax cut" that supposedly helped out the lower class more than anything, and in the end the rich ended up with the biggest break.
Also....
The fact that vast amounts money in circulation belong to a very small percentage of people.

The fact that movie stars can earn &#036;15 million for one production.

The fact that money talks, and that even law can be pushed aside for the right price.

Many factors led to my disbelief in capitalism and more towards to people. No real defining moment though....Just events over time.

[t_wolves_fan]

Originally posted by &reg;evolution of the mind+Feb 3 2005, 05:16 PM--> (&reg;evolution of the mind &#064; Feb 3 2005, 05:16 PM)
Originally posted by [email protected] 3 2005, 07:57 PM

Originally posted by ®evolution of the [email protected] 3 2005, 12:46 PM

[email protected] 3 2005, 03:20 PM
In 20 years you&#39;ll have 2 kids and a mortgage and be *****ing about taxes just like everyone else.

More likely living in a dumpster on scraps because there&#39;s no social security and the few remaining jobs have been moved to some currently third world country... until the day comes it is time to move them back to the part of the world that is then the thirld world.
That&#39;s the funny part, people like you sit around *****ing about how there&#39;s no opportunity, while those who take advantage of their talents and th opportunities given them will pass you by.

There simply aren&#39;t jobs for everyone in a capitalist world with 8 hour working days. The capitalists want to have a reserve workforce in form of poor unemployed people to control the rest ("every job is better than unemployment") and while even within this extortion model the amount of unemployed people could be reduced from the current numbers, it also doesn&#39;t suit them to employ more people for less hours, as would be done in a saner society. And those of us who aren&#39;t willing to or good enough at kissing bosses&#39; asses -- that&#39;s all the talent that is really required in the deskilled capitalist workplace -- are left with nothing else to do but ***** about it. [/b]
Not really true at all.

If someone doesn&#39;t have a job, they don&#39;t consume, and therefore the capitalist does not sell that person any goods.

Look at the late 1990s. We were at full-employment then. Workers were in high demand and wages were high.

Assuming what you say to be true (which it isn&#39;t), corporations would have either fired employees to extort lower wages from those that remained or offshored as many jobs as possible. Neither really happened.

Offshoring of jobs is extremely overblown. However, even when jobs are offshored, as politically incorrect as it was for a Bush administration official to admit it, it is good for the economy. The nation to which the jobs were offshored benefits because otherwise many of those people would be subsistence rice farmers who would die at age 32. The nation from which the jobs came benefits because prices go down. That is why car companies for instance were able to offer 0% interest rates on cars. Further, because technology is always improving in the nations from which the offshored jobs came, new jobs are created and everyone moves up the ladder.

Well, except for those who sit around and *****. But I digress.

And actually, due to our overtime laws, it does in fact suit companies to employ more workers for fewer hours. That is because an employee making overtime costs more than another employee who doesn&#39;t, in general. The only problem is health benefits, which our arcane system attaches to employment. If we went to a system where it were universal (which I might accept, depending) or individuals purchased it like they do car insurance (a novel concept very much worth looking at), our economy would be even more unencumbered to create jobs.


Tell me, is your resistance to capitalism based solely on your desire to not have to answer to anyone?

[Wilden]

it first came to me to when i was 14. i was doing some general research and found that every single group of people that has tried to turn the world into a better place through means of equality have been persecuted throughout history.
700 years ago, if you believed that everyone was equal an there should be no rich and no poor u would be burnt at the stake.
napoleon bonaparte was a man who installed a system of personal advancement where you could get power on your personal merits and skills, not on your birth-right or wealth. for this his empire was destroyed by countries in which a monarchy reigned.

[rightsaidtom]

Mine would have to be when I met a woman whose entire immediate family was murdered when Che and Castro first rolled through Cuba because they had worked hard and become wealthy. She was Imprisoned by the commies but escaped to Canada and then the United States of America. Thank God.

[redstar2000]

Originally posted by [email protected] 3 2005, 12:53 PM
Mine would have to be when I met a woman whose entire immediate family was murdered when Che and Castro first rolled through Cuba because they had worked hard and become wealthy. She was Imprisoned by the commies but escaped to Canada and then the United States of America. Thank God.
Take careful note of this post, comrades.

Because Fidel and Che showed mercy to this woman, she came to the U.S. and infected rightsaidtom with her poisonous ideology.

Showing mercy to the class enemy will always come back to bite us in the ass.

Be warned.

:lol:

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/123.gif

[Commie Girl]

Originally posted by [email protected] 3 2005, 11:53 AM
Mine would have to be when I met a woman whose entire immediate family was murdered when Che and Castro first rolled through Cuba because they had worked hard and become wealthy. She was Imprisoned by the commies but escaped to Canada and then the United States of America. Thank God.
That is a very simplistic argument, "they were murdered because they worked hard and became wealthy" F*ck&#39;em :ph34r: I wonder if it was maybe that they treated others poorly, got wealthy on the backs of others, living in luxury while their fellow countrymen were wallowing in poverty, illiteracy, etc.

[Sirion]

There is no such thing as becoming wealthy on your own. In a capitalist wealth, wealth is built on the backs of the proletariat

[rightsaidtom]

Originally posted by Commie Girl+Feb 3 2005, 06:35 PM--> (Commie Girl @ Feb 3 2005, 06:35 PM)
[email protected] 3 2005, 11:53 AM
Mine would have to be when I met a woman whose entire immediate family was murdered when Che and Castro first rolled through Cuba because they had worked hard and become wealthy. She was Imprisoned by the commies but escaped to Canada and then the United States of America. Thank God.
That is a very simplistic argument, "they were murdered because they worked hard and became wealthy" F*ck&#39;em :ph34r: I wonder if it was maybe that they treated others poorly, got wealthy on the backs of others, living in luxury while their fellow countrymen were wallowing in poverty, illiteracy, etc. [/b]
:rolleyes:

[(R)evolution of the mind]

If someone doesn&#39;t have a job, they don&#39;t consume, and therefore the capitalist does not sell that person any goods.

And that&#39;s where imperialism comes to the rescue. If the people in your own country can&#39;t afford the goods, go bomb and occupy a few third world countries and force them to buy your shit. As a side benefit you get more cheap labour.


Assuming what you say to be true (which it isn&#39;t), corporations would have either fired employees to extort lower wages from those that remained or offshored as many jobs as possible. Neither really happened.

Offshoring and lay-offs are happening all the time. Note: I don&#39;t live in the U&#036;.


The nation from which the jobs came benefits because prices go down.

And that only affects those who still have a job.


And actually, due to our overtime laws, it does in fact suit companies to employ more workers for fewer hours. That is because an employee making overtime costs more than another employee who doesn&#39;t, in general.

Overtime laws don&#39;t mean a shit when there are no jobs and you can be fired for not working hard enough. Especially in an industry with "sliding hours" you simply never get the chance to catch up with the lost freetime.


The only problem is health benefits, which our arcane system attaches to employment. If we went to a system where it were universal (which I might accept, depending) or individuals purchased it like they do car insurance (a novel concept very much worth looking at), our economy would be even more unencumbered to create jobs.

Plasebo. This just changes who pays for the health benefits, and to keep the current real income levels wages would have to be bigger -- by the amount of the health costs.


Tell me, is your resistance to capitalism based solely on your desire to not have to answer to anyone?

My most immediate reason for opposing capitalism is the authoritarian environment of capitalist workplaces.

I&#39;ve gotta go now...

[encephalon]

Not really true at all.

If someone doesn&#39;t have a job, they don&#39;t consume, and therefore the capitalist does not sell that person any goods.


FALSE. If they are to stay alive, they do indeed consume.



Look at the late 1990s. We were at full-employment then. Workers were in high demand and wages were high.


In direct correlation with the huge corparate downsizing of the 1980s. Corporations needed to increase their workforce regardless of wages. They had no alternative.



Assuming what you say to be true (which it isn&#39;t), corporations would have either fired employees to extort lower wages from those that remained or offshored as many jobs as possible. Neither really happened.


FALSE. Wages did decrease relative to inflation, and continue to do so. The "uproar" over offshoring is the echo of offsoring policies that dominated the scene in the late nineties, and culminates today.



Offshoring of jobs is extremely overblown. However, even when jobs are offshored, as politically incorrect as it was for a Bush administration official to admit it, it is good for the economy. The nation to which the jobs were offshored benefits because otherwise many of those people would be subsistence rice farmers who would die at age 32. The nation from which the jobs came benefits because prices go down. That is why car companies for instance were able to offer 0% interest rates on cars. Further, because technology is always improving in the nations from which the offshored jobs came, new jobs are created and everyone moves up the ladder.

Well, except for those who sit around and *****. But I digress.


FALSE. Offshoring creates a temporary decrease in price, but a permanent decrease in personal income for the working class of said nation. It brings new technology to third-world countries in the same way that british rule of india brought new technology to the area: for exploitative purposes alone. Putting a pretty face on imperialism, whether by nation or corporation, does little to change its nature.

That said, Socialism cannot be established until capitalism is globally entrenched, and the working class of imperialist nations are treated on par with that of the rest of the world. Marx predicted the current phase of capitalism.



And actually, due to our overtime laws, it does in fact suit companies to employ more workers for fewer hours. That is because an employee making overtime costs more than another employee who doesn&#39;t, in general. The only problem is health benefits, which our arcane system attaches to employment. If we went to a system where it were universal (which I might accept, depending) or individuals purchased it like they do car insurance (a novel concept very much worth looking at), our economy would be even more unencumbered to create jobs.


Our arcane system does not require a company to offer health insurance for full-time employees, and many workers have no healthcare, nor can they afford a plan. Also, the labor laws have been dramatically changed since the Bush administration, allowing companies to opt out of providing overtime pay for those making less than 40k/year (though it has yet to be enacted in a widespread fashion). Decreasing hours/week in which an employee works increases production and therefore profit, regardless of pay.



Tell me, is your resistance to capitalism based solely on your desire to not have to answer to anyone?


My emotional resistance to capitalism lies the fact that it is founded upon exploitative principles, and inhumane. My case intellectually is founded upon the instability of capitalism and it&#39;s inability to function without constant and exponentially increasing expansion.

[(R)evolution of the mind]

Originally posted by (R)evolution of the [email protected] 3 2005, 10:07 PM

Tell me, is your resistance to capitalism based solely on your desire to not have to answer to anyone?

My most immediate reason for opposing capitalism is the authoritarian environment of capitalist workplaces.

I&#39;ve gotta go now...

.. continued.

The only way to dismandle the authoritarianism of workplaces is to have everyone on such an economic footing that they can say "I don&#39;t have to work here" without fear of poverty. A reformist answer would be the so-called "citizen wage", but because the government is ultimately controlled by the wealthy, it doesn&#39;t really have a chance of succeeding except as a cosmetic change to meager unemployment benefits. Succeeding, we would be halfway to dismandling capitalism anyway. Even if one could in theory form cooperative workplaces within capitalism, there are various problems to it: investors can have demands on the organisation, finding new members with fitting beliefs given growth, entering an already monopolistic market, and so on. So, the real answer is abolition of from which the authoritarianism stems: private property.

Starting your own business is also not a real option to wage slavery because of the same reasons mentioned for forming co-ops under capitalism above, and essentially you would be selling yourself (and the company) to a financial capitalist instead of industrial capitalist anyway.

Other problems I have with capitalism are of course how it exploits both people and the nature, and the fact that large numbers of people are condemned to poverty, and all of the working class can face it thanks to the "do everything I (the boss) tell you, or.." nature of workplaces. And just not to get side-tracked here, I don&#39;t have a big problem with there being people with much "personal property" (a big house, many cars, a little more money than most people), but I do have a problem with owners of lots of "private property", i.e. property that can be used to exploit others (factories, huge farms that require wage labour, other workplaces, apartments for rent, enermous amounts of money, etc.).

[EneME]

Originally posted by EneME+Feb 3 2005, 02:21 AM--> (EneME @ Feb 3 2005, 02:21 AM)
[email protected] 1 2005, 05:03 PM
What event or time in your life was the defining moment, when you decided you all were opposed to capitalism and, in general, the United States?
uh a whole series of events....

-the U&#036; backing of a supposed "democratic" government in my country, that was actually massacring people....(LOTS of trauma)

-my mother worked in a sweatshop for 15 years, and I still have family that do...one for Tommy Hilfiger I might add..

-grew up poor in the inner city, U&#036;A....no health care ever, poor public schooling, witness to lots of poverty and hopelessness etc.

-been to third world countries and have seen supposed "progress" or "development" with my own eyes with huge malls and freeways, while you watch little 4 year olds sitting in the rain under a tarp while their mother sells newspapers on the side of the street and his older 6 year old sister sells candy in between the lanes of a downtown six lane road.

but..THATS all...no biggy&#33; [/b]
Isn&#39;t it funny that the cappies COMPLETELY IGNORE perfectly VALID responses that show how UNJUST capitalism is? I guess that is how they exist..."lets just have SELECTIVE MEMORY of the things that are true, unjust, and cruel by the hands of capitalism...and maybe everyone else will forget because HEY they&#39;re just third world people, they don&#39;t matter...."

[Non-Sectarian Bastard!]

On top of that quite some of them are Christian too :lol:

[NovelGentry]

My childhood was the same as yours and my parents are now in the upper-middle class. I see it as the perfect justification for capitalism.

Yeah, 120+ combined hours a week of labor for two parents with two children. That&#39;s justified. If you consider this an example of the "equal opportunity" I would only ask you look up the definition of equal. The opportunity exists, and once again, for those lucky few who have family and friends such as I. I&#39;m not sure where there&#39;s anything equal about it.

[encephalon]

this has been discussed in multitude. Search the forum.

[progressive thinker]

Originally posted by [email protected] 3 2005, 11:06 PM

My childhood was the same as yours and my parents are now in the upper-middle class. I see it as the perfect justification for capitalism.

Yeah, 120+ combined hours a week of labor for two parents with two children. That&#39;s justified. If you consider this an example of the "equal opportunity" I would only ask you look up the definition of equal. The opportunity exists, and once again, for those lucky few who have family and friends such as I. I&#39;m not sure where there&#39;s anything equal about it.
When one of the Mechanical Engineering professors said "This is how great this country is, the son of a blue collar worker can end up with a PhD from Princeton".

[NovelGentry]

When one of the Mechanical Engineering professors said "This is how great this country is, the son of a blue collar worker can end up with a PhD from Princeton".

Sucks for the no-collar worker though.

[comrade_mufasa]

Originally posted by progressive thinker+Feb 3 2005, 09:38 PM--> (progressive thinker &#064; Feb 3 2005, 09:38 PM)
[email protected] 3 2005, 11:06 PM

My childhood was the same as yours and my parents are now in the upper-middle class. I see it as the perfect justification for capitalism.

Yeah, 120+ combined hours a week of labor for two parents with two children. That&#39;s justified. If you consider this an example of the "equal opportunity" I would only ask you look up the definition of equal. The opportunity exists, and once again, for those lucky few who have family and friends such as I. I&#39;m not sure where there&#39;s anything equal about it.
When one of the Mechanical Engineering professors said "This is how great this country is, the son of a blue collar worker can end up with a PhD from Princeton". [/b]
That is very true, but I bet you anything that it was hard as hell for that son to get the PhD. While there is some son of a rich CEO who had only to have coffee with the dean of Princeton so he could take the Mechanical Engineering class. That is not equal opportunity :angry:

[progressive thinker]

But if that son of a rich CEO didn&#39;t learn to work sometime in life he might not have an easy path either :) (Other people will come along and knock him/her back down the ladder).

I agree that having life handed to you on a platter is a little ridiculous, but the essence behind capitalism allows for other people to make their own climbing up the ladder.

And I don&#39;t know too many rich people in my degree program, but I do go to an "affordable" college.

[comrade_mufasa]

But if that son of a rich CEO didn&#39;t learn to work sometime in life he might not have an easy path either :) (Other people will come along and knock him/her back down the ladder).
But the point is that he didnt have to work as hard to get to the same point as the other guy.


And I don&#39;t know too many rich people in my degree program, but I do go to an "affordable" college.
We are not talking about affordable colleges we are talking about Princeton, Yale, Harvord, and the like.

[EneME]

Originally posted by progressive thinker+Feb 4 2005, 02:38 AM--> (progressive thinker @ Feb 4 2005, 02:38 AM)
[email protected] 3 2005, 11:06 PM

My childhood was the same as yours and my parents are now in the upper-middle class. I see it as the perfect justification for capitalism.

Yeah, 120+ combined hours a week of labor for two parents with two children. That&#39;s justified. If you consider this an example of the "equal opportunity" I would only ask you look up the definition of equal. The opportunity exists, and once again, for those lucky few who have family and friends such as I. I&#39;m not sure where there&#39;s anything equal about it.
When one of the Mechanical Engineering professors said "This is how great this country is, the son of a blue collar worker can end up with a PhD from Princeton". [/b]
True, but just HOW MANY actually do, can afford it, and make it through? A very very small percentage...most will end up just like their parents...maybe slightly better, but not by much...

[EneME]

Originally posted by [email protected] 3 2005, 05:53 PM
Mine would have to be when I met a woman whose entire immediate family was murdered when Che and Castro first rolled through Cuba because they had worked hard and become wealthy. She was Imprisoned by the commies but escaped to Canada and then the United States of America. Thank God.
Reminds me of this Cuban lady my grandmother worked FOR as a housekeeper. She hated Castro of course cuz he took one of her houses and the one she lived in they made into a duplex because it was so large. So, she actually had to *gasp* ASSOCIATE and live in close proximity to the LOWER class...gawd forbid...so she fled. Now, she&#39;s comfortably in the U&#036;A exploiting her own Latin-American people in her home....prolly feels like back home.. :angry:

[Zingu]

but the essence behind capitalism allows for other people to make their own climbing up the ladder.

Tell that to the third world sweatshop workers.


I&#39;m pretty sure that the Economist magazine did a report showing that social mobility is going down steadily in the US, which is in direct contrast of what you just said.

[Axel1917]

Originally posted by [email protected] 1 2005, 09:04 PM
So you noticed that people were unequal.

Than you state that people are equal

If we were actually equal wouldn&#39;t we be equal now?



Equality is shit. You aren&#39;t equal to me and I&#39;m not equal to you.

We&#39;re different.
A simple note; There is no literal equality advocated by any Marxist; the equality depicted is based on people&#39;s needs; they are equal in that their needs are met and that they are living comfortably instead of from paycheck to paycheck.

Well, my history has changed a lot; I was a Stalinist beginning at age 14, as I realized that the US&#39;s promises of liberty and such were lies. I also realized that the US was really imperialist, and that my history textbooks were lying. I was Stalinist because I did not know of genuine Marxism, and that I was amazed at how quickly the USSR went from a backward peasant nation to a world power. After a bit of thinking, and reading what Lenin had to say about Stalin, I went toward a utopian socialism, as I did not know about scientific socialism, and I only knew that totalitarianism was not the way forward. I became as such perhaps at around age 15 or 16. I am not sure. At around age 17, I knew the difference between geunine communism and Stalinism, and I had an ultra-left outlook. At the age of 18, upon reading the first volume of Reason in Revolt: Dialectical Philosophy and Modern Science, by Alan Woods and Ted Grant, I looked into Dialectical Materialism and I learned how the masses really move, and I ended up at scientific socialism on a realistic, non-sectarian basis. I am currenly now 20 years old, and I continue to research and know more about Marxism.

[truthaddict11]

Originally posted by [email protected] 1 2005, 06:59 PM


Then recently, during 9/11, and finally watching how the world around me is crumbling, it clicked in me, and suddenly I became almost fanatical in politics, moving from centrism, to liberalism, and finally, after pursuing my curiosities and reading the Communist Manifesto, leftism. I have gravitated away from Leninism which originally inspired me to agnostic Marxism, but now, I am beginning to learn more about Council Communism. That is the short story.
so a terrorist attack that killed over 3000 people turned you to communism?

[truthaddict11]

Originally posted by (R)evolution of the [email protected] 3 2005, 08:27 AM

More likely living in a dumpster on scraps because there&#39;s no social security and the few remaining jobs have been moved to some currently third world country... until the day comes it is time to move them back to the part of the world that is then the thirld world.
let me get this straight, you are actually relying on social security to pay for you when you are older? :lol: thats why you must invest your money now to insure your future. My grandparents are in thier sixties and have money. why? because of saving not social security. dont rely on the government to help you. and if workers want to keep jobs in america they will have to realize that they are competing on a global scale, some benifits and pay will have to be lost in order to keep those jobs in america.

[truthaddict11]

Originally posted by [email protected] 6 2005, 08:54 AM

but the essence behind capitalism allows for other people to make their own climbing up the ladder.

Tell that to the third world sweatshop workers.

as opposed to leave these people starving with no income?

[truthaddict11]

Originally posted by [email protected] 3 2005, 11:28 PM
about Princeton, Yale, Harvord, and the like.
is that why when my brother graduates from YALE he will only have about 16,000 in debt? he is pretty much going for free and we are not a rich family. not by a long shot

[KC]

That&#39;s an obvious exception.

[truthaddict11]

no shit. Ivy League schools are affordable and the payoff is worth the tuition

[Ele'ill]

I was young not quite in my teens or approaching them and I realized what the large governments and current economies are doing to the environment. From that point on I gradually became involved in politics and such.

[tunes]

I opened A People&#39;s History of the United States, stumbled upon Columbus&#39; arrival at the Bahamas to find the natives:

"They... brought us parrots and balls of cotton and spears and many other things, which they exchanged for the glass beads and hawks&#39; bells. They willingly traded everything they owned.... They were well-built, with good bodies and handsome features.... They do not bear arms, and do not know them, for I showed them a sword, they took it by the edge and cut themselves out of ignorance. They have no iron. Their spears are made of cane.... They would make fine servants.... With fifty men we could subjugate them all and make them do whatever we want." -Columbus

It&#39;s been anti-exploitation ever since.

[Axel1917]

Originally posted by truthaddict11+Oct 7 2005, 08:44 PM--> (truthaddict11 @ Oct 7 2005, 08:44 PM)
[email protected] 1 2005, 06:59 PM


Then recently, during 9/11, and finally watching how the world around me is crumbling, it clicked in me, and suddenly I became almost fanatical in politics, moving from centrism, to liberalism, and finally, after pursuing my curiosities and reading the Communist Manifesto, leftism. I have gravitated away from Leninism which originally inspired me to agnostic Marxism, but now, I am beginning to learn more about Council Communism. That is the short story.
so a terrorist attack that killed over 3000 people turned you to communism? [/b]
That person probably meant that he/she had been aware of the crisis of capitalism in general, i.e. that one shock can send the whole thing into turmoil. The 9/11 attacks were horrible, and the whole system went into turmoil when they happened. The system we live under is not secure, and it cannot even promise the people of the world the basic means of survival (just look at the Third World).

[truthaddict11]

Originally posted by [email protected] 10 2005, 11:47 AM

That person probably meant that he/she had been aware of the crisis of capitalism in general, i.e. that one shock can send the whole thing into turmoil. The 9/11 attacks were horrible, and the whole system went into turmoil when they happened. The system we live under is not secure, and it cannot even promise the people of the world the basic means of survival (just look at the Third World).
and yout agrument is that under communism this crisis that followed 9/11 wouldnt have happended? explain

[Axel1917]

Originally posted by truthaddict11+Oct 10 2005, 05:39 PM--> (truthaddict11 &#064; Oct 10 2005, 05:39 PM)
[email protected] 10 2005, 11:47 AM

That person probably meant that he/she had been aware of the crisis of capitalism in general, i.e. that one shock can send the whole thing into turmoil. The 9/11 attacks were horrible, and the whole system went into turmoil when they happened. The system we live under is not secure, and it cannot even promise the people of the world the basic means of survival (just look at the Third World).
and yout agrument is that under communism this crisis that followed 9/11 wouldnt have happended? explain [/b]
It would not have happened due to the superiority of a democratically planned economy. Even the horribly deformed and Totalitarian planned economy of the USSR proved the superiority of planned economies with its rapid growth and rather quick recovery after WWII (they were far worse off than the US, given that the Nazis had destroyed so much on their soil. Stalin&#39;s purging of the good generals did not help anything either). A lot of the growth in even such a flawed and deformed planned system happened during the same time of stagnation in the capitalist world.

Not to mention that it was a bad idea for the US to support reactionary Islamic extremists in the Soviet-Afghan war. Mixing politics with religious exremism is a bad idea. That probably played a major role in Bin Laden&#39;s rise to power.

[colonelguppy]

for me, my idealogy started out as pre-teen agnst about police office. i turned into anti-authoratarianism

then i learned what rights were all about, and it turned into liberartianism

[colombiano]

Seeing with MY OWN EYES how my people have suffered and continue to suffer at the hands of the Hypocritical Terrorist and Plutocratic State in my country. Also one must reconize that deep resentment is also due in great part to the constant meddling tentacles of the Green Octopus( USA). :angry:

[Hegemonicretribution]

At the onset of puberty and teenage years I became slightly more disillusioned with the prescribed bullshit on television and the hegemony certain corparations had achieved. I was actually on a survival weekend without drink or drugs, and I just thought fuck it. All the rage songs we played in the band and the hippy lifestyle I had been accustomed to didn&#39;t mean shit, I through all the cans of Coca-Cola in the fire (before setting fire to our shelter for the night) and never drank it since.

I started researching then after finding out how far reaching coca-cola was and began a complete boycott of them that then moved through other companies, pretty much all tyhe major ones.

Boycotts turned to civil disobedience as I started getting more political and started looking at route causes. I just tried to live my life ethically and did what I could initially within fair trade movements to improve the lives of others and raise awareness.

Then I read Marx, as well as lots of literature on right wing economics. This is where I suppose I formed my actual oppinions. I was a rebel without a cause, a rebel with a cause and no focus, and eventually an individual with focus.

Sorry for the life story, I got carried away.

[Jimmie Higgins]

Originally posted by [email protected] 7 2005, 11:31 PM
no shit. Ivy League schools are affordable and the payoff is worth the tuition
Affordable for who? I went to a UC, didn&#39;t have to pay out of state tuition, got scholarships and loans and haven&#39;t been out of debt since.

How much is the tuition alone for a name-brand ivy-league?

[Jimmie Higgins]

As far as politics, I don&#39;t think there is one particular defining moment, just a series of things: my Dad being laid-off from his job because his company was bought-out by another company, being arrested by the LAPD, having friends of mine arrested by the LAPD, being attacked by cops at the DNC in 2000, reading Marx, seeing the revolts against neoliberalism from Seattle to Latin America unfold on TV and in the papers, seeing the 9-11 attacks on TV, the wars, the opposition to the wars, Katrina, the prison system, basically every-day life.

[Capitalist Lawyer]

his father is in jail for selling crack becouse he needed to pay his bills

Why was the mother married to this crackhead in the first place, let alone have a child with him?

Moral of the story: Don&#39;t have kids with a crackhead.

[poster_child]

I remember asking my parents why socialism was bad when I was about 10. All I knew about it was that "everyone was equal". That sounded pretty good to me.

My parents told me to never ask that question again. I pondered it for the next 4 years, until highschool history class. My school was pretty good, and not very biased about the ideaology.

I was borderline until I heard the song "911 for peace" by anti-flag when I was 14. That was 4 years ago, and still the same from that very moment.

[patrickbeverley]

Originally posted by [email protected] 1 2005, 11:20 PM
Equal oppurtunity does not gurantee equal outcomes.
Yes, but unequal opportunity absolutely guarantees unequal outcomes.

[patrickbeverley]

Originally posted by Capitalist [email protected] 21 2005, 03:12 AM

his father is in jail for selling crack becouse he needed to pay his bills

Why was the mother married to this crackhead in the first place, let alone have a child with him?

Moral of the story: Don&#39;t have kids with a crackhead.
No no no. He sold crack to pay his bills because he had no money. That doesn&#39;t make him a crackhead. A crackhead would have no money because he takes crack.

[dakewlguy]

A rather biased sociology lecturer, who talked up Marxism and talked down everything else. Luckily I had a different lecturer the next year.