The Garbage Disposal Unit
1st February 2005, 03:37
"Amusing Foibles" and I were having an interesting conversation, that I figured might be a good way to kick off some arguin'. It actually sprung out of discussion of an argument between myself and an existentialist on the relationship between the individual and greater social-ideological circumstances.
Enjoy:
I wish I was the illegitimate child of Voltairine de Cleyre and Debbie Harry. says:
What the hell is up with the focus on Schizoids? I think if you talked to any of them, or anyone who is (seriously, not ADD) "mentally ill", they would hardly consider themselves "free" or as somehow "more human"... if, as is implied by Lea (I'm assuming this is Lea), real humanity is only exemplified in those who are unable to take part in "society", than what is humanity? Is humanity isolation?
I wish I was the illegitimate child of Voltairine de Cleyre and Debbie Harry. says:
Can we only be "us" when perfectly alone? Wouldn't it make more sense to discuss humanity in realtion to other humans, within society? Otherwise true humanity is impossible.
I wish I was the illegitimate child of Voltairine de Cleyre and Debbie Harry. says:
(I'm rambling now)
I wish I was the illegitimate child of Voltairine de Cleyre and Debbie Harry. says:
It is all well and good to define oneself by the other, but in doing so you isolate yourself and prevent real communication, etc. with that which you have deemed the "other"
I wish I was the illegitimate child of Voltairine de Cleyre and Debbie Harry. says:
It is inherently negative
I wish I was the illegitimate child of Voltairine de Cleyre and Debbie Harry. says:
Also, as soon as the other is revealed to be no different from the self your personality collapses and creates a crisis
I wish I was the illegitimate child of Voltairine de Cleyre and Debbie Harry. says:
One must either completly re-examine the nature of ones self, or be constantly finding newer and more exotic "others".
I wish I was the illegitimate child of Voltairine de Cleyre and Debbie Harry. says:
I think I'm done now
Going to Class Against The Machine says:
(Both of you simultantiously sent messages using the word "inherently". Weird)
(Deleted and restarted a few time) I agree completely. I think LEa has exagerated, and built up the schitzophrenic for their otherness from society at large . . . but in clinging to the other, one inevitably is attempting to sustain an illusion, which (I hope) will inevitably collapse into crisis. On a larger level - a
Going to Class Against The Machine says:
"revolutionary situation".
I wish I was the illegitimate child of Voltairine de Cleyre and Debbie Harry. says:
agree'd
I wish I was the illegitimate child of Voltairine de Cleyre and Debbie Harry. says:
(Read "the second sex", anyway. It has a lot to say about others.)
I wish I was the illegitimate child of Voltairine de Cleyre and Debbie Harry. says:
But does capitalist society build itself upon the other?
Going to Class Against The Machine says:
There are multiple contridictions within capitalist society - the obvious internal contridictions (As relate to the nature of the way value is produced, and relationships to production, old-school-Marx-stylee) and the various ideological "others" that pop up in opposition to various functions and manifestations of internal contridictions. e.g. Capitalism, internally, demands imperialism, so
Going to Class Against The Machine says:
external ideological creations "terrorism" etc. appear.
I wish I was the illegitimate child of Voltairine de Cleyre and Debbie Harry. says:
But do you think that they are integral enough to cause the collapse of capitalism as a whole in the event of a otherness crisis?
Going to Class Against The Machine says:
The external contridictions? No - of course not. Since they spring from the inherent, internal contridictions, more will inevitably spring up to replace them (Though some advantage is, no doubt, gained in smashing them none the less). However, until the innate oppositions in class society are addressed, terrorists and bogeymen will continue to pop up.
I wish I was the illegitimate child of Voltairine de Cleyre and Debbie Harry. says:
Yeah, that's what I thought, you just seemed more "the crisis will topple" in the above, and I got confused.
There will be no crisis until the other is no longer feasable.
Going to Class Against The Machine says:
Exactly!
Mind you, they're inter-realted. The more we expose the creation of the blah-blah-blah, the more the nature of the blahdy becomes apperent, and the closer we come to creating the internal toppling crisis (Though, to some degree, I think timing has a lot to do with it, haha.)
I wish I was the illegitimate child of Voltairine de Cleyre and Debbie Harry. says:
I like the idea of *****ing-as-revolutionary
Enjoy:
I wish I was the illegitimate child of Voltairine de Cleyre and Debbie Harry. says:
What the hell is up with the focus on Schizoids? I think if you talked to any of them, or anyone who is (seriously, not ADD) "mentally ill", they would hardly consider themselves "free" or as somehow "more human"... if, as is implied by Lea (I'm assuming this is Lea), real humanity is only exemplified in those who are unable to take part in "society", than what is humanity? Is humanity isolation?
I wish I was the illegitimate child of Voltairine de Cleyre and Debbie Harry. says:
Can we only be "us" when perfectly alone? Wouldn't it make more sense to discuss humanity in realtion to other humans, within society? Otherwise true humanity is impossible.
I wish I was the illegitimate child of Voltairine de Cleyre and Debbie Harry. says:
(I'm rambling now)
I wish I was the illegitimate child of Voltairine de Cleyre and Debbie Harry. says:
It is all well and good to define oneself by the other, but in doing so you isolate yourself and prevent real communication, etc. with that which you have deemed the "other"
I wish I was the illegitimate child of Voltairine de Cleyre and Debbie Harry. says:
It is inherently negative
I wish I was the illegitimate child of Voltairine de Cleyre and Debbie Harry. says:
Also, as soon as the other is revealed to be no different from the self your personality collapses and creates a crisis
I wish I was the illegitimate child of Voltairine de Cleyre and Debbie Harry. says:
One must either completly re-examine the nature of ones self, or be constantly finding newer and more exotic "others".
I wish I was the illegitimate child of Voltairine de Cleyre and Debbie Harry. says:
I think I'm done now
Going to Class Against The Machine says:
(Both of you simultantiously sent messages using the word "inherently". Weird)
(Deleted and restarted a few time) I agree completely. I think LEa has exagerated, and built up the schitzophrenic for their otherness from society at large . . . but in clinging to the other, one inevitably is attempting to sustain an illusion, which (I hope) will inevitably collapse into crisis. On a larger level - a
Going to Class Against The Machine says:
"revolutionary situation".
I wish I was the illegitimate child of Voltairine de Cleyre and Debbie Harry. says:
agree'd
I wish I was the illegitimate child of Voltairine de Cleyre and Debbie Harry. says:
(Read "the second sex", anyway. It has a lot to say about others.)
I wish I was the illegitimate child of Voltairine de Cleyre and Debbie Harry. says:
But does capitalist society build itself upon the other?
Going to Class Against The Machine says:
There are multiple contridictions within capitalist society - the obvious internal contridictions (As relate to the nature of the way value is produced, and relationships to production, old-school-Marx-stylee) and the various ideological "others" that pop up in opposition to various functions and manifestations of internal contridictions. e.g. Capitalism, internally, demands imperialism, so
Going to Class Against The Machine says:
external ideological creations "terrorism" etc. appear.
I wish I was the illegitimate child of Voltairine de Cleyre and Debbie Harry. says:
But do you think that they are integral enough to cause the collapse of capitalism as a whole in the event of a otherness crisis?
Going to Class Against The Machine says:
The external contridictions? No - of course not. Since they spring from the inherent, internal contridictions, more will inevitably spring up to replace them (Though some advantage is, no doubt, gained in smashing them none the less). However, until the innate oppositions in class society are addressed, terrorists and bogeymen will continue to pop up.
I wish I was the illegitimate child of Voltairine de Cleyre and Debbie Harry. says:
Yeah, that's what I thought, you just seemed more "the crisis will topple" in the above, and I got confused.
There will be no crisis until the other is no longer feasable.
Going to Class Against The Machine says:
Exactly!
Mind you, they're inter-realted. The more we expose the creation of the blah-blah-blah, the more the nature of the blahdy becomes apperent, and the closer we come to creating the internal toppling crisis (Though, to some degree, I think timing has a lot to do with it, haha.)
I wish I was the illegitimate child of Voltairine de Cleyre and Debbie Harry. says:
I like the idea of *****ing-as-revolutionary