Revolution 2005

[RedComrade]

It has been decades since any major left-wing disturbances have threatened the first-world bastions of industrial capitalism. Not since the 60's has the imperialist opressor faced any serious challenge to his beloved system. As socialists and revolutionaries this brings us to an interesting question. The revolutions of our fathers have failed us. We have no great revolution of our own. If we attempt to dogmatically copy the tactics of Lenin or more recently the 60's radicals, we can only fail. The capitalists are familiar with these tactics and would only laugh if we were to attempt to copy them. If you are a true follower of Marx and Lenin then you will not copy them, but rather adopt the spirit of their ideas to the current epoch of global capitalist hegemony. This brings us to the most interesting question of all, how will we make revolution in the 21rst century? I feel that the most logical choice would center around some sort of general strike. But with language and nationalism still a very real barrier between the workers of the world how can we overcome this. Obviously an international general strike would fail miserably. We cannot lose heart in this obvious truth, there are ways around this dissapointing circumstance. The global capitalist economy is a machine that quite literally requires fuel to run. You can call all the textile workers of the world to strike- it will still run, you can call all the auto workers to strike- it will still run. There is however, one glaring weakness in the international capitalist's system. OIL. Without oil nothing runs. Comrades to put it simply we must form an international union of militant oil workers. While it is quite simply too much to try and create an international militant socialist union for all workers of all trades I beleive we would have more sucess if we focused our efforts on one segment of the working class. A general strike of the oil workers would bring civilization to its knees, everything would come to a stop. The capitalists would be forced to make concessions. What do you think comrades, obviously this theory has many holes but I have given this subject much thought and it seems like a start. Post critiques or better yet your own unique theories on how we will win this world back in the 21rst century.

[RedLenin]

Quite interesting. That actually would hurt the economy pretty bad. I guess this could weaken capitalism and then we could finish it off with a general strike. This revolution would then require no violence at all. I like the idea.

I must however, point out the importance of a general strike. Without it capialism will continue even if there is no oil for it. But the oil strike could very well weaken it. However, the main aspect of a social revolution is the general strike, without which it would fail miserably.

I like your idea, but I don't think any social revolution will come anytime soon. Within about five years there will probably be a violent uprising to get rid of Bush, but it is a long time before a social revolution.

keep the ideas comming, and we might be able to bring down capitalism when the time comes.

[RedComrade]

Without oil nothing runs though... no power for machinery, no machinery for production, no fuel for transport, no transport to get the food from the farms to the cities. When the economy shuts down civil society falls into a state of unrest. We saw it on a smalller scale with the great depression. If it had not been for FDR's strong leadership and largely socialist policies- along with the war- then I beleive we might very well have witnessed a revolution here in America. If not here then at least in Europe. The point of the oil-workers strike would be to extract concessions from the capitalist juggernaut. Any major concessions would alert the workers of the world to their true power if they act in numbers. Oil strikes cannot single-handedly bring about the downfall of this demonic system. They could very well be the first and most important link in the chain. Even better for us most of these workers lie in countries outside of the first world and therefore they are less likely to be bought off and co-opted by the capitalist culture of America and Europe. After all who will rebel when they can have their big screen tvs, nice dinners, and maybe even a vacation every couple of years. Oil workers largely lie in the third world- Venezuela, Nigeria, the Middle East etc.

[Ele'ill]

I am not going to pretend to be accurate here as i'm not 100% familure with anything I say at any given time :D Setting up 'militant oil workers' or possibly unions of some sort wouldn't really help, you would first need to infiltrate organizations that would potentially control oil, i.e. privitize it. American oil companies for example are run from the top down, they have one seat of power, then everything branches off from there, I suppose in the event that you could infiltrate those types of organizations, there is still very little you could do. (that is a prove me wrong for my own sake of learning statement) The top powers converse with eachother and deal top to top only. They would still be able to find enough non militant/union members to run their oil, so in a sense trying to unionize or militarize a general strike would only cause for further privitization if i'm using that word correclty. I am being cynical only for the sake of debate here. Wild cat strikes would be more impressive, a sudden guerrilla shut down of all forms of labor. I think a powerful militarized shipping union would shut down any hope for capitalism to further succeed, you could block ports, hijack vessels, refuse to work (strike) which would be devestating, but in my opinion, all of this would only further seperate the militarized state from the working class "poor". Armed escourts through the ocean under privitized oil tycoons working closley with the government and co owned by the media...kind sounds familure but it could be much worse. Use your imagination.

[Rockfan]

Originally posted by [email protected] 1 2005, 12:50 AM
Quite interesting. That actually would hurt the economy pretty bad. I guess this could weaken capitalism and then we could finish it off with a general strike. This revolution would then require no violence at all. I like the idea.

I must however, point out the importance of a general strike. Without it capialism will continue even if there is no oil for it. But the oil strike could very well weaken it. However, the main aspect of a social revolution is the general strike, without which it would fail miserably.

I like your idea, but I don't think any social revolution will come anytime soon. Within about five years there will probably be a violent uprising to get rid of Bush, but it is a long time before a social revolution.

keep the ideas comming, and we might be able to bring down capitalism when the time comes.
No it wouldn't requrie violence from us but I'm sure that at leased police violence would occur.

[Ele'ill]

atleast? ...there would be tanks rolling down your street, curfews, you'd be living like the palestinians do. There would be massive misinformation operations and possibly physically fabricated attacks by imaginary insurgents.

[RedComrade]

We need to make a stickied thread where we socialists can discuss our various theories for bringing about our own revolution here and now, in our own time, with our leaders, and our own theories.

[Cal]

Somtimes when I've had a bad day this board really cheers me up.


'The International Union of Militant Oil Workers'


I'll get the t shirts printed,

That must be the world's worst Union the Union that doesn't want to work even if the oil barons try to pay them more money!

[redstar2000]

Trying to "pinpoint" the "key weaknesses" of capitalism is an interesting project...even though decades will pass before we could do anything about it.

The whole "energy sector" is key...capitalism cannot function without it.

"Transport" is also "key"...sailors and dockworkers, truck drivers, railroad workers, airline workers, etc. "keep" capitalism running. I read once that the average American city has about eight days supply of food in grocery stores and warehouses.

In our era, "Information Technology" has become "key"...a corporate nightmare is "we can't do anything because the computers are down".

There's an "army" of IT workers out there who are constantly repairing computer failures (both hardware and software) and keeping corporate networks up and running. If they were "out on strike", the effects would start to "bite" within days.

Interestingly enough, both energy and transport are highly computerized these days. When an American-owned IT company in Venezuela joined the anti-Chavez "strike", the impact on Venezuelan oil production was staggering.

It's something to think about.

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/123.gif

[Freidenker]

The capitalists would hire underpaid, uneducated foreigners to do it in place of the workers.

[(R)evolution of the mind]

Originally posted by [email protected] 2 2005, 06:23 AM
The capitalists would hire underpaid, uneducated foreigners to do it in place of the workers.
They're not doing that already?-)

[Phalanx]

The new revolutions seem to be run by Islamic fundementalists. They fight for a cause that is in almost complete disagreement with ours, but at least they are fighting imperialism. Although i'm pretty sure they want the entire world to be Muslim

[Dyst]

You are talking about terrorism, which is different. Revolution is more like an open war (or maybe not so open, IOW insurgency) in contrast to terrorism, which is militant attacks made by a little group of people (or one person,) most often against civilists.

[Urban Guerrilla]

We need a Revolution, not terrorism.

[Ele'ill]

If you are familure with the theories of 'revolution', only the last stage of a revolution would be violent, and that is only if it would be neccisary at that point.

[Black Radical]

A revolution to overthrow capitalism MUST be violent. Capitalists will not lie down for a revolution and they wont just sit back while the revolution moves into the next stage of rebuilding the country and giving birth to its new economy.

This is one of the lessons learned fro the Paris Commune. They had no army to defend their new society and therefore were easily smashed. Unfortunately, there are no easy ways around the question of violence in revolutons.

[RedLenin]

But a general strike means that police and military can't get paid. I very much doubt
that a cop is going to say "sure I'll go murder my family and friends for free!" If the armed forces of capitalism cannot get paid, they will not work. The world runs on profits, if they stop getting them, they will not do anything. No, revolution does not require violence. There should not be any violence. If we don't use violence, I don't think they will because it will only gain support for the revolution if they attack peacefull people.

We should build our system here and now, and then stop using this one. That's all it takes.

[Ele'ill]

Many people make the mistake in assuming a revolution against capitalism, lets say in america would be like two armies, one being unconventional guerrilla, the other being massive bombing planes and troop movments, slamming together. This is romantic but false. There are no guerrillas right now. To think that the current number of people willing to take up arms against america, internally, with little or no combat experience, at the same time with enough organization to compete against a heavily armed and highly trained military, domestic law enforment, and internal and external intelligence agencies is insane. (long sentence :) ) The Minority being the guerrillas would first need to win the hearts and minds of the people, in this case by exposing the falacies distributed by the government. If any force or aggression is shown by the guerrillas the empire will strike back immediatley against what they would dub 'domestic terrorism'. As I said before, a revolution in this country would not be violent. I doubt in reguards to morals, that enough soldiers would engage their own civilian population if there was no aggression shown by the guerrillas. There would be dissent among all ranks over this issue. Unions could be organized to strike, block shipping ports ect.. Violence will make this country stronger, saying ya basta and putting down your tools will force it to change or face a collapse of economy to some degree.

[Famepollution]

A revolution to overthrow capitalism MUST be violent. Capitalists will not lie down for a revolution and they wont just sit back while the revolution moves into the next stage of rebuilding the country and giving birth to its new economy.


The revolution will not be violent. The Capitalist responce would be violent. When the workers storm the factories and take back the land the Bourgeoisie would A) agree and give up B) High tail it out of there to go to a Capitalist country/city and form a reactionary army. The war between the working class and the Foreign reactionary army will be bloody.



This is one of the lessons learned fro the Paris Commune. They had no army to defend their new society and therefore were easily smashed. Unfortunately, there are no easy ways around the question of violence in revolutons.

Organized Armies would only hinder the revolution. Question have you ever known a Pro communist in the Army? any armed forces would automaticly drift towards their pay providers and try to squash our communist revolution. Oh and if we tried to form a army out of communists, its strict authoritarian structure would only corrupt the people in it and thus Back To Class systems

[Black Radical]

WTF, I erased my post I gotta mkae another one.

[Black Radical]

The revolution will not be violent. The Capitalist responce would be violent.

The capitalist response to what? A revolution? Which means what? Taking over factories, precincts, hospitals, army bases, schools, everything. How can this happen without violence?

Workers go on strike and the ruling class sends in cops to violently break it up. Workers can't even protest without some state-sponsored violence, but a revolution wont be violent? There are millions of workers who can be won to communism and there are millions who cannot/will not be. Some will be in the Armed forces, or police or citizens with guns. They will fight and revolutionaries would have to fight as well. If and when they win, they would need to be ready to fight again, when the cappies regroup in another country as you said.


Question have you ever known a Pro communist in the Army?
Known personally no. Heard about it from severeal different sources, yes. There are accounts of it happening in Vietnam. Soldiers who ran of and joined the vietcong. It happens.


Any armed forces would automaticly drift towards their pay providers and try to squash our communist revolution. Oh and if we tried to form a army out of communists, its strict authoritarian structure would only corrupt the people in it and thus Back To Class systems

This is like saying any worker would automatically drift towards their pay providers, which obviously isn't true. Soldiers and cops, are workers. Many of whom have joined strictly for financial reasons. Do you know how many communists are being born in the modern armed forces as a result of the war in Iraq? Many. Their jobs don't make them stupid or blind to whats going on. Some of them will be won and others wont.

Also, you falesely assume that the only way possible to run an army is in a strict authoritarian structure, and that this would inevitably only lead the people in it back to class systems.

Way too much assumption going on with that and I will simply say its not true. The fact that there are communists within a strict authoritarian capitalist army pretty much negates your last sentence.

[RedLenin]

Wow I just had a great idea. Here is a plan for a revolution with absolutely 100% no bloodshed. The oil workers go on strike. This will cripple capitalism around the world. Then we can finish it off here. The government will go at the same time. We need to cut all of the power in the US!! EVERYTHING shuts down with out power if we had no power for a long period of time, the government would become so completely unorganized that it could do nothing! We could do this around the world to. With out power all organization will basically cease and nothing will get done. This can be the most effective and non-violent revolution ever if done properly. :lol:

[Black Radical]

Originally posted by [email protected] 7 2005, 11:10 PM
Wow I just had a great idea. Here is a plan for a revolution with absolutely 100% no bloodshed. The oil workers go on strike. This will cripple capitalism around the world. Then we can finish it off here. The government will go at the same time. We need to cut all of the power in the US!! EVERYTHING shuts down with out power if we had no power for a long period of time, the government would become so completely unorganized that it could do nothing! We could do this around the world to. With out power all organization will basically cease and nothing will get done. This can be the most effective and non-violent revolution ever if done properly. :lol:
Th egovernment would come in and kill or arrest all of those workers. They are not going to allow that to happen. Revolutions without violence just dont happen. People need to get over the violence thing, it as hard to swallow, but it is a neccessity.

[Ele'ill]

They can come in and arrest all several thousand of the workers and put them where? Ok Ok, that is feasable however it would be highly symbolic. Violence will rapidly increase the militarization of the state/region/province/tribe whatever and would be put down rather quickly. Maybe the two in unison would work rather well. It seems as though a high percentage of the recent threads on this forum develope into this conversation. Violence or non-violence. Interesting.

[novemba]

I've been thinking about this for a long time. Humankind isn't on the right track yet. It would be nearly impossible to have a wide scale revolution right now, cause when it comes down to it, sure the oppressed classes are sick of it, and sure the knowledgable know about the atrocities of capitalism and imperialism, but the fact remains that the majority of mankinds fate lies in the hands of the rich and powerful, and thats how were fucked. The only thing we could do would be to start a guerilla army for the advancement of mankind and fight for what we believe in.

Let's do it, I'm ready.

[Ele'ill]

Yeah, except the part where you fight for what we believe in. I do not believe an armed conflict would turn out, eh, positive to sugarcoat. People in general have been saying 'lets rise up' for years. Nobody has taken that first step. What is that first step? How do we know how to ignite the masses? Will we recognize that first step when it happens? Or maybe it already happened and we missed the signal. The idea that a spontaneous revolt will work on a global scale is actually insane.


but the fact remains that the majority of mankinds fate lies in the hands of the rich and powerful, and thats how were fucked. The only thing we could do would be to start a guerilla army for the advancement of mankind and fight for what we believe in.


The rich and powerful dictate the lives of the meek. They control politics and economics hand in hand. You are going to do the same thing by fighting against them and overthrowing them reguardless of any abolishment of power and currency ect. You are still commiting that ideological crime of choosing for 'mankind'. Maybe you should have just said "advancement of mankind and fight for what I believe in"




I've been thinking about this for a long time. Humankind isn't on the right track yet. It would be nearly impossible to have a wide scale revolution right now,

So what's the point of starting a guerrilla war if you the suggester of the idea, is unsure of it's success?


I've been thinking about this for a long time

:P

[novemba]

So what's the point of starting a guerrilla war if you the suggester of the idea, is unsure of it's success?


Because I'd be fighting for what I believe in regardless of whether or not it would be successful in the end, if things worked that way then whats the point of conflict at all? I mean if Guevara and Castro thought they were gonna get annihilated something tells me they wouldn't have just quit in Mexico. The Iraqis aren't fighting cause they think theyre gonna win, theyre fighting because they believe in the dream of liberation from and imperialist army, the list goes on...shit under your theory we should just quit now...succesful or not im fighting for a cause thats worth fighting for, and even if its quelled it'll turn some heads.

I'm not fronting either, I'm ready to take up arms right now.

[Ele'ill]

Because I'd be fighting for what I believe in regardless of whether or not it would be successful in the end, if things worked that way then whats the point of conflict at all?

You'd be fighting for what YOU believe in. Not neccisarily what the masses believe in. What's the point of conflict at all. The point of conflict, in this case is you either make it worth while or you don't do it. You said yourself that you weren't sure if a global revolution would be succesful. So why start one?


I mean if Guevara and Castro thought they were gonna get annihilated something tells me they wouldn't have just quit in Mexico

I suppose I could be very wrong but Guevara and Castro had nothing to do with mexico. However you are right, they could have just stopped and given up. The reason they didn't was because they had popular support of the people and were essentially fighting against a not so militarized or organized region.


shit under your theory we should just quit now...succesful or not im fighting for a cause thats worth fighting for, and even if its quelled it'll turn some heads.

I'm not fronting either, I'm ready to take up arms right now.

Under my theory you should just quit now and start thinking about how your actions are going to affect others. My guess is that you will take up arms by yourself and do something incredibley irrational and end up in jail for the rest of your life. This is the easy way out. You feel like you've stood up to the system when in fact you just surrendered. Whos heads are you going to turn? Explain to me your plan for this uprising of yours. I'd like to understand how you'll plan it so that it benefits me and the millions of others who are skeptical of your plot.

[novemba]

I suppose I could be very wrong but Guevara and Castro had nothing to do with mexico

They trained their army in mexico....therefore they could have quit there before they got to cuba

[Ele'ill]

So tell me about your planned uprising, how will it benefit me, and how will it benefit the majority of the world?

BTW, I was assuming you were simply misinformed or high when discussing che, fidel and mexico. Didn't know you were refering to specifics. I appologize for any wrongful finger pointing.

[novemba]

^It's all good.

I don't know if details should be discussed openly. PM me if you get serious.

But basically we need to start informing the masses that its serious, and work on getting them on our side. I have a lot of ideas involving the underground subcultures combined with guerilla communication and cultural jamming we could definately get attention. From there you start guerilla bands everywhere theres support and start strategical attacks on capitalist strongholds, attacks that would do maximum damage with minimal casualities on both sides. Somewhat like what ETA is doing, and their damn close to independence. Word Up, Let's do it.

[Ele'ill]

ETA is violent.

[Colombia]

Originally posted by [email protected] 21 2005, 12:13 AM
But basically we need to start informing the masses that its serious, and work on getting them on our side. I have a lot of ideas involving the underground subcultures combined with guerilla communication and cultural jamming we could definately get attention. From there you start guerilla bands everywhere theres support and start strategical attacks on capitalist strongholds, attacks that would do maximum damage with minimal casualities on both sides. Somewhat like what ETA is doing, and their damn close to independence. Word Up, Let's do it.
For the first time on me being on this message board I have laughed. Honesty can you get more specific on this guerilla communication and cultural jamming please?

[ElCap'nCommie]

The revolution is not an apple that falls when it is ripe. You have to make it fall.
-El Che

[novemba]

For the first time on me being on this message board I have laughed. Honesty can you get more specific on this guerilla communication and cultural jamming please?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jamming

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Culture_jamming

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guerrilla_communication

Basically, use their systems to convey our message. Public Access. Political Graffiti. Posters. Propaganda. Here's an example, at my school, we have a video production class. They broadcast the school channel during the day but at night its practically blank. I could easily run videos on the channel, which is on standard cable packages/and even basic microwave TV. Seek. Inflitrate. Destroy.

[RedLenin]

Is guerrilla warfare really necessary? Do we need to start the violence? No. We can go about a revolution peacefully and only use violence in defense. Guerrilla warfare is not needed and will only further militarize the state. It's best to use strikes and lock-ins and other non-violent tactics to win a revolution. By advocating guerrilla warfare, you are supporting MASSIVE violence as opposed to the very little we would face if we went about a revolution peacefully.

[ElCap'nCommie]

Guerilla warfare is essential to any revolution, but it is to be adapted to modern warfare and used in conjunction with other tools of the revolution (ie. strikes, protests, boycotts, etc.). For instance commando strikes on important targets such as oil tankers, oil depots, and oil wells (to cripple oil hungry capitalist machine). If orchestrated correctly and carried out with minimal causalties on both sides, guerilla war can be a useful tool... then again im a total n00b...

[Ele'ill]

Is guerrilla warfare really necessary? Do we need to start the violence? No. We can go about a revolution peacefully and only use violence in defense. Guerrilla warfare is not needed and will only further militarize the state. It's best to use strikes and lock-ins and other non-violent tactics to win a revolution. By advocating guerrilla warfare, you are supporting MASSIVE violence as opposed to the very little we would face if we went about a revolution peacefully.

Agreed.


For instance commando strikes on important targets such as oil tankers, oil depots, and oil wells (to cripple oil hungry capitalist machine). If orchestrated correctly and carried out with minimal causalties on both sides, guerilla war can be a useful tool... then again im a total n00b...

Utopian. Dropping flowers instead of bombs could in essence also avoid war and the enemy would get the point that flowers are pretty and war is ugly and yay lets go sing. Anything has the potential to go correctly. Could a revolutionary movment risk loosing rapport with the public and some of it's own bodies in these raids? Would it be worth it? I do not think it would be.

[codyvo]

In theory cutting off the oil supply is a good idea but it would never work. It is impossible to get all the oil workers on our side. I think this should be considered but in the end we need a differant approach to the idea of a revolution.

[rebelworker]

WOW, I`m a little concerned here with the direction this debate has taken...

THE REVOLUTION IS NOT A VIDEO GAME...

you can`t just make up a plan on the internet and presto..

millions of people have lived and died for the goals of freedom and communism, learn from them, don`t take this shit lightly.

Uping the anti is not a good idea in america right now, guerilla warfare has been attempted in the US in the late 60`s and it failed miserably.

THE weather underground, Black Liberation Army, United Freedom Front, Sybioneese Liberation Army. All filled with people (with the exception of the BLA and UFF) did just what you are doing now, hey guys things look desperate, lets go underground and lead the masses to salvation.

One of the largest reasons that things are in such bad shapê in the US is beacuse the revolutionary left has been totaly out of touch with the day to day reality of the working class since the 40`s.

Revolution is not an instant formula, it is a long ongoing process that takes many many years, sometimes lifetimes. Go out get to know the people in your neigborhood, what are their greivances, work on campaings that affect their daily lives. Network with other revolutionaries, build large above ground organisations with widscale alternative media capabilities. Learn modern revoluutionary and class struggle history, and link it to today.

This is not zarist Russia, semi Feudal Cuba or Imperial China.

I know you all have extreemly good intentions, but hastey moves get people killed and movements discredited.

And importantly, watch your security culture, the FBI is watching you, they now know who you are and that you wanna use weapons to start shit. In most countries this simple slip up could have gotten yuo killed.

More thoughts later,

In solidarity,
Rebelworker

[Red Robe Majere]

I agree with you it isnt a joke plus we dont have the population to have a Revolution we would need more people more of the poor we also need sulppies. Last oil workers get paid not like tomato pickers.

[novemba]

THE weather underground, Black Liberation Army, United Freedom Front, Sybioneese Liberation Army. All filled with people (with the exception of the BLA and UFF) did just what you are doing now, hey guys things look desperate, lets go underground and lead the masses to salvation.


Conintelpro....FBI Destroyed it and also started West Coast/East Coast beef

[Severian]

Seems to me that new strategies mostly evolve out of the struggle itself and aren't going to be devised from pure theory.

[Ele'ill]

Revolution is not an instant formula, it is a long ongoing process that takes many many years, sometimes lifetimes. Go out get to know the people in your neigborhood, what are their greivances, work on campaings that affect their daily lives. Network with other revolutionaries, build large above ground organisations with widscale alternative media capabilities. Learn modern revoluutionary and class struggle history, and link it to today.

I agree. My opinion is that the essence of revolution cannot be used any longer. It has to become more transparent with more reachable goals at hand. Drop your political ideas and labels and find out what is going on in your immediate community. Push for change in enviromental policies in your township (if change is needed), start pushing for changes in roads that affect traffic flow, further building of houses or buisinesses..the list goes on. I am sure some of you think these things are petty. They may be, however if you reach out to your neighborhood, your community and actually show that you as their neighbor care, they will give feedback, and very well may get involved also. Once the community realizes they can change simple things such as traffic lights, flow of traffic, pollution, construction, ect.. they will realize they have the power to change other things that they once thought were out of reach. It is a sin that only those running for a political seat reach out and listen to the community (although they rarley act on it). It seems to me as if the strategy is to jump over the community to overthrow their government. This will not work in my opinion. How many of you know your neighbor's political orientation, in depth? A bumper sticker doesn't qualify. How many of you know about their personal greivances in reguards to their township? Have any of you communicated with your neighbors, being those in your township/country, and asked them what their concerns were? If you do this, you will find out what tactics should be used for change. Who is willing to partake, and who is not; although the idea is not to distinguish those that agree with you from those that don't, it's about supporting what the community wants, what the masses want not what your personal ideology states.

[redstar2000]

Originally posted by Mari3L
Drop your political ideas and labels and find out what is going on in your immediate community. Push for change in environmental policies in your township (if change is needed), start pushing for changes in roads that affect traffic flow, further building of houses or businesses..the list goes on. I am sure some of you think these things are petty.

They are petty!

This is also the "wisdom" of unconditional surrender to the despotism of capital.

If people are not "ready for immediate revolution", then we should just "drop our ideas" and go a-begging for petty "reforms" that will change nothing of substance.

I can't imagine any perspective more utterly demoralizing.

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/123.gif

[Iepilei]

The conditions being created by modern capitalism are distorting the disdain for the system in it's deepest regions. The ability for the corporation to lance out workers from foriegn nations and treat them like shit masks the tyranny in the minds of the apathetic; those here, in the industrialised world, who just don't care.

Social revolution, in my opinion, is probably a while away. Though our numbers are growing, we do not have the support of moderates to gain their trust in carrying the transition through. We cannot expect everyone to be "communists" when the revolution comes; but we can lend support to them, and they will support us.

We must embrace all peoples, not just the workers in the factories and fields. We have to get the attention of the technicians, the bureaucrats, the management, the soldiers, the police, the operators, the foremans... everyone is and should be involved in the changes in the world.

The unity amongst all groups will prove to give us the upper hand against whatever may face us in the future. Our job is to break that apathy that imprisons their minds.

[Ele'ill]

They are petty!

This is also the "wisdom" of unconditional surrender to the despotism of capital.

If people are not "ready for immediate revolution", then we should just "drop our ideas" and go a-begging for petty "reforms" that will change nothing of substance.

I can't imagine any perspective more utterly demoralizing.

Demoralizing for who? You or the general community that finally see that they have a voice. Apathy in america is at an all time high. Do you suggest a revolutionary movment should target government directly, and cross their fingers that the masses join in? My point was that most people don't know the power they have, and unfortunatley don't have. If they were to get involved at a community level, they would see both of these. How can you hope to errect a revolutionary movment without a general public awarness?


I can't imagine any perspective more utterly demoralizing

I can. A failing revolution of any type simply because the masses had never participated in any civic action. They will remain apathetic. If you encourage the masses to jump, they won't know how.

[Rockfan]

Originally posted by [email protected] 26 2005, 09:09 PM

I can't imagine any perspective more utterly demoralizing

I can. A failing revolution of any type simply because the masses had never participated in any civic action. They will remain apathetic. If you encourage the masses to jump, they won't know how.
Yeah but don't worry, after a failed revolution you probly wont be round for that long anyway!!

[Ele'ill]

Right now at this moment I am a fair weather revolutionary. Just one in the masses that is looking for a significant change in strategy and goals. Why would I not live too long after?

[Rockfan]

Well I'm thinking from a leaders point of veiw. A capitalist government wouldn't have them round you know.

[rebelworker]

mari3L i think you touched on something really important, that is reaching people throught their day to day opression or alienation not by some grand revolutionary shceem, revolutionaries are the best at winning reforms and you will be there to explain the larger system and power structure when these reform movments run up against the limits of a system that is not built for them.

labour organizing, tenants rights and anti racism/prison/police brutality work are all good ways to help people deal with their day to day problems and make the links to how the capitalist system works.

[viva le revolution]

This is in reply to a message posted.I agree and admire some of the suggestions to overthrow imperialism.In my opinion one way to overthrow imperialism would be to start acting out the strikes and proposed revolutionary activities at the same time as imperial powers are engaged in conflicts with islamic militants.for the imperial powers are preoccupied with the 'war on terrorism'. If an action such as an oil workers strike is organized that would greatly hamper imperialist forces' ability to maintain imperial conquests and interventions in other countries.
However i must disagree with a message posted that militant islamic groups are in conflict with our objectives.The enemy of my enemy is my friend.Their actions against imperialism can only help us by forcing the imperialists to risk their armies and economies in wars that acheive little and embarass the imperialistic masterminds.True the goals may not be the same but their conflicts are only regional ones for eg.for palestine,kashmir,chechnya etc.
Although we may not agree with thier means THEIR TARGET IS OUR TARGET!IMPERIALISM AND IT'S PUPPETS!
Thus my original suggestion that any revolutionary action must be taken during conflicts with islamic militants as that would not only weaken imperlistic hold over foreign territory but also a power shortage would create prime conditions for a mass revolution!

[Vincent]

My major problem with the threadstarters idea is that it presumes that the oil workers are going to think like us. We have to question do they want to bring capitalism down? It is seems to be a common mistake to assume that we, the 'revolutionaries' are going to get the support of the millions of workers just because we say we know what they REALLY need and want.

Also, a strike is probambly the wrong word. A boycott of their bosses, maybe? I don't know. But waht I do understand is that most strikes ocur when the workers are dissatisfied with wages, conditions etc. and they want to CHANGE that. I do not believe that this implies they want to overthrow their boss.

But, nevertheless, keep the revolution ideas a flowing!!

[Black Radical]

If a lot of you would take the time to read some marx and lenin it would be clear to you why many of these strategies fail. In a society that is as developed as the US, it would take millions of people to get any movement started.

But most importantly, it takes years of organizaing. There would have to be workers in the oil factory who were won to communist ideas and who weere also linked to their struggle oon the outside. The news will paint a very bad picture of them, so there will have to be other sources of information for regular people to understand why they are doing what they are doing.

things look bad for us on the left now, but they get better with each move Bush makes. He is pushing many inteligent people further to the left.

[More Fire for the People]

Society lives in grave times, society lives in a time where the ethical foundations of the human spirit are trampled by those who wish to destroy our morality of liberation.

Society lives in time were state-sanctioned corporate-terrorism against humanity is prevalent amongst the third world.

The environment of our precious Earth is being eroded by the fascist; they break our laws and control our politicians so that their will may be done.
Democracy has become synonymous with corporate sponsored elections, fascist control the United States of America, Democrats are fading into a faction of whiney social democrats and nepotistic liberals, social democracy is substituted for socialism in Europe, and the third world still continues to die off because of cultural and economic imperialism.

At this moment, every person true to the human soul and its bond with socialism must step forth and eliminate the capitalist once and for all. Our revolution must be world wide, whether it is in parliament or Parker Street.

The people are listening to our complaints and agreeing, what do you think would happen if we actually done something?