What does everyone think of China?

[RedStarOverChina]

As a Chinese Marxist, I'd like to know wht everyone thinks of China. As you may or may not know, China is suffering from the pains brought by capitalist reforms and industrialization. I'd communicated with the Communist Parties in both US and Canada. I think their position is that, they tolerate those reforms as means to setup a socialist society.
Please think about questions such as, how can we bring an end to capitalism? can the it be brought down by a Bolshevik revolution?

[UtopicImperium]

Im quite ignorant in the situation of China. Can i have more information on whats going on there?

[America]

What does everyone think of China:

Not much.

But some of their women are hot. Note I said SOME. Nothing worse than stripping down a girl only to find her body is too much like a boy's. But I hear China's becoming big on breast augmentation surgery, no joke. They even have a beauty pagent for it. Maybe things will get better: hot Chinese girls with rack!

America

[RedStarOverChina]

After the Bolshevik revolution in Russia, the Chinese communists are very much encouraged. Under the commander of the military and political genius, Mao, the Chinese Red Army struggled for more than 20 years before coming to power in 1949.

Maoism, as westerners call it, is characterized by its belief in a peasant-based revolution. Mao Zedong Thoughts also called for resistance against western imperialism. So on and so forth....

Ernesto "Che" Guevara was influenced by both Mao's military tactics and political thoughts; and that might had influenced him in his decision to favor China when China and USSR became enemies of eachother.

After Mao's death in 1976, revisionists headed by Deng XiaoPing took over from Mao's appointed successor, Hua Guofeng. Deng's capitalist reformations lead to both economical prosperity(especially in the east) and political and social unease, in part due to the lack of direction( would think). Also contributing to the unease is the widespread corruption and the soaring gap between rich and poor.

That was the most objective look on the recent Chinese development i can offer for the moment. If u still have questions or comments, dont hesitate to present them. They are music to the ears.

[Zingu]

The CP(M) of China calls it "Market Socialism" to help stimulate the econonmic growth of the country; they are going to have biggest migration into cities in history in a few years as well.

Quite frankly, I don't think they are going anywhere to Socialism again. Its something like 50/50 privatized and nationalized industry.

Maybe if there are still some loyally Maoist or otherwise Communist elements within the autonomous PLA (Peoples' Liberation Army); they could try something if the situation shows itself; but thats probably wishful thinking.

[America]

Zingu, not a chance...

The problem with freedom is that it snowballs. The PRC's Communist Party leaders (well, mainly those in their 20's and 30's who planned to replace the leadership in the next 10-20 years) continue to laughably argue about the relevence of the party. What a joke. They are being left behind and thrown on the ash-heap of history, where they belong. 50/50. Try 95 private/5 public (not that the PRC's public institutions ever really worked for the "public" interest. You'd have to go to the U.S. to find a public sector that works for the piblic interests.

America

[Zingu]

http://www.soviet-empire.com/images/humour/capitalist_cpc.gif

[RedStarOverChina]

"they are going to have biggest migration into cities in history in a few years as well." That is one of the characteristics of the industrialization going on in China, which is a painful process.

While the above comments are true, I place hope in the developement of communism in China. As a Marxist, I believe the progress of society does not depend on a few individuals in the ruling class(if u wish to refer to them that way). The sheer number of peasants and workers in China dictates that a bourgeoisie ruling class would be impossible to hold strong.

Also, I dont agree with the way Zinqu place hope in PLA, and wish them to take part in revolutionizing China. I'd rather think that Capitalism can not be crushed by violence, just like you can't fight evil with evil, 'cause at the end evil still wins.

[UtopicImperium]

RedStarOverChina, thanks for giving an overview...

I know China during the Mao years and a little bit of the post Mao years, but my main question is how is China right now? Do you see China tilting more to the right or left? and what are the main problems right now? or even good things, right now?

Thanks...

[RedStarOverChina]

The current government of Hu Jintao is characterized by even tougher policies against oppositions from a handful of individuals, claiming themselves to be intellegencias(educated class), or democrats.
The policy of CCP (chinese communist party), since late 1970s has been: "signal left, and turn right." Which means, he government, tho officially try to remain marxist in terms of politics, introduced right-wing policies in terms of economics.

China currently is in a mixture of prosperity and turmoil (perhaps too strong a term?).

The Chinese economy is currently a engine for world economy. It consumes and produces so much for the world, while attracting tremedous amount of investments into the country to speed up its industrialization and development. I believe it is currently the second most attractive place for investments, second only to US.

As mentioned above, China is going through an industrial revolution. That means, rapid developments, accompanied by massive movement of peasants into cities to find work. That presents many problems, such as abuse of rights of the workers.

Other problems stem from the rapid growth as well. For example, the gap between the rich and poor is widening. Corruption is rampaging throughout the country. Those factors led to many recent peasant uprisings.

[flyby]

I think china was a great revolutionary beacon during the years of mao tsetung.

The 1949 revolution encouraged a new wave of anti-colonial and socialist revolution in the world.

The break with soviet revisioinism, gave people hope that world revolution was pressing ahead, and the gray, oppressive world of the USSR was not the only possible face of socialism.

The great proletarian cultural revolution gave a manifesto-like answer to the question "how do we construct a continuing revolution under socialism and fight the capitalist roaders in high places." And for ten years the very heroic communists and revolutionary activists of china fought against the restoration of china.

I also think that capitalism was restored after Mao's death, in the Deng/Hua/Yeh cheying coup detat of 1976, where the capitalist roaders finally seized overall power and overthrew mao's close followers (who they called "The Gang of Four.")

And i think the last decades have plunged China and its people into the horrors of capitalism -- putting them at the mercy of international capital, unleashing the vicious rule of feudalism and capitalism in the coutnryside, forcing chinese farmers to become propertyless proletarians wandering restlessly and hopelessly toward the cities.....

And i want to suggest that you study the analyses here: http://rwor.org/s/china.htm
because there is much more than I can express in one post!

Glad to see you here -- redstar over china!

[UtopicImperium]

Thanks for the information RedStarOverChina

flyby...some of th links in the website don't work. Are there any other place where i can get related information?

[bolshevik butcher]

mao, a genius, while he was great militarily he killed over 60 milion people, and was gradually phasing out human rights. Today china is just a state capitalist dictatorship. It ain't even state capitalist anymore.

[1949]

The articles which for some reason cannot be accessed from rwor.org's China page are available here:

http://rwor.org/a/1248/mao_china_setting_record_straight.htm

http://rwor.org/a/1251/communism_socialism...china_facts.htm (http://rwor.org/a/1251/communism_socialism_mao_china_facts.htm)

[NYer565]

Besides the massive human rights violations...I'm sure it's nice.

[flyby]

http://rwor.org/a/1248/mao_china_setting_record_straight.htm << this worked for me.

here is another interesting set of links: http://rwor.org/s/world.htm#china

[bolshevik butcher]

Originally posted by [email protected] 5 2005, 10:09 PM
Besides the massive human rights violations...I&#39;m sure it&#39;s nice.
fuck it, i&#39;m agreeeing with a cappie.

[flyby]

Originally posted by Clenched Fist+Feb 6 2005, 11:28 AM--> (Clenched Fist @ Feb 6 2005, 11:28 AM)
[email protected] 5 2005, 10:09 PM
Besides the massive human rights violations...I&#39;m sure it&#39;s nice.
fuck it, i&#39;m agreeeing with a cappie. [/b]
I suggest you study it more deeply.

The Chinese revoluton was not characterized by "massive human rights violation" but the most sweeping and historic liberation of human beings in modern history.

The Chinese revolution of 1949 led to the revolutionary transfer of land to hundreds of millions of peasants (freeing them from grinding servitude to feudal landlords.) It ended the sale of girls into marriage, prostitution, arranged marriage.

It ended the awful subordination of china to foreign colonialists -- the dividing up of China into "foreign concessions", the robbery of human labor and wealth.

It ended the massive addiction of chinese people to opium (imposed and enforced by the British starting with the infamous "opium wars.")

It opened the way toward socialism, the creation of a new industrialized sector with new production relations, and a planned direction that produced goods for human needs not profit.

There is much more to say and sum up.

but my basic point is this: Communist revolution in China was true liberation -- for a quarter of humanity. Its power and depth are breathtaking. The impact on human lives and hopes was profound -- all over the planet. The whole following wave of anti-colonial struggles in Africa, Asia, South America was inspired and spurred by the victory led by Mao.

So when you casually repeat what you were taught about so-called "human rights violations" -- you need to dig deeper, my dear friend&#33;&#33;

[flyby]

Just a few examples

Childcare and the liberation of women in china (http://rwor.org/a/v21/1020-029/1024/chdcare.htm)

How Maoist revolution ended drug addiction (http://rwor.org/a/china/opium.htm)

[CommieDuK]

well i hear that China will have the best economy in the world after 15 years?? is it true???

[flyby]

china&#39;s economy is now capitalist. Its labor is sold to imperialism. Its economic live is being restructured to serve the capitalist world market. Its youth are pressed into sweathshops, and its dislocated farmers are driven by market forces into vast new shantytowns.

It may become the biggest economy in the world, but it is becoming worse and worse (since the maoists were overthrown in 1976).

Fuck Deng and his clones.

[chebol]

While I disagree with much of flyby&#39;s characterisation of &#39;socialist china&#39;, the previous post is a fairly accurate statement. The decisive moment may be located at and around the Tianenmen Square crackdown. There was a serious movement towards democracy and socialism, not so much amongst the students, who tended to be influenced by western ideas of "democracy", but in various workers&#39; organs, most of whose existence never made a mention in the West, and who were exterminated ven more ruthlessly than the students were.

That said, and china&#39;s blatant capitalist road noted, there is significant dissent in China, including in the armed forces and the higher ranks of the CCP, to suggest a resurgent left. Whether it is anywhere near strong enough only time can tell, but I can tell you that their orientation appears to be very strongly influeced by the example of Cuba (by both specific reference and mention of the "Battle of Ideas").

Details will be in the forthcoming edition of LINKS magazine, including the full text of a circular letter addressed to Hu Jintao by senior and veteran members of the CCP and military. In another article it will be counterposed to the situation in Vietnam, which has taken a more pragmatically socialist view to economic and social development.
Follow the links (he he) to the Links site (only previous editions on line atm)
http://www.dsp.org.au/
The DSP also has a fairly recent pamphlet (published last year) which outlines the argument for the trajectory of capitalist restoration in China.

[bolshevik butcher]

Originally posted by [email protected] 6 2005, 08:08 PM
well i hear that China will have the best economy in the world after 15 years?? is it true???
Best? Biggest yes, but it wills still be mainly made up of people payed poverty wages. When I mean human rtights abuses I mean events like Taineman square, or are we gonna denie that this happened as well?

[1949]

I made a post similar to this a few days ago, but it looks to me that it has disappeared, so I&#39;ll try again.

Two points on the Tiananmen indicidents of 1989, which a couple of people mentioned:

1) This took place after capitalist restoration in China.

2) Maoists were among those protesting.

Here&#39;s a neat pic:

http://rwor.org/i/china/tianm4.jpg

ANTI-GOVERNMENT REBELS IN TIANANMEN SQUARE, 1989. THE MAN AT LEFT IS HOLDING THE RED BOOK OF QUOTATIONS FROM CHAIRMAN MAO TSETUNG

REBELDES EN LA PLAZA TIANANMEN, 1989. EL HOMBRE A LA IZQUIERDA TIENE EL LIBRO ROJO DE CITAS DEL PRESIDENTE MAO TSETUNG

more photos of Tiananmen here: http://rwor.org/i/china/tian1.htm

and articles: http://rwor.org/a/china/tienamen.htm

I particularly suggest "The Tiananmen Square Rebellion: An Inside Story", an interview conducted with a student who went into the movement following bourgeois-democratic ideology and went on to become a Marxist while in prison. http://rwor.org/a/v21/1005-009/1009/tianint.htm

[Revolutionarythought]

What do I think of China? I think China is a dictarship of the Capitalist roaders, and I would like to see a workers revolution in China. Unfortunately, I feel the Chinesse government is helping to kill Marxist sentiment amongst the people of China.

But, I&#39;ve never been to China, and never talked to anyone from China.... so....


-S

[bolshevik butcher]

Ineteresting to see that about taineman square, i think it&#39;s terrible that the wests gonna start selling weapons to china.

[Severian]

Originally posted by [email protected] 31 2005, 04:49 PM
Ernesto "Che" Guevara was influenced by both Mao&#39;s military tactics and political thoughts; and that might had influenced him in his decision to favor China when China and USSR became enemies of eachother.
The second part&#39;s false. Link to post (http://www.revolutionaryleft.com/index.php?showtopic=1227&st=40&#entry487232)

***

China might have the biggest economy in 15 years if current growth rates continue that long. Which is a big assumption.

China&#39;s growth is fueled by people moving from countryside to city, from agriculture to industry. There are still a lot of people in the Chinese countryside, but other limits may be hit first: available export markets, for example. Inflation, boom and bust cycles, and other financial consequences of rapid growth. Willingness of a growing working class to continue putting up with this crap.

Reportedly, over 100,000 labor disputes occur in China every year. Some of are very large and involve factory occupations, blocked roads and railways, managers taken prisoner, and/or fighting with police. They involve state, employee-owned, private, and foreign-owned companies. Many are sparked by the consequences of the privatizations, pension cutbacks, and other moves towards capitalism.

Peasant unrest is also on the increase.

A couple articles on this: link (http://weijingsheng.org/doc/labor/Leaner%20Factories,%20Fewer%20Workers%20Bring%20Mo re%20Labor%20Unrest%20to%20China.htm)

link (http://www.laborrights.org/projects/china/labor/unrest0504.html)

This could all really bust loose if growth slows...or even goes into a boom-and-bust cycle. Uncertainty is a great producer of unrest.