March 19

[h&s]

Yeah I know its a bit early for this, but what the heck! On march the 19th there is to be another anti-war demo in London, and all those here in the UK should go, no excuses! It starts in central London at 1pm (in case you haven't seen the hundreds of flyers up about it already!)

[The Feral Underclass]

Yet another SWP/RESPECT walk through central London being nice to the police and waving placards.

Repetition is boring.

I encourage people to go to London but to think of other ways to resist. Even doing actions in your own towns would be a better way to show your defiance than walking peacefully and politly through the streets.

[Ĉħé_Ĝűĕ]

Well fuck walking peacefully and politely through the streets then :P

[bolshevik butcher]

There's a march in edinburgh as well.

[commiecrusader]

Walking peacefully through the streets won't obviously topple capitalism by itself. However it is a good way to demonstrate the levels of support/oppostion to various ideas/policies.

[Donnie]

Becuase there is a big demo going in London. This means we can get some revolutionary activities done, becuase of the big distraction. Hmm but what to do????

*Brick a Pig Car
*Spray Class War in front of Banks or Big Posh cars.
*Try to turn the protests into a Riot??

[Ell Carino]

I'ma be there, it's funny cuz i was talkin with my brother and best mate about joining in with the next Anti-War demo. I'll bring flyers, make shirts... the lot :D

I'd love to shout "you're a f*ckin dumb puppet" at Tony Blair :)

[Ĉħé_Ĝűĕ]

Im blatently going!

[Ĉħé_Ĝűĕ]

Originally posted by [email protected] 6 2005, 09:15 PM
Becuase there is a big demo going in London. This means we can get some revolutionary activities done, becuase of the big distraction. Hmm but what to do????


Any1 going to organize a meet-up b4 it starts or somethin?

[YKTMX]

I'll be going!


Yet another SWP/RESPECT walk through central London being nice to the police and waving placards.

Repetition is boring.


Maybe, but it doesn't hold a candle to you.

[h&s]

Originally posted by [email protected] 6 2005, 09:15 PM
*Try to turn the protests into a Riot??
Please, don't be stupid. By all means do something to the cops, but don't do anything that would lead to the rest of the march getting in trouble - a demonstration like this one is just not the right place.
(I know you might be being sarcastic, but we can't have anything on this site that would get us in trouble)

[YKTMX]

By all means do something to the cops, but don't do anything that would lead to the rest of the march getting in trouble

Yes, because we all know how "careful" the cops are when "retaliating" don't we.

Try that.

[The Feral Underclass]

Originally posted by [email protected] 6 2005, 09:20 PM
Walking peacefully through the streets won't obviously topple capitalism by itself. However it is a good way to demonstrate the levels of support/oppostion to various ideas/policies.
How many times are we supposed to do that?

[The Feral Underclass]

Originally posted by [email protected] 7 2005, 03:36 PM

Yet another SWP/RESPECT walk through central London being nice to the police and waving placards.

Repetition is boring.


Maybe, but it doesn't hold a candle to you.
What was the point of this?

[Ĉħé_Ĝűĕ]

Originally posted by The Anarchist [email protected] 31 2005, 04:20 PM


I encourage people to go to London but to think of other ways to resist.
What kinda things would you suggest TAT?

[The Feral Underclass]

Originally posted by h&[email protected] 7 2005, 03:51 PM
Please, don't be stupid. By all means do something to the cops, but don't do anything that would lead to the rest of the march getting in trouble
God forbid that we "get in trouble" with the police. :o


a demonstration like this one is just not the right place.

Says who? Demonstrations like this are perfect opportunities to create mass resistance.

Although muppets in and around the SWP/RESPECT coalition maintain this liberal mentality of marching with placards and filing nicely past Whitehall, while at the same time climbing into bed with a reactionary religious institution like the Muslim Council of Britain does not mean that we should follow them.

Our objective now is to be creating as much offence and disturbance towards those companies/people who are profiting and organising this war as is humanly possible.

[The Feral Underclass]

Originally posted by Ĉħé_Ĝűĕ+Feb 7 2005, 04:31 PM--> (Ĉħé_Ĝűĕ @ Feb 7 2005, 04:31 PM)
The Anarchist [email protected] 31 2005, 04:20 PM


I encourage people to go to London but to think of other ways to resist.
What kinda things would you suggest TAT? [/b]
On an internet message board: Not very much.

[Donnie]

Im bringing a few paint cans with me if you get me? Spray a bit a Class War on stuff. teheheheheh

[prettyred]

god 'Donnie' and 'the anarchist tension', im with u comrades, im takin bricks.

[prettyred]

god you should see the hippy-fests down here with the swp/war coalition. God , pussy foots

[YKTMX]

:lol: Look at all the class "warriors". Ooo, spray paints, bricks, that'll really get the enemy running.


You're all fucking pathetic.

[prettyred]

pathetic?, pathetic is waving peices of card, how do expect revolution to happen?

[YKTMX]

It's not a "revolutionary" demonstration. It's a protest against the war.

And also, the "revolution" has nothing whatsoever to do with anarchist bollocks like the stuff proposed.

[prettyred]

im not an anarchist

its a display of the counter culture, why the hell not stir up something.

[YKTMX]

1. Because it pointless/counter productive.

2. The media attention invariably focuses on "violence". So, if we keep the violence to a minimum, they are more likely to talk about the issues.

3. It alienates people who aren't yet committed activists.

[prettyred]

1. i wouldnt call walking down the street with a peice of card productive.
2. The media are always poking holes in the left, this wouldnt be the first time leftists use so called - 'violence' productively. The issues need adressing.
3. Alienation? people are afraid to use force, wake up, the government dont care about pussy foots with placards anymore.

[The Feral Underclass]

Originally posted by [email protected] 10 2005, 05:58 PM
:lol: Look at all the class "warriors". Ooo, spray paints, bricks, that'll really get the enemy running.
You are trying to compare these actions with class actions when no one ever tried to claim they were.


You're all fucking pathetic.

And you're incapable of having patience with people.


It's not a "revolutionary" demonstration. It's a protest against the war.

Which has the the purpose of what?


1. Because it pointless/counter productive.

What this translates to is "If we can't recruit people then there isn't any use in doing it."


2. The media attention invariably focuses on "violence".

Since when do they need excuses?


if we keep the violence to a minimum, they are more likely to talk about the issues.

We are talking about the bourgeois media here. Whether or not they "talk about the issues" they are going to be one sided and biased. Invariably.


3. It alienates people who aren't yet committed activists.

Possibly, possibly not. You don't know that.

[Ĉħé_Ĝűĕ]

Right wouldnt it be a good idea for all of you that are going to meet up just before and go together? rather then in our own little groups?! Make more of an impact if we work as a team eh??

[Ele'ill]

Waving a card on a stick, with 30,000 other people with cards and sticks will do much more than nine teens wearing masks throwing a brick and running like hell from police.


1. i wouldnt call walking down the street with a peice of card productive.
2. The media are always poking holes in the left, this wouldnt be the first time leftists use so called - 'violence' productively. The issues need adressing.
3. Alienation? people are afraid to use force, wake up, the government dont care about pussy foots with placards anymore.


haha I am sure that the right wing media will finally surrender their misinformation campaigns because YOU became interested in politics and decided to use violence. How original, why didn't somebody think of this tactic before :rolleyes:
So by using violent force against a violent government you are saying that violence is ok as long as it benefits what YOU want. You might as well declare yourself a capitalist and join the marines.
P.S. violence at an antiwar demonstration is fucking absurd. Don't do it. Thanks.

[The Feral Underclass]

Originally posted by [email protected] 13 2005, 04:57 PM
Waving a card on a stick, with 30,000 other people with cards and sticks
What will it achieve?


haha I am sure that the right wing media will finally surrender their misinformation campaigns because YOU became interested in politics and decided to use violence.

That's not what he's saying.


So by using violent force against a violent government you are saying that violence is ok as long as it benefits what YOU want.

A bunch of disaffected teenagers spraying 'Class War' on a wall does not constitute violence.

It isn't a question of using violence. it’s a question of using direct action methods to highlight certain issues. Occupying buildings and hanging banners from them, or staging a sit in at a army career's office is a direct action method against an occupation and it serves to create [more] defiance than walking around with placards.

Resisting capitalism and it's domination requires people to resist it.


P.S. violence at an antiwar demonstration is fucking absurd. Don't do it. Thanks.

It isn't an anti-war demonstration. It is an anti-occupation demonstration organised by the SWP/RESPECT with co-operation with a homophobic, sexist, anti-abortion religious organisation: The Muslim Council of Britain...:blink:

Let us assume that 100,000 people attend the March. Imagine what would happen if these 100,000 people staged a sit down outside the Houses of Parliament, or at the Ministry of Defence, or organised themselves like in Paris in 1968. Maybe once they saw we were a threat, maybe then they'd listen.

I for one am sick and tired of symbolism!

[Ele'ill]

I am all for non-violent direct action. I thought my post was over critical as well however my objective for when I post on this forum is not to repeat things over again, and agree with people. I learn from challenging ideas and then learning from the response. (in reguards to all of my posts) You ask what it will achieve. My point wasn't as much what 30,000 sign wavers can do, but how much more they can do in comparison to the several people that become violent. I am however sick of new symbolism. Symbols should be looked back apon, not intentionally created for the sake of it's being.

[h&s]

Originally posted by The Anarchist [email protected] 13 2005, 04:16 PM
A bunch of disaffected teenagers spraying 'Class War' on a wall does not constitute violence.

It isn't a question of using violence. it’s a question of using direct action methods to highlight certain issues. Occupying buildings and hanging banners from them, or staging a sit in at a army career's office is a direct action method against an occupation and it serves to create [more] defiance than walking around with placards.

Resisting capitalism and it's domination requires people to resist it.


P.S. violence at an antiwar demonstration is fucking absurd. Don't do it. Thanks.

It isn't an anti-war demonstration. It is an anti-occupation demonstration organised by the SWP/RESPECT with co-operation with a homophobic, sexist, anti-abortion religious organisation: The Muslim Council of Britain...:blink:

Let us assume that 100,000 people attend the March. Imagine what would happen if these 100,000 people staged a sit down outside the Houses of Parliament, or at the Ministry of Defence, or organised themselves like in Paris in 1968. Maybe once they saw we were a threat, maybe then they'd listen.

I for one am sick and tired of symbolism!
Thats more like it! Whilst I don't actually oppose the stupid violence that some people want to use, I wouldn't partake in it - this I would. If you do want to use a little bit of violence though, I'd love to see someone using mixing fireworks and government buildings in a similar way to the anti Bush Italian anarchists last year. ;)
Somehow though, I doubt that we'll get 100,000.

[Guest_chebol]

TAT wrote:
"And you're incapable of having patience with people."

Then he had the gall to write:
"I for one am sick and tired of symbolism! "

And, just how, do you suppose, we are to get these vast masses of people activated to take part in revolutionary activity? Post them all a brick with the message "Bring to Soho- Mar 19"?

Get real.

TAT again:
"It isn't an anti-war demonstration. It is an anti-occupation demonstration organised by the SWP/RESPECT with co-operation with a homophobic, sexist, anti-abortion religious organisation: The Muslim Council of Britain.."

Not an anti-war demo? What, then it's FOR the war but AGAINST the occupation, right? And, without delving into the irrational pit which is anarchism, what is wrong with protesting alongside the Muslim Council of Britain AGAINST WAR AND OCCUPATION?

Answer: nothing. It's called tactics my dear deluded friend. If the SWP was stupid enough to join these people in an anti-abortion, homophobic, etc, group; THEN lets spit fire, but not when they're doing the right thing. (ie. when and for the reasons RESPECT proves the abject failure it is almost bound to for a marxist party, then we will have the grounds for agreement- but not on this).

Question: what's more powerful as a social force (which can lead to greater things)- 100,000 antiwar activists carrying cards on sticks, the majority of whom do not have class politics, but are lead by class-conscious activists; or a dozen self-righteous blokes with bricks?

Answers on a postcard please.

[The Feral Underclass]

Originally posted by [email protected] 14 2005, 01:33 PM
TAT wrote:
"And you're incapable of having patience with people."

Then he had the gall to write:
"I for one am sick and tired of symbolism! "
I don't know about you, but i've been on enough anti-war demonstrations to get bored of symbolism. I think I have asserted my patience enough in that respect.


And, just how, do you suppose, we are to get these vast masses of people activated to take part in revolutionary activity?

Usually things like that happen spontanously, but in case that wasn't to happen I'm sure we could think of something, I mean we do want a revolution after all, so we need the practice.


TAT again:
"It isn't an anti-war demonstration. It is an anti-occupation demonstration organised by the SWP/RESPECT with co-operation with a homophobic, sexist, anti-abortion religious organisation: The Muslim Council of Britain.."

Not an anti-war demo? What, then it's FOR the war but AGAINST the occupation, right?

No. Actually, there isn't a war going on. There is an occupational force oppressing the people it's occupying.


what is wrong with protesting alongside the Muslim Council of Britain AGAINST WAR AND OCCUPATION?

Homophobic, sexist, anti-abortionist, religious organisation.


Question: what's more powerful as a social force (which can lead to greater things)- 100,000 antiwar activists carrying cards on sticks, the majority of whom do not have class politics, but are lead by class-conscious activists; or a dozen self-righteous blokes with bricks?

100,000 antiwar activists. But I was never suggesting that we throw bricks at anyone.

[Ele'ill]

What about 100,000 anti war activists with signs, sticks AND bricks and they throw the signs instead of the bricks. They instead make their own bridge with the bricks and sticks to detour around the police and get close to whatever it is that they desire to get closer to <_<

[chebol]

TAT:
"I don&#39;t know about you, but i&#39;ve been on enough anti-war demonstrations to get bored of symbolism. I think I have asserted my patience enough in that respect."

I&#39;ve been on plenty of demos- hell, I started way back when I was four, but that&#39;s not the point. There&#39;s a problem with your statement "I have asserted my patience enough". It is not YOUR patience alone that is being tried- it is that of the vast majority of humanity. I don&#39;t particularly like simply marching up and down the road then going home- but at the moment it&#39;s the most startegically useful thing to do. It&#39;s not about me, it&#39;s about the revolutionary movement as a whole, and what benefits it. If you can demonsrate to me that the current level of politicial understanding in the working-class population justifies an escalation of the struggle to the detriment of large-scale mass-mobilisations (which ought to be used to build that consciousness), then I&#39;m with you comrade- but you can&#39;t demonstrate it, because it&#39;s simply not true. We have a long way to go yet. It&#39;s frustrating, I know, but there are no shortcuts (bricks or no).

And, as tempting as it may seem to pack it away in the corner of activist ease- these mobilisations don&#39;t take place entirely "spontaneously"- if they did, there would be no politics involved, and they would go nowhere (it has happened before and will again). It takes constant, patient, frustrating yet rewarding work to build the basis for a class-conscious struggle, rather than simply a wet-liberal knee-jerk. Perhaps if instead of bagging out those who go on anti-war rallies you went along and tried to convince them of revolutionary politics you might find "something" to work with....

TAT:
"No. Actually, there isn&#39;t a war going on. There is an occupational force oppressing the people it&#39;s occupying."

Yes, actually, there is a war going on. There is an occupation force which is being fought by organised militant sections of the population. Some of these are nationalist, others are fundamentalist, and others yet appear to be fairly internationalist and secular. But to claim there is no war is to pretend like the US was welcmed into Iraq- ludicrous and accepting of US propaganda. The resistance has not ceased since the invasion. The iraqi people have been fighting the invaders- how is this not a war just because the US controls a few square kilometres n Baghdad and a bunch of TV channels????

TAT:
"Homophobic, sexist, anti-abortionist, religious organisation."

So what? I&#39;m not asking you to agree with their politics, I&#39;m asking you to use their influence and anti-war sentiment to help build a revolutionary, class-conscious, atheist understanding of the current global crisis. If every atheist revolutionary (who isn&#39;t considering selling out or retiring) could be convinced to come out for the revolution, once again, I&#39;m all for it, but more often than not we&#39;re working with people who aren&#39;t clear in their political views.

This is why it is important to be clear in ours. We should participate in broad antiwar rallies because we are ANTIWAR, not because we are pro-Islam, or pro-Hussein, or pro-softleftliberal. We must use the opportunity to reach the most active, progressive of these to convince them of a better alternative.

For the record, I am by no means against more direct action, when it serves the purpose of building the movement. And some of the rallies I have helped organise have been less than "pacifist-left lovefests" (Books Not Bombs Sydney 2003).

It&#39;s just important to view the situation with a more calculating eye.