Ask yourself why Cubans flock to the U.S.

[t_wolves_fan]

Wouldn't that tell you which system is superior?

[October Revolution]

Well no ofcourse not!

I don't know where you've got this from but to my knowledge Cubans are not "flocking" to the US. Some may leave yes and yes there are alot of Cuban immigrants in Miami but they may have left due to deportation or because they wish to follow the american dream because they do not know that it is unacheivable. It doesn't say anything about the system because alot of Cubans stay in their own country because the life they live they is good, atleast in contention with other 3rd world countries.

Also arn't you forgetting that many people leave the US every year to live in other countries yet you are not saying the american system is weak are you.

[redstar2000]

90 MILES AWAY -- Braving the high seas for "freedom"? (http://www.revolutionaryleft.com/index.php?showtopic=29117)

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/123.gif

[t_wolves_fan]

Originally posted by October [email protected] 31 2005, 12:52 PM
Well no ofcourse not!

I don't know where you've got this from but to my knowledge Cubans are not "flocking" to the US. Some may leave yes and yes there are alot of Cuban immigrants in Miami but they may have left due to deportation or because they wish to follow the american dream because they do not know that it is unacheivable. It doesn't say anything about the system because alot of Cubans stay in their own country because the life they live they is good, atleast in contention with other 3rd world countries.

Also arn't you forgetting that many people leave the US every year to live in other countries yet you are not saying the american system is weak are you.
1>How do you know that many Cubans in Miami are there because they were deported?

2>How do you know the American dream is unattainable for Cuban immigrants to the U.S.? Have you talked to them or surveyed them? With how many have you spoken personally?

3>Yes, of course many people leave the United States annually; the question is, do you know if more leave than arrive every year, or is it the other way around?

[Fidelbrand]

oh.... fuck the road to serfdom, it is one of those books for burning.

[Danielle]

There is a selected amont of opoulation in Cuba that flees for the US [I might add after they get their free education at University]. But it is a small number and there is going to be people who want to be superior and rich. Americans can't flock to Cuba anyway. I believe it is an incredibly hard country to access, particularly for Americans.

[t_wolves_fan]

There is a selected amont of opoulation in Cuba that flees for the US [I might add after they get their free education at University]. But it is a small number and there is going to be people who want to be superior and rich.

What is your evidence for this assertion?



Americans can't flock to Cuba anyway. I believe it is an incredibly hard country to access, particularly for Americans.


I believe that if impoverished Cubans are capable of paddling rubber rafts or dilapidated old boats the 90 miles to Florida, then Americans are capable of the same.

Also an American simply needs to fly through Canada or Mexico to get to Cuba. Plenty do it all the time, yet they keep coming back for some strange reason.

[t_wolves_fan]

Two more questions, which are related:

1>If Cuba is a paradise community where everything is free, how could such a system create so many hundreds of thousands of criminals who need to be deported?

2>Second, if all needs and wants are taken care of in Cuba, why would so many hundreds of thousands turn to crime or risk life and limb for material greed in the U.S.?

and a third:

3>If we moved to global socialism, what would we do with the resultant billions of criminals and materialistic people who want to opt out of paradise?

[Commie Girl]

Originally posted by [email protected] 31 2005, 11:10 AM
Two more questions, which are related:

1>If Cuba is a paradise community where everything is free, how could such a system create so many thousands of criminals who need to be deported?

2>Second, if all needs and wants are taken care of in Cuba, why would so many thousands turn to crime or risk life and limb for material greed in Cuba?
1) Cuba is not a community, it is a sovereign country!

2) your information is lacking, bud. Have you been to Cuba? I have and so have many others on this board. They are not impverished, not even close, they have one of the best health care systems in the world, much higher than the U$, free education up to PhD, one of the lowest infant mortality rates in the world, and have eliminated illetracy.

Get some facts, read a book, then reply!

[t_wolves_fan]

Originally posted by Commie Girl+Jan 31 2005, 05:18 PM--> (Commie Girl @ Jan 31 2005, 05:18 PM)
t_wo[email protected] 31 2005, 11:10 AM
Two more questions, which are related:

1>If Cuba is a paradise community where everything is free, how could such a system create so many thousands of criminals who need to be deported?

2>Second, if all needs and wants are taken care of in Cuba, why would so many thousands turn to crime or risk life and limb for material greed in Cuba?
1) Cuba is not a community, it is a sovereign country!

2) your information is lacking, bud. Have you been to Cuba? I have and so have many others on this board. They are not impverished, not even close, they have one of the best health care systems in the world, much higher than the U$, free education up to PhD, one of the lowest infant mortality rates in the world, and have eliminated illetracy.

Get some facts, read a book, then reply! [/b]
Thank you for correcting my impression that it is impoverished, but my questions still stand.

Since you know so much about Cuba, it should not be a problem to answer them?

[Professor Moneybags]

Originally posted by [email protected] 31 2005, 04:14 PM
oh.... fuck the road to serfdom, it is one of those books for burning.
Seigh heil !

It's truth content is too high, no doubt.

[The Garbage Disposal Unit]

Cuba is a third world country, its economic development handicapped by American sanctions. While Cuba's standards of living (Life expectancy, literacy rate, etc.) are unusually igh for a third-world nation, it's a fact that some people would rather kick back in the first world. The only thing this shows, vis-a-vis their contrasting systems, is that America is more skilled at appropriating massive ammounts of wealth. Woopee! A higher body count!

[October Revolution]

Originally posted by [email protected] 31 2005, 01:00 PM

1>How do you know that many Cubans in Miami are there because they were deported?

2>How do you know the American dream is unattainable for Cuban immigrants to the U.S.? Have you talked to them or surveyed them? With how many have you spoken personally?

3>Yes, of course many people leave the United States annually; the question is, do you know if more leave than arrive every year, or is it the other way around?
Firstly i didn&#39;t say they were there because of deportation i said they may be there because of it. <_<

Secondly i would say that the "american dream" is unnatainable for most of the country never mind the cubans who would probally live in as much poverty as they did back in their home land. There really arn&#39;t that many employment oppertunities for migrants and without a job you can&#39;t get money and so in American you can&#39;t get any kind of high standard of living.

Thirdly your point was that many people leave cuba i was just contrasting it to america the actual amount that leaves the US has nothing to do with this debate.

I agree with Virgin Molotov Cocktail totally the fact that people are leaving Cuba shows nothing as to the state of the country it&#39;s more to do with where people wish to live the 3rd or 1st world.

[themanwhodoesnotexist]

PEACE
the USA is raping and exploiting every non white country you can think of.........the USA is destroying all non white countries which is making the USA richer and raising the standard of living.......so......the USA does have a high standard of living....thats the main reason people will come here.......
the USA has been trying to destroy Cuba and Castro for a while now......
you are basing you whole arguement on something that is basically human nature......people will flock to the RULER regardless if the RULER is righteous or not.....

[Pedro Alonso Lopez]

Cuba is alright. I mean you either choose some real freedom (Cuba) or you choose soft fascism like you have in the U.S.

I do believe it is more a state of mind, most U.S. citizens seem to face insurmountable odds in overcoming their desire for commodities.

[RedComrade]

There is no point in denying it comrades, some people in Cuba do choose to leave their country and come to our own haven of capitalism and freedom. But what all of us need to ask ourselves is this: how many cubans, compared to dominicans and hatians- mexicans and guatemalans etc. choose to come here? I would wager that proporionately the number is much smaller than all those other capitalist countries. The facts are the U.S. has a higher standard of living- not because capitalism is better than communism- but because the U.S. is a large industrialized first world nation. Cuba is actually the best third world country in the Caribbean, proportionately I am confident that fewer Cubans immigrate to the United States then their Caribbean brothers from capitalist Carribean countries. This is because for the third world socialism is a more viable alternative. Because a tiny latin american country is not as powerful or advanced as a giant industrial neighbor doesnt mean shit. It certainly doesnt mean that every Cuban leaving for the U.S. is doing so because they are fleeing the terrible living conditions or unbearable tyranny of communist Cuba, not by a long shot...

[The Garbage Disposal Unit]

. . . come to our own haven of capitalism and freedom . . .

As I mentioned in my last post, I don&#39;t think they come for the capitalism, I think they come because it&#39;s the nearest first-world country. It&#39;s kind of a crucial distinction.

[t_wolves_fan]

Originally posted by Virgin Molotov [email protected] 31 2005, 06:33 PM
Cuba is a third world country, its economic development handicapped by American sanctions. While Cuba&#39;s standards of living (Life expectancy, literacy rate, etc.) are unusually igh for a third-world nation, it&#39;s a fact that some people would rather kick back in the first world. The only thing this shows, vis-a-vis their contrasting systems, is that America is more skilled at appropriating massive ammounts of wealth. Woopee&#33; A higher body count&#33;
And you know this because you&#39;ve talked to Cuban-American immigrants?

[t_wolves_fan]

Firstly i didn&#39;t say they were there because of deportation i said they may be there because of it. <_<

So you are backtracking on a statement you made for which you had no evidence. Good, that&#39;s one of the few examples of intellectual honesty I&#39;ve seen yet.


Secondly i would say that the "american dream" is unnatainable for most of the country never mind the cubans who would probally live in as much poverty as they did back in their home land. There really arn&#39;t that many employment oppertunities for migrants and without a job you can&#39;t get money and so in American you can&#39;t get any kind of high standard of living.

Since they must already know all of that, it begs the question even more: Why risk life and limb for a life of almost certain poverty when the system they are leaving is allegedly superior?


Thirdly your point was that many people leave cuba i was just contrasting it to america the actual amount that leaves the US has nothing to do with this debate.

Of course it does. You paint Cuba as a superior system to that of the United States. And yet thousands of people a year risk 90 miles of shark-infested water to leave Cuba and come here. Those who make it hate the present regime in Cuba and broke the law to keep a young child here.

On the other hand, I have yet to hear a report of anyone risking their life on a rubber raft to swim 90 miles through shark-infested water to leave what you claim is a god-awful, oppressive system for Cuba.

You can ignore that fact all you want, but it would seem to suggest that something about the American system is in fact superior.

As they say, 50 million Elvis fans can&#39;t be wrong.


I agree with Virgin Molotov Cocktail totally the fact that people are leaving Cuba shows nothing as to the state of the country it&#39;s more to do with where people wish to live the 3rd or 1st world.

But as I just said, they have to know through correspondence with their families in Florida and from American media that they are destined for a third-world life in a first-world country.

So, AGAIN, WHY DO THEY DO IT?

[redstar2000]

Originally posted by t_wolves_fan
As they say, 50 million Elvis fans can&#39;t be wrong.

That tone-deaf, semi-literate peckerwood? :o

Don&#39;t you know they all voted for Bush?

Oh, by the way, don&#39;t forget all those tens of thousands of Mexicans who risk death in the desert to escape the horrors of "Mexican communism" and breath the "free air" of American capitalism.

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/123.gif

[t_wolves_fan]

Originally posted by [email protected] 1 2005, 01:04 AM
There is no point in denying it comrades, some people in Cuba do choose to leave their country and come to our own haven of capitalism and freedom. But what all of us need to ask ourselves is this: how many cubans, compared to dominicans and hatians- mexicans and guatemalans etc. choose to come here? I would wager that proporionately the number is much smaller than all those other capitalist countries. The facts are the U.S. has a higher standard of living- not because capitalism is better than communism- but because the U.S. is a large industrialized first world nation. Cuba is actually the best third world country in the Caribbean, proportionately I am confident that fewer Cubans immigrate to the United States then their Caribbean brothers from capitalist Carribean countries. This is because for the third world socialism is a more viable alternative. Because a tiny latin american country is not as powerful or advanced as a giant industrial neighbor doesnt mean shit. It certainly doesnt mean that every Cuban leaving for the U.S. is doing so because they are fleeing the terrible living conditions or unbearable tyranny of communist Cuba, not by a long shot...
Actually you are incorrect. Immigration from Cuba seems to be about the same, proportionately, as from most other Caribbean countries. The problem is, Cubans are not counted officially as illegal immigrants because until 1994 we accepted them as political refugees; today we generally allow them to stay if they make it to shore; and our official policy has been to accept 20,000 a year through normal means.

[Independants]

That tone-deaf, semi-literate peckerwood?

Owned?


Oh, by the way, don&#39;t forget all those tens of thousands of Mexicans who risk death in the desert to escape the horrors of "Mexican communism" and breath the "free air" of American capitalism.

Don&#39;t forget all the poor Canadians who RISKED THEIR LIFES floating across the Great Lakes to escape the Communist leaders in Canada. :unsure:

[t_wolves_fan]

Originally posted by redstar2000+Feb 1 2005, 04:36 PM--> (redstar2000 @ Feb 1 2005, 04:36 PM)
t_wolves_fan
As they say, 50 million Elvis fans can&#39;t be wrong.

That tone-deaf, semi-literate peckerwood? :o

Don&#39;t you know they all voted for Bush?

Oh, by the way, don&#39;t forget all those tens of thousands of Mexicans who risk death in the desert to escape the horrors of "Mexican communism" and breath the "free air" of American capitalism.

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/123.gif [/b]
Actually I doubt they all voted for Bush, considering they elected Democrat Alex Pinelas as mayor of Miami-Dade county several times.

I didn&#39;t forget the Mexicans of course, in fact I was just getting to the point where I was going to ask you to explain them, too.

:D

[t_wolves_fan]

Originally posted by [email protected] 31 2005, 09:51 PM
PEACE
the USA is raping and exploiting every non white country you can think of.........the USA is destroying all non white countries which is making the USA richer and raising the standard of living.......so......the USA does have a high standard of living....thats the main reason people will come here.......
the USA has been trying to destroy Cuba and Castro for a while now......
you are basing you whole arguement on something that is basically human nature......people will flock to the RULER regardless if the RULER is righteous or not.....
Wow, your rational and well-articulated argument has convinced me.

:D

[Commie Girl]

Source (http://www.canadiandimension.mb.ca/extra/d0505kk.htm)


In 1995 the U.S. government entered into an agreement with the Cuban government to resolve the crisis created by the rafter exodus of 1995. That agreement resulted in the enactment by the U.S. government of the Cuban Adjustment Act under which the United States was required to: 1) issue 20,000 visas to Cubans annually; 2) strictly punish hijackers; and 3) return any Cubans intercepted at sea. The U.S. is also a signatory to international treaties requiring the strict punishment of hijackers and the prompt return of hijacked airplanes to the originating country.

However, the Bush administration has refused to comply with these domestic and international laws. During the past six months it has issued only 505 visas to Cubans, creating pressure for illegal emigration. It has also refused to prosecute hijackers from Cuba or to return hijacked planes to Cuba. In fact, two recent hijackers have been treated like heroes in Miami and rewarded financially for their crimes. The Cuban government has appealed to the Bush administration repeatedly to enforce the law in order to avoid another emigration crisis. However, the Bush administration has arrogantly refused to do so, threatening instead to take unspecified action against Cuba if there is another rafter exodus to Florida. Clearly the Bush administration is deliberately trying to provoke a crisis with Cuba that can serve as a pretext for either a further tightening of the economic blockade or military action.

Faced with the increasingly hostile and warlike attitude of the Bush administration and its de facto encouragement of acts of terrorism against Cuba, the Cuban government saw no alternative to vigorously enforcing its laws and demonstrating to both the U.S. agents and the terrorists inspired by them that their behaviour will not be tolerated. Only those who apply a double standard to those countries that wish to defend their independence and sovereignty from the United States can find fault with Cuba on this issue.

[RedComrade]

Originally posted by Virgin Molotov [email protected] 1 2005, 09:53 AM

. . . come to our own haven of capitalism and freedom . . .

As I mentioned in my last post, I don&#39;t think they come for the capitalism, I think they come because it&#39;s the nearest first-world country. It&#39;s kind of a crucial distinction.
The whole haven of freedom thing was sarcasm. I later go on in the same post to identify the cuban exile&#39;s reasons for coming here as the same reason you have concluded on.

[Invader Zim]

Money.

How is that as an answer to your question?

[t_wolves_fan]

Originally posted by [email protected] 2 2005, 11:42 AM
Money.

How is that as an answer to your question?
But again, if Cuba has such a wonderful standard of living and so much freedom, why are these people fleeing in such large numbers in pursuit of something they do not need?

[t_wolves_fan]

Have any of you ever spoken with Cuban immigrants in the United States?