The Crimes of Stalin. A big lie of the cappies?

[Big Boss]

I know that there are a lot of Stalin threads out there. But the thing is that I have heard that the crimes of Stalin were real and that they happened. I have also heard that they didn't and they were lies made up by the capitalists to give him a bad name.

But, what pushed me to write this thread was my friend Yulya from Russia. She has lived there all her life and when I asked her about Stalin she told me that he was an extremely generous man who devouted himself to Russia. When I mentioned about what it is said about him she told me that people are lying and have always lied about his behavior and acts while in power. I'm confused. Please comrades, help me if you can! :(

[Encrypted Soldier]

Originally posted by Fervent [email protected] 30 2005, 02:28 PM
But, what pushed me to write this thread was my friend Yulya from Russia. She has lived there all her life and when I asked her about Stalin she told me that he was an extremely generous man who devouted himself to Russia. When I mentioned about what it is said about him she told me that people are lying and have always lied about his behavior and acts while in power. I'm confused. Please comrades, help me if you can! :(
First off, it's Julja, not Yulya, although Yulya is how you pronounce it.

Second, she is full of bullshit. Stalin is not a communist, he's a Stalinist. My family lived in Stalinistic Poland, and it wasn't to great. Actually, it was worse than before WWII, and even worse than under German Occupation (not Nazi occupation, German Occupation of Poland during WWI)!

Stalin was a murderer, he personally ordered the mass murder of thousands of Polish Officers who were helping the USSR win the war!!! This man was a mentally unstable, bloodthirsty, dictator!

[Wiesty]

as well as my family, i had great grandparents living under stalins rule in ukraine, in fact when the nazi's came to ukraine, lots of ukrainians joined the nazis, because it was a hell of a lot better then goin with stalin
The nazis were like ukraine's liberators

if u can watch a movie called Eternal Memory

[Bolshevist]

Originally posted by Fervent [email protected] 30 2005, 02:28 PM
I know that there are a lot of Stalin threads out there. But the thing is that I have heard that the crimes of Stalin were real and that they happened. I have also heard that they didn't and they were lies made up by the capitalists in otrther to give him a bad name.

But, what pushed me to write this thread was my friend Yulya from Russia. She has lived there all her life and when I asked her about Stalin she told me that he was an extremely generous man who devouted himself to Russia. When I mentioned about what it is said about him she told me that people are lying and have always lied about his behavior and acts while in power. I'm confused. Please comrades, help me if you can! :(
It is true, that most of what is said and written about Stalin is fabricated, such as the Ukraine famine, genocide, 'the great purge' etc...

I suggest you read this:

http://www.geocities.com/redcomrades/lies.html

and this:

http://www.plp.org/books/Stalin/book.html

[Roses in the Hospital]

Why do people find it so hard to accept that 'Uncle Joe' was actually a paranoid, mass murdering maniac?

[Bolshevist]

Because it is simply not true.

[RedLenin]

Even if Stalin was not a maniac mass-murderer, which I doubt, he was still a horrible dictator that allowed his people no freedom. The working class had no real power and the people were nothing but slaves to an elite buerocracy. Living under Stalin would have been far worse than living here in capitalist America. The USSR was not socialist, but state-capitalist where the state exploits you, and the working class has no power. Stalin was NOT a good guy.

[Pedro Alonso Lopez]

I think sometimes the left can buy into the capitalist propaghandhi they talk about hating so much all the time when it comes to the USSR, Joe was most likely a little mad, he was a dictator but that dosent mean you dismiss articles off hand or dont see for yourself, especially sources from the left just to see for yourself.

When it comes to Stalin always see who writes the books on the USSR, especially in a library. Usually ex-US foreign ministry types.

[American_Trotskyist]

Oh, of course, the absurd notion that Stalin never did anything wrong. The 70 million dead are the prof that cannot be suppressed by state capitalist propagandist., the fact that the USSR collapsed(the quasi-Stalinist just prolonged the enevitable) You are just like the NAZIs and their absurd notion that the Holocaust never happed. After Stalin died they said they didn't know or participate in the killings and famine, but they never said it didn't happen. How did such a huge drop happen in the population happen, did they just pack up and move to New York? What happened to all of his Generals who just disappeared? The same thing I guess. Why was Stalin so cooperative with the NAZIs, physically hide for 10 days when Hitler attacked and refused to launch a counter-attack? Why did he outlaw all opposing political parties and elections even when Lenin said the suppression of liberties and democracy were temporary? The Soviet Union was better off under Stalin then they are now, but that’s not saying a lot, they were better off under Stalin than they would be with a Capitalist dictator, but that isn't socialism and it can never be socialism, they slightly better off under the Bonapartists reign.

[Kaan]

Do you mind explaining where you got the number of 70 million? Did you just pull it out of the sky?

As for co-operating with nazis, I assume you mean the Nazi-Soviet non-agression pact. That was a purely tactical move, it bought time so the USSR could build its defenses for the inevitable nazi invasion.

[American_Trotskyist]

Dyadkin, I.G. (Demograficheskaya statistika neyestestvennoy smertnosti v SSSR 1918-1956 ): 56 to 62 million "unnatural deaths" for the USSR overall, with 34 to 49 million under Stalin. We must include that no more than 100,000 died at the Reds hands during the Civil War. Stalin's puges killed many, but not as many as his unscientific zig-zag approch to economics. My figure was off by 8 million, compare that to yours of 56-62 million. You are no socialist unless you ruthlessly anyalsis the situation as a Marxist, there are no unfortunate events in history, they all come from the class struggle and the ruling class. Stalin was no Marxist.

[Kaan]

Please don't mistake me comrade, I'm not saying Stalin didn't kill anyone, its a revolution, not a tea party. But I am all for "ruthlessly analyzing" the situation, your post didn't really tell me too much, Possibly a breakdown of how all these deaths occured and what the numbers were for each particular incident would be helpful. So far all I'm getting are some really high numbers and no real explanation or proof.

[American_Trotskyist]

Ok, well since this is a Soviet Statistic and they are known for cleaverly moving things around so things look better, I'll try. Unnatural deaths would be those of Starvation, muder and freezing, those that aren't natural. So most of those happened during the foolish "forced colectivazation". This was ill prepared for and lead to the famine. To add insult to injury the Russian people had very little food, barely enough to feed themselves, and Stalin sold huge amounts of it to the West to buy Industrial goods. So more people died in this faimine. The Puges when compared to the famine we not as bad in deaths, but considering the deaths were done through bullets not starvation it is still pritty satagering. Stalin feared a Military coup, a good indication of a decaying governement is when their have been so many quantitive problems they will lead to a coup, and he kill nearly all of the officers in the army. 3 of the 5 field marshell, most of the General staff, and an uncountible number of petty officers. Many people were kill for simply speaking poorly of Stalin. It got to the point where no one would stop clapping because they feared being shot for not showing the proper respect to Stalin. It was because of the thermador that lead to this Bonapartist repression.

[Kaan]

The deaths of the "forced collectivization" were not cause by Stalin's iron fist, but rather a class struggle between the Kulaks and the landless peasants. The Kulak class came into being as a result of the New Economic Policy started by Lenin which restored some capitalism to Russia and Stalin took the a progressive step by ending the NEP and beginning collectivization. The peasants were for the collectivization and obviously the Kulaks were not, which is what led to deaths of the time, along with the problem of certain epidemics that plagued the whole world. This class struggle was taken advantage of by Nazi opportunists as a tool against the USSR and once Nazi Germany was defeated the torch of misinformation was passed to the capitalists.
As for the purges, those numbers are greatly exaggerated, but I'm not really sure which exaggerated figure you subscribe to, as you haven't exactly made that clear.

By the time of his death, Stalin had created a socialist superpower second only to the United States, he doubled the life expectancy of his people and defeated fascism when the imperialists in the west would not, for that I uphold him, but I do recognize that a great number died, not because he was necessarily "evil" but because of the conditions which existed and erros that he made.

[Maksym]

Originally posted by [email protected] 30 2005, 11:22 PM
Dyadkin, I.G. (Demograficheskaya statistika neyestestvennoy smertnosti v SSSR 1918-1956 ): 56 to 62 million "unnatural deaths" for the USSR overall, with 34 to 49 million under Stalin. We must include that no more than 100,000 died at the Reds hands during the Civil War. Stalin's puges killed many, but not as many as his unscientific zig-zag approch to economics. My figure was off by 8 million, compare that to yours of 56-62 million. You are no socialist unless you ruthlessly anyalsis the situation as a Marxist, there are no unfortunate events in history, they all come from the class struggle and the ruling class. Stalin was no Marxist.
State archives paint a completely different picture then your absurd numbers.

Here is the official number of deaths in the gulags:

The mortality of the prisoners in the camps Of GULAG:

Year Average number of prisoners Died Percentage
1931 240.350 -------------------- 7283 3,03
1932 301.500 -------------------- 13267 4,40
1933 422.304 -------------------- 67297 15,94
1934 617.895 -------------------- 26295 4,26
1935 782.445 -------------------- 28328 3,62
1936 830.144 -------------------- 20595 2,48
1937 908.624 -------------------- 25376 2,79
1938 1.156.781 -------------------- 90546 7,83
1939 1.330.802 -------------------- 50502 3,79
1940 1.422.466 -------------------- 46665 3,28
1941 1.458.060 -------------------- 100997 6,93
1942 1.199.785 -------------------- 248877 20,74
1943 823.784 -------------------- 166967 20,27
1944 689.550 -------------------- 60948 8,84
1945 658.202 -------------------- 43848 6,66
1946 704.868 -------------------- 18154 2,58
1947 958.448 -------------------- 35668 3,72
1948 1.316.331 -------------------- 15739 1,20
1949 1.475.034 -------------------- 14703 1,00
1950 1.622.485 -------------------- 15587 0,96
1951 1.719.586 -------------------- 13806 0,80

http://www.thewalls.ru/truth/repress.htm#v5
28. V.N.Zemskov. GULAG (historico-sociologic aspect)// sociological studies. 1991, №'. Of s.yya-yshch; 1931-1940. - GARF, f.9yayya, op.y, d.yyshchshch, l.2; d.2"ya0, l.y, 5, 8, 14, 26, 38, 42, 48, 58, 96-110; 1949-1952. - Dugin A.N. The unknown GULAG: Documents and facts. M.: Science, 1999. S.yay, 43, 45, 49.

As we can see the most repressive years were during the war when SS were dieing. You are either a Nazi sympathizer or a fool.

Russia’s annual growth rate also shows how absurd your numbers are: Country --- Year --- Population --- Year --- Population --- Annual Growth Rate
England --- 1920 --- 43'718 --- 1960 --- 52'559 --- 0,46%
France --- 1920 --- 38'750 --- 1960 --- 45'684 --- 0,41%
Germany --- 1920 --- 61'794 --- 1960 --- 72'664 --- 0,41%
RE/USSR --- 1913 --- 159'153 --- 1959 --- 208'827 --- 0,60%

[Wiesty]

i dont think 70 million died, but 20 million tops
i had family members who had friends sent off to the gulags and shot, on the movie Eternal Memory, they went to a court yard and told a story how hundreds of ukrainians were rounded up and had grenades tossed on them. There were survivors of it so its true. And saying that the ukrainian genoiced did not happen was like saying the holocaust did not happen
http://hrw.org/iff-98/films98/eternal.htm

[bolshevik butcher]

Originally posted by [email protected] 1 2005, 12:39 AM
i dont think 70 million died, but 20 million tops
i had family members who had friends sent off to the gulags and shot, on the movie Eternal Memory, they went to a court yard and told a story how hundreds of ukrainians were rounded up and had grenades tossed on them. There were survivors of it so its true. And saying that the ukrainian genoiced did not happen was like saying the holocaust did not happen
http://hrw.org/iff-98/films98/eternal.htm
Similar story, my grandparents are ukranien, they only gotta way because tehy heard what was going on, they were german POWs who had fought on Staln's side. My grand father had to say he was polish to get passed immigration because of the stupid yalta agreement. 60 mill's actually a fairlyliberal figure, i've seen upto 100mill qoted from sources I respect. Anyway even if it was 20mill, that's hardly good.

[Maksym]

Similar story, my grandparents are ukranien, they only gotta way because tehy heard what was going on, they were german POWs who had fought on Staln's side. My grand father had to say he was polish to get passed immigration because of the stupid yalta agreement. 60 mill's actually a fairlyliberal figure, i've seen upto 100mill qoted from sources I respect. Anyway even if it was 20mill, that's hardly good.

Are you kidding? A liberal figure? The state archives have already proven how bogus your numbers are. Your ancestors were probably in the upper class that is why they left the USSR. This is why my grandfather left, since he owned land. My grandmother left since he married my grandfather. My grandmother was a peasant, all of her 4 sisters went back to the USSR after WW2. They opted for the USSR rather then America.

Can you provide any documents, letters or orders that the Ukrainian peasantry was deliberately starved by Moscow? It should not be hard since such a large-scale operation would have left millions of documents lying around.

[bolshevik butcher]

Originally posted by [email protected] 3 2005, 09:26 PM

Similar story, my grandparents are ukranien, they only gotta way because tehy heard what was going on, they were german POWs who had fought on Staln's side. My grand father had to say he was polish to get passed immigration because of the stupid yalta agreement. 60 mill's actually a fairlyliberal figure, i've seen upto 100mill qoted from sources I respect. Anyway even if it was 20mill, that's hardly good.

Are you kidding? A liberal figure? The state archives have already proven how bogus your numbers are. Your ancestors were probably in the upper class that is why they left the USSR. This is why my grandfather left, since he owned land. My grandmother left since he married my grandfather. My grandmother was a peasant, all of her 4 sisters went back to the USSR after WW2. They opted for the USSR rather then America.

Can you provide any documents, letters or orders that the Ukrainian peasantry was deliberately starved by Moscow? It should not be hard since such a large-scale operation would have left millions of documents lying around.
For fuck sake I know them personally, don't tell me about my fucking grandparents. They were poor working class people who lived and worked off the land. They didn't even have much of an education. My grnadfather thought in the paritsans on THE SIDE OF STALIN, before being taking prisoner by the austrians, then when he was on his way HOME he found out that he would have been shot and had tosay he was polish to get into the UK. State records yeah there gonna be reliable. Hoe would you like it if I tried to tell you about your fucking family.

[ComradeChris]

I've seen an article (and I wish I could remember where it was; it's pissing me off, I've been looking for it for a week) showed a decrease of ~20 million people under Stalin's reign. I thought industrialized populations were supposed to exceed death rate by birth rate. So given that assumption more than 20 million people would have died under Stalin (of unnatural causes).

[Lamanov]

I dont think that the number of deaths where Stalin is responsible have a small importance for the workers movement today and for the history in general, but its essential and pramarily important to understand what Stalin represents in the ideological and practical sense for the proletariat and marxism.
To be more exact, its important to recognise the negative effect of stalinist ideology caused upon the movement. Its more important for the burgoise to portray Stalin as 'communist' and real 'marxist', and then pin the victim numbers on to that, thus discredit every revolutionary ideology and show it as bloddy.

Marxists today have to fight and defend the vadility of marxism, put asside the endless beefs over 'how much people did Stalin kill' and recognise the essential differences between stalinism and marxism, and to show them as the opposing ideologies.

[Wiesty]

anyone who questions the Great Terror deserves to be shot.

How does one countries population decrease by millions in a year?

And the other night i saw another video called between hitler and staline which tells about ukraines losses during before world war two and to 1956.
Their losses were greater than all eurpoean countries put together. This was because of Stalins slave labor, the gulags, mass executions, starvation etc. and because of ukraine being a big war zone, with the russians attacking from the east and the germans from the west, the ukraine was a big war zone.
on the video they said that ukraine did not know the war had ended till 1956 because nothing had changed.

If you want some proof of the ukrainian losses, get your lazy ass of the computer and by yourself a ticket to ukraine, and then take a walk down to the bukovenian forests, there u will find just 1 out of several mass grave sites.

Why do people dissagree that this event happened, its not like people dissagree with the holocaust, so why is this event questioned

[Wiesty]

heres some links to help u understand a bit better (fucking stalintis)

http://www.ukraine.be/famin/famine_en.html

http://www.ukar.org/famine.html

http://www.infoukes.com/history/famine/

[Hiero]

heres some links to help u understand a bit better (fucking stalintis)


We too can post links but you dont even look at them.

[Wiesty]

thats because saying the genocide never happened is absurd

[Maksym]

Originally posted by Clenched Fist+Feb 4 2005, 09:45 PM--> (Clenched Fist @ Feb 4 2005, 09:45 PM)
[email protected] 3 2005, 09:26 PM

Similar story, my grandparents are ukranien, they only gotta way because tehy heard what was going on, they were german POWs who had fought on Staln's side. My grand father had to say he was polish to get passed immigration because of the stupid yalta agreement. 60 mill's actually a fairlyliberal figure, i've seen upto 100mill qoted from sources I respect. Anyway even if it was 20mill, that's hardly good.

Are you kidding? A liberal figure? The state archives have already proven how bogus your numbers are. Your ancestors were probably in the upper class that is why they left the USSR. This is why my grandfather left, since he owned land. My grandmother left since he married my grandfather. My grandmother was a peasant, all of her 4 sisters went back to the USSR after WW2. They opted for the USSR rather then America.

Can you provide any documents, letters or orders that the Ukrainian peasantry was deliberately starved by Moscow? It should not be hard since such a large-scale operation would have left millions of documents lying around.
For fuck sake I know them personally, don't tell me about my fucking grandparents. They were poor working class people who lived and worked off the land. They didn't even have much of an education. My grnadfather thought in the paritsans on THE SIDE OF STALIN, before being taking prisoner by the austrians, then when he was on his way HOME he found out that he would have been shot and had tosay he was polish to get into the UK. State records yeah there gonna be reliable. Hoe would you like it if I tried to tell you about your fucking family. [/b]
To tell you bluntly, I do not believe your story. Partisans were not taken prisoner and brought to Germany; they were killed on the spot. Either your story is incorrect, you are telling a lie or your grandfather was a collaborator. All my grandmothers’ sisters returned to the USSR after WW2 without any problems.

State archives are the superlative source. You do not believe the USSR kept track of its yearly prison population? What hard documents and sources do your Western historians use? Absolutely none.

Wiesty, your website is glorifying the UPA (Ukrainian Fascists). The UPA survivors who fled to the West are the ones who spread propaganda about the famine and purges. Conquest even put an account from a convicted Ukrainian Fascists, Mykola Lebed, in his book. Here is a brief introduction to Mykola Lebed’s activities during WW2: “Lebed had been security chief in L'viv during the Nazi occupation and presided over the terrible persecutions of the Jews which took place in 1942. In 1949 the CIA took Lebed off to the United States where he worked as a source of disinformation.” The UPA also killed 100 000 Poles, cleansed 250 000 Poles from Galicia and helped the Nazi’s murder the Jews. These are your sources fool.

http://www.infoukes.com/upa/
http://www.infoukes.com/galiciadivision/

The rich peasantry orchestrated the Ukrainian famine. It was a desperate attempt to halt the collectivization of agriculture, which was freeing the Ukrainian nation from serfdom

[bolshevik butcher]

Originally posted by maksym+Feb 5 2005, 04:56 AM--> (maksym @ Feb 5 2005, 04:56 AM)
Originally posted by Clenched [email protected] 4 2005, 09:45 PM

[email protected] 3 2005, 09:26 PM

Similar story, my grandparents are ukranien, they only gotta way because tehy heard what was going on, they were german POWs who had fought on Staln's side. My grand father had to say he was polish to get passed immigration because of the stupid yalta agreement. 60 mill's actually a fairlyliberal figure, i've seen upto 100mill qoted from sources I respect. Anyway even if it was 20mill, that's hardly good.

Are you kidding? A liberal figure? The state archives have already proven how bogus your numbers are. Your ancestors were probably in the upper class that is why they left the USSR. This is why my grandfather left, since he owned land. My grandmother left since he married my grandfather. My grandmother was a peasant, all of her 4 sisters went back to the USSR after WW2. They opted for the USSR rather then America.

Can you provide any documents, letters or orders that the Ukrainian peasantry was deliberately starved by Moscow? It should not be hard since such a large-scale operation would have left millions of documents lying around.
For fuck sake I know them personally, don't tell me about my fucking grandparents. They were poor working class people who lived and worked off the land. They didn't even have much of an education. My grnadfather thought in the paritsans on THE SIDE OF STALIN, before being taking prisoner by the austrians, then when he was on his way HOME he found out that he would have been shot and had tosay he was polish to get into the UK. State records yeah there gonna be reliable. Hoe would you like it if I tried to tell you about your fucking family.
To tell you bluntly, I do not believe your story. Partisans were not taken prisoner and brought to Germany; they were killed on the spot. Either your story is incorrect, you are telling a lie or your grandfather was a collaborator. All my grandmothers’ sisters returned to the USSR after WW2 without any problems.

State archives are the superlative source. You do not believe the USSR kept track of its yearly prison population? What hard documents and sources do your Western historians use? Absolutely none.

Wiesty, your website is glorifying the UPA (Ukrainian Fascists). The UPA survivors who fled to the West are the ones who spread propaganda about the famine and purges. Conquest even put an account from a convicted Ukrainian Fascists, Mykola Lebed, in his book. Here is a brief introduction to Mykola Lebed’s activities during WW2: “Lebed had been security chief in L'viv during the Nazi occupation and presided over the terrible persecutions of the Jews which took place in 1942. In 1949 the CIA took Lebed off to the United States where he worked as a source of disinformation.” The UPA also killed 100 000 Poles, cleansed 250 000 Poles from Galicia and helped the Nazi’s murder the Jews. These are your sources fool.

http://www.infoukes.com/upa/
http://www.infoukes.com/galiciadivision/

The rich peasantry orchestrated the Ukrainian famine. It was a desperate attempt to halt the collectivization of agriculture, which was freeing the Ukrainian nation from serfdom [/b]
What abut the year on year decreases in population? Anyway, he was an austrian pow, not a german ow, he was young and fit and so used as labour. Stalin was a brutal dictator why deny this? I don't blame people for running away from him. Who are you to judge my family? You fucking stalinist twat.

[ComradeChris]

Originally posted by [email protected] 4 2005, 11:56 PM

heres some links to help u understand a bit better (fucking stalintis)


We too can post links but you dont even look at them.
You just say anything that disagrees with you is wrong anyway.

[Maksym]

Why would the population decrease? Because a famine happened in Ukraine during 1933. Nobody is denying the fact. What I’m refuting is that it was a man-made by Moscow and the USSR.

One of the articles implied that 10 million Ukrainians died because of the famine since the population decreased to 28 million. About 10 million Ukrainians live in Russia and 1 million live in Kazakhstan today. After the Kulaks sabotaged the Ukrainian SSR economy, many emigrated from Ukraine. For example my family moved to Rostov, in the Russian SSR. They would not be counted apart as Ukraine’s population, but the article is implying they were starved to death.

[ComradeChris]

Originally posted by [email protected] 5 2005, 05:07 PM
Why would the population decrease? Because a famine happened in Ukraine during 1933. Nobody is denying the fact. What I’m refuting is that it was a man-made by Moscow and the USSR.

One of the articles implied that 10 million Ukrainians died because of the famine since the population decreased to 28 million. About 10 million Ukrainians live in Russia and 1 million live in Kazakhstan today. After the Kulaks sabotaged the Ukrainian SSR economy, many emigrated from Ukraine. For example my family moved to Rostov, in the Russian SSR. They would not be counted apart as Ukraine’s population, but the article is implying they were starved to death.
Then it was simply bad government. Millions were starving while Stalin was living luxuriously. Doesn't sound like a government looking out for the people's interests. That's practically a part of Fascism. The government is the most important thing in the society.

[Maksym]

Originally posted by ComradeChris+Feb 5 2005, 09:16 PM--> (ComradeChris @ Feb 5 2005, 09:16 PM)
[email protected] 5 2005, 05:07 PM
Why would the population decrease? Because a famine happened in Ukraine during 1933. Nobody is denying the fact. What I’m refuting is that it was a man-made by Moscow and the USSR.

One of the articles implied that 10 million Ukrainians died because of the famine since the population decreased to 28 million. About 10 million Ukrainians live in Russia and 1 million live in Kazakhstan today. After the Kulaks sabotaged the Ukrainian SSR economy, many emigrated from Ukraine. For example my family moved to Rostov, in the Russian SSR. They would not be counted apart as Ukraine’s population, but the article is implying they were starved to death.
Then it was simply bad government. Millions were starving while Stalin was living luxuriously. Doesn't sound like a government looking out for the people's interests. That's practically a part of Fascism. The government is the most important thing in the society. [/b]
Stalin had a salary of 500 rubles a month, about 20 UK pounds.

"One goes up to the first floor, where white curtains hang over three of the windows. These three windows are Stalin's home. In the tiny hall a long military cloak hangs on a peg beneath a cap. In addition to this hall there are three bedrooms and a dining-room. The bedrooms are as simply furnished as those of a respectable, second-class hotel.... The eldest son, Jasheka, sleeps at night in the dining room, on a divan which is converted into a bed; the younger sleeps in a tiny recess, a sort of alcove opening out of it..."

Sounds like luxury to me. How was it bad management when it was class warfare?

[Wiesty]

Originally posted by maksym+Feb 5 2005, 03:39 PM--> (maksym @ Feb 5 2005, 03:39 PM)
Originally posted by [email protected] 5 2005, 09:16 PM

[email protected] 5 2005, 05:07 PM
Why would the population decrease? Because a famine happened in Ukraine during 1933. Nobody is denying the fact. What I’m refuting is that it was a man-made by Moscow and the USSR.

One of the articles implied that 10 million Ukrainians died because of the famine since the population decreased to 28 million. About 10 million Ukrainians live in Russia and 1 million live in Kazakhstan today. After the Kulaks sabotaged the Ukrainian SSR economy, many emigrated from Ukraine. For example my family moved to Rostov, in the Russian SSR. They would not be counted apart as Ukraine’s population, but the article is implying they were starved to death.
Then it was simply bad government. Millions were starving while Stalin was living luxuriously. Doesn't sound like a government looking out for the people's interests. That's practically a part of Fascism. The government is the most important thing in the society.
Stalin had a salary of 500 rubles a month, about 20 UK pounds.

"One goes up to the first floor, where white curtains hang over three of the windows. These three windows are Stalin's home. In the tiny hall a long military cloak hangs on a peg beneath a cap. In addition to this hall there are three bedrooms and a dining-room. The bedrooms are as simply furnished as those of a respectable, second-class hotel.... The eldest son, Jasheka, sleeps at night in the dining room, on a divan which is converted into a bed; the younger sleeps in a tiny recess, a sort of alcove opening out of it..."

Sounds like luxury to me. How was it bad management when it was class warfare? [/b]
proof please?
and even if his salary was 500 rubels, everything was provided for him

[ComradeChris]

Originally posted by maksym+Feb 5 2005, 05:39 PM--> (maksym @ Feb 5 2005, 05:39 PM)
Originally posted by [email protected] 5 2005, 09:16 PM

[email protected] 5 2005, 05:07 PM
Why would the population decrease? Because a famine happened in Ukraine during 1933. Nobody is denying the fact. What I’m refuting is that it was a man-made by Moscow and the USSR.

One of the articles implied that 10 million Ukrainians died because of the famine since the population decreased to 28 million. About 10 million Ukrainians live in Russia and 1 million live in Kazakhstan today. After the Kulaks sabotaged the Ukrainian SSR economy, many emigrated from Ukraine. For example my family moved to Rostov, in the Russian SSR. They would not be counted apart as Ukraine’s population, but the article is implying they were starved to death.
Then it was simply bad government. Millions were starving while Stalin was living luxuriously. Doesn't sound like a government looking out for the people's interests. That's practically a part of Fascism. The government is the most important thing in the society.
Stalin had a salary of 500 rubles a month, about 20 UK pounds.

"One goes up to the first floor, where white curtains hang over three of the windows. These three windows are Stalin's home. In the tiny hall a long military cloak hangs on a peg beneath a cap. In addition to this hall there are three bedrooms and a dining-room. The bedrooms are as simply furnished as those of a respectable, second-class hotel.... The eldest son, Jasheka, sleeps at night in the dining room, on a divan which is converted into a bed; the younger sleeps in a tiny recess, a sort of alcove opening out of it..."

Sounds like luxury to me. How was it bad management when it was class warfare? [/b]
He had ultimate control over everything being redistributed. He made sure he and his family (and some friends) received greater portions. Money is fairly irrelevent in a socialist society as everything is public access (for the most part) anyway. Sure maybe adding a little money on made some jobs more inticing however.

And what are you referring to bad management for? You said:

What I’m refuting is that it was a man-made by Moscow and the USSR.

It wasn't helped at all by Stalin's policies (in fact probably provoked by his treatment of agricultural workers). He could still afford his own comfort and stave of his death. How does that have anything to do with class warfare? It sounds more like he was interested in self-preservation...and he was an elite. So the classes were still there.

[American_Trotskyist]

Lets get one thing straight, there is no such thing as a personality cult in society. Every dictator or democract is representing a section of socierty. Stalin Represented the buerocracy that how risen from the lack of revolution in the west, the Thermador. So lets quit with the personality, unscientific BS and look at it with a marxist anyalsis.

[American_Trotskyist]

Stalin may have made little money, but the Perks of being a beurocrat were numerious, state cars, Dakas, flight all of which were secured by the officials.

[ComradeChris]

Originally posted by [email protected] 6 2005, 01:54 AM
Lets get one thing straight, there is no such thing as a personality cult in society. Every dictator or democract is representing a section of socierty. Stalin Represented the buerocracy that how risen from the lack of revolution in the west, the Thermador. So lets quit with the personality, unscientific BS and look at it with a marxist anyalsis.
What on Earth are you on about? How can you discuss this in Marxist terms? Where in Marxist-Lenin theory did it discuss putting people in slave-camps or killing their own party members? If you were a true Trotskyist you would be opposed to Stalin, and shouldn't be writing insignificant tripe to get this thread off-topic from letting people know what Stalin truly was.

And if it wasn't a personality cult why was Stalin's picture plastered everywhere?

[Hiero]

How does that have anything to do with class warfare?

Disregarding the whining and lies about Stalin bureaucracy, ill answer if you were asking about the economic plan put in place in the Ukraine

Class war between the peasants and the Kulaks. They started to collectivise the argriculture, to remove the private ownership of grain production and other farming. Which is apart of a socialist society

The kulaks didn't want this as they benefited from private farming, so they started to burn and hide grain.

It was clearly class war between Kulaks and Peasants.

If you dont support collectivisation then what do you support, the Kulaks?

[bolshevik butcher]

Stalin basiclly started his own class society, the workers a the bottom, the officials and party members in the middle, himself and the high ranking in the military in the middle.

[Kaan]

Stalin basiclly started his own class society, the workers a the bottom, the officials and party members in the middle, himself and the high ranking in the military in the middle.

You see the problem with making these kind of statements is... well, they mean nothing, because you've given no actual evidence for this.

[Maksym]

Hiero and Kaan, thank you for summing up my opinions.

Some quotes on Stalin and the cult of personality:

http://www.mltranslations.org/Britain/StalinBB.htm

[ComradeChris]

Originally posted by [email protected] 6 2005, 05:06 AM

How does that have anything to do with class warfare?

Disregarding the whining and lies about Stalin bureaucracy, ill answer if you were asking about the economic plan put in place in the Ukraine

Class war between the peasants and the Kulaks. They started to collectivise the argriculture, to remove the private ownership of grain production and other farming. Which is apart of a socialist society

The kulaks didn't want this as they benefited from private farming, so they started to burn and hide grain.

It was clearly class war between Kulaks and Peasants.

If you dont support collectivisation then what do you support, the Kulaks?
I've said on many occasions that I think the fundamentals of a society are agriculture, anything else is just lavishment. So, I think that answers your question in a round-about way.

And I'm referring the direct class warfare between Stalin and his own government. He made his government bureaucratic, which implies a hierarchy. He was having a class warfare (to supposedly eliminate classes; as socialism aims to do) yet implacing his own classes. Seems hypocritical. And people think Stalin didn't have his own ideology :rolleyes: .

[bolshevik butcher]

What about the fact that you couldn't get anywhere without joining the party, and that teh officials and high ranking in the military had a far better life style than the workers? STOP painting this rosie painting of the ussr, it isn't getting you anywhere. Even if all you say was true, what about the lack of democracy, i mean real elections by the way, not the one candidate "elections."