Entertainment and Media in Socialism

[Super Mario Conspiracy]

One thing I've been wondering about, and that actually concerns me, is what we entertainers and media-producers would do in socialism?

Firstly, how would we work? Entertainment isn't really something people really need... compared to food, water and medicine, for example. But in a sence, it is something people want to see and interact or read on their sparetime (depending on what form of entertainment it is).

Would we follow the famous quote of Karl Marx - that we can "jump" from one work to another? Would we only be working in our free-time?

Second - how would producers know what to produce? Should people "vote" for what kind of entertainment they would like to see more of (because they won't be looking at sales)?

It all takes time and planning, so making a movie, for example, in your sparetime would take very long, specially if it involves good stories - or much programming if it is in form of a computer game.

[NovelGentry]

One thing I've been wondering about, and that actually concerns me, is what we entertainers and media-producers would do in socialism?

Much of the same things you do now.


Would we follow the famous quote of Karl Marx - that we can "jump" from one work to another? Would we only be working in our free-time?

It's tough to think of what is considered "free time." You'd probably see a huge decrease in the necessary labor under socialism, something like a 2-3 hour work day sustaining the necessities AND luxury of life. This of course comes from increased amounts of workers and things of that nature. So the MAJORITY of your time would probably be free time. You may wish to go to school during your "free time." Maybe you want to educate yourself. Maybe you want to write music. Maybe you want to make movies. Do what you will. I see no problem with having workers in the "entertainment sector."


Second - how would producers know what to produce? Should people "vote" for what kind of entertainment they would like to see more of (because they won't be looking at sales)?

This seems like a weird question. Is the system not more artistic than this? I know there are a lot of movies that are strictly designed to be blockbusters... but the GOOD movies are always those that tend to stray away from thiose shallow attempts to make a lot of money.

[RedLenin]

I think there will be a place for entertainers and media is socialism/communism. After the needs are met the door will open up for luxuries and then things like musicians and media.

As far as people deciding what entertainment they want, they could just suggest it to the workers.

[Karl Marx's Camel]

As far as people deciding what entertainment they want, they could just suggest it to the workers.


What do you mean?


"The people" are the workers, are they not?

[RedLenin]

I meant that the people could suggest what they want to the MEDIA workers. The media workers could also decide what media they want. So the people who are not media workers would suggest what they want to them.

[Super Mario Conspiracy]

Maybe you want to educate yourself. Maybe you want to write music. Maybe you want to make movies. Do what you will. I see no problem with having workers in the "entertainment sector."

Okay. This was interesting, and off-topic too.

When is a person ready to work? I mean, we all need basic education, and when we are about 16/17 we can choose to continue studying or start working (at least here in Sweden). But the longer you study, the more types of work you can do.

For example, if I begin working at 16/17, I can only do basic and simple things, but as I study, more doors open - I can become a doctor, an austronaut or scientist (among many other things).

So - if I choose to become a doctor, I'll have to study anyhow - even in socialism. It may take time, but what do I do in the meantime? Do I go to school 2-3/4 hours a day and have the rest as sparetime? Do I have to work before I become what I wish to be?


This seems like a weird question. Is the system not more artistic than this? I know there are a lot of movies that are strictly designed to be blockbusters... but the GOOD movies are always those that tend to stray away from thiose shallow attempts to make a lot of money.

Yes, you are right.

[NovelGentry]

When is a person ready to work? I mean, we all need basic education, and when we are about 16/17 we can choose to continue studying or start working (at least here in Sweden). But the longer you study, the more types of work you can do.

When they've educated themselves enough to do the type of work they want to do.


For example, if I begin working at 16/17, I can only do basic and simple things, but as I study, more doors open - I can become a doctor, an austronaut or scientist (among many other things).

Right.


So - if I choose to become a doctor, I'll have to study anyhow - even in socialism. It may take time, but what do I do in the meantime? Do I go to school 2-3/4 hours a day and have the rest as sparetime? Do I have to work before I become what I wish to be?

I don't see school being 2 3/4 hours. It'd probably be a lot more, with much better and fuller education than is currently available (at least here in the United States). You may very well wish to work as something of an "intern" or a trainee in what you're doing. Really it's up to you thought. Your education, and needs while being educated would be covered by the state, your food needs as a child even before you were a boy would covered by the state. It's impossible to say how this consumed labor would be equalized in production. It could come in the form of something like a tax, however, unlike today's world it would not be a tax on a certain thing or any sort of property tax. It would simply be a way to account for the consumption of children using the production of adults. Thus to the people and with the structure of the credit system such a tax would not even be perceivable for the most part. It could also come from strictly volunteer labor, or that could be used further to compliment the necessary productive force.

Once again, the idea is simply that we equalize production/consumption (at the very least) with a socialized production model. I have little doubt that surpluses would be apparent right off the bat, but this doesn't mean we should simply skip them and assume we'll be "ok" by increasing consumption and leaving production relatively the same. This is what will cause scarcity, not just of food, but of lots of things needed.

[pandora]

Entertainment is a big question. Without the need to sell products it would go back to stories, philosophy, [political etc.] and local news, weather and music. This would be a nice change. Local communities could make choices about what was acceptable to them. I think there should be definate dialogue furthering Communist and Socialist ideas, until a full form of Communism takes hold, but what that would look like would be up to individual communities. I do not advocate totalitarianism.



When is a person ready to work? I mean, we all need basic education, and when we are about 16/17 we can choose to continue studying or start working (at least here in Sweden). But the longer you study, the more types of work you can do.

[Novel Gentry]
When they've educated themselves enough to do the type of work they want to do.


I found this quote especially interesting, because at current time I have a great deal of schooling but no opportunities to do much of anything and must work like a dog on my hands and knees to pay my rent scrubbing toilets and bussing tables when I am a master's student. Currently in education in the United States there are many professional educators who hold students who are lower status back, there was corruption such as this in the USSR too, I wonder how we could stop this to keep such people from having too much power over their students futures and causing them harm and alienation.



For example, if I begin working at 16/17, I can only do basic and simple things, but as I study, more doors open - I can become a doctor, an austronaut or scientist (among many other things).
[novel gentry]
Right.

Once again this was interesting to me. I have not one open door in the world at moment despite 24 years of education and 18 years of hard labor. I dream of a world where people can do what they love and have food, clothing and shelter and help others and not have to suffer as I and many many others do.

[NovelGentry]

I wonder how we could stop this to keep such people from having too much power over their students futures and causing them harm and alienation.

Quite simple. Teachers like any other profession would be something of a federated economic organization (a commune). There would be standardized tests, with questions voted on by all teachers. Passing these tests would show you're capable. These tests too would be recognized by other associations. Say you have a the free association of hospitals, they would vote to recognize the tests created by the teachers associates for the medical field.


Once again this was interesting to me. I have not one open door in the world at moment despite 24 years of education and 18 years of hard labor. I dream of a world where people can do what they love and have food, clothing and shelter and help others and not have to suffer as I and many many others do.

What you talk about is a symptom of capitalism. Underemployment does NOT exist under socialism unless there simply isn't enough people willing to fill the positions. Hiring 3 extra workers for whatever commune does not effect "profit margins" because such profit margins do not exist. The commune loses no "money" or anything really. All forms of credit, immediate pay credit (replacement for money) and future pay credit (loans) are centralized in the hands of the state. This credit becomes abstract, it is a simple representation of labour power. In order to maintain a stable economy, however, the credit available to workers must never exceed the credit generated by workers.

The Hospitals and such would have no need to care about who's working there, why, or how much their working aside from simple coordination. Making sure there's no 80 doctors scheduled in the same OR at the same time... etc. And also making sure all doctors there are "certified."

[pandora]

You operate too much from the factory model, I can't stand standarized forms, more prone to make Christmas trees of them :D as do most creative types.

Hell raisers and muck raisers would probably get shot in your version of Capitalism. I am too much an Alice forever knocking over the deck of cards when things are wrong. So I would prob. be used for the revolution and then executed. I figured as much.

Honestly what are you going to do with all the people like me that refuse to play the game, execution :lol:

It's better than living a lie. Communism is not a lie, it's the truth, but we have very different visions of that community.

Don't get me wrong when I see intelligent people working at menial labor well into their 50's it makes me angry. But by your system if they didn't "measure up" to upper class values they'd still be cleaning toilets into their 70's .

I'd rather be dead then be stuck as such. And I've cleaned a lot of toilets so I'm not afraid of hard work. I guess all of us creative types are too reactionary for you but it seems to be that you feel that people like me should be cleaning the feet of people like you the intellectuals. But in the end you would have to kill us because we are too bold and would rather have a bullet to the brain then live with out truth honesty and openess, and yes being organic and open. I dream of a Communist society where everyone is treated with justice, but not an authoritarian one.

[Raisa]

I think there would be alot more local entertainment after work in the higher stages of socialism instead of five good entertainers who come on tv.
Im sure if word got around that someone was good theyd probably be a peoples entertainer who is requested to come to different towns and preform because people like them all over, which is like a real rockstar whos fame is based on real merit not some man in a suit saying " we are going to make you look cool and sell records" like avril levigne.

I am not sure how much entertainment would be an "industry " anymroe with art not being commodified like it is now in the capitalist society.

I think more fame would be based on word of mouth and there would be less crap on tv. Unless you were real buisy being a peoples entertainer, you would be occupied with a regular job.

This means professional musicians really better have skills because there is no capitalism to promote them and degrade art for money. It is all up to the people themselves to decide if they like you and want to hear anymore.

No more Jessica Simpsons little sister being famous when she isnt that good any damn way.

[NovelGentry]

You operate too much from the factory model, I can't stand standarized forms, more prone to make Christmas trees of them biggrin.gif as do most creative types.

Hell raisers and muck raisers would probably get shot in your version of Capitalism. I am too much an Alice forever knocking over the deck of cards when things are wrong. So I would prob. be used for the revolution and then executed. I figured as much.

Honestly what are you going to do with all the people like me that refuse to play the game, execution

It's better than living a lie. Communism is not a lie, it's the truth, but we have very different visions of that community.

WTF are you talking about? First off, this isn't about communism, this is about socialism. Second, why the hell would you be executed and by who exactly?


Don't get me wrong when I see intelligent people working at menial labor well into their 50's it makes me angry. But by your system if they didn't "measure up" to upper class values they'd still be cleaning toilets into their 70's .

It has nothing to do with "upper class values." These are determined by the free associations of workers and producers through communal organization and democracy. There is no "upper class" involved.


I'd rather be dead then be stuck as such. And I've cleaned a lot of toilets so I'm not afraid of hard work. I guess all of us creative types are too reactionary for you but it seems to be that you feel that people like me should be cleaning the feet of people like you the intellectuals. But in the end you would have to kill us because we are too bold and would rather have a bullet to the brain then live with out truth honesty and openess, and yes being organic and open. I dream of a Communist society where everyone is treated with justice, but not an authoritarian one.

How in the hell did you read all of this out of what I said?

[pandora]

Originally posted by [email protected] 31 2005, 02:15 AM


Scuse me i was being reactionary :D

I was worried about the standarized test idea here:

I wonder how we could stop this to keep such people from having too much power over their students futures and causing them harm and alienation.pandora



reply: [novel gentry]
Quite simple. Teachers like any other profession would be something of a federated economic organization (a commune). There would be standardized tests, with questions voted on by all teachers. Passing these tests would show you're capable. These tests too would be recognized by other associations. Say you have a the free association of hospitals, they would vote to recognize the tests created by the teachers associates for the medical field.

When I think of standarized testing to decide where one goes professionally I am reminded how as a budding artist i was given a form with thirty circles and told to make 30 different faces to qualify as "gifted" we all got them, but as a poor kid from a housing project, when I asked the teachers about myself they laughed in my face. I think I was maybe ten. Needless to say I sat there stumped at such a stupid test and could only design one face. So no curriculum. Of course later in life I took classes at the county college I was told I was a painter by skilled "artists" and offered a chance to study in Italy which I could not afford to do.

I was never able to become an artist except as a hobby. Although I lived with artists in community and we drew together for years. I agree with Raisa that the state of the arts is crapola right now. To become an artist takes years of training in light, breath as a singer, and daily hours of practice for the musician.

I dream of a Communist society where more like the pubs in Manchester everyone has a turn at the instruments which are passed around the bar, and everyone sings; although their are some stand out singers and they sing regularly and tour around like bards and have their own community it would continue to be more of guild, but where everyone who had interest could try. Many people have learned an instrument through determination to the enjoyment of their audience.


Novel Gentry
All forms of credit, immediate pay credit (replacement for money) and future pay credit (loans) are centralized in the hands of the state. This credit becomes abstract, it is a simple representation of labour power. In order to maintain a stable economy, however, the credit available to workers must never exceed the credit generated by workers.

I assume you are discussing a Socialist system here. I did not realize that. The idea of credit or dollars created by an economy is controversial. I understand the idea of some form of credit in trade between cities and agricultural regions there should be a beneficial relationship that is symbiotic between the two regions, not one where one feeds on the other as is the present relationship between center and peripheral.

Your reliance on such systems of credit, standarization, and other allusions to the "factory--taylor model" ie in agriculture, gave me the Stalinist jitters <_< hence my reaction. Being very liberal and fearful of an overly authoritative state I became a little overwhelmed.

My fear being if you only honor those who are a credit, then what of children, elderly, the disabled, and people who are unable to work well in community. There is going to be a very difficult transition for many people who were taught to be individualistic for survival in a market based economy to truly communal living structures.

This fear of mine is not entirely unreasonable. In situations in the past when the community was all powerful and in authoritative governments. Those who were differenent and had different ideas were persecuted. In China if you were not very able bodied and thought differently you could be labeled "counter-revolutionary" and put to death. In the next "cultural revolution" it is of grave importance that culture and diversity thrive and are not gotten rid of, there is a way that community and individual can work together to the benefit of each without reliance on competitiion and a market economy. In fact it is the only way each can nurture the other through a sense of place.

I am not anti-technology, but I do wish to revolutionize the means of production in a way that is less alienating to those performing the labor. Plus it is of grave importance that all beings learn to work with their hands as well as their heads, in order to appreciate those willing to do the bottom level jobs. It will be a beautiful day when all can live sustainably without fear of layoff or lack of food no matter what work, or even lack of it they have engaged in that day. But in my experience helping people to work, all people want to be productive members of the society, it&#39;s always more a matter if the society will have them.


Novel Gentry
What you talk about is a symptom of capitalism. Underemployment does NOT exist under socialism unless there simply isn&#39;t enough people willing to fill the positions.

I suppose I felt shut out, and I see so many who are shut out worse, I fear a repeat of this society and what that would mean for the world. What happens I always wonder for those who no longer wish to produce or be productive?

Surely there must be other workers like myself so played out in the increase of productivity that we can not go on with out a break. Sometimes I think I could just sit and stare at a wall forever and not move. We are caught in a horrible world right now where it seems the environment and workers rights are being destroyed more than ever.

Where supposed labor union leaders like Andrew Stern are saying in the New York Times magazine that "The popular image of greeedy corporations that want to treat their workers like slaves, is in most cases just wrong." Trying to "GLOBALIZE" the labor movement in ways that will make us all slaves.

It is not the darkest before the dawn yet but it&#39;s getting there, and what happens when one by one small cogs like me get crushed in the big machine when there is no solidarity movements.

Perhaps that&#39;s why I fear your "big machine" of such strong centralized authority over a joint venture of local and centralized where localities have power to make decisions in their community as long as they don&#39;t try and institute slavery or a capitalist structure again or enforce discrimination, injustice, privatization, or government religion.

[NovelGentry]

I dream of a Communist society where more like the pubs in Manchester everyone has a turn at the instruments which are passed around the bar, and everyone sings; although their are some stand out singers and they sing regularly and tour around like bards and have their own community it would continue to be more of guild, but where everyone who had interest could try. Many people have learned an instrument through determination to the enjoyment of their audience.


And this is OK for the arts. Unlike under capitalist society practicing your art or individually developing it would not be an impossibility for anyone. What I was referring to is roles where some sort of standard should be kept. We can&#39;t have everyone passing the scapal around and taking turns with it in the OR. Nor can just anyone be designing the support structures for a bridge.


My fear being if you only honor those who are a credit, then what of children, elderly, the disabled, and people who are unable to work well in community. There is going to be a very difficult transition for many people who were taught to be individualistic for survival in a market based economy to truly communal living structures.

I&#39;ve already addressed this. And I&#39;m not so sure how you can consider workers democracy authoritarian.


I fear a repeat of this society and what that would mean for the world. What happens I always wonder for those who no longer wish to produce or be productive?

I&#39;m not sure how you see this as possible since the means of production would not be held privately.


Surely there must be other workers like myself so played out in the increase of productivity that we can not go on with out a break.

I don&#39;t see anything wrong with an increase in productivity, I think it will happen quite naturally given the new form of "work." People will be all over the board doing all the things they love to do, and all of it will be beneficial to society and they in turn can take that contribution and receive the products of that society with it. You make this sound like a reemergence of the 16 hour work day. You can work as much or as little as you like, but what you contribute to production will equate to what you take out of that society. If that sounds "mean" or "authoritarian" I think you&#39;re ignoring the simple fact that the production is socialized and controlled democratically.


It is not the darkest before the dawn yet but it&#39;s getting there, and what happens when one by one small cogs like me get crushed in the big machine when there is no solidarity movements.

Are you talking about under capitalism? You keep referring to your own situation as if it would be the same as it is now, what exactly makes you think this is the case?


Perhaps that&#39;s why I fear your "big machine" of such strong centralized authority over a joint venture of local and centralized where localities have power to make decisions in their community as long as they don&#39;t try and institute slavery or a capitalist structure again or enforce discrimination, injustice, privatization, or government religion.

How is what I propose centralized authority? Look, it&#39;s very simple. Workers form communes, economic organization based on cross trade necessity and geographical relation. Within these communes the things being produced are are left completely up to the workers, it is democratically voted on, as is any form of management and coordination required.

Above the commune level you would have trade (by trade I mean skill) federations, for example the workers commune in the San Francisco Bay area would like to ensure that students trained as civil engineers have at least met a certain standard. You wouldn&#39;t want a civil engineer who doesn&#39;t know calculus. Thus the trade federation sets these standards (once again completely democratically) between itself and the federaton of educators.

On top of all this you would have what I will call (taken from a book about socialized production and based on Marx&#39;s words) the Free Associate of Workers and Producers. Once again, a completely democratic body which looks to ensure coordination across the field. Ensuring distribution needs are met for regional sections, setting up coordination efforts between communes so that in the event regions need something fast it is done.

This in effect the economic organization only. Political organization would be much similar, ensuring democracy across the board and focusing first on the local (commune) level. The "government" acts simply as an administrative force, coordinating and pushing to produce the means to better coordinate this economic system. Legislative power is 100% within the hands of the people, locally and nationally. Executive force is coordinated by the administrative, however, all veto power remains in the hands of all workers. No single man holds control over anything. Not even a single group of men. Control over these two bodies working in unison (and thus composing the state with political power in the hands of the workers) is completely and utterly democratic and up to the workers. Think of the administrative as something like a commune of logistic workers that bends to the necessities of the workers.

[pandora]

Perhaps I am worried because I have seen too often where bureaucratic organizations have bent the rules, or used interpretive guidelines to disenfranchise workers and students who are different from them, ie. from different backgrounds or who are perceived as being "unprofessional" that is can not follow up class decorum. If there is not a big shake up of the existing roles of power in many organizations including education and engineers as well as agricultural groups then I think we will see the same people in power.

This is a difficult situation, as we saw with Che he was not apt to remove engineers or shake up the power structure prematurely as he wanted things to remain functioning as normal. It was only after this was not possible as many engineers left fearing having their bank accounts nationalized that he was left having to educate the average worker.

Also I disagree with an earlier comment you made regarding the system of agriculture towards cash crops in Cuba. Cuba had two cash crops when Che took over the agricultural dept as head of economic affairs: tobacco and sugar. It was not as you said inept at producing these crops, it was producing 5-6 million pounds of sugar a year for US consumers. With the US pull away from Cuba this crop was instead sold to the USSR and production increased to 8 million pounds.

The problem lay not in the cash crop but rather in that the machines and tractors being used in the fields were of US design and were by the standard rather than the metric system towards parts as the USSR was :o hence they could not replace tractor parts. In fact as we all know the Bay of Pigs hostages were traded for tractor parts and baby food.

The other problem was the hacienda owners left with everything they could stuff in their pockets leaving their land and property in bad straits, so all of this had to be righted.

I also disagree with you on your endorsement of productivity increases. Although productivity may rise slightly with increased joy of working. I would actually like to see productivity go down&#33; :D

I see it at obscene rates, and every hill and dale is being paved not for need of a road, but because paving them increases GNP. I would like to see people work less hours, work mornings with afternoons off to be with their families, and evenings to work on personal craft to trade in their communities simply for the joy of their culture.

I don&#39;t see productivity and products as the goal. I see happy lives as the goal. I would prefer to reestablish relationships in communities and to bring about healing there as the primary goal. This would be the real entertainment. I don&#39;t agree with factory farming. I think there is a better way while still meeting needs and the first step is to reduce the amount of transportation costs and petroleum use in shipping food across the world. I think a certain amount of trade between regions is good, but what we have now is unsustainable and ridiculous.

Local produce should be encouraged because it is less exhausting on the system to serve communities local produce and food. ALso stopping sterile seed and hybrids, neuro-toxins in pesticide that destroy water quality etc.

I think increasing the non-contaimnated fresh water supply in regions will be major work, as will be switching to local power alternatives and small versus big dams, increase of wetlands, and increased use of naturally grown plants and herbs :o

I&#39;ve been to Czech Republic and seen Soviet housing it is ugly and inefficient, but the Western German housing is overdone and more inefficient. I think building efficiency such as adobe in desert and domes should be increased.

If we are going to have a more intelligent government lets have one that increases community and pursues new ideas. With decrease in traffic the number of roads needing to be maintained will fall :o

Local roads could be encouraged. Walking bridges, different kinds of bridges. I&#39;m just asking you to think outside the box. First off it is much more economically viable to use trains instead of trucks, etc.

Anyhoo, this is a big topic. But I like the ideas of councils that inter-relate like the gears of a clock. But I also like when you can talk to someone person to person and see change. It would be good to have a system that encompensed both.

Also will you be the one to tell a woman who has worked dead end jobs her whole life that that is all she is good for because that is all she is trained for, and the state does not see it equable to train someone so old in a new skill. I think if someone is willing to learn something new they should do so, and if they learn it well they should work thus. But they have to apply themselves. I have seen many older workers take on new jobs.

[NovelGentry]

If there is not a big shake up of the existing roles of power in many organizations including education and engineers as well as agricultural groups then I think we will see the same people in power.

But we must remember who is going to be taking the reigns here. The working class as a whole, are engineers not part of the working class? Maybe not all of them, but there are of course those who do the "shit work" of the job so to speak, who are new there and have been educated already to do much more.

We do need a shake up, although I wouldn&#39;t call it a shake up, I&#39;d think of it more as a rotation. More to the point, there should be no "power position" to hold. Democracy is across the board, from the guy cleaning the porto-potty on a construction site to the foreman. It would be better if the foreman&#39;s had the experience necessary, however, to get the work done. This doesn&#39;t mean they exclude workers, that is not their decision. They are there to coordinate the efforts, not decide promotion, the only people who can promote or demote are the workers as a whole.

Also, I think something you need to keep in mind is that much of this style of thinking will be shed before the revolution. If it was not, then revolution would probably not have happened to begin with. People need to look to a different system to decide to fight for it. By simple logical contradiction the workers should be long beyond this kind of reactionary thinking that indeed does lead to classes.


Cuba had two cash crops when Che took over the agricultural dept as head of economic affairs: tobacco and sugar. It was not as you said inept at producing these crops, it was producing 5-6 million pounds of sugar a year for US consumers. With the US pull away from Cuba this crop was instead sold to the USSR and production increased to 8 million pounds.

Yes, but unfortunately you cannot eat sugar coated tobacco for three meals a day an live. I was referring to the agricultural necessity to feed people. This is where scarcity exists. Cash crops are great and can get you the food you need... so long as there&#39;s not an overlord imperialist nation holding an embargo against you that restricts other nations from trading with you as well.


I also disagree with you on your endorsement of productivity increases. Although productivity may rise slightly with increased joy of working. I would actually like to see productivity go down&#33;

I think you&#39;re confusing productivity with necessary labor time and force here. I have little doubt productivity will increase, and I endorse this if it&#39;s possible. Productivity will increase alone with the fact that non-working people from the previous capitalist system will now be working. Once again, profit goals are gone, overproduciton is OK. When these people go back to work (not are put back to work) you will see a fair increase in productivty, and as such the possibility of decreasing necessary labor time would arise. If you have 6% unemployment, and those 6% can now do something in society the labor time of all can be decreased (assuming no scarcity). Either way, this is not decreased by the state, such things are controlled under workers democracy and in the end is their decision.


I don&#39;t see productivity and products as the goal. I see happy lives as the goal. I would prefer to reestablish relationships in communities and to bring about healing there as the primary goal. This would be the real entertainment. I don&#39;t agree with factory farming. I think there is a better way while still meeting needs and the first step is to reduce the amount of transportation costs and petroleum use in shipping food across the world. I think a certain amount of trade between regions is good, but what we have now is unsustainable and ridiculous.

Productivity and thus products are the initial goal however. Or at least they should be. As I said, we have to make sure we have oversupply before we start scaling down. It is not that we scale up to increase productivity, it is simply the socialized production which does that naturally. But to ensure we can scale down, we must first ensure needs are met. Farmers might be happy if they only have to work 2 hours a day, but if there&#39;s not enough food to feed 100% of the population, lots of other people aren&#39;t going to be. The same goes for any other trade. We need to ensure everyone can get an education, and thus that there are always teachers available and classes to hold these people. We have to ensure people have doctors who can see them in a timely fashion etc. This is what is going to make a lot of unhappy people under capitalism happy. Then, once we realize a state of overproduction (either by increased technological advancement or simply out of increased employment) we are able to align ourselves accordingly.

This is of course not any single persons decision. This is what I believe needs to be done, in no way can this be forced upon the people. But I see no reason why conscious workers would not look to settle the problem of scarcity (if indeed it would exist) by deciding to work a little extra. This is their decision.

As far as your world trade scenarios go. We should attempt to be self-contained first. A socialist nations reliance on another nation which more than likely has a capitalist mode of production needs to ensure they are taking steps to avoid that reliance. If we are actively trading with them, we are no doubt supporting their exploitation of the working class. Thus such world trade should cease to exist without a proper means to balance that exploitation by giving back to people. Socialist nations could of course trade with other socialist nations, but the "cost" should be unseen. We must seek to look at all members of the working class as parts of the same body. There should be no cost differentiation between two TRULY socialist nations.


If we are going to have a more intelligent government lets have one that increases community and pursues new ideas. With decrease in traffic the number of roads needing to be maintained will fall

Of course. What I propose is not "big business" tactics, it&#39;s simply not throwing away the technology big business has created. That technology can be employed and scaled down for such community production.


Also will you be the one to tell a woman who has worked dead end jobs her whole life that that is all she is good for because that is all she is trained for, and the state does not see it equable to train someone so old in a new skill.

No I wouldn&#39;t be the one to tell such a woman that. I would hope there is no one to tell such a woman that and that she has just the same opportunity to be educated for what she wants to do as anyone else. I&#39;m not sure where you got that I would.