radiated beef

[Nickademus]

In Canada a box of beef hamburgers was recently found to contain the e coli virus. this has caused a lot of issues on ground beef and how to make sure the beef is cooked enough to kill the virus.

the cattleman's association is suggesting that the best way to do this is by 'zapping' the beef with radiation.

so i offer you this choice -- beef with e coli that if cooked well enough won't cause a problem? or beef drenched in radiation?

yum yum -- glad i'm a vegetarian

[liderDeFARC]

OHHH Nasty!!! i dont want to freaking die of cancer but i dont want to bleed to death... isnt that what e coli does, make you bleed from all openings of your body?

well i live in the u$ and thats too close to Canada.

[Valkyrie]

The Ebola virus makes you bleed from body openings. That virus is airborne. E-coli is a bacteria and still can be fatal as well.

[liderDeFARC]

Oh thanks Paris, i got confused there for a minute. Oh so what does e coli do?

[Valkyrie]

It invades your body with predatory bacteria.
In other words : It makes you fucking really sick. I think a mild doses would barely have any symptoms, a moderate dose, I think you'd have puking and the works.. and eating something heavily contaminated with it you would need to have your stomach pumped and maybe be hospitalized .

Biotech Watch:

http://www.infoshop.org/biotechwatch.html


(Edited by Paris at 5:19 pm on July 13, 2002)

[Nickademus]

Quote: from liderDeFARC on 5:02 pm on July 13, 2002
OHHH Nasty!!! i dont want to freaking die of cancer but i dont want to bleed to death... isnt that what e coli does, make you bleed from all openings of your body?

well i live in the u$ and thats too close to Canada.


um er well, some plants in the USA already nuke their meet with radiation

[Anonymous]

Taking your time? we've been scared of e-coli for about five years! Why is America always late? Do what we did, iport it all to France.

[Fires of History]

Leave it to North American geniuses to think of a quick fix without exploring the possible side effects. It's like with genetically modified foods. It works now, but nobody is willing to take a real looks at where all this tinkering leads.

But let's also take a look at the bigger picture. Why do this to the meat at all? Because our society has created a system where the food you buy is from hundreds- if not thousands- of miles away. The time will come when we don't have the oil, resources, or energy to ship food such ridiculous distances and we will be forced to buy local. Why not start now and cut out all this manipulation of our food? We really do not know what all these 'better living through science' gimmicks might mean. And until we fully understand the long term effects it shouldn't be used.

[Valkyrie]

Yeah, I'm with you FOH. I'm all for community organic gardens and squatting vacant land for it. A few inexpensive seeds can produce an abundant amount of food..... (and weed too!)

[ID2002]

The level of Radiation used in killing bacteria is around 12 time that
of a
single dental X-RAY. It also last for 10 seconds at a time in order to be fully effective. It would most likely do serious harm to you if you were in the machine at the time. However once the process is complete there is NO RISK to the person at all. Radiation counts fall well above background" or natural levels.
This irradiation process is not JUST limited to meats, but most..if not all vegetable produce on store shelves. This is to insure that the vegetables stay fresh longer in packaging without NASTY additives like MSG, and Sulphites which cause liver and kidney damage over long periods of time.
....irradiation is benifical, trust me on this.

[Fires of History]

ID2002,

But look at what we have to do to our food just so it seems 'fresh.' Yuk! And I can see what you're saying, but still I don't think we are experts enough on radiation to say it's ok to use on food. I could be wrong or right, but it doesn't matter to me. I would rather eat local and organic now and see what the scoop is on irradiation about a decade or so from now. Local and organic is better anyway, for you, for the environment, for local economies, for small farmers...

[ID2002]

I agree with you "Fires of History"....I would rather eat organic locally grown produce too.

[Mac OS Revolutionary]

I think the technology to produce geneticly modified foods is excellent. The only problem is large companies using the technology for a quick buck and not thinking about the consequences to their customers :

[Stormin Norman]

I thought you people were advocates for the poor. We are currently faced with a situation were the planet is in danger of exceeding its carry capacity. This means that the food and other resources needed to sustain the population will no longer be enough. The only way to solve this problem lies in finding new technologies that will allow us to increase the carrying capacity of the globe. Why do you think that we are able to live so comfortably? It is because engineers have enhanced all of our lives. You know, better living through chemistry.
Food irradiation has been around since the 1950's. The purpose for using this method is to kill insects and bacteria. Once irradiated it is packed into airtight containers to prevent contamination. This practice allows the food to sit on shelves for months, without rotting. Obviously this helps in providing food to remote localities where food shortages may persist and the population is starving. For all of you environmentalists who what to say energy, this practice allows some foods to go unrefridgerated. Isotopes Cobalt-60 or Cesium-137 are used as gamma emitters, both of which have relatively short half-lives. The initial levels of radiation equal 60 times that of a normal medical x-ray. However, the food does not become radioactive itself. There has never been any evidence to substantiate such a claim, as this is typical anti-nuclear paranoia.
It is evident that many people in our society lack the general knowledge necessary to speak on certain issues, like genetic engineering and nuclear chemistry. Many see these technologies as the boogieman because they have not taken the time to educate themselves on the fundamental science behind the technology. I suppose that they fear the unknown. Genetic engineering of corn was first practice by the Native Americans who hybridized the crops through cross-pollination. This practice allowed for species to be acquired that could grow in different climates. Surely, you can see the value of that. Would you rather have pasteurized or unpasteurized milk? Get the picture? People have worked lifetimes to create the type of benefits that many take for granted. Do you think our current population would survive if everyone went back to all organic farming? They wouldn't because this type of farming is inefficient. Not to mention the fact that no law exists that force 'organic' farmers to divulge the materials used to produce their crop. You are simply paying higher prices for what could possibly be the same goods.
This is not to say that the current technology does not create new problems. Most of the time it does. However, these are problems that must be dealt with by tomorrow’s engineers. Much of the problems generated in the 20th century are now being solved as new issues arise. So if you honestly care about the planet, quit your *****ing, and put yourself in a position to do something that will generate solutions to tomorrow’s problems.

(Edited by Stormin Norman at 1:24 am on July 16, 2002)

[Nickademus]

genetically engineered food has given us products that are eaten by bugs unless one particular type of insecticide is used (capitalism wins again). and regarding the fact that the human population has outgrown the agricultural resources should perhaps be a hint.....we are fucking with the natural order of things and we should stop. we've destroyed this world, who can blame the world for wanting to destroy us humans.

[Fires of History]

"I thought you people were advocates for the poor."

We are. Guess what, when I buy local and organic, I am buying those products from someone driving a 1979 GMC who is subconsciously thinking about how to keep paying the bills. Small farmers, especially organic farmers, have it rough. It's agribusiness that has it easy, chemicals, gas-guzzling harvesters and rigs, corporate sponsorship, and often even government sponsorship.

"We are currently faced with a situation were the planet is in danger of exceeding its carry capacity."

Do you support the resource exhausting model of trans-national corporation based overconsumption hailed as the great gift of capitalism?

"This means that the food and other resources needed to sustain the population will no longer be enough."

Yeah, surely not enough to carry on the amerikkan lifestyle of overconsumption. And in this same situation, how can anyone see a president against abortion as a sane man?

"The only way to solve this problem lies in finding new technologies that will allow us to increase the carrying capacity of the globe."

That and support sex education and support services around the globe instead of cutting funding to it like a certain redneck I know did. Also, government funding for better mass transit. People just having less kids. Euthanasia rights. Gay rights. Using hemp for any of it's thousands of uses finally. Government-funded solar panels for public buildings and at low cost for all. Etc, etc, etc. There are quite a few possibilities to effect population change and energy use.

You seem to believe that technology will always keep up with us. I don't. That's all. Eventually all this overconsumption, overpopulation, and resource depletion will still lead to a need to lower the population. And because of the inept leadership we have, bent more on making a quick buck than making sure we can breath in 7 generations, it will most likely be a catastrophe, perhaps a great dying off. Maybe even a new disease will cause this, who knows. We can wait until there a 10, 20, whatever billions of people to finally realize we have to change our ways, or we could do it now and potentially avert such a crisis. But then again no one likes change, especially those in power. I would just never have the faith to think that technology will always stay one step ahead of our idiot desicion making.

"Why do you think that we are able to live so comfortably?"

That's the problem. We rely on science, no matter what the effect might be on ourselves or our planet, in order to live so comforably. How long can this last?

"There has never been any evidence to substantiate such a claim, as this is typical anti-nuclear paranoia."

You don't seem to get it. This isn't about getting cancer from your steak. This is about the decisions we as a society are more and more willing to make in order to continue living so comfortably. Today radiation, tomorrow what? What will we need to do when the population reaches 12 billion? What will we think is acceptable then to support our consumer lifestyle?
Who cares about whether or not it's going to give you cancer after the first bite. It's more important to focus on why we need to do it in the first place, and also why we need to apply !radiation to our food! at any level and for any reason just so we can eat it. That doesn't seem a wee bit unnatural to you?

"Genetic engineering of corn was first practice by the Native Americans who hybridized the crops through cross-pollination."

There is a tremendous difference between Natives blending blue and northern yellow corn strains for a new and hearty blend and biotech companies that develop seeds for the third world that are sterile (no seeds develop) in order to keep them dependent on the company's business. People see all this science as a gift. Well it is, to the corporations that own it.

"Do you think our current population would survive if everyone went back to all organic farming?"

It's doomed to not survive. Whether or not the current population survives, at some point there will be a need to finally change our habits and practices. Ok, say you feed everyone now by messing with nature, fine, what next? Now you have even more people. What then? Ok, so we mess with nature some more, but then we still just have more! It's endless, and change will be forced eventually, unless you're silly enough to think that we'll be living in other solar systems before our resources run out lol...

You make it sound like if pesiticides and radiation weren't used that somehow the whole world would starve. You can blame most of that on government red tape actually.

"However, these are problems that must be dealt with by tomorrow’s engineers."

There's that faith in technology again. You remind me of the people who say, "Oh well, I'll be dead, who cares?" That's right, tomorrow's engineers will just clean up the mess! I have no responsibility to anything, the future generations can just suck your wake right? This is exactly what I am talking about. Lack of responsibility. Someone else will fix it, we're fine now. Engineers. Scientists. They all do nothing but make it easier on the conscience of people who catch themselves in the rearview mirror of their SUV with a burger in their mouth while driving 45 miles out of their way to buy socks.

"So if you honestly care about the planet, quit your *****ing, and put yourself in a position to do something that will generate solutions to tomorrow’s problems."

What position would that be? Rich? A land owner? Wuh?

[j]

FOH-Actually you are not neccesarily buying from a guy in 79 GMC who owns a local farm. The reality is that local and organic can be produced by factory farms. Big corporations can produce things that can labeled local and organic (of course the local must depend on where you're at). The family farm is not really in existence anymore. It's sad but it's true.

Anyone no where e-coli comes from? Usually human excrement. That's right your shit. Now why would e-coli (human shit) be in a hamburger? Greed. That sewer pipe and that farm might be a bit too close, huh?? Well, I don't care because I'm making $$$$$$$.

j

[Moskitto]

ID2002 is right.

Irradiating food has zero effects on the radioactivity of food. materials do not become radioactive simply because of exposure to radiation (this can be proved by measuring the Gaiger readings for an object before and after exposure to radiation.) Materials only become radioactive if they are contaminated with radioactive materials.

E-Coli is found naturally in the human bloodstream anyway, it's what give excrement it's distictive smell.

This reminds me a story my dad told me about his university days. He was working in a lab in Canada testing samples which had been collected by environmental health. This sample was a beefburger. It was seriously disgusting, it contained blood and artificial colourings and all sorts of stuff.

[Fires of History]

J,

If 'big companies' want to produce organic, more power to them. Maybe small farming is dead where you live, but it's something we're trying to preserve here in BC. And as for me, actually, I do buy my produce from small farmers. I even know their names, and their old trucks. Crazy that you might actually know who made your food eh?

But I agree with you that many of the threats to our food and water come straight from humans. That's exactly what I was trying to get at.

As far as the 'harmfulness' of it all, perhaps I didn't make myself clear. Even cars are 'safe,' but look at what they are doing to the air, water, etc.

There was a study in Germany where two sets of mice were given gm and non-gm food. The mice refused to eat the gm food. Then the gm group was force fed the gm food. And guess what? Their behavior changed. The mice that ate the gm food became more listless, eating at strange times, slept less, and started becoming aggressive to the other mice. This study was recently featured in The Ecologist magazine, it's in the edition with the mushroom cloud on the cover for those of you who wish to read more, either this month or last month. I mean do you believe that we fully understand how gm food effects us? I don't think so.

Humans have been wrong before. We want to feel so sure about our science that it blinds us. Eat irradiated beef, I don't care as I am a vegetarian anyway. The irradiation isn't the problem, and I am sure that it's not going to make anybody drop dead. But is there any effect less than death? We don't know that for sure, that's all I am saying.

Why do people place their health in the hands of biotech companies bent only on profit? Doesn't make sense to me.

[j]

FOH,

Really? That is interesting. I'm in MA and there are small farmers out here but they are close to dead. I know VT has a few but are being bought up by corporations. But these farmers are not producing the stuff you find in your grocery store or even your whole foods store.

My friend recently bought his families' farm in Iowa. But he says that it is near impossible to run it. He's going to lease the farm land out. He says that small farming is officially dead in the mid-west. That was the point I was trying to make.

j

[Fires of History]

J,

Yes. Because BC is a 'vertical' province (mountains, etc), only 5% of our land is arable. So, BC is not well-suited for huge agri-business, there simply is not enough land to go around. Therefore, BC has seen a great preservation of the small farmer- and, as they have no agri-business competition, they still manage to get along year to year. That, and because BC is the largest consumer of organic goods in North America per capita.

Anyway....

I read the following in Shared Vision magazine, August 2002, and I wanted to post what it has to say about irradiation.

Organic Know How
by Elaina Sinclair

[Sorry, this irradiation part starts mid-article]

"Irradiation:

Which leads us from labelling to irradiation. Spices, for example, are a component of ingredients that can be under the '10 percent rule' and not originating at the source of product production. Therefore, spices are not required to be shown on the label, but yet they have been irradiated.

The sexy marketing illusion of irradiation is that it kills anything that may harm you, the consumer. So, what could be wrong when the food looks fresh and it lasts longer?

Irradiation involves moving food along a conveyer belt into a concrete chamber, where it is exposed to radiation from Cobalt 60, Cesium-137, and electron beam sources. The dose can exceed that of the radiation emitted by 5,000,000 chest x-rays. [Yes, it really says that. Keep in mind we're talking about sometimes up to a ton of food on the conveyer belt]

The force of the energy is so powerful that cells are broken, much like when one bruises one's knee and the blood under the skin can be seen from the broken veins. With irradiation, the food looks fine, but vitamins and enzymes have been all but smashed and free radicals are formed. [Free radicals cause cancer, for those of you that don't know]

Although free radicals kill some bacteria, they also bounce around trapped in the food, damage vitamins and enzymes, and combine with existing chemicals like pesticides in the food to form new chemicals.

Irradiating food is deceiving; it looks real but it has been altered. It is dead and damaged food masquerading as live, fresh, safe food. If you want to know if your food has been irradiated, don't wait until your government legislates labelling. That may not happen.

Look at the food you buy. If you know a product has travelled, is packaged in plastic, and yet still appears fresh, you can bet something is askew. Buy such an item, keep it out of the fridge, and watch what happens. If the non-organic item lasts and lasts, something isn't right, and certainly not natural. Beef won't age, and many times irradiated fruits and vegetables never ripen."

Just wanted to share that. It has even more to say, but that's all I've got time to write down right now.

I don't really care what the 'experts' say about the 'safety' of irradiated foods. I mean for pete's sake, doctors less than 100 years ago prescibed smoking tobacco. What will we think about putting radiation into our food 100 years from now? I would only hope future generations would laugh at such a ridiculous and desperate idea.

Are we that desperate? That dumb? That dependent on the massive agri-complex that sells us shit pretending to be food? Why anyone would brush off the idea of their food being dosed with radiation is beyond me.