Controversial

[Elmo]

Ofcourse when people think of national socialism they automaticly think of Hitler, and rightly so, and nazi ofcourse is short for national socialism in German. BUT national socialism dosent mean nazi.

Socialsm means a soceity that works together and shares for one universal cause. National socialsm as the name indicates is a form of scoialism, and the majority of people on this site are forms of socialsm.

National socialsm is when the people work together for the good of the country, its easier to just think of it as a patriotic form of socialism.

Seeing a picture of Bill Gates on the graphics forum dipicted as a nazi, seemed to be a little moronic. Bill Gates indeed is a capatlist and i am indeed opposed to him. But how he is a national socialst is over me, and as a nazi more so.

Bill Gates has got to the top of financial society in America, he did it without breaking humaniterian rights, and he isnt in a postion of major influence in capatlism goverment as it is commen thought, the proof of this is the fact that the U.S goverments gone up against Bill Gates in court recently to take money away from him to cotrol how powerful he is.

The reason i have posted this forum is to attempt (and more then likely fail) at informing people that national socialism is not a "evil" theory as some of those that try to dub it so.

National socialsm is a ideolgy, like communism. And its hated so much because of the Nazi movement in 1932 in Germany with Adolf Hitler. But is it right to treat national socialists this way because of the actions of one national socialist. If this was the case, what would be belived of communism because of Stalin?

To pre-answer all predictable replies

- I am not a nazi-Sympathiser, i am completely morally objected to Hitler
- National socialsm does not always mean nazism
- Stalin was not just "paranoid"

[Eddie Van Halen]

National Socialism i find to be like an insular kind of socialism, concetrated around one nation / population group, as opposed to a more global version of socialism.

Like you said, it would never be taken seriously because of the actions of the Nazi's in the 1940's.

[monkeydust]

pfftt.....

You seem to be inferring a whole ideology from a title - National Socialism.

In fact your thought is going the wrong way; "National Socialism" is merely a label for an actually existing ideology, it does follows that national socialists should necessarily base their ideas on existing nationalism and socialism combined. In fact, they didn't. In many ways the name National Socialism was purely rhetorical.

[Elmo]

Germany started out on the strict theory of national socialism in the early 30's. The idea of it is what appealed to such a finacianly depressed nation. National socialsm could well have been a serious ideolg if not for the coruptions of the Nazis.

[Vinny Rafarino]

Considering your unique and misinformed view of what "national socialism" is combined with your mention of Stalin and an odd defense of "proper nazis" leads me to believe you have embraced that silly little cult known as the National Bolsheviks.

Six to one you won't last the week.

[Elmo]

Im a socialist, not a national whatever you want to call it.

Im just saying that national socialsm has been given a bad rep unfairly, and that bill gates isnt a nazi.

[Vinny Rafarino]

Im a socialist

Remove your juvenile nationalist tendencies and you may indeed keep from becoming what every other nationalist, "socialist" becomes.

A Nazi.

[Elmo]

I am not nationilst dude, your reading into what i said to deeply.

Im not saying national socialsm is correct, im saying it dosent deserve to be dubbed evil as commonly as it does. If atall.

[Vinny Rafarino]

I am not nationilst (sic) dude, your (sic) reading into what i said to deeply.

Of course you're not dear!

You just think nationalism and Nazi's are the misunderstood, D&D playing geeks of your high school, right?

Someone has to "defend" them, right?

6 million jews and 15 school kids later.....

[Elmo]

You know when i said national socialsm isnt the same as nazism. And that you cant blame national socialsm for the actions of the nazis.......i think you can figure th rest out.

[Vinny Rafarino]

You know when i said national socialsm isnt the same as nazism

You're very confused.

[Elmo]

I mean that nazism is a form of national socialsm
But national socialsm isnt ALWAYS nazism

Read what i origanly said in the first post please.

[Intifada]

National Socialists were anti-marxist.

While the Nazis called themselves socialists, they were in opposition to the idea of class conflict, and that workers should own the means of production.

How you can describe Nazi thinking as "socialist" is beyond belief.

[Elmo]

If you had read what id said at a 4 year olds mental capacity, you would realise that national socialism is a "united society" that works together for the state.

[Elmo]

AND! the nazis didnt follow alot of the ideals of national socialsm correctly. But for you ill make what i said easier to understand. Im defending national socialsm. not the nazi regime of germany.

[The Garbage Disposal Unit]

Holy fuck, I can't believe thgis thread even exists!

National Socialism, in its defense of the abstractions of volk, glorification of the myth of the state, and rejection of the rational is inherently a reactionary ideology in all of its forms, and should be viciously stomped out wherever it raises its ugly head to distort the truth and subvert the objective fact of class with grand, meaningless, rhetoric of hate, myth, muscle, etiquite. Seriously, the only good nationalist is choking to death on their fucking flag.

[Intifada]

the nazis didnt follow alot of the ideals of national socialsm correctly.

Nazism is an abbreviation of Nationalsozialismus ("National Socialism").

The two are the same.

[Elmo]

Yes well done sparky, but if you read the origanal post instead of running of into your anti nazi mode. National socialsm isnt all about goose stepping around shouting heil feurer. There CAN be national socialism without nazism, but nazism is a form of national socialsm. So when i say national socailsm i mean the theory that is still in use today, and when i say nazism i mean the past tense for little german chaps runing aroung gassing jews.

Now before you replie....READ THE ORIGANL POST

[redstar2000]

It strikes me, Elmo, that you're talking about something that does not exist.

Unless, of course, you've managed to track down the obscure works of Otto Strasser -- a poor sap who thought that the "socialism" in "National Socialism" was meant to be taken seriously. Hitler booted him out of the NSDAP and not even his more famous brother Gregor would support him.

Consider what most historians agree were the characteristics of "National Socialism"...

1. Ruthless extermination of Marxism.

2. Ruthless extermination of the trade unions.

3. The preservation and defense of the private ownership of the means of production and the accumulation of private profit provided it was subservient to German government policy (or, as the Nazis said, "the interests of the Volk community"). Interestingly enough, this was not always enforced...when German steel makers declined to develop domestic German iron ore deposits because of their poor quality, the Nazis did not force them to do it anyway -- Hermann Göring used government resources (including large sums stolen from Jewish corporations when they were "Aryanized") to build a quasi-government steel works and develop those domestic iron ore reserves himself.

4. Long-range determination to exterminate the Jews, the Gypsies, many and perhaps most of the Slavs, and all other elements deemed to be "racially inferior".

5. The imposition of a narrow and romanticized version of "German culture" to the exclusion of any foreign contribution (however distant).

6. The development of a plan for "a new order in Europe" totally dominated by the interests and desires of the Third Reich. Other nations would be allowed to exist only as long as they were subservient to the Reich.

7. The creation of a vast network of single family farms in conquered territories for a new German peasant class that would both feed the Reich and raise large families of potential soldiers.

And so on...

Now, if you remove Adolph Hitler and his "inner circle" from this equation...what remains?

Not only Nazis, but many other Germans supported the first 3 characteristics. Point 6 was widely supported as well. Points 4, 5, and 7 might have been "toned down" quite a bit...we have no way of knowing.

But what remains would still not have been "socialism" in any sense of the word; the Third Reich would still have been a murderous fascist dictatorship.

Therefore, I see no reasonable way that you or anyone could speak abstractly about "National Socialism" as a "good idea" that was "perverted by Hitler".

It was a very bad idea that Hitler & Co. made even worse.

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/123.gif

[Intifada]

nazi ofcourse is short for national socialism in German. BUT national socialism dosent mean nazi.


This is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard.

If "National Socialism" is abbreviated by the word "Nazism", then of course it means exactly what it represents.


National socialsm is when the people work together for the good of the country, its easier to just think of it as a patriotic form of socialism.


What do you mean by patriotic?

The last time I checked, the philosophy of "National Socialism" was defined largely by the "25 Points", released by Hitler in 1920.

The programme of the NSDAP (http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/imt/document/nca_vol4/1708-ps.htm)

4. Only a member of the race can be a citizen. A member of the race can only be one who is of German blood, without consideration of creed. Consequently no Jew can be a member of the race.

Jeez! How leftist!

8. Any further immigration of non-citizens is to be prevented. We demand that all non-Germans, who have immigrated to Germany since the 2 August 1914, be forced immediately to leave the Reich.

If you take this to be a form of Socialism, you are one hell of a confused kid.


National socialsm is a ideolgy, like communism.

No it is not.

Like I have said before, Nazism (aka "National Socialism") is opposed completely to Communism.

National Socialism preaches individualism over collectivisation; Racial segregation over Racial tolerance; Reward over equality; Competition over cooperation; Nationalism over internationalism.

Quite simply, it is opposed to Communism.

[Elmo]

I never said it was a good idea, i said its not as bad as it was made out, and that the foundations of its theorys were not "evil" as there dubbed.

Also that Bill Gates isnt a nazi, wich he is pictured as in the graphics forum

[Intifada]

I never said it was a good idea, i said its not as bad as it was made out, and that the foundations of its theorys were not "evil" as there dubbed.

What foundations do you speak of?

Let's be specific, please.

[Vinny Rafarino]

Like I said, 6 to 1 the cat does not make it through the week.

I've seen little pricks like this many, many times over the last 20 years; the end result is always the same.

It's funny to watch the **** backpedal though.

I'm glad I never had kids.

[Elmo]

For the last time, i am not a national socialist, read the origanal fucking message.

I am just saying that the way national socialsm is treated is over exagerated. Like in the prince Harry forum etc.

And also that Bill Gates is not a nazi, just a capatilist dog.

Stop trying to act hard on the internet you fairy, and raise valid points against my post.

MOD EDIT:

Homophobia is not permitted on this board kid, so keep your hate to yourself.

[Encrypted Soldier]

Originally posted by [email protected] 21 2005, 06:42 PM
Germany started out on the strict theory of national socialism in the early 30's. The idea of it is what appealed to such a finacianly depressed nation. National socialsm could well have been a serious ideolg if not for the coruptions of the Nazis.
Yes, they did start out like that, and it involved the oppresion of non-germanic people. National Socialism wasn't corrupted by the Nazis, National Socialism is Nazism, when Adolf Hitler created the Nazi Party, he created the world's first official National Socialist Party.

By the way, in your first post you said how Stalin was not just paranoid. I'm guessing that you're saying that Stalin murdered millions of people not because he was paranoid, but because he was communist. That theory is absolutly wrong. Stalin wasn't communist, he just used the communist cause to his advantage, so he can rule as a dictator. This is called Stalinism, simply because Stalin was the first one to do this.

[Forward Union]

In other words National Socialism is Nazism, and Nazism is National Socialism. They are even the same word, yet one is a (German) acronym, the others the full English word.

The "National socialism" that you described, where socialism is used patriotically in one nation, happened in the USSR, Vietnam, Cuba ect. If your definition is correct, then surly these nations are/were national socialist?, or, in its germanic acronym; Nazi? I fail to see how this is correct. With the exeption of the USSr and China these nations fall well short of the description of National Socialist.

[Intifada]

Stop trying to act hard on the internet you fairy, and raise valid points against my post.

I have, along with countless others, raised points which refute your idiotic claims.

It is now your turn to respond to these points.

Such is a debate.

[Elmo]

Intifada, i was talking to comrade raf for hes darling youthinisms, not you.

Emcyrpted soldier, i didnt imply that stalin killed BECAUSE he was communist, but granted i was vague in my post so, what i meant is hitler and stalin both used the ideologies to kill jews (hitler) ukranians (stalin). Yet because of hitler national socialism was labelled permantley evil, yet communism wasnt.
I strongly belive communsim shouldnt be labeld this, and i see no reason why national socialism should be.

Anarcho rebel, i am perfectly aware where the word NAZI comes from, what i was saying is that just because your a national socialist dosent mean you wear a swastica and have a shaved head, funny little round glasses and go by the name Henrich.

[Intifada]

Intifada, i was talking to comrade raf for hes darling youthinisms, not you.


Still, my point stands.

Elmo, you speak as if "National Socialism" is unique from "Nazism".

If so, what is it?

Give us all a history of this "Socialism" you speak of.

[Elmo]

Ok, read this slowly taking in every bit one word at a time.

National socialsm is an ideology, i belive it wrong but still not evil.

Nazism is kind of like an extreme national socialism.

Like tyrany is extreme facism.

[Intifada]

National socialsm is an ideology, i belive it wrong but still not evil.

Nazism is kind of like an extreme national socialism.


You have yet to define, specifically, the philosophy behind "National Socialism".

[Elmo]

It was defined in my origanal post

[Intifada]

National socialsm as the name indicates is a form of scoialism, and the majority of people on this site are forms of socialsm.

National socialsm is when the people work together for the good of the country, its easier to just think of it as a patriotic form of socialism.


Very vague, don't you think?

Give me a history of "National Socialism", before "Nazism".

[Elmo]

There isnt really much of a history before nazism. Mousilini exercised the it first without calling it national socialism. Franco was the same time as nazis.

Since then alot of countries have been under national socialsm without calling it national socialsm because of the slander theyd get as nazi sympothisers. So there are examples there just "closet" national socialists.

[Intifada]

There isnt really much of a history before nazism. Mousilini exercised the it first without calling it national socialism. Franco was the same time as nazis.


Both Franco and Mussolini were fascists.

How is this good, or not as bad as we think it is?

I love your title!

Anyway, have fun being caged.

You certainly are the most discombobulated person I have had the pleasure to debate with.

[Elmo]

Can there not be facism in national socialsm? Sure facism is never good but does that mean that people who belive in this form of facism should be branded the stuf they are? should a entire ideology be treated like this because of a "poor" history?

[Encrypted Soldier]

They aren't treated exlusively bad because they have a poor history, the reason why they are treated badly is: They are racist.
They often resort to violence when it is not necesarry.
They are beyond Uber-Ultra-Conservatisim.
Most of them aren't even pure Aryan themselves, meaning that if their ideology ruled the world, they would be exterminated, which means that they are dumb, idiotic, ignorant fucks.
All in a nutshell, because their ideology sucks.

[Don't Change Your Name]

Yeah, I agree "nazism" and "fascism" are not the same.

Go to plan how to save the inexistant entity you call "country", and start calling yourself "fascist", which is a word that suits you better.

[PRC-UTE]

This makes a lot of sense.

Wasn't elmo the same one incoherently defending his Nazi prince? :lol:

I'm with RAF . . . this wee lad won't make it through the week.

[Forward Union]

This is what I found in my political dictionary under National Socialism:

Definition: [n] a form of socialism featuring racism and expansionism

Synonyms: Naziism, Nazism

See Also: socialism, socialist economy


If this guy supports national socialism; then how come this National Socialist nutter is still here is beyond me...

[The Feral Underclass]

RAF wins.