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NyChe21
17th January 2005, 20:59
It is apparent throughout history that intellectual breakthroughs in science, economics, and philosophy, are constantly condemned at the time of their conception, and for many years after. The same goes for political science. Even the American revolutionaries of the late 18th century were hailed as radicals at the beginning of the revolutionary period. Today, we can question the revolutions and politics of the past in three different methods. In the science of politics, we have three criteria in which to judge the ‘soundness’ of political acts and actors. Students of the political realm must consider ethical importance, empirical evidence, and prudential values when examining events. If we apply these measures to political acts and actors, can we not evaluate political theorists in the same way? In using these criteria, and examining the thought of late 19th century political thinker Karl Marx, one must consider him to be a significant figure, if not the most noteworthy political philosopher, with continuing influence over entire continents and generations.

The Communist Manifesto, written and published in 1848, remains one of the most influential writings in history, for both its ethics and the actions that it inspired. While being propagandistic in its tone, and clear in its message to all workers to consolidate and unite against the oppression of capitalist economics, the manifest of the Communist Party retains an ethical component not to be denied. Many liberal politicians may criticize the practical ideas of Karl Marx and followers such as Russian Bolshevik leader Vladimir Lenin, but proponents of the ‘revolution’ consistently refer to the moral values and goals laid out by Marx and Friedrich Engels in the manifesto. Although the actions of a select few may have tainted Marxist politics forever in the eyes of liberal democrats, the actual ethical principles held by Karl Marx are undeniably utopian and positive in value.

The liberation and emancipation of the human race as a whole is a pure and true dream and an ideal worth striving for. Liberals and conservatives hold this belief as strongly as Karl Marx did during his study of the capitalist system and its indubitable dark side. The philosophes of previous generations and revolutions stated the human liberty is only possible through cooperation in a governing body to set and abide by rule of law. Government was to restrain the destructive urges of man and point them in a constructive direction without infringing on his or her desires. Although this idea of liberty as stated by Thomas Hobbes and John Locke came to fruition during the American Revolution and constitutional period, a system of laissez-faire economics became an indisputable contributor to the liberal democratic revolutions of the time. Like the representative democracy, free market economics sought to allow individuals the freedom and liberty to pursue sustenance independently in order to harness the creative ability of man to prosper in and adapt to different market conditions and prices. But the ability of a select few to dominate others is something that fits well into the capitalist system; Marx saw this as unjust as slave ownership. Karl Marx and his materialist approach to history and politics enlightened the world to a concept that had not been actively explored before, which is the concept of economic freedom, supposedly provided by laissez-faire economies. Although historical Marxists have a long rap sheet of human rights violations and economic malaise, the theories set out by Karl Marx remain idealistic and provide an ethical vision rivaled by few.

Marx declared that the dark side of free market system is that it can allow individuals to not only rise, but dominate and exploit others. This statement is ethical in nature and is undeniably correct. After years of empirical and sociological study of Marxist views, the capitalist system of exploitation does not provide liberty. It is a stratified and closed system in which each generation is subject to the identical conditions and limited opportunities as the one that came before. Concisely, the ‘liberty’ to move up and down the socioeconomic ladder is restricted in the modern capitalist structure. Marx’s communist ideal, utopian in vision, erases this ladder completely, allowing for all of humanity to build its ladder together, leaving no man or group behind.

Marx’s empirical judgments about the stratification system that, in his analysis, divides society into a ruling capitalist class and a proletariat, or working class, has influenced empirical politics and sociology. His materialist approach to history has provided social scientists with a greater understanding of class revolutions and the development of civilization. Empirically, Marx’s theory is proved correct to a certain extent with the advent of the global market. Although it may have been difficult to separate the ‘haves’ and the ‘have-nots’ in industrialized countries with large, prospering middle classes during the middle of the twentieth century, the globalization of the economy has magnified the exploitative tendencies of capitalism so that an educated populace can easily determine the lessened reality of economic freedom under the fully developed capitalist system. Today’s world of political and economic domination by a plutocratic few supports both Marx’s materialist approach to social science and his empirical statements about the capitalist ruling class.

There is strong empirical and ethical value and soundness to the philosophy of Karl Marx. Although his theories may be both empirically valid and idealistic, the actual feasibility of the ideas expressed in The Communist Manifesto must be discussed. Many critics of social democracy and the dream of Marxist utopia believe that parts of human nature that communism endeavors to liberate also renders the reality of the communist state to be illusory. Strictly human behavioral tendencies such as greed and individualism do not lend themselves to the goals of any communist regime. Many proponents of liberal democracy assert that their preferred form of government, along with the capitalist market economy, provides the essential freedoms that man desires, such as those listed by English political philosopher John Locke; these are “life, liberty, and property”. These three concepts gave birth to the foremost revolutions of the modern political age, those of France and the American states. But what of the freedom guaranteed by Marxism? Does the communist revolution provide the economic freedom that is denied by capitalism?

The examples of communism witnessed in the twentieth century could not provide that freedom. Although Marx concurred with eighteenth century political philosopher Jean-Jacques Rousseau in that private property is a source of discord throughout human history, the answer given by The Communist Manifesto revealed itself to be indisputably impractical and unrealistic. In the course of the ‘revolution’, it was proved that no dictatorship of the proletariat could predict historical events or a population’s demand without oppression of certain rights such as freedom of the press and speech. Another mistake in Marx’s dialectic is the refusal of Marx and Engels to recognize the unique capability of the state to regulate and adjust the laissez-faire economy in order to benefit and appease the proletariat. Nor could he predict the damage that a world war could inflict on the possibility of a global worker’s organization. Such was the case in the Great War.

The case for the prudential value of the Marxian communist ideal is as thus. The true communist revolution remains to be demonstrated. No country that has attempted a communist revolution experienced the situation that Marx envisioned as the economic state that would foster such a conversion. Neither czarist Russia nor the agrarian nations of China and Cuba possessed the industrial capability to produce sustenance for its people. In Marx’s state, the industrial economy of the evil capitalists would overproduce while still exploit the working class with high prices and long working hours. The revolutionaries of the twentieth century endeavored to create a communist state in economically backward nations. One must give this historical truth recognition when considering the importance of Marxist thought. The feasibility of the communist utopia has not been realized yet, nevertheless it remains a goal for the revisionists and reformists in socialist democracies such as Germany and Sweden. Some economic concepts that Marx brings to light in his writings, such as public ownership of industry and distribution of national product have been staples of a few nations in combating the marginalization of the working class by plutocratic capitalism.

Even the intensely capitalistic and liberal democratic entity on the globe, the United States of America, submitted to socialist ethics and ideals in the 1930’s, when the huge surpluses produced drove prices down and the debt bubble burst. Redistribution of income, government support for public construction projects reflected socialist ideals while causing some members of the corporate class to believe that President Roosevelt was converting to communism. Although radical communism was not and may never be a feasible way of life for mankind, Marxist reformers and socialists have embraced the proletariat and discovered peacefully democratic avenues of ‘revolution’. Empirically, these revisionist actors in the German and Swedish republics still encounter the hills and valleys of the capitalist economy, but have nevertheless made vast strides in other areas such as significantly reduced illiteracy rate and most importantly, a socioeconomic system with increased social mobility for the working and lower classes. These are results that even the critical personality of Karl Marx could not argue with.

Seuno
18th January 2005, 22:27
But have you read the Communist Manifest 1848 of Karl Marx? Socialism is not an idea that Marx invented nor some forms of communism.
http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works...festo/index.htm (http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1848/communist-manifesto/index.htm)
Have a look at chapter three.

redstar2000
19th January 2005, 16:22
Originally posted by NyChe21
Although radical communism was not and may never be a feasible way of life for mankind, Marxist reformers and socialists have embraced the proletariat and discovered peacefully democratic avenues of ‘revolution’. Empirically, these revisionist actors in the German and Swedish republics still encounter the hills and valleys of the capitalist economy, but have nevertheless made vast strides in other areas such as significantly reduced illiteracy rate and most importantly, a socioeconomic system with increased social mobility for the working and lower classes. These are results that even the critical personality of Karl Marx could not argue with.

Why do you think that Karl Marx would "not argue with" those "vast strides"? Do you imagine that there were no reformists in his day...or that he did not vigorously criticize them?

Marx's goal was communism -- emancipation from wage slavery.

He never proposed that we should "settle for less".

I think he was quite correct.

:redstar2000:

The Redstar2000 Papers (http://www.redstar2000papers.fightcapitalism.net)
A site about communist ideas

Seuno
20th January 2005, 00:02
Originally posted by redstar2000+Jan 19 2005, 04:22 PM--> (redstar2000 @ Jan 19 2005, 04:22 PM)
NyChe21
Although radical communism was not and may never be a feasible way of life for mankind, Marxist reformers and socialists have embraced the proletariat and discovered peacefully democratic avenues of ‘revolution’. Empirically, these revisionist actors in the German and Swedish republics still encounter the hills and valleys of the capitalist economy, but have nevertheless made vast strides in other areas such as significantly reduced illiteracy rate and most importantly, a socioeconomic system with increased social mobility for the working and lower classes. These are results that even the critical personality of Karl Marx could not argue with.

Why do you think that Karl Marx would "not argue with" those "vast strides"? Do you imagine that there were no reformists in his day...or that he did not vigorously criticize them?

Marx's goal was communism -- emancipation from wage slavery.

He never proposed that we should "settle for less".

I think he was quite correct.

:redstar2000:

The Redstar2000 Papers (http://www.redstar2000papers.fightcapitalism.net)
A site about communist ideas [/b]
"Section II has made clear the relations of the Communists to the existing working-class parties, such as the Chartists in England and the Agrarian Reformers in America.

The Communists fight for the attainment of the immediate aims, for the enforcement of the momentary interests of the working class; but in the movement of the present, they also represent and take care of the future of that movement. In France, the Communists ally with the Social-Democrats(1) against the conservative and radical bourgeoisie, reserving, however, the right to take up a critical position in regard to phases and illusions traditionally handed down from the great Revolution.

In Switzerland, they support the Radicals, without losing sight of the fact that this party consists of antagonistic elements, partly of Democratic Socialists, in the French sense, partly of radical bourgeois......"
http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works...ifesto/ch04.htm (http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1848/communist-manifesto/ch04.htm)

redstar2000
20th January 2005, 01:20
In short, the Communists everywhere support every revolutionary movement against the existing social and political order of things.

In all these movements, they bring to the front, as the leading question in each, the property question, no matter what its degree of development at the time.

Finally, they labour everywhere for the union and agreement of the democratic parties of all countries.

The Communists disdain to conceal their views and aims. They openly declare that their ends can be attained only by the forcible overthrow of all existing social conditions. Let the ruling classes tremble at a Communistic revolution. The proletarians have nothing to lose but their chains. They have a world to win.

Same source as in the previous post...emphasis added.

Efforts to make Marx and Engels into "vigorous reformists" by selective quotation are unlikely to be successful on this board. :)

:redstar2000:

The Redstar2000 Papers (http://www.redstar2000papers.fightcapitalism.net)
A site about communist ideas

bolshevik butcher
20th January 2005, 18:52
There's a good argument that no one got anywhere by sticking to the middle road and that most achevements in history have been carried out by a radical(s).

chebol
21st January 2005, 05:39
"Although the actions of a select few may have tainted Marxist politics forever in the eyes of liberal democrats"

The ideas of Marx and Engels tainted Marxist politics in the eyes of "liberal democrats". They didn't need bureaucrats and murderers like Stalin and Mao to do that. Marxism is opposed to 'liberal democracy'.

"Although historical Marxists have a long rap sheet of human rights violations and economic malaise,"

What, as opposed to capitalism? feudalism? slavery? despotism? "liberal democracy"?

"the theories set out by Karl Marx remain idealistic and provide an ethical vision rivaled by few."

No, the theories set out by Karl Marx remain SCIENTIFIC and OPPOSED to IDEALISM.

"Although it may have been difficult to separate the ‘haves’ and the ‘have-nots’ in industrialized countries with large, prospering middle classes during the middle of the twentieth century"

Perhaps to the naked eye, but using MARXIST ANALYSIS it's not so hard- who owns the means of production & who doesn't.

"Strictly human behavioral tendencies such as greed and individualism do not lend themselves to the goals of any communist regime."

I think you mean "strict (or not so strict) human behavioural tendencies under CAPITALISM". Where is your proof that these are fundamental to human nature?

"Many proponents of liberal democracy assert that their preferred form of government, along with the capitalist market economy, provides the essential freedoms that man desires, such as those listed by English political philosopher John Locke; these are “life, liberty, and property”. These three concepts gave birth to the foremost revolutions of the modern political age, those of France and the American states."

The same capitalist system which is responsible for the continuing oppression and suffering of the vast majority of humanity, and the same states that are central to maintaining that oppression. Freedom, yes, but only to exploit or be exploited.

"the answer given by The Communist Manifesto revealed itself to be indisputably impractical and unrealistic."

How so?

"The feasibility of the communist utopia has not been realized yet,"

Of course not- a "communist utopia" is an oxymoron. Communism is a science. Utopia is an idealistic, non-materialist dream.

"nevertheless it remains a goal for the revisionists and reformists in socialist democracies such as Germany and Sweden"

No it doesn't, because they're not Marxists, which is precisely why what they CLAIM is their goal is actually utopian

"Even the intensely capitalistic and liberal democratic entity on the globe, the United States of America, submitted to socialist ethics and ideals in the 1930’s,"

Ah, no, it didn't.

"Although radical communism was not and may never be a feasible way of life for mankind,"

perhaps for those with a vested interest in class-based society

"Marxist reformers and socialists have embraced the proletariat and discovered peacefully democratic avenues of ‘revolution’."

Then they're NOT Marxists!

"These are results that even the critical personality of Karl Marx could not argue with. "

Perhaps if you read some Marx, you'd realise that he already has.

Seuno
21st January 2005, 23:42
Originally posted by [email protected] 20 2005, 01:20 AM

In short, the Communists everywhere support every revolutionary movement against the existing social and political order of things.

In all these movements, they bring to the front, as the leading question in each, the property question, no matter what its degree of development at the time.

Finally, they labour everywhere for the union and agreement of the democratic parties of all countries.

The Communists disdain to conceal their views and aims. They openly declare that their ends can be attained only by the forcible overthrow of all existing social conditions. Let the ruling classes tremble at a Communistic revolution. The proletarians have nothing to lose but their chains. They have a world to win.

Same source as in the previous post...emphasis added.

Efforts to make Marx and Engels into "vigorous reformists" by selective quotation are unlikely to be successful on this board. :)

:redstar2000:

The Redstar2000 Papers (http://www.redstar2000papers.fightcapitalism.net)
A site about communist ideas
Who were you responding to? ..... "middle of the road" is a debate over the correct answer to the question "the correct move for the correct time?"

redstar2000
23rd January 2005, 00:16
Originally posted by Seuno
Who were you responding to?

To you, of course.

In 1847, Europe was still in the midst of the period of bourgeois revolutions...and this is reflected in much of the immediate practical measures that are advocated in the Communist Manifesto.

Reformists who wish to pass themselves off as "Marxists" like to quote from those sections of the Manifesto precisely because they sound so "moderate" now -- 150 years later!

They particularly like to quote them to people who remain convinced of the revolutionary totality of the work of Marx and Engels.

And, as I noted, that is unlikely to be successful on this board.

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/123.gif

Seuno
23rd January 2005, 20:10
Originally posted by redstar2000+Jan 23 2005, 12:16 AM--> (redstar2000 @ Jan 23 2005, 12:16 AM)
Seuno
Who were you responding to?

To you, of course.

In 1847, Europe was still in the midst of the period of bourgeois revolutions...and this is reflected in much of the immediate practical measures that are advocated in the Communist Manifesto. "reflected in" :lol:

Reformists who wish to pass themselves off as "Marxists" like to quote from those sections of the Manifesto precisely because they sound so "moderate" now -- 150 years later! "moderate" :lol:

They particularly like to quote them to people who remain convinced of the revolutionary totality of the work of Marx and Engels. "revolutionary totality" :lol:

And, as I noted, that is unlikely to be successful on this board. "bourgeois" :lol: "communist bourgeois" :angry: We are to act to fullfill the momentary needs of the proletariat, not demand and receive all and do nothing until that happens. You're a shit head.

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/123.gif[/b]
:lol: =D

chebol
23rd January 2005, 22:33
Seuno wrote:
"We are to act to fullfill the momentary needs of the proletariat, not demand and receive all and do nothing until that happens."

Noone said anything about doing NOTHING. It's just a matter of WHAT and HOW. Also "there are circumstances in which one must have the courage to sacrifice momentary success for more important things."- letter to A. Bebel in Hubertusburg.
In fact, there is as much if not more danger in the other extreme. Pray tell, what are the momentary needs of the proletariat today that you can *fix* through reforms?

"You're a shit head."

Not very useful, eh?

redstar2000
24th January 2005, 00:10
Originally posted by Seuno
We are to act to fulfill the momentary needs of the proletariat, not demand and receive all and do nothing until that happens. You're a shit head.

Perhaps...but you are evidently something much worse: a reformist.

Moreover, a dishonest one at that...attempting to "cover" your reformism with some tatters of "Marxist" rhetoric.

If "momentary needs" concern you, consider charity work as an option.

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/123.gif

pandora
27th January 2005, 05:39
I've spent my time in charity work trying to suit "monentary needs" without a fundamental change to the structure of society and the money and economic system it's a dead end. Paying people to take care of people who are viewed as "human garbage" is not only disgusting, the numbers of unemployed and ill due to industrialization increase in technology and monopolies soon outweighs the numbers of those willing to do the work.

Plus :lol: less and less money is given as people become more and more greedy under capitalism and compete with the unemployed and real wages decrease. Following Marxist theories on this can be done with simple soical experiments with a group of people where you have half represent the unemployed and half represent the employed and one person is the manager and he competes the one half against the other for lower and lower wages until the workers are half-starved and the unemployed are starving.

This is the saddest part of Marxism to me, that as monopolies increase facism will rule our planet and many people will starve, more than now, in the competition between the employed and unemployed.

Marx was wise enough to see the baloney in Adam Smith's theory that wages would go up due to shortage of workers until workers reproduced :D

Anti-abortionists anyone :lol: Combining church and state to stress ABSTIENCE as the only choice for protection in the middle of an AIDS crisis, advertise having babies and housewives, ugh :angry: makes me sick! All to breed more workers to drive down wages, plus the decreases on leisure time and speeding up productivity and making GNP the measure of a society! All factors to make sure wages never increase!

But the real joke Marx saw, yes I know I'm preachin to the choir, was to increase technology so that productivity went up without workers and machines ran themselves :lol: Confirming that Adam Smith is bullshit, 'scuse my French.

As far as Utopias, I think it is telling that Bin Laden said, "if I wanted to attack freedom I would have attacked Sweden!"

But there can be no economic utopias in a world global economy, tariffs will be broken down it's part of the monopolozing effect. My hope is more people radicalize quicker and realize the gig is up. For myself I need to stop allowing my slavery as a wage servent to cripple my mind for social action, I must act towards my conscience even if it effects my stomach or I will go mad!

Seuno
28th January 2005, 00:50
Originally posted by [email protected] 23 2005, 10:33 PM
Seuno wrote:
"We are to act to fullfill the momentary needs of the proletariat, not demand and receive all and do nothing until that happens."

Noone said anything about doing NOTHING. It's just a matter of WHAT and HOW. Also "there are circumstances in which one must have the courage to sacrifice momentary success for more important things."- letter to A. Bebel in Hubertusburg.
In fact, there is as much if not more danger in the other extreme. Pray tell, what are the momentary needs of the proletariat today that you can *fix* through reforms?

"You're a shit head."

Not very useful, eh?
I wonder took so much time for these message notifiations to get to my mail box? Oh well.....Well, no-one says 'I am going to do nothing, do they. "It's a matter of what and how" no kidding, ay? Sacrifice success for more important things? Either it is a priority or not...Other extreme of what? Communism is a "reform" and your setting up your members for further abuses for me. I have heard that "reformist" accusation before. It is merely another expression for "a person who sees a need to changes things". You see the communist manifesto? Read the fucking thing then teach it.


"You're a shit head."

Not very useful, eh? No, you are not.

Seuno
28th January 2005, 00:56
Originally posted by redstar2000+Jan 24 2005, 12:10 AM--> (redstar2000 @ Jan 24 2005, 12:10 AM)
Seuno
We are to act to fulfill the momentary needs of the proletariat, not demand and receive all and do nothing until that happens. You're a shit head.

Perhaps...but you are evidently something much worse: a reformist.

Moreover, a dishonest one at that...attempting to "cover" your reformism with some tatters of "Marxist" rhetoric.

If "momentary needs" concern you, consider charity work as an option.

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/123.gif[/b]
Falling in line with your comrad, ay? "Reformist" Ha! And you are a rotting pile of shit going no where. If Karl Marxs 1848 communist manifesto is rhetoric then you are a bourgeois asshole.
"If "momentary needs" concern you, consider charity work as an option." Confirmed, you are a bourgeois asshole. :lol:

Seuno
28th January 2005, 01:03
Originally posted by [email protected] 27 2005, 05:39 AM
I've spent my time in charity work trying to suit "monentary needs" without a fundamental change to the structure of society and the money and economic system it's a dead end. Paying people to take care of people who are viewed as "human garbage" is not only disgusting, the numbers of unemployed and ill due to industrialization increase in technology and monopolies soon outweighs the numbers of those willing to do the work.

Plus :lol: less and less money is given as people become more and more greedy under capitalism and compete with the unemployed and real wages decrease. Following Marxist theories on this can be done with simple soical experiments with a group of people where you have half represent the unemployed and half represent the employed and one person is the manager and he competes the one half against the other for lower and lower wages until the workers are half-starved and the unemployed are starving.

This is the saddest part of Marxism to me, that as monopolies increase facism will rule our planet and many people will starve, more than now, in the competition between the employed and unemployed.

Marx was wise enough to see the baloney in Adam Smith's theory that wages would go up due to shortage of workers until workers reproduced :D

Anti-abortionists anyone :lol: Combining church and state to stress ABSTIENCE as the only choice for protection in the middle of an AIDS crisis, advertise having babies and housewives, ugh :angry: makes me sick! All to breed more workers to drive down wages, plus the decreases on leisure time and speeding up productivity and making GNP the measure of a society! All factors to make sure wages never increase!

But the real joke Marx saw, yes I know I'm preachin to the choir, was to increase technology so that productivity went up without workers and machines ran themselves :lol: Confirming that Adam Smith is bullshit, 'scuse my French.

As far as Utopias, I think it is telling that Bin Laden said, "if I wanted to attack freedom I would have attacked Sweden!"

But there can be no economic utopias in a world global economy, tariffs will be broken down it's part of the monopolozing effect. My hope is more people radicalize quicker and realize the gig is up. For myself I need to stop allowing my slavery as a wage servent to cripple my mind for social action, I must act towards my conscience even if it effects my stomach or I will go mad!
If you are disheartened then take a break. The voting masses won't change by magic and the proletariat is at a disadvantage in every respect. Human mind is first and least expensive, thing to change.

redstar2000
28th January 2005, 12:53
Originally posted by Seuno
And you are a rotting pile of shit going no where. If Karl Marx's 1848 Communist Manifesto is rhetoric then you are a bourgeois asshole.

Clearly I am hopelessly unequipped to reach the lofty heights of what you consider intelligent discourse.

Chebol responded in detail to the piece of reformist crap that began this thread; I notice that you had no response to him.

Is he also "a rotting pile of shit"?

I did not say, of course, that the Communist Manifesto is "rhetoric". I said that portions of it reflect the historical period in which it was written...a period of bourgeois revolutions.

And I made the obvious point that whenever reformists want to "polish up" their "Marxist credentials", those are precisely the portions of the Manifesto that they like to quote from.

As you have done.

There's nothing wrong about being an honest reformist...we have a number of them on the board.

But as I'm now informing you for the third time, trying to wrap yourself in the mantle of Marx is not going to work.

Not even with megabytes of scatological rhetoric thrown in.

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/123.gif

Seuno
28th January 2005, 23:24
Originally posted by redstar2000+Jan 28 2005, 12:53 PM--> (redstar2000 @ Jan 28 2005, 12:53 PM)
Seuno
And you are a rotting pile of shit going no where. If Karl Marx's 1848 Communist Manifesto is rhetoric then you are a bourgeois asshole.

Clearly I am hopelessly unequipped to reach the lofty heights of what you consider intelligent discourse.

Chebol responded in detail to the piece of reformist crap that began this thread; I notice that you had no response to him.

Is he also "a rotting pile of shit"?

I did not say, of course, that the Communist Manifesto is "rhetoric". I said that portions of it reflect the historical period in which it was written...a period of bourgeois revolutions.

And I made the obvious point that whenever reformists want to "polish up" their "Marxist credentials", those are precisely the portions of the Manifesto that they like to quote from.

As you have done.

There's nothing wrong about being an honest reformist...we have a number of them on the board.

But as I'm now informing you for the third time, trying to wrap yourself in the mantle of Marx is not going to work.

Not even with megabytes of scatological rhetoric thrown in.

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/123.gif[/b]
Quote Marx and stop your defense posturing. You haven't quoted Marx once and you are the one with the greatest degree of personal attack and the smallest degree factual presentation. "Chebol"? I shall have a look.

Seuno
28th January 2005, 23:36
Originally posted by [email protected] 21 2005, 05:39 AM
"Although the actions of a select few may have tainted Marxist politics forever in the eyes of liberal democrats"

The ideas of Marx and Engels tainted Marxist politics in the eyes of "liberal democrats". They didn't need bureaucrats and murderers like Stalin and Mao to do that. Marxism is opposed to 'liberal democracy'.

"Although historical Marxists have a long rap sheet of human rights violations and economic malaise,"

What, as opposed to capitalism? feudalism? slavery? despotism? "liberal democracy"?

"the theories set out by Karl Marx remain idealistic and provide an ethical vision rivaled by few."

No, the theories set out by Karl Marx remain SCIENTIFIC and OPPOSED to IDEALISM.

"Although it may have been difficult to separate the ‘haves’ and the ‘have-nots’ in industrialized countries with large, prospering middle classes during the middle of the twentieth century"

Perhaps to the naked eye, but using MARXIST ANALYSIS it's not so hard- who owns the means of production & who doesn't.

"Strictly human behavioral tendencies such as greed and individualism do not lend themselves to the goals of any communist regime."

I think you mean "strict (or not so strict) human behavioural tendencies under CAPITALISM". Where is your proof that these are fundamental to human nature?

"Many proponents of liberal democracy assert that their preferred form of government, along with the capitalist market economy, provides the essential freedoms that man desires, such as those listed by English political philosopher John Locke; these are “life, liberty, and property”. These three concepts gave birth to the foremost revolutions of the modern political age, those of France and the American states."

The same capitalist system which is responsible for the continuing oppression and suffering of the vast majority of humanity, and the same states that are central to maintaining that oppression. Freedom, yes, but only to exploit or be exploited.

"the answer given by The Communist Manifesto revealed itself to be indisputably impractical and unrealistic."

How so?

"The feasibility of the communist utopia has not been realized yet,"

Of course not- a "communist utopia" is an oxymoron. Communism is a science. Utopia is an idealistic, non-materialist dream.

"nevertheless it remains a goal for the revisionists and reformists in socialist democracies such as Germany and Sweden"

No it doesn't, because they're not Marxists, which is precisely why what they CLAIM is their goal is actually utopian

"Even the intensely capitalistic and liberal democratic entity on the globe, the United States of America, submitted to socialist ethics and ideals in the 1930’s,"

Ah, no, it didn't.

"Although radical communism was not and may never be a feasible way of life for mankind,"

perhaps for those with a vested interest in class-based society

"Marxist reformers and socialists have embraced the proletariat and discovered peacefully democratic avenues of ‘revolution’."

Then they're NOT Marxists!

"These are results that even the critical personality of Karl Marx could not argue with. "

Perhaps if you read some Marx, you'd realise that he already has.
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http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works...ifesto/ch04.htm (http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1848/communist-manifesto/ch04.htm)

Section II has made clear the relations of the Communists to the existing working-class parties, such as the Chartists in England and the Agrarian Reformers in America.

[The Communists fight for the attainment of the immediate aims, for the enforcement of the momentary interests of the working class; but in the movement of the present, they also represent and take care of the future of that movement. In France, the Communists ally with the Social-Democrats(1) against the conservative and radical bourgeoisie, reserving, however, the right to take up a critical position in regard to phases and illusions traditionally handed down from the great Revolution. ]

In Switzerland, they support the Radicals, without losing sight of the fact that this party consists of antagonistic elements, partly of Democratic Socialists, in the French sense, partly of radical bourgeois.

In Poland, they support the party that insists on an agrarian revolution as the prime condition for national emancipation, that party which fomented the insurrection of Cracow in 1846.

In Germany, they fight with the bourgeoisie whenever it acts in a revolutionary way, against the absolute monarchy, the feudal squirearchy, and the petty bourgeoisie.

But they never cease, for a single instant, to instill into the working class the clearest possible recognition of the hostile antagonism between bourgeoisie and proletariat, in order that the German workers may straightway use, as so many weapons against the bourgeoisie, the social and political conditions that the bourgeoisie must necessarily introduce along with its supremacy, and in order that, after the fall of the reactionary classes in Germany, the fight against the bourgeoisie itself may immediately begin.

The Communists turn their attention chiefly to Germany, because that country is on the eve of a bourgeois revolution that is bound to be carried out under more advanced conditions of European civilisation and with a much more developed proletariat than that of England was in the seventeenth, and France in the eighteenth century, and because the bourgeois revolution in Germany will be but the prelude to an immediately following proletarian revolution.

In short, the Communists everywhere support every revolutionary movement against the existing social and political order of things.

In all these movements, they bring to the front, as the leading question in each, the property question, no matter what its degree of development at the time.

Finally, they labour everywhere for the union and agreement of the democratic parties of all countries.

The Communists disdain to conceal their views and aims. They openly declare that their ends can be attained only by the forcible overthrow of all existing social conditions. Let the ruling classes tremble at a Communistic revolution. The proletarians have nothing to lose but their chains. They have a world to win.







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(1) The party then represented in Parliament by Ledru-Rollin, in literature by Louis Blanc, in the daily press by the Réforme. The name of Social-Democracy signifies, with these its inventors, a section of the Democratic or Republican Party more or less tinged with socialism. [Engels, English Edition 1888]

Seuno
28th January 2005, 23:45
Originally posted by [email protected] 17 2005, 08:59 PM
It is apparent throughout history that intellectual breakthroughs in science, economics, and philosophy, are constantly condemned at the time of their conception, and for many years after. The same goes for political science. Even the American revolutionaries of the late 18th century were hailed as radicals at the beginning of the revolutionary period. Today, we can question the revolutions and politics of the past in three different methods. In the science of politics, we have three criteria in which to judge the ‘soundness’ of political acts and actors. Students of the political realm must consider ethical importance, empirical evidence, and prudential values when examining events. If we apply these measures to political acts and actors, can we not evaluate political theorists in the same way? In using these criteria, and examining the thought of late 19th century political thinker Karl Marx, one must consider him to be a significant figure, if not the most noteworthy political philosopher, with continuing influence over entire continents and generations.

The Communist Manifesto, written and published in 1848, remains one of the most influential writings in history, for both its ethics and the actions that it inspired. While being propagandistic in its tone, and clear in its message to all workers to consolidate and unite against the oppression of capitalist economics, the manifest of the Communist Party retains an ethical component not to be denied. Many liberal politicians may criticize the practical ideas of Karl Marx and followers such as Russian Bolshevik leader Vladimir Lenin, but proponents of the ‘revolution’ consistently refer to the moral values and goals laid out by Marx and Friedrich Engels in the manifesto. Although the actions of a select few may have tainted Marxist politics forever in the eyes of liberal democrats, the actual ethical principles held by Karl Marx are undeniably utopian and positive in value.

The liberation and emancipation of the human race as a whole is a pure and true dream and an ideal worth striving for. Liberals and conservatives hold this belief as strongly as Karl Marx did during his study of the capitalist system and its indubitable dark side. The philosophes of previous generations and revolutions stated the human liberty is only possible through cooperation in a governing body to set and abide by rule of law. Government was to restrain the destructive urges of man and point them in a constructive direction without infringing on his or her desires. Although this idea of liberty as stated by Thomas Hobbes and John Locke came to fruition during the American Revolution and constitutional period, a system of laissez-faire economics became an indisputable contributor to the liberal democratic revolutions of the time. Like the representative democracy, free market economics sought to allow individuals the freedom and liberty to pursue sustenance independently in order to harness the creative ability of man to prosper in and adapt to different market conditions and prices. But the ability of a select few to dominate others is something that fits well into the capitalist system; Marx saw this as unjust as slave ownership. Karl Marx and his materialist approach to history and politics enlightened the world to a concept that had not been actively explored before, which is the concept of economic freedom, supposedly provided by laissez-faire economies. Although historical Marxists have a long rap sheet of human rights violations and economic malaise, the theories set out by Karl Marx remain idealistic and provide an ethical vision rivaled by few.

Marx declared that the dark side of free market system is that it can allow individuals to not only rise, but dominate and exploit others. This statement is ethical in nature and is undeniably correct. After years of empirical and sociological study of Marxist views, the capitalist system of exploitation does not provide liberty. It is a stratified and closed system in which each generation is subject to the identical conditions and limited opportunities as the one that came before. Concisely, the ‘liberty’ to move up and down the socioeconomic ladder is restricted in the modern capitalist structure. Marx’s communist ideal, utopian in vision, erases this ladder completely, allowing for all of humanity to build its ladder together, leaving no man or group behind.

Marx’s empirical judgments about the stratification system that, in his analysis, divides society into a ruling capitalist class and a proletariat, or working class, has influenced empirical politics and sociology. His materialist approach to history has provided social scientists with a greater understanding of class revolutions and the development of civilization. Empirically, Marx’s theory is proved correct to a certain extent with the advent of the global market. Although it may have been difficult to separate the ‘haves’ and the ‘have-nots’ in industrialized countries with large, prospering middle classes during the middle of the twentieth century, the globalization of the economy has magnified the exploitative tendencies of capitalism so that an educated populace can easily determine the lessened reality of economic freedom under the fully developed capitalist system. Today’s world of political and economic domination by a plutocratic few supports both Marx’s materialist approach to social science and his empirical statements about the capitalist ruling class.

There is strong empirical and ethical value and soundness to the philosophy of Karl Marx. Although his theories may be both empirically valid and idealistic, the actual feasibility of the ideas expressed in The Communist Manifesto must be discussed. Many critics of social democracy and the dream of Marxist utopia believe that parts of human nature that communism endeavors to liberate also renders the reality of the communist state to be illusory. Strictly human behavioral tendencies such as greed and individualism do not lend themselves to the goals of any communist regime. Many proponents of liberal democracy assert that their preferred form of government, along with the capitalist market economy, provides the essential freedoms that man desires, such as those listed by English political philosopher John Locke; these are “life, liberty, and property”. These three concepts gave birth to the foremost revolutions of the modern political age, those of France and the American states. But what of the freedom guaranteed by Marxism? Does the communist revolution provide the economic freedom that is denied by capitalism?

The examples of communism witnessed in the twentieth century could not provide that freedom. Although Marx concurred with eighteenth century political philosopher Jean-Jacques Rousseau in that private property is a source of discord throughout human history, the answer given by The Communist Manifesto revealed itself to be indisputably impractical and unrealistic. In the course of the ‘revolution’, it was proved that no dictatorship of the proletariat could predict historical events or a population’s demand without oppression of certain rights such as freedom of the press and speech. Another mistake in Marx’s dialectic is the refusal of Marx and Engels to recognize the unique capability of the state to regulate and adjust the laissez-faire economy in order to benefit and appease the proletariat. Nor could he predict the damage that a world war could inflict on the possibility of a global worker’s organization. Such was the case in the Great War.

The case for the prudential value of the Marxian communist ideal is as thus. The true communist revolution remains to be demonstrated. No country that has attempted a communist revolution experienced the situation that Marx envisioned as the economic state that would foster such a conversion. Neither czarist Russia nor the agrarian nations of China and Cuba possessed the industrial capability to produce sustenance for its people. In Marx’s state, the industrial economy of the evil capitalists would overproduce while still exploit the working class with high prices and long working hours. The revolutionaries of the twentieth century endeavored to create a communist state in economically backward nations. One must give this historical truth recognition when considering the importance of Marxist thought. The feasibility of the communist utopia has not been realized yet, nevertheless it remains a goal for the revisionists and reformists in socialist democracies such as Germany and Sweden. Some economic concepts that Marx brings to light in his writings, such as public ownership of industry and distribution of national product have been staples of a few nations in combating the marginalization of the working class by plutocratic capitalism.

Even the intensely capitalistic and liberal democratic entity on the globe, the United States of America, submitted to socialist ethics and ideals in the 1930’s, when the huge surpluses produced drove prices down and the debt bubble burst. Redistribution of income, government support for public construction projects reflected socialist ideals while causing some members of the corporate class to believe that President Roosevelt was converting to communism. Although radical communism was not and may never be a feasible way of life for mankind, Marxist reformers and socialists have embraced the proletariat and discovered peacefully democratic avenues of ‘revolution’. Empirically, these revisionist actors in the German and Swedish republics still encounter the hills and valleys of the capitalist economy, but have nevertheless made vast strides in other areas such as significantly reduced illiteracy rate and most importantly, a socioeconomic system with increased social mobility for the working and lower classes. These are results that even the critical personality of Karl Marx could not argue with.
[QUOTE]
http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works...ifesto/ch03.htm (http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1848/communist-manifesto/ch03.htm)
2. Conservative or Bourgeois Socialism
A part of the bourgeoisie is desirous of redressing social grievances in order to secure the continued existence of bourgeois society.

To this section belong economists, philanthropists, humanitarians, improvers of the condition of the working class, organisers of charity, members of societies for the prevention of cruelty to animals, temperance fanatics, hole-and-corner reformers of every imaginable kind. This form of socialism has, moreover, been worked out into complete systems.

We may cite Proudhon’s Philosophis de la Misère as an example of this form.

The Socialistic bourgeois want all the advantages of modern social conditions without the struggles and dangers necessarily resulting therefrom. They desire the existing state of society, minus its revolutionary and disintegrating elements. They wish for a bourgeoisie without a proletariat. The bourgeoisie naturally conceives the world in which it is supreme to be the best; and bourgeois Socialism develops this comfortable conception into various more or less complete systems. In requiring the proletariat to carry out such a system, and thereby to march straightway into the social New Jerusalem, it but requires in reality, that the proletariat should remain within the bounds of existing society, but should cast away all its hateful ideas concerning the bourgeoisie.

A second, and more practical, but less systematic, form of this Socialism sought to depreciate every revolutionary movement in the eyes of the working class by showing that no mere political reform, but only a change in the material conditions of existence, in economical relations, could be of any advantage to them. By changes in the material conditions of existence, this form of Socialism, however, by no means understands abolition of the bourgeois relations of production, an abolition that can be affected only by a revolution, but administrative reforms, based on the continued existence of these relations; reforms, therefore, that in no respect affect the relations between capital and labour, but, at the best, lessen the cost, and simplify the administrative work, of bourgeois government.

Bourgeois Socialism attains adequate expression when, and only when, it becomes a mere figure of speech.

Free trade: for the benefit of the working class. Protective duties: for the benefit of the working class. Prison Reform: for the benefit of the working class. This is the last word and the only seriously meant word of bourgeois socialism.

It is summed up in the phrase: the bourgeois is a bourgeois — for the benefit of the working class.

Seuno
28th January 2005, 23:56
Originally posted by [email protected] 20 2005, 01:20 AM

In short, the Communists everywhere support every revolutionary movement against the existing social and political order of things.

In all these movements, they bring to the front, as the leading question in each, the property question, no matter what its degree of development at the time.

Finally, they labour everywhere for the union and agreement of the democratic parties of all countries.

The Communists disdain to conceal their views and aims. They openly declare that their ends can be attained only by the forcible overthrow of all existing social conditions. Let the ruling classes tremble at a Communistic revolution. The proletarians have nothing to lose but their chains. They have a world to win.

Same source as in the previous post...emphasis added.

Efforts to make Marx and Engels into "vigorous reformists" by selective quotation are unlikely to be successful on this board. :)

:redstar2000:

The Redstar2000 Papers (http://www.redstar2000papers.fightcapitalism.net)
A site about communist ideas

In short, the Communists everywhere support every revolutionary movement against the existing social and political order of things.

In all these movements, they bring to the front, as the leading question in each, the property question, no matter what its degree of development at the time.

Finally, they labour everywhere for the union and agreement of the democratic parties of all countries.

The Communists disdain to conceal their views and aims. They openly declare that their ends can be attained only by the forcible overthrow of all existing social conditions. Let the ruling classes tremble at a Communistic revolution. The proletarians have nothing to lose but their chains. They have a world to win.

It is assumed that the reader shall naturally infer the meaning of the word "forcible" as equalling "armed attack" and that "force" is required for legitimate "revolution".