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refuse_resist
17th January 2005, 00:57
WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The United States has been conducting secret reconnaissance missions inside Iran to help identify potential nuclear, chemical and missile targets, The New Yorker magazine reported Sunday.

The article, by award-winning reporter Seymour Hersh, said the secret missions have been going on at least since last summer with the goal of identifying target information for three dozen or more suspected sites.

Hersh quotes one government consultant with close ties to the Pentagon as saying, "The civilians in the Pentagon want to go into Iran and destroy as much of the military infrastructure as possible."

Continued (http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20050116/ts_nm/iran_usa_newyorker_dc)

Rage Against the Right
17th January 2005, 01:28
Are all of Hersh's statements creditable? I think so. He was right last time at the powers that be wouldn't lsiten to him and that's probably the scenario again. I'm sure that what Bush meant to say by stopping terrorism was instill puppet governments in oil producing companies and reap the benefits. With the dwindling number of troops and the enlistment rate dropping quickly, it seems to me Bush will try and justify a draft.

NovelGentry
17th January 2005, 01:52
The two most recent draft bills were actually pushed by democrats. It should be noted the latest bill, which I'm not sure has come out of draft and actually been proposed yet is a conscription bill. This is different than a draft, in basically stating that all men between a certain age would serve at least one tour of duty, or something to that effect.

Bill HR163 from 2003-2004 (108th Congress)

http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/ge...:h163ih.txt.pdf (http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=108_cong_bills&docid=f:h163ih.txt.pdf) (link should work)

To my understanding this bill is still sitting about in the house of reps there has been no action to push it through, or to turn it down. So it's something of a sleeping duck at the moment.

Commie Rat
17th January 2005, 02:01
well they will probably find WMD's and then they will majickally dissapear after they invade iran :lol:

NyChe21
17th January 2005, 15:38
Yeah, I kno, those 'aluminum canisters' are realllllly scarrrrrry. I would love to see the government institute a draft. Really, I would like to see them try it. We could hold a huge draft card burning in DC, what a beautiful site it would be. :D

Exploited Class
17th January 2005, 16:55
"The civilians in the Pentagon want to go into Iran and destroy as much of the military infrastructure as possible."

I really want to focus on that sentence. Why so important to say, "civilians". That is a very odd spin to put on this. The civilians.... So uncomfortable.

Iran talked about the US doing these secret missions within its borders only a few months ago and even stated that they felt justified in doing a pre-emptive style attack against the US occupying forces in Iraq, because of such actions.

KrazyRabidSheep
18th January 2005, 03:55
For a while many people have suspected Iran shall be Bush's next target.

Recently I've seen articles about Seymour Hersh, and how he has published evidence about U.S. recon in Eastern Iran.

Where can I find this? I haven't been able to find it, just articles about the administration's denials. (such as http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4181325.stm )

Is Bush truley this crazy? I know that if anybody, he is. . .still, it is hard to believe anyone is that nuts (and stupid)

Iran is more united the Iraq or Afganistan. Iran has a real Airforce.

The U.S. troops are spread somewhat thin as is, and to keep the ranks filled, a draft may be nessessary. The public backlash against such military actions are bound to be great, in the U.S. and abroad. A draft would make it so much worse.

I used to think Bush was like Nixon, crazy and parinoid. He is starting to act more like Hitler, crazy, parinoid, and annexing (or "liberating". . .the exact term the Hitler used) every nation is sight.

Is the U.S. destined to fight in WWIII, on the other side?

Wurkwurk
18th January 2005, 04:13
Good god, I hope he dosen't invade. If he does, they'll have to defenitley be a draft, because Iran is about four times larger than Iraq land and population wise.

Bush is a crazy paranoid freak if he entertains the thought. Seriously though, I don't think that that would happen. It's just too much for the US military to handle, not the mention the severe political backlash.

Rage Against the Right
18th January 2005, 04:29
This post was already made, scroll a little ways, it adresses all these issues you present.

Purple
18th January 2005, 06:45
Iran used to be one of the most liberal of the muslim countries before the revolution, but now its quite horrible there. A change of goverment would be good, but the Americans would just do more bad than good, with their "ways".
My fiancè and her family had to move from Iran, because it was to hard for her to pretend she was muslim just to go to school, aswell as female oppression everywhere, and very strict rules, as their "religion is the law". Its also illegal to move from the country, and rebel leaders will be executed.
Going back to visit my girl's family soon, kinda curious about it..

Non-Sectarian Bastard!
18th January 2005, 08:36
Merged the two Iran threads.

NyChe21
18th January 2005, 17:17
When is the United State going to learn that some situations DO NOT call for American democracy. The American democratic system itself is somewhat outdated (separated bureaucracy, electoral college) and it developed from a very particular situation with an already relatively eqalitarian society that valued capitalism :angry: . They also had a relatively clean slate to work with after the revolution and impending conquest of Native Americans, these middle eastern and even African countries have long histories of ethnic nationalism that were exploited and alienated for 200 years(similar situations resided in Latin America as well). Embracing them under a shadow of military might and the unique American democratic principles is only asking for conflict. But then again, capitalists just love the idea of wartime economy. Pricks.

Severian
18th January 2005, 17:22
Originally posted by Exploited [email protected] 17 2005, 10:55 AM

"The civilians in the Pentagon want to go into Iran and destroy as much of the military infrastructure as possible."

I really want to focus on that sentence. Why so important to say, "civilians". That is a very odd spin to put on this. The civilians.... So uncomfortable.
Meaning these plans are coming from Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, etc., rather from the generals.

Hersh's leaks are probably coming from military officers who oppose some of the Bush administration's policies...the military, as well as agencies like the CIA and FBI, are becoming highly factionalized along partisan lines. That's a reason to take some of it with a grain of salt, IMO, that his sources have their own factional agenda, though much of it's probably true.

*****

As for the news itself: I would guess the Bush administration is looking for ways to pressure Iran (and Syria, and North Korea) short of full-scale invasion. These "recon" missions would be an example.

They're really not in a position to carry out another such invasion and occupation until they can greatly reduce troop levels in Iraq or greatly expand the army...the latter, they're trying to do by increasing pay and enlistment incentives, not by a draft which would greatly reduce the combat effectiveness and morale of their army.

It seems they hoped that the Iraq invasion would scare everyone else into bowing down before Washington...to a degree it has, e.g. Libya. But with so many troops tied up in Iraq, the threat of full-scale invasion has become less credible and less scary to Iran or north Korea.

And on the other hand, the Bush administration has been determined to get away from the Clinton style of lobbing a few cruise missiles at some country as if that was going to change their behavior let alone their regime....really, I don't think anyone in U.S. capitalist politics still thinks that's an effective policy.

So that leaves the Bush administration with a bit of a policy dilemma, and they seemingly trying to find something in between...special forces ops, covert ops, possibly support to Iranian opposition groups could be part of this, maybe even a large-scale bombing campaign.

Severian
24th January 2005, 23:32
Here's another interesting leak about Iran. (http://www.mg.co.za/articledirect.aspx?area=mg_flat&articleid=195918)

It claims the U.S. is preparing, maybe already beginning, to sponsor infiltration by the MKO Iranian opposition group based in Iraq.

Danielle
25th January 2005, 14:37
I have long felt that war with Iran would be a possibility and that Iran would be most likely be nuclear armed and have a better military. Due to the fact that they haven't been under the sanctions for 10 years like Iraq. But I find it odd still that a country like America wants to go to war with another country over weaponry that they have limitless access too.

acg4_9
25th January 2005, 21:09
i think if bush took this step it i'll be like the invasion of poland by hitler and the ww3 will officially start cause if you think alqa'ada or the ba'ath party are dangerous try seeing the shia'ats when they become mad you are speaking of more than 100 million suicide bomber that think that the west represnted by U.S are the devil. as much i hate innocent people to die as much i like to see those two facist goverments destroy themselves and by this way we get rid of two imperialic goverments one wants to complete controlling the world and the other wants to rebuild the persian empire in an islamic radicalic dress.

Marxist in Nebraska
27th January 2005, 18:31
Originally posted by Exploited [email protected] 17 2005, 11:55 AM

"The civilians in the Pentagon want to go into Iran and destroy as much of the military infrastructure as possible."

I really want to focus on that sentence. Why so important to say, "civilians". That is a very odd spin to put on this. The civilians.... So uncomfortable.
'Lo, EC.

By "civilians", they mean neo-con ideologues like Paul Wolfowitz and Douglas Feith. These men are imperialists and militarists of the most severe variety. They have never served a day of their life in the military. That is why they are called civilians.

This is to distinguish them from the generals and retired ex-generals--lifelong soldiers, essentially. Generally speaking (no pun intended), those who have been in the military--and especially those who have seen combat--are more reluctant to start wars than those who have only seen them glossed over on TV. Generals are typically pragmatic, and slow to start new wars.

The eager aggression of the neo-con "chickenhawks" (after all, they avoided Vietnam like the plague) stands in stark contrast to the attitude of the military men.

The political objective of "destroy[ing] as much of the military infrastructure as possible" in Iran should be pretty obvious. Iran is a moderately powerful state in the Middle East, which is the world's oil spigot. U.S. policy for 50 years has been to dominate the world's source of energy, which means to control overtly or covertly the Middle East.

Iran itself was a key client under the shah. Since the removal of the shah, Iran has been out of the U.S.'s control. This has made imperialists here quite uncomfortable since 1979. Iran has been very high on the official enemy list ever since. Saddam Hussein was armed and supported because he was devastating Iran during the Iran-Iraq war (1980-88).

With U.S. hegemony over the world perhaps starting to slip away (the European Union and a burgeoning East Asian bloc are challenging U.S. domination), and an especially ambitious and ruthless regime in power here, we are seeing something of a clampdown. The U.S. has, again, dominated the region since the end of World War II, but we are seeing the empire tightening its grip.

Iraq has been blatantly colonized. There are few examples in U.S. history of such blatant, naked imperialism. And in addition to Iran, most of the other rebellious Middle Eastern states are high on the Bush administration's hit list.

But going back to Iran. American militarism/imperialism has a peculiar, perhaps unique characteristic to it. Military aggression is only permissible when it will provide minimal danger to American soldiers. Iraq was an easy choice for invasion because it was perhaps the weakest state in the region in 2003.

Iran is different. At the moment, Iran is capable of putting up a modest defense. It surely would be no match for the overwhelming might of the U.S. war machine, but thousands of American soldiers would die. The cost is unacceptable. Military action is off the table concerning North Korea for the same reason.

Though it seems there are strong tendencies to get Iran back in the orbit of the American Empire. Thus, Iran must be neutered. The U.S. will not start a war until Iran is incapable of fighting back. Thus, perhaps three dozen commando strikes (I am paraphrasing Hersh's article to get that number) may be carried out to terminate Iran's WMD and missile capacity.

If this is done, I would expect them to also disable Iran's anti-air defenses (whatever they are). Then Iran would be at the mercy of America's overwhelming air superiority. At which point, the U.S. would have its preferred method of warfare as an option: bombing with impunity.

It is not clear from what I have seen whether all-out regime change is desired. That would be desirable on ideological grounds for Bush, et al., but a broken and grovelling theocracy bending to U.S. imperial desires would have essentially the same material gain.

Severian
27th January 2005, 19:08
Here's another article - UPI (http://www.wpherald.com/storyview.php?StoryID=20050126-045615-4690r)

Which also says the US is using the MEK, as well as Iraqi Kurds, for missions into Iran. Note that the US officially describes the MEK as a terrorist organization, and it was sponsored by Hussein's Iraq for many years. Probably true as it's being reported in multiple media outlets.

Also alleges the USAF is making flights over Iran to identify air defenses.

In some ways this starts to look oddly like Clinton's bombing-only war against Yugoslavia...with a much larger covert ops/ special forces component.

Guerrilla22
27th January 2005, 21:31
The United States is running secret missions into every country. I wouldn't doubt it if the CIA was roaming around Canada looking for WMDs, Bin Laden or whatever.