Outsmarted by Castro?

[Cuban Soldier]

Rumors say that Castro was the one who gave the orders to not send reinforcements to aid Che as he executed an attack in Bolivia. Rumors say Castro did this because he felt that Che was a threat to his supreme leadership and authority over Cuba's control. I believe it, because it happens to be, that in that same attack, Che asked for Castro to join him in the battlefield. Castro's excuse was that there was political tasks that were left to be accomplished back in Cuba, and that "unfortunately" he wasn't going to be able to join him. So Che executes the attack, asks for his back up, and then "The man" sitting on his ass handling "Political tasks" orders the reinforcements to move out. Now, doesn't that just seem a little too fishy? I think that there's too many coincidences (I dont know how to spell it). So what do you all think? Did Castro really outsmart the great Ernesto Che Guevara becasuse of his weakness to put his trust within castro?

[choekiewoekie]

It is a hard question to answer, because it is almost impossible to really found out what happened, but the situation you described sounds plausible.
I do believe che was left alone by castro, and that castro failed him.
But i don't think you can call it 'outsmarting'. Che trusted castro, but i think he actually knew what was going on.
Ofcourse i don't know for sure, but the situation that che knew he was going to die in bolivia and that he was send there almost as a death trip, sounds also plausible to me. In other words, i think he knew castro send him there with not the best intentions, and he went anyway. Out of loyalty. Thats my idea... but it is just a feeling..

[Knowledge 6 6 6]

Castro = Machiavellian leader

Che = A good friend and died for the cause.

Together = someone getting fucked over in the end.

Too bad it was Che.

[Colombia]

It is well known that Ernesto's radio for communicating with Cuba was damaged in an attack so Castro could not have helped him at all because he had no idea where Ernesto was.

[Knowledge 6 6 6]

I'm sure if Castro wanted to help Che out, he would've done whatever he could.

But he didn't, he was looking out for Fidel and making sure he was still leader of Cuba.

[Severian]

WTF? You started this same thread just a little while ago. Do you imagine history has changed in the past week, or are you just hoping people will get tired of refuting these baseless CIA-initiated slanders against the Cuban revolution?

Read the sticky thread on the "Death of Che Guevara". And please, somebody explain what exactly Castro was supposed to do, drop a batallion of paratroopers?

[filimarxist]

Can anyone explain how Castro would feel Che threatened his power? For fuck sakes Che resigned his position as head of industry and his post as an offcier in the army. Not to mention Che relinquished his Cuban citizenship. How would anyone think Che was trying to edge out Castro when he makes such moves? You people have too much time in your hands.

[Wiesty]

castro was not asked to join the battle

[Knowledge 6 6 6]

Originally posted by [email protected] 23 2005, 12:37 AM
Can anyone explain how Castro would feel Che threatened his power? For fuck sakes Che resigned his position as head of industry and his post as an offcier in the army. Not to mention Che relinquished his Cuban citizenship. How would anyone think Che was trying to edge out Castro when he makes such moves? You people have too much time in your hands.
Sigh...

Che wasn't concerned with being the leader of Cuba. It wasn't in his nature to be the president, or whatever. Castro was. If you've studied Castro, you'd know that he would do away with anyone who helped him get to power. The most evident example of this would be Guevara.

Che was an international threat to capitalism. Castro wasn't. He was content with Cuba, as long as he was in power and leader of the nation. Che was a bigger threat than Castro was, and the CIA saw it.

Castro could've done many things if he honestly had concern about Che's welfare - he could've sent more troops to help him out (of course they'd have to be retrained, but it would've made things much easier in terms of carrying capacity and mobilization between places).

Castro could've made speeches in defense of Ernesto, instead of attributing him to some iconic figure. He always mentioned Che in speeches to help ignite the masses.

Castro is a man who looked out for himself. A man who never cared about any friends he had...more importantly, was making sure he had his place in the presidency. He had a hidden agenda, and Che knew it. It was too late, because when Rodriguez captured him, he knew Castro would be nowhere to be found.

Fidel betrayed Che by reading his farewell letter before Che died. And you think Castro didn't know anything?

Go back and read more.

[NovelGentry]

Fidel betrayed Che by reading his farewell letter before Che died. And you think Castro didn't know anything?

I've addressed this a billion times. The letter was NOT meant to be read only after he died.

Read the damn letter, why would a dead man have to say this:


I formally renounce my posts in the leadership of the Party, my post as Minister, my rank as Major, my status as a Cuban citizen. Nothing legal binds me to Cuba, only ties of another kind that cannot be broken, as can official appointments.

???

The letter was written in the event that Che died, or in the event that political pressure was building up because of HIS actions elsewhere. Fidel read it for the latter reason. Granted a lot earlier than Che may have wanted, but it was not a "betrayal," as you so gently put it.

Yet more quotes which show the nature of the letter:


Other regions of the world claim the support of my modest efforts. I can do what is forbidden to you because of your responsibility to Cuba, and the time has come for us to separate.


I say once more that I free Cuba of any responsibility save that which stems from its example

It seems to me that 99% of the people who always talk about how Castro betrayed Che are those that dislike Castro, but want to like Che. Give it a rest -- there's plenty of documentation including Che's own diary which explains the situation.

[Karl Marx's Camel]

Ofcourse i don't know for sure, but the situation that che knew he was going to die in bolivia and that he was send there almost as a death trip, sounds also plausible to me.

Guerilla movements in the early stages are used to be in such conditions.



Castro = Machiavellian leader

Che = A good friend and died for the cause

Why so?

Che wasn't exactly "soft" on his enemies, either. Ever heard of La Cabaña Fortress? The trials?

[Knowledge 6 6 6]

Ugh...

Yes, I've read Che's diaries, both in the Congo, Bolivia and in South America. And yes, I've read a lot about the la Cabana fortress..

Novel Gentry, I've heard the same response a billion times. Che resigned those positions because, if you even read my post, he was an international threat to capitalism. He relinquished his, as the letter stated, ties with Cuba that were 'legally binding'. All formal shit that he once held there was gone. He wasn't a Cuban citizen, he was a representative of oppressed ppl everywhere.

He didn't want to be associated with JUST Cuba. He wanted more - he wanted to make an international effect, which he did.

NotWeirdOnlyGifted, you question why I think Castro is a Machiavellian leader. I'll tell you why - because Castro's a dictator. A man who thinks new farms grow on trees (no pun intended), and that exportation can go sky high. He's a man who, in my opinion, knew about Che dying before it happened. Had Fidel concerned himself genuinely with Che, he would've fought alongside his battles, and take on capitalism everywhere. But he didn't. He sat back...watched the world grow from the Cold War era to the now neo-liberalized globalization era. Castro is a man who sat back and grew old with Cuba, while she suffered. Che was a man who wanted socialism to exist everywhere...too bad Castro didn't want the same.

Novel Gentry, you say that I dislike Castro and want to like Che. They were not the same person, in fact very different. You Castro loyalists always overlook the amount of shit that man did...the hidden agendas he had and the strict demand on his country's production. If you don't see this...I feel sorry for you...Castro's not such a great man as you may think.

[NovelGentry]

Novel Gentry, I've heard the same response a billion times. Che resigned those positions because, if you even read my post, he was an international threat to capitalism. He relinquished his, as the letter stated, ties with Cuba that were 'legally binding'. All formal shit that he once held there was gone. He wasn't a Cuban citizen, he was a representative of oppressed ppl everywhere.

You're missing the point. The statements in the letter would not have to be made by a dead man. Thus, if the letter was only to be read when he was dead, half of it would not make much sense at all. You claimed Castro was supposed to read it only after Che died, but why would a dead man have to say he is abandoning his position in the Cuban government, and for that matter his citizen ship? Are dead men able to hold positions in the government, and if so, would it matter?

The letter served DUAL purpose. It was to be read if he died OR if there was too much mounting political pressure. Once again, there was too much mounting political pressure, THAT is why Castro read the letter. It was not a betrayal.


Novel Gentry, you say that I dislike Castro and want to like Che. They were not the same person, in fact very different. You Castro loyalists always overlook the amount of shit that man did...the hidden agendas he had and the strict demand on his country's production. If you don't see this...I feel sorry for you...Castro's not such a great man as you may think.

I'm not a Castro "loyalist" as you put it, Castro is a definite give and take. He has his good points, he has his bad points, and he plays both, and HE realizes this, whether you like to believe that or not. Che was VERY MUCH the same way, to claim Che never did anything wrong would be rather foolish.

The difference is, instead of you realizing Castro's nature in LIGHT of what he has done, you disbelieve the man could ever hold an ounce of good, so much so that you make unfounded claims that he "betrayed" Che, and then we get goons coming on here about how Castro killed Che and/or Camilo.

[Karl Marx's Camel]

NotWeirdOnlyGifted, you question why I think Castro is a Machiavellian leader. I'll tell you why - because Castro's a dictator. A man who thinks new farms grow on trees (no pun intended), and that exportation can go sky high. He's a man who, in my opinion, knew about Che dying before it happened. Had Fidel concerned himself genuinely with Che, he would've fought alongside his battles, and take on capitalism everywhere. But he didn't. He sat back...watched the world grow from the Cold War era to the now neo-liberalized globalization era. Castro is a man who sat back and grew old with Cuba, while she suffered. Che was a man who wanted socialism to exist everywhere...too bad Castro didn't want the same.


You fail to understand something.


Castro fighting alongside Che wouldn't change anything. It's all about political change. That's why we are fighting. We're not fighting for just that, fighting. Fighting is not "oh glory". The reason for fighting, and I will stress this again, is political change. Seriously, if Castro didn't run around in the jungle at the age of 42 in Bolivia while he was President of Cuba, who could blame him?

He fought Cuba's battle. And he didn't just "sit back". Again, he is the President of Cuba.


Why do you blaim him? Why don't you pick up a gun yourself and run around in the woods? Don't criticize people to do more than yourself, if you are not ready to do the same thing. And if you are, then do it. Don't blame Castro, blame yourself for not taking the first plane to Bolivia.



If Castro didn't want socialism to exist everywhere....


"Throughout the 1970s and 1980s, Cuba expanded its military presence abroad, spending millions of dollars in exporting revolutions; deployments reached 50,000 troops in Angola, 24,000 in Ethiopia, 1,500 in Nicaragua, and hundreds more elsewhere. In Angola, Cuban troops, supported logistically by the U.S.S.R., backed the Popular Movement for the Liberation of Angola (MPLA) in its effort to take power after Portugal granted Angola its independence. Cuban forces played a key role in Ethiopia's war against Somalia and remained there in substantial numbers as a garrison force for a decade. Cubans served in a noncombat advisory role in Mozambique and the Congo. Cuba also used the Congo as a logistical support center for Cuba's Angola mission."


http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/cuba/intro.htm

[Severian]

Originally posted by Knowledge 6 6 [email protected] 23 2005, 09:56 AM
[QUOTE=filimarxist,Jan 23 2005, 12:37 AM] he could've sent more troops to help him out (of course they'd have to be retrained, but it would've made things much easier in terms of carrying capacity and mobilization between places).


Uh....how? With parachutes? That's so vague that it doesn't remotely qualify as an answer to my question.

If somebody was to actually try to answer it, I guess they might suggest infiltrating more guerillas. But that takes time and a support network in the country. It took quite a while to set up the initial group y'know even though the enemy wasn't aware of what was going on then.

The Bolivian CP had withdrawn its promised support (that's the real betrayal there, and Che doesn't hesitate to describe it in the Bolivian Diary.) Tania and others in the support network - set up by Cuban intelligence - had their covers blown. Anyone trying to link up with Che would have had to find him in a jungle full of Bolivian soldiers. There was no time and means to respond when it became apparent the guerillas were in trouble.

Like the Granma expeditionaries, the guerillas in Bolivia knew they had to win or die by their own efforts plus the people they could recruit on the scence. At one point, the Granma expeditionaries were down to 12 people - a little more bad luck and they could easily have been wiped out too.

I'm not aware that Fidel, Che, or other leaders of that struggle ever criticized anyone for failing to send them more fighters from abroad at that moment.


Castro could've made speeches in defense of Ernesto, instead of attributing him to some iconic figure. He always mentioned Che in speeches to help ignite the masses.

Hm...he did make speeches in defense of Che. But of course to you anything Fidel does is wrong, so to you his speeches in defense of Che are not really in defense of Che, just exploiting his image or something.

[Knowledge 6 6 6]

http://nhs.needham.k12.ma.us/cur/kane97/P6...kp6/nuskp6.html (http://nhs.needham.k12.ma.us/cur/kane97/P6/nuskp6/nuskp6.html)

Hopefully some of you can educate yourselves a bit more, instead of being completely biased.

I agree, Castro has done good, and I am not doubting his good. I am saying that Castro's been a dictator, a man who has demanded so much of his people because he has needed it.

If you overlook the human rights violations, the horrible suicide rates, the fact that hospitals in Cuba decreased from 300+ to 264 between post-1959 to 1989, then I can't do anything more. You make your decisions...just make sure you know both sides of the coin.

[Severian]

None of which explains your accusations about Fidel and Che. And since when are revolutionaries supposed to be "unbiased" - in other words, fence-sitters? I suppose it's fitting you're repeating Washington's "human rights" propaganda against Cuba, since you've begun by repeating a CIA-inspired slander about Che and Fidel. (See the sticky thread for an explanation of its origins.)

You've complained that other posters are repeating what they've said in other threads - that's because these rumors and unfounded accusations are all repeated. And there's still nothing to support them.

[Archpremier]

Here's one off-the-wall theory. Castro was approached by the USSR. They were the one's that feared his honesty and genuine communist charisma. Any takers?

[Severian]

No. Again, see the sticky thread. Fidel as well as Che was critical of the USSR during this period. Fidel has always sought to defend the independence of the Cuban Revolution. He might keep silent about certain things to keep the Soviet aid coming but he's never done anything like off a comrade.

And you haven't been able to explain exactly what Castro was supposed to do differently either.

Here's a link to the thread - see my posts of Aug.3 and December something (http://www.revolutionaryleft.com/index.php?showtopic=1227&st=40)

[Archpremier]

And you haven't been able to explain exactly what Castro was supposed to do differently either.
Because I do not know, and don't pretend to. I obviously did not know Fidel at the time. Perhaps we should get him to join the forum, eh? :D

[Severian]

Um...what? You don't have to know him personally in order to explain what you think he did wrong.

And if you can't show he did something, there's not much point in speculating about his motives for doing it.

[Knowledge 6 6 6]

Severian, in your Aug. 3rd post, you keep regurgitating things that we all know...


First of all, there's no evidence of any major political disagreement between Castro and Guevara. Differences of emphasis, maybe. It's sometimes suggested that Guevara was critical of the USSR and Castro wasn't, but in fact Castro also criticised Soviet policies in a number of mid-60s speeches.

Castro shouldn't have criticized the USSR. It was his only hope after the trade blockade with the US. And yes, I knew this.


Second, the Cuban government was heavily involved in supporting the guerilla effort in Bolivia. Cuban intelligence supplied the passports that Che and others travelled on, a large number of Cubans participated as guerillas, etc

Yes, they did, and yes you have a point. But why didn't Castro go and fight with Che? Why did he wanna be the leader so badly? Why didn't he follow Che into every bout, every fight and every struggle he encountered? Why did he stay back, why couldn't he let Raul run Cuba for a while, while he helped Che? Cat got your tongue? It's what I thought...


Third, Che never expressed any dissatisfaction with Castro or the support he received from the Cuban government. Not even in his private diary, which has been published, so anyone can read it. Not in any conversation with any of the other guerillas.

Give this is correct, Che says something interesting in his final letter to Castro :

"One day they asked who should be notified in case of death, and the real possibility of that fact affected us all. Later we knew that it was true, that in revolution one wins or dies (if it is a real one). Many comrades fell along the way to victory."

So Castro lived...while many died. Did Castro win? Look at Cuba now, and tell me if he has.

You know, alotta ppl say Castro's great, etc. without much thought. Granted he went against the greatest superpower and actually won, and he was successful at overthrowing Batista....but :

-Batista was a man who needed to be overthrown. The majority disliked him, and he only catered to the few wealthy.
-The revolution was successful because like I've stated numerous times...Castro wasn't out for world revolution - he was out for Cuban revolution. He could care less about other countries. Che was the opposite in this regard.
-Fidel let a lotta close friends die along the way...Che included. I know what you're gonna say...'what was he supposed to do?' If he were a true comrade, he would've went to the Congo to help Che out, and allow his inner circle to run Cuba for a while.

But he didn't want that. He wanted power...he was desperate, hungry for it. Willing to die for it...

We all think Cuba's so great now...but is it? It's got a good healthcare program...but what about the reduction in hospitals, as I mentioned, the control over media, the control over what you CAN/CANNOT study..

Alotta ppl take for granted the liberties we have in the west...I'm not saying we're better, but I'm not saying either that Cuba's any greater.

Think about it like this, Castro wouldn't want you to access the internet. And yet...here we are.

[chebol]

Knowledge 6 6 6,
take a break will you? Fidel was the popular leader of Cuba- it was not his choice to run off on a middle-aged suicide mission. He had a responsibility to the cuban people to remain there and deepen the revolution.
And if access to the internet is what is reponsible for your paranoid drivel, I'd restrict it too. ;-p

Sorry, I'm just sick of baseless accusations created by people with no sense of critical analysis.


NotWeirdOnlyGifted,
the Soviet Union did not support the Cubans in Angola. In fact, they were livid at Cuba's decision to get involved.

[Knowledge 6 6 6]

Originally posted by [email protected] 24 2005, 10:31 PM
Sorry, I'm just sick of baseless accusations created by people with no sense of critical analysis.
I know, don't you just hate that?

:blink:

[Severian]

Originally posted by Knowledge 6 6 [email protected] 24 2005, 03:43 PM
Yes, they did, and yes you have a point. But why didn't Castro go and fight with Che? Why did he wanna be the leader so badly? Why didn't he follow Che into every bout, every fight and every struggle he encountered? Why did he stay back, why couldn't he let Raul run Cuba for a while, while he helped Che? Cat got your tongue? It's what I thought...
So, you admit there was no political disagreement between Fidel and Che? Others don't, so that part of my post was and is necessary.

So what was the supposed conflict between them, purely personal ambition? Ridiculous to imagine these two revolutionary leaders were that petty. You got any evidence at all for such a conflict of ambitions? Can you name any major revolutionary leader who was executed or imprisoned by Fidel?

It just shows your own pettiness, if you can't imagine any other reason for someone to want to lead a revolution other than personal ambition.

And are you accusing Castro of physical cowardice? That's rich....I doubt you've ever, in your life, taken one-hundredth of the risks Fidel Castro took by participating in the Moncada attack and the Granma landing. Most people who participated in both died, and it easily could have been all.

In Episodes of the Cuban Revolutionary War, Che writes that Fidel wanted to be in the thick of the fighting and had to be restrained by others who knew that he had to be kept alive to continue the overall fighting. I'm confident they would have - definitely should have - reacted the same way if Fidel had wanted to go abroad to fight after the revolution took power in Cuba.

The revolutionary process doesn't end with taking power - it gets harder, and the need for the best leadership grows. It would have been massively irresponsible for Fidel to go to Bolivia - or for Che to go, except Fidel was remaining in Cuba.

Raul is pretty capable, but he's not Fidel - doesn't have the same charisma and capability to inspire the people.

Far from "the cat getting my tongue", I've said all of the above before, of course, but then I'm responding to stuff you and others have said before. But the cat does seem to have your tongue as far as explaining what more Fidel could have done to aid the Bolivian guerilla.

The rest of your post is not particularly relevant, and really all that stuff has been answered in other, more general threads on the Cuban revolution.

Oh yeah, the assertion that Fidel doesn't care about the world revolution is ridiculous. The U.S. ruling class has always had a different assessment - as reflected in the Global Security quote someone pasted.

Or the U.S. State Department:

Cuba was designated a state sponsor of terrorism in 1982, principally for supporting terrorist groups in Latin America.

* Cuba was providing support for terrorist organizations, including Puerto Rican nationalists FALN, the FMLN of El Salvador, and the FSLN of Nicaragua.

* Cuba helped transship Soviet arms to Nicaragua and El Salvador, for use by terrorist organizations, trained anti-American insurgents elsewhere in Latin America, and supported insurgencies or war efforts in Angola and Ethiopia.

Current Status

* Cuba remains on the list for supporting designated Foreign Terrorist Organizations, and for harboring fugitives from U.S. justice, including domestic terrorists.

* Cuba provides a safe haven to U.S.-designated foreign terrorist organizations, including the FARC, ELN and ETA. The longtime official IRA representative in Havana also was arrested in Colombia in 2001 along with two other IRA members on suspicion of providing advanced explosives training to the FARC. Their trial is ongoing in Bogotá.

* Cuba harbors fugitives from U.S. justice, including domestic terrorists from the FALN - Macheteros.
link (http://www.state.gov/p/wha/rls/fs/22905.htm)

And that's just a part of Cuba's support to the world revolution.

Going as one more fighter in Bolivia, or organizing thousands to go to Angola, weapons to El Salvador, doctors and literacy teachers to Venezuela today, and many other actions over decades? Which is the bigger contribution to the world revolution?

[Knowledge 6 6 6]

You know, you're defending a man who would not let you think independently, a man who would not allow you any internet access, and a man who, alongside Che and Raul, committed political genocide and a man who would not want religion heavily emphasized (Though I agree religion isn't everything, it shouldn't mean ppl should not express their beliefs).

If they were so sure of themselves, why did they kill Batista supporters? Why did they have to make sure ALL of Cuba were behind them?

You think so highly of a murderer, a tyrant and a dictator. It's sickening, because you've been so brainwashed. You say I'm 'petty'. Ok, you're entitled to your opinion. I'm not gonna say you're wrong...cuz heck, you have a right to your opinion.

You say I'd never lay my life down for anything like Castro did. Do you even know me personally? You don't, yet you make all these assumptions. You think that I just sit on my ass and post at this message board without doing anything. You are just like Castro, you make assumptions before you think critically about the issue. You don't know me, so don't make assumptions.

But...what can I do. If you love Castro, you love Castro. I can't do anything about it, I've just tried to broaden your scope of things...guess stubborness is something you have. Too bad it shows how weak you really are.

[Severian]

Originally posted by Knowledge 6 6 [email protected] 24 2005, 07:59 PM
You know, you're defending a man who would not let you think independently,
Hm....Fidel has mind control powers? Maybe that's what he shoulda done in support the guerillas in Bolivia, used his psychic abilities....

I have to say, also, for an "independent thinker" you're pretty unoriginal. As I explain in the sticky thread, all of this crap traces back to Felix Rodriguez and the CIA. I'm glad you took the time to read my post, but I notice you avoided commenting on that part. Really original ideas are pretty rare...it's a good idea to learn something about where one's ideas first were expressed.

The rest of these accusations are pretty standard and have nothing to do with the topic of this thread. Probably you're just trying to change the subject since you've realized you don't have a leg to hop around on.

It doesn't matter how evil Fidel supposedly is in other respects, that wouldn't prove he betrayed Che. I'd defend the devil if someone was falsely slandering him - heck in a thread over in Politics I just pointed out some exaggerations in an article about feudal Tibet, which was genuinely horrifying.

You could try admitting you're wrong...it won't kill you, trust me. I've done it a few times myself.

****


You say I'd never lay my life down for anything like Castro did.

I said you haven't taken the risks he has. Am I wrong? Details please.

[Paradox]

I think Ian put it best when he said:


rumours say this is a shit thread that's been discounted a million times.

:lol:


a man who, alongside Che and Raul, committed political genocide

:huh:

[Freidenker]

Originally posted by Knowledge 6 6 [email protected] 17 2005, 10:44 PM
Castro = Machiavellian leader

Che = A good friend and died for the cause.

Together = someone getting fucked over in the end.

Too bad it was Che.
I totally agree.

After reading up on Che, and seeing the motorcycle diaries, you can see that he is probably the most compassionate man in the history of politics. The work he did and empathy he felt. I'm sure if he were alive today, things would be different.

R.I.P. :che:

[Severian]

Yeah, you gotta love that "political genocide". WTF does that mean?

"Ted, my sources say the Castro regime is attempting to completely wipe out a small ethnic minority here in Cuba. This tribe, known as the "Batista torturers", are distinguished from other Cubans by their rich cultural traditions like eyeball-gouging and prisoner-electrocuting. Many fear that is this campaign of political genocide continues, this ancient cultural practice may be lost forever. All humanity will be poorer."

[Big Boss]

Severian, I just wanted to say that I am with you man. The thing is that some people are too brainwashed to see that Castro is not what the American goverment says he is. Knowledge, you are misled by the info you are reliying on. The genocide stuff you said are highly exagerated in your post and I suggest you edit it. Also, the war criminals executed in the trials were not inocent and the toll was not more than a hundred. Whoever is giving you your information is taking you for a long ride because, as far as I am concerned, Che, Raul and Castro have never committed any genocide. I don't think that Castro has any mind controlling powers at all (very funny by the way!) or anything of the sort. Knowledge, don't exagerate. That's all. :)

[Paradox]

Yeah, you gotta love that "political genocide". WTF does that mean?

"Ted, my sources say the Castro regime is attempting to completely wipe out a small ethnic minority here in Cuba. This tribe, known as the "Batista torturers", are distinguished from other Cubans by their rich cultural traditions like eyeball-gouging and prisoner-electrocuting. Many fear that is this campaign of political genocide continues, this ancient cultural practice may be lost forever. All humanity will be poorer."

Save the ancient tradition of torturing the people!!! :lol:

I just fell out of my seat laughing!!! I've heard some crazy claims against Cuba, mostly right-wing of course, but "political genocide"!?! That's a new one! :lol:

[Big Boss]

Yeah, it is laughable. Even more coming from a comrade!

He is confused though. But funny still!

[Paradox]

After reading up on Che, and seeing the motorcycle diaries, you can see that he is probably the most compassionate man in the history of politics.

What does Che being compassionate have to do with the discussion at hand? What does it have to do with Fidel supposedly failing Che? Radio communication between Che and Cuba was lost, Bustos and Debray were captured, and Mario Monje betrayed Che. What was Castro supposed to do? Send a swarm of guerrillas all over Bolivia in search of Che to help him? Quit perpetuating stupid lies, there are more important things to be worried about.

[Big Boss]

That was awesome comrade Paradox. Spoken like a true prodigy! Nice response.

[Paradox]

That was awesome comrade Paradox. Spoken like a true prodigy! Nice response.

Tlazohcamati ("Thank you" in Aztec) comrade. I'm no expert but this is nothing but a perpetuated lie. I mean what was Fidel supposed to do? These people make it sound like he should have packed up his rifle and gear and flew off to Bolivia to fight his way into the jungles in order to save Che. Mario Monje is the one who betrayed Che and Fidel. He lied, saying that he was going to support Che's operations, then did NOTHING to help. Also, it was pretty obvious that there was something going on with foreigners like Tania (the East German Cuban agent) and the French Debray going back and forth. And like I said Che and the rebels lost radio communication with Cuba, so what was Fidel supposed to do? I don't put any blame on Fidel for Che's death, but I could do without the commercialization of Che after his death, and the saying that "we all must be like Che." You can't make anybody to be like Che, they must decide that on their own.

[RagsToRevolution]

Originally posted by [email protected] 27 2005, 07:18 PM
Yeah, you gotta love that "political genocide". WTF does that mean?

"Ted, my sources say the Castro regime is attempting to completely wipe out a small ethnic minority here in Cuba. This tribe, known as the "Batista torturers", are distinguished from other Cubans by their rich cultural traditions like eyeball-gouging and prisoner-electrocuting. Many fear that is this campaign of political genocide continues, this ancient cultural practice may be lost forever. All humanity will be poorer."
This will be forever immortalized in my signature from now until revolution.

[Paradox]

This will be forever immortalized in my signature from now until revolution.

Great! :lol: I wouldn't say it's the best post ever, but certainly one of the top ones, and incredibly hilarious! :lol:

But I would suggest one small correction:


Many fear that is this campaign of political genocide continues

Change the word "is" to "IF." Just a suggestion. ;)

[SpeCtrE]

Bullshit.

[HuRTfuLsInS]

Originally posted by Cuban [email protected] 16 2005, 02:12 PM
Rumors say that Castro was the one who gave the orders to not send reinforcements to aid Che as he executed an attack in Bolivia. Rumors say Castro did this because he felt that Che was a threat to his supreme leadership and authority over Cuba's control. I believe it, because it happens to be, that in that same attack, Che asked for Castro to join him in the battlefield. Castro's excuse was that there was political tasks that were left to be accomplished back in Cuba, and that "unfortunately" he wasn't going to be able to join him. So Che executes the attack, asks for his back up, and then "The man" sitting on his ass handling "Political tasks" orders the reinforcements to move out. Now, doesn't that just seem a little too fishy? I think that there's too many coincidences (I dont know how to spell it). So what do you all think? Did Castro really outsmart the great Ernesto Che Guevara becasuse of his weakness to put his trust within castro?
i did read some where that castro had something to do with that. but i highly doubt that, they was buddies <_<

[Paradox]

Knowledge 6 6 6, I don&#39;t mean to be insulting, but in regards to this topic, your knowledge is 0 0 0.

1. Mario Monje had said he would help escort Che to the border, and even after he was told the armed struggle would have to start in Bolivia, he agreed to help and supply men. Then just days later he said that he didn&#39;t remember saying anything like that, and when he met with Che he said that HE would have to be charge of the operation. Che of course didn&#39;t agree to this. Monje also complained to the Soviets about Cuba&#39;s policy of exporting revolution, which the Soviets didn&#39;t agree with either. If anyone betrayed Che, it was Monje.

2. Tania stood out like a sore thumb and was reckless. Che got upset at her for drawing to much attention by coming back and forth from the Nancahuazu camps. I mean you&#39;d have to be pretty blind to not notice a foreigner coming back and forth. That would be like nobody noticing Michael Jackson playing with kids at a day care center.

3. Radio communication was lost with Cuba.

4. Ciro Bustos and Regis Debray were captured while trying to escape. They were Che&#39;s last links to Cuba (Tania was killed). Bustos and Debray confessed to the guerrilla operations, Bustos even drew maps of the Nancahuazu camps and sketches of the guerrillas, including Che, and it is from these sketches and confessions that the Bolivians were able to determine that it was in fact Che who was in Bolivia.

5. Bolivia was under heavy surveillance, so even if Fidel sent reinforcements to Bolivia, how would they have gone anywhere without being detected? Almost everyone Che and the rebels came across told the authorities that they had seen the rebels (some even thought the rebels were sourcerers&#33;).

6. Che and the rebels were in horrible condition; they were starving, sick, and Che was suffering badly from his asthma. On top of this they were being chased by Bolivian army rangers trained by u&#036; green berets. What was Fidel supposed to do about this? Shower the entire jungle with food and asthma medication and hope some of it just happened to land where Che and the rebels were hiding?

Oh Fidel, if only you had waved your magic wand and made the army disappear&#33; Then it all would have worked out ok&#33; :rolleyes:




Castro = Machiavellian leader

Che = A good friend and died for the cause.

Together = someone getting fucked over in the end.

Too bad it was Che.

Hmm... How about...

Knowledge 6 6 6 = MISINFORMED?

Honestly though, the only reason this lie is being passed around is because the enemy wants to create DISunity within the left (those that admire Che and Fidel to be specific). From the looks of it, it seems to be working; instead of focusing our attention and working together against the REAL ENEMY - capitalism - we&#39;re wasting our time *****in&#39; about whether or not Fidel betrayed Che. NO HE DID NOT. Get that bullshit out of your mind.


Too bad it was Che.

Too bad it was Che??? I thought Che, Raul, and Fidel were guilty of "political genocide"? :rolleyes:

[KuliNeMeL]

i saw an interview with Fidel.. and the interviewer asked him about all of that, Fidel said that Che just really wanted to keep fighting and spread communism... so he sent Che to Congo... but the revolution failed and he came back... and the next destination was Bolivia.... Che didnt want to stop at Cuba.... he always dreamed of a communist Latin America...
i really dont think Fidel ordered not to send supplies and stuff to the guerrillas at Bolivia.... i cant even imagine that....

[Big Boss]

How can someone who considers himself a Communist believe all the bullshit that the cappies spread around?

[Big Boss]

Originally posted by RagsToRevolution+Jan 28 2005, 02:01 AM--> (RagsToRevolution &#064; Jan 28 2005, 02:01 AM)
[email protected] 27 2005, 07:18 PM
Yeah, you gotta love that "political genocide". WTF does that mean?

"Ted, my sources say the Castro regime is attempting to completely wipe out a small ethnic minority here in Cuba. This tribe, known as the "Batista torturers", are distinguished from other Cubans by their rich cultural traditions like eyeball-gouging and prisoner-electrocuting. Many fear that is this campaign of political genocide continues, this ancient cultural practice may be lost forever. All humanity will be poorer."
This will be forever immortalized in my signature from now until revolution.[/b]
Sorry for the late answer but I was laughing my ass of when I read it. It was hilarious&#33;&#33; :lol: :lol:

[Severian]

Aw, shucks. Glad you liked it, folks.

[Big Boss]

Glad you posted it&#33;&#33; It was truly one of the best posts ever posted in here&#33;&#33;

[Knowledge 6 6 6]

Knowledge 0 0 0. Hah, funny stuff. Did you think about that yourself? You get the prize for best joke.

Much of you here are like Castro - you never wanna hear the other side.

Meh, stay misinformed. Oh, and continue assuming I am as well. It&#39;s funny listening to you all carry on though, I must admit.

[RagsToRevolution]

Originally posted by Knowledge 6 6 [email protected] 30 2005, 03:48 PM
Knowledge 0 0 0. Hah, funny stuff. Did you think about that yourself? You get the prize for best joke.

Much of you here are like Castro - you never wanna hear the other side.

Meh, stay misinformed. Oh, and continue assuming I am as well. It&#39;s funny listening to you all carry on though, I must admit.
There are many arguments against you that haven&#39;t been refuted. My thoughts on Castro&#39;s administration in Cuba is mixed, but I believe that the state in Cuba is anti-imperialist and progressive like Venezuala. Which is why I support it. I do not think of it as "socialist."

[Paradox]

Knowledge 0 0 0. Hah, funny stuff. Did you think about that yourself? You get the prize for best joke.

Thanks for the sarcasim, I appreciate it. ;)

Look, you wanna keep thinkin Castro betrayed Che? Go ahead. We&#39;ll never agree on this idea. But I&#39;m not gonna waste anymore time in this thread, as it is POINTLESS. I&#39;m sure we could agree that there are MORE IMPORTANT things to be discussing than this. Adios.

[OleMarxco]

What if the letter&#39;s had been altered? ;)
Oh, and by the way, if we&#39;re to focus our fire on Capitalism and not Castro...
well, why not focus it on Fidel, to me, he&#39;s naught but only an authitorian and totalarian one-state monopol big-capitalist&#33;

[Severian]

Which letters? Do you have some evidence they were altered?

[OleMarxco]

I&#39;m just asking: I don&#39;t say that I think that they WHERE, But I&#39;m questioning it. And I&#39;m not going to put up any evidence, but I&#39;m only asking, still.....and I&#39;m talkin&#39; of the "farewell"-letters of that from Che.

[Severian]

The farewell letter&#39;s in Che&#39;s style and the information in the letter turned out to be true: he left Cuba to aid revolutions in other countries. Contrary to what was claimed before the letter was released, that Fidel had thrown him in prison or "disappeared" him.

It&#39;s also fully consistent with the contents of the Bolivian Diary. The authenticity of which nobody disputes...not even the CIA, it arranged the publication of its own version, which differs from the Cuban-sponsored version only in that...the CIA leaves stuff out.

[Colombia]

Originally posted by [email protected] 19 2005, 11:07 PM

well, why not focus it on Fidel, to me, he&#39;s naught but only an authitorian and totalarian one-state monopol big-capitalist&#33;
How so?

[NovelGentry]

For all those wondering "What Fidel was supposed to do..." the answer is clear. He was supposed to help Che&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33; How you ask? Well he could go into a phone booth and come out with a cape, then fly around the world really fast after Che died, and reverse time, then fly into Bolivia and commite political genocide against the Bolivian Army and CIA training squads&#33;









Obviously.

[MKS]

It is my understanding that Fidel and Che were very close friends. They went to prison together in Mexico, and had a very close bond because of that expeierence, also Che and Raul Castro were very close friends. Raul being more of a marxist than Fidel.

Fidel could not save Che, and to state he shold of gone to Bolivia to fight with Che is ridiculous, i&#39;m suprised you didnt assert that Fidel should have went to the Congo with Che as well. Although fidel did send Cuban troops with che in africa. Its like stating Stalin shold have picked up a rifle and fought the nazis. Or

Fidel was a cuban, his first priority was cuba, however he did support Che&#39;s revolutionary aims. Asking a national leader to abandon his nation a time of great instability, as was cuba after the revolution, would have been very selfish, something Che was not.

Fidel is a great man, like all great men he had faults, but you can not argue with what he did, how he changed the world. The killing of Che was probably one of the low points of his life, in terms of sadness and grief. He had nothing to do with Ches death, like novelgentry said hes not superman.

A little off the subject: is there a fidel - lives website?

[NovelGentry]

novelgentry said hes not superman.

Who said anything about superman?... that&#39;s fiction. Fidel can actually fly&#33;

EDIT: I should note, he can only fly with the cape on.

[pandora]

By sharing Che&#39;s letter with the Cuba that was only to be shared if he had been captured forced Che&#39;s hand in going onward to Bolivia. Politically I believe that Fidel painted Che into a corner, a sort of letter of resignation so to speak.

I think many of us can relate to that in a way. It was a hard time, the Soviets were not pleased with Che&#39;s Sino relations, and Che was tired of hanging around Cuba. The first of many of Argentina&#39;s guerilla groups was begining, and Peru was well on the way as well as political change in Chile. I think Che thought the alta plano was the place to go, as they already had support in Peruvian Andes from those who could speak Quechua. What they could not handle was the level of CIA intervention and the lack of education of the Bolivian peasants who had no idea who Che was as literacy was in the pits and there were few newspapers in Bolivia at the time.

The Bolivian miners strike were facing the same resistance, the example of their difficulties should have been studied more closely before embarking. It is not like Che to embark on an area without studying it more closely tactically that&#39;s why I believe politically he felt forced to act sooner than he was ready.

He should not have gone down till 68 and he should have started in Peru redirecting what later became the Shining Path after clearer doctrine.

[aberos]

wow...knowledge 666...you truly are marked with dark knowledge. by dark i mean that there obviously has not been much light shed. why don&#39;t you check the dates of the "genocides" that fidel and che committed and see if they might have been around the time of the war tribunals where horrible people were forced to atone for their crimes against humanity. but then again, i guess that is not important. in fact, what was nuremburg all about? we should have just let those nazis go. i mean, they really were not that bad were they?

hopefully you can pick up on my sarcasm as well.

[Severian]

Originally posted by [email protected] 21 2005, 08:41 PM
By sharing Che&#39;s letter with the Cuba that was only to be shared if he had been captured forced Che&#39;s hand in going onward to Bolivia.
Is this a fact, or was it to be read whenever it seemed necessary, as Fidel said at the time?

I&#39;d say the letter itself seems more to support the latter. It seems more intended to counter rumors about Che&#39;s whereabouts than to help Cuba disavow him. If he was captured, there would be no need to counter the rumors anymore.


It is not like Che to embark on an area without studying it more closely tactically that&#39;s why I believe politically he felt forced to act sooner than he was ready.

Seems to me that more thought was given to Bolivian politics than is often recognized. Certainly they were aware of the miners&#39; strikes and that was part of the motivation for the guerilla effort; it was intended to build on those struggles and the need to continue &#39;em in a different form rather than sending unarmed miners up against machine-guns.

A number of the Bolivians in the guerilla had been part of that struggle, including Rodolfo Saldana, the head of the underground support network. There&#39;s a short book by him, Fertile Ground, which gives some of the Bolivian political context for the guerilla.

[aberos]

well put severian

[Big Boss]

Originally posted by [email protected] 21 2005, 09:33 PM
For all those wondering "What Fidel was supposed to do..." the answer is clear. He was supposed to help Che&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33; How you ask? Well he could go into a phone booth and come out with a cape, then fly around the world really fast after Che died, and reverse time, then fly into Bolivia and commite political genocide against the Bolivian Army and CIA training squads&#33;









Obviously.
:lol: :lol: :lol: :D :D :) :)
You hit the nail square in the head&#33;
But kidding aside, some people think that Fidel is a superman of some sort and that he should have gone to war against Bolivia because of Che&#39;s decision of going and sparking a revolutionary movement there. I think that Fidel did everything that he could to help his old comrade but fate played some weird cards in that game that even today there are questions about of what really happened to Che. One more thing, I recomend all of you my comrades to watch a very revealing documentary that will change your perception of how history is written. It is called "Sacrificio". This documentary won many awards in Cuba and in other countries around the world. Watch it comrades and (if you want) write something about it. :)

[aberos]

that is a good film. also, Ernesto Che Guevara, The Bolivian Diary is a really good documentary...but it can be hard to get a hold of, and it is only available on vhs. it is worth the hunt though

[bassplayinllamas]

where at did u find that documentary?

[Knowledge 6 6 6]

Originally posted by [email protected] 22 2005, 04:42 AM
wow...knowledge 666...you truly are marked with dark knowledge. by dark i mean that there obviously has not been much light shed. why don&#39;t you check the dates of the "genocides" that fidel and che committed and see if they might have been around the time of the war tribunals where horrible people were forced to atone for their crimes against humanity. but then again, i guess that is not important. in fact, what was nuremburg all about? we should have just let those nazis go. i mean, they really were not that bad were they?

hopefully you can pick up on my sarcasm as well.
I thought you were being serious&#33; <_<

[wei]

I believe Fidel loved Che, he would help Che out.....

[Sons_of_Eureka]

Knowledge 666,your making this forum a house of lies.

Cubas democratic system might not be perfect but the peoples power electoral system is far supperior to the wests Bouguise &#39;demorcratic&#39; dictatorship as seen in America,Australia and England.

As for pollitical freedoms,look at what the US did to Malcome X,look at how they treated the &#39;no war&#39; protesters(gave them a criminal record so they couldn&#39;t vote) and finaly look at these new &#39;anti terror&#39; law which have turned the system into a prison.

So before you go critisising Cuba,understand that its far greater and far more humane than the wicked west

[Hasta Siempre!]

People seem to forget one major factor in che&#39;s failed bolivian revolution. Mario Monje, the Bolivian Communist party leader deceived both Che and Fidel Castro. He promised Fidel his party would help Che with recruits and general support in exchange for financial aid from Cuba. He then told Che he wanted to lead the revolution. Che refused. The result was a lack of support or recruits from the bolivian communist party, where many were willing to fight, because Mario Monje insisted that Ches forces did not need any more recruits at the time, which was false. Fidel castro had lost contact with che early in the operation and relied on the bolivian communist party to keep him informed. Castro could not have sent che troops or aid because he did not know where Che was&#33; Castro would have helped Che in Bolivia if he could. He had every reason to want latin america to follow in the cuban revolutions footsteps. Cuba needed every ally the could get&#33;
I&#39;m not a big fan of Castro, and he has done much in his life that makes me cringe, but betraying Che, his loyal friend and greatest revolutionary commander was not one of those things.
For some excellent insight on this topic, I suggest you read "companiero" by Jorge Castaneda.

[Knowledge 6 6 6]

Originally posted by [email protected] 11 2005, 11:52 AM
Knowledge 666,your making this forum a house of lies.

Cubas democratic system might not be perfect but the peoples power electoral system is far supperior to the wests Bouguise &#39;demorcratic&#39; dictatorship as seen in America,Australia and England.

As for pollitical freedoms,look at what the US did to Malcome X,look at how they treated the &#39;no war&#39; protesters(gave them a criminal record so they couldn&#39;t vote) and finaly look at these new &#39;anti terror&#39; law which have turned the system into a prison.

So before you go critisising Cuba,understand that its far greater and far more humane than the wicked west
Oh how right you are. I am such a liar, when will I learn...

1.) You seem to say that Cuba&#39;s &#39;democratic&#39; electoral system is far superior than the west&#39;s &#39;bouguise&#39; (learn how to spell before you come after me) democratic dictatorship. So I ask...when was the last time you saw Bush kill his opponents? Then again, Castro has...

2.) Castro&#39;s been in power since 1959. It&#39;s 2005 and you&#39;re telling me his ideas are far more progressive than what we do here in the west?&#33; Maybe you&#39;ve been living under a rock for the past few years, but Castro cannot hear anything against him. There are people who say no to Castro,...but those folk are usually killed or put in prison unjustly.

3.) I was just wondering how I make this forum a house of lies. Maybe it&#39;s this extreme-leftist ideology that the right is wrong and everyone needs to become a marxist/communist/etc. Don&#39;t you see that there are valid points on both sides of the spectrum?

4.) &#39;Malcolme&#39; X did not die because of US policies...but because of the Nation of Islam. They killed him because he was becoming too much of a leader; instead of working with the US and feeling sympathy with the nation on such issues as the assassination of JFK, X refuted this idea and said that the nation should not feel sympathy for his passing.

5.) You cannot tell me the US system is now a prison...there are still political freedoms, and many other things that you overlook. See, if we were in Cuba, Castro wouldnt allow you to be reading this post, he wouldnt allow you on the internet, and finally, he wouldnt allow you to read books against the Cuban government.

You extremists never tend to see both sides; so your views become discounted...distorted and uneducated at that. But nice try calling me out. I always am up for a challenge. :)

[Sons_of_Eureka]

Oh how right you are. I am such a liar, when will I learn...

1.) You seem to say that Cuba&#39;s &#39;democratic&#39; electoral system is far superior than the west&#39;s &#39;bouguise&#39; (learn how to spell before you come after me) democratic dictatorship. So I ask...when was the last time you saw Bush kill his opponents? Then again, Castro has...

2.) Castro&#39;s been in power since 1959. It&#39;s 2005 and you&#39;re telling me his ideas are far more progressive than what we do here in the west?&#33; Maybe you&#39;ve been living under a rock for the past few years, but Castro cannot hear anything against him. There are people who say no to Castro,...but those folk are usually killed or put in prison unjustly.

3.) I was just wondering how I make this forum a house of lies. Maybe it&#39;s this extreme-leftist ideology that the right is wrong and everyone needs to become a marxist/communist/etc. Don&#39;t you see that there are valid points on both sides of the spectrum?

4.) &#39;Malcolme&#39; X did not die because of US policies...but because of the Nation of Islam. They killed him because he was becoming too much of a leader; instead of working with the US and feeling sympathy with the nation on such issues as the assassination of JFK, X refuted this idea and said that the nation should not feel sympathy for his passing.

5.) You cannot tell me the US system is now a prison...there are still political freedoms, and many other things that you overlook. See, if we were in Cuba, Castro wouldnt allow you to be reading this post, he wouldnt allow you on the internet, and finally, he wouldnt allow you to read books against the Cuban government.

You extremists never tend to see both sides; so your views become discounted...distorted and uneducated at that. But nice try calling me out. I always am up for a challenge.

1]Castro is does not influence daily cuban politics,the candidates who the cuban people elect deal with the day to day issues concerning the cuban people.

About the cuban electoral system,
-there are no political parties thus all the candidates are independent.
-A candidate can be recalled anytime if he/she does not forfill the will of the people.
-over 95% of the cuban peoples vote,voting age is 16+.In the U.S it&#39;s less than 50% and the elections are rife with electoral fraud.
-Cuban politicians get paid a basic workers wage unlike the U.S where politicians manage to rip off the tax payers with dispicable crimes of corruption and greed.

2]You speak of the west being &#39;progressive&#39;&#33;,this is how progresive it is.

-U.S politicians has been undermining healthcare ever since it was established so now workers people die of preventible desease because they can&#39;t afford treatment.
-Cuba has one of the best health systems in the world.All health treatment is free.
-U.S questionable education system has been dumping out indoctrinated &#39;drop kicks&#39; since it was established.futhermore the majorighty of Americans can&#39;t afford higher education because only the rich can afford it.
-Cuba&#39;s Education system is free and the offer scholarships to foreigners.It is also regarded as one of the best in the world.
-U.S drops bombs on the peoples of diffrent nations and charges them for it
-Cuba has 1000&#39;s of aid workers helping the peoples of the world for free.
-U.S is rampant with racism,ultra-nationalism and upper class chauvinism.
-Cuba eliminated racism in 1959 and only has a very small minority of dissidents(U.S sponcered ultra-right terrorists which have to be locked up for they&#39;re own good).
-U.S has been ruled by Freemasons since &#39;Honest&#39; Abe
-Cuba has been ruled workers since 1959.
-U.S is filled with poverty and homelessness.
-Cuba&#39;s people might not live in luxurie but at least they have enough to live happily.

And as for your claims of the Cuban Gov. abusing its power by locking up people,well quite frankly i&#39;d rather see those right wing f**ckers in jail then marauding the steets of Havana spreading U.S imperialism.

3]No,i&#39;m on the dark-side of the force.

4]My belife is that the Goverment killed Malcome X.

5]The U.S counter terrorism laws are far more repressive than anything Castro could think of.

Now bring it bi-atch :lol:

[Black Dagger]

Cuba eliminated racism in 1959 and only has a very small minority of dissidents(U.S sponcered ultra-right terrorists which have to be locked up for they&#39;re own good).

Like they eliminated prostitution? Illict drugs? That statement is pure fantasy



-Cuba has been ruled workers since 1959.

&#39;Worker&#39;- singular, and when he even ever a worker?



-U.S is filled with poverty and homelessness.
-Cuba&#39;s people might not live in luxurie but at least they have enough to live happily.

Not &#39;living in luxury&#39; does translate to being poor, Cuba has not eliminated poverty, there are still &#39;wealthy&#39; cubans and &#39;poor&#39; cubans, most pro-castro people don&#39;t usually try to propagandise that much.

[fidel_che]

i cant understand how any revolutionary can trust the words if the cia. fidel and che were very good friends, why would he do something so stupid as to send him on a death trip. if the radio wasnt busted every true supporter of revolutions would knows that fidel would have done everything in his power to help him, but he couldnt cuz there was no way he could contact him. if fidel was asked to go with him to bolivia he couldnt have gone because without castro in cuba the revolution would have gotten attacked and even destroyed and thats a fact.noone in there right mind would suggest that fidel send him on a death trip because because, how much better would things have turned out for the cuba if he was alive today ?who knows maybe che is in bolivia right now because rumor has it Che lives. che also wanted all of latin america to turn into a vietnam (guerila warfare all over the continent). its looking like it is more and more as the years go by. venezuela, bolivia, brazil, argentina and many more latin american countries are tuning pro socialist/communist and anti american. not a snowflaks chance in hell would fidel have send him on a death trip&#33;



viva fidel
viva fidel
viva fidel

[Sons_of_Eureka]

Like they eliminated prostitution? Illict drugs? That statement is pure fantasy

Actully they did eliminate the all the anti-black dicrimination in the establishment in 1959 and have done many anti-racism campaigns ever since.

As for Prostitution they are trying to eliminate that as well by having seminars for men and women to give them pride and education so they don&#39;t fall into that line.There is still prostitution in Cuba but atleast they are trying to eliminate it by more socialy accepted techniques rather than the &#39;just throw &#39;em in gaol&#39; technique used by most countries.

Drugs,I don&#39;t know what they&#39;re doin about that and would be interested if anyone could provide me with some info.



&#39;Worker&#39;- singular, and when he even ever a worker?

Sorry about my crappy grammer,or whatever its called.

And I assume you are refering to Castro,well its my opinion that the Cuban communist party represents the Cuban people and is not a dictatorship ruled by Castro.


Not &#39;living in luxury&#39; does translate to being poor, Cuba has not eliminated poverty, there are still &#39;wealthy&#39; cubans and &#39;poor&#39; cubans, most pro-castro people don&#39;t usually try to propagandise that much.

I agree with you that having rich and poor in a society is fundermentally wrong and I think Cuba should adopt a &#39;Iron rice bowl&#39; policy.

At least the Cuban goverment has a social securighty system where the unemployed get 75% of what workers get weekly.The goverment also subsadieses food prices,electricity,water and other esentials.

In America the poorest (homeless and jobless) don&#39;t have access to anything like this.

And Knoledge 666,I just read in the SBS world guide 12th edition thatthere were 120,000 internet users in 2002.

[Black Dagger]

Actully they did eliminate the all the anti-black dicrimination in the establishment in 1959 and have done many anti-racism campaigns ever since.

If they &#39;eliminated&#39; all &#39;anti-black&#39; discrimination in 1959 why would they have done &#39;many anti-racism campaigns ever since&#39;? You honestly think that legislating or proclaming a rhetorical end to &#39;racism&#39; actually means it no exists? Racism existed under Batista and continues under Castro, the prejudices of the cuban people were not wiped over-night by the cuban revolution.



And I assume you are refering to Castro,well its my opinion that the Cuban communist party represents the Cuban people and is not a dictatorship ruled by Castro.

How does it &#39;represent&#39; the cuban people? I mean, sure, he does metaphorically &#39;represent&#39; them, but materially he does not. Cuba is not a flouring workers-democracy, Castro is never going to be &#39;re-called&#39; by the workers, because he doesn&#39;t want to be.

[Severian]

Originally posted by Black [email protected] 16 2005, 02:22 AM
Castro is never going to be &#39;re-called&#39; by the workers, because he doesn&#39;t want to be.
Has it occurred to you that maybe he&#39;s never been re-called by the workers because they don&#39;t want to?

Gallup Poll - Cuba (http://www.marxmail.org/facts/cuba_gallup.htm)

Should they recall a decidated and talented representative of their interests just to prove to you that they can?

[red_orchestra]

Knowlege 666.....wrote
"See, if we were in Cuba, Castro wouldnt allow you to be reading this post, he wouldnt allow you on the internet, and finally, he wouldnt allow you to read books against the Cuban government."
---------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------------
If you have been to Havana...you will notice several NET cafes. The access to the internet while painfully slow isn&#39;t monitored. Fidel Castro isn&#39;t the bad guy people make him out to be.
I think people leave Cuba because they want to have a change in the Government, and they feel life is better in the US or Canada. The reality is that on one level.. the short term needs of Cubans are taken care of, while their long term futures are usually worse off without a strong socialist political system. Its all an illusion... life in Cuba has its benifts and its downsides just like any other country. For a "Communist" country, Cuba is one of the most educated countries in Latin America and top 10 in the world for literacy rates. I believe the US is #40.
Go figure.

[Severian]

Yeah, I stopped even reading Ignorance 666&#39;s posts. They&#39;re as full of lies as his attempt to frame Fidel for Che&#39;s death earlier in this thread.

The truth is that Cuba does not ban books - all the books, which some have claimed to be banned, have in reality been found in Cuban public libraries. Nor is the net filtered. See the Cuban anarchism thread for a lot of Cuban internet facts.

[Sons_of_Eureka]

If they &#39;eliminated&#39; all &#39;anti-black&#39; discrimination in 1959 why would they have done &#39;many anti-racism campaigns ever since&#39;? You honestly think that legislating or proclaming a rhetorical end to &#39;racism&#39; actually means it no exists? Racism existed under Batista and continues under Castro, the prejudices of the cuban people were not wiped over-night by the cuban revolution.


They eliminated racism in the establisment in &#39;59.The Campaigns were used to eliminate racist values of some of the cuban people.There still is racism by individuals but they are a minority and do not influence the Cuban revolution.


And I assume you are refering to Castro,well its my opinion that the Cuban communist party represents the Cuban people and is not a dictatorship ruled by Castro.

Severian answered that quite adaquetly.

BTW,Black Dagger what is your actual stance on cuba?

[wei]

Originally posted by [email protected] 15 2005, 04:33 AM
i cant understand how any revolutionary can trust the words if the cia. fidel and che were very good friends, why would he do something so stupid as to send him on a death trip. if the radio wasnt busted every true supporter of revolutions would knows that fidel would have done everything in his power to help him, but he couldnt cuz there was no way he could contact him. if fidel was asked to go with him to bolivia he couldnt have gone because without castro in cuba the revolution would have gotten attacked and even destroyed and thats a fact.noone in there right mind would suggest that fidel send him on a death trip because because, how much better would things have turned out for the cuba if he was alive today ?who knows maybe che is in bolivia right now because rumor has it Che lives. che also wanted all of latin america to turn into a vietnam (guerila warfare all over the continent). its looking like it is more and more as the years go by. venezuela, bolivia, brazil, argentina and many more latin american countries are tuning pro socialist/communist and anti american. not a snowflaks chance in hell would fidel have send him on a death trip&#33;



viva fidel
viva fidel
viva fidel
I agreen "fidel - che" &#39;s comments.

I respect Fidel, he is a good man and a great politicans. He experienced much things and time with Che, every one can imagine what a deep friendship they have.


I love Che, I love Fidel.

[Knowledge 6 6 6]

Originally posted by [email protected] 17 2005, 11:53 AM

If they &#39;eliminated&#39; all &#39;anti-black&#39; discrimination in 1959 why would they have done &#39;many anti-racism campaigns ever since&#39;? You honestly think that legislating or proclaming a rhetorical end to &#39;racism&#39; actually means it no exists? Racism existed under Batista and continues under Castro, the prejudices of the cuban people were not wiped over-night by the cuban revolution.


They eliminated racism in the establisment in &#39;59.The Campaigns were used to eliminate racist values of some of the cuban people.There still is racism by individuals but they are a minority and do not influence the Cuban revolution.


And I assume you are refering to Castro,well its my opinion that the Cuban communist party represents the Cuban people and is not a dictatorship ruled by Castro.

Severian answered that quite adaquetly.

BTW,Black Dagger what is your actual stance on cuba?
You can defend Cuba to the utmost; but in reality, you&#39;d never live under Castro and that&#39;s a fact.

If your Castro&#39;s so omnipotent, then why don&#39;t you immigrate to Cuba? Why don&#39;t you live there? Why don&#39;t you become a Cuban? So many ppl in the west say this and that about America and glorify Cuba, as if it&#39;s some haven. Granted, North America&#39;s not the best place in the world...but damn, we&#39;re the industrialization centre. Tell me if you can read this post when you live in Cuba...oh wait, no internet access. Nevermind.

Love it or leave it dammit.

[red_orchestra]

not quite true.... Cuba does have internet access in some areas. You just have to look closely for them.

[Anarcho-Communist]

It is possible that Fidel Castro betrayed Ernesto "Che" Guevara in his years of guerilla work in the country of Bolivia, which lead to his death by the CIA. :D

[Severian]

It&#39;s possible you fuck porcupines. Can you prove you don&#39;t?

Please read the thread. If you have any actual evidence to support this accusation against Fidel Castro, or any argument which has not been made already, feel free to post it.