Hugo Chavez

[Leif Erikson]

Thoughts?

[Hate Is Art]

I strongly behind el Hugo, have you read any of the Hands of Venezuela pamphlets. It can really go either way, we could end up in a disaster or a new exciting attempt to build on a democratic socialist mandate.

We have to do everything to try and secure the revolution.

If you want any info on the HoV campaign PM me or something.

Welcome to the board BTW.

[Conghaileach]

Chavez has just cut all ties (http://www.revolutionaryleft.com/index.php?showtopic=32369) to the US puppet-government in Colombia.

Interesting times ahead, I'd say.

[UtopicImperium]

I am from Venezuela, and it looks like he is the future since after so many counterrevolutionary attempts to overthrow him have failed.

Now, im not that fond of him though since he always seems to have two different faces; its really hard to REALLY know him or what he is trying to do.
I do however, enjoy his attitude towards the US. PDVSA, the oil company in here is trying to stop giving oil to the US.

[NyChe21]

Agreed. I just looked at an article which listed some of the trade reforms he's basically demanded from any outside investor, and I yelled out in joy.....literally. I wrote an article about the Free Trade Area of the Americas and how it would not benefit Latin Americans in the least (maybe the rich, but not the masses). I think that the land reform is a bit too radical and too fast but I guess we'll have to wait and see.


From the article containing some details on the PDVSA reform:

"Venezuela implemented an updated hydrocarbons law in January 2002 that raised royalties paid by private companies to 20 to 30 percent from the previous 1 to 16.66 percent. The law also guaranteed state oil company PDVSA at least a 51 percent stake in any project regarding exploration, production, transportation and initial storage of oil. "


The 51% rule has helped make free trade fair in industrial factories in Thailand after they pulled out the neoliberal International Monetary Fund after the collapse of its economy. Other Southeast Asian countries have had similar reforms and they have helped with economic growth among the working class because the money is no longer flowing out of the country to the pockets of foreign investors. Now, 51% of the profits stay within the country for better distribution of income.

[Hate Is Art]

The defeat of the bosses lock-out was one of the best days of my life.

[h&s]

Chavez may be doing some good stuff (god how I laughted this morning when I saw an article in the Telegraph about some toff complaining about how Chavez personally made sure that this guy's massive ranch was seized) but is he actually a revolutionary? Has he nationalised all major industreis to let the workers take over? Is he a communist? No - he is a reformist and we do not support reformists. Chavez is no different.

[T_SP]

Originally posted by h&[email protected] 15 2005, 03:33 PM
Chavez may be doing some good stuff (god how I laughted this morning when I saw an article in the Telegraph about some toff complaining about how Chavez personally made sure that this guy's massive ranch was seized) but is he actually a revolutionary? Has he nationalised all major industreis to let the workers take over? Is he a communist? No - he is a reformist and we do not support reformists. Chavez is no different.
H&S is right here, I don't think Chavez has any intention of leading a revolution. There is no doubt what he has achieved so far is good but unless he follows these meagre reforms thru Venezula will just fall into a State Capitalist regime!
What is not helping is Alan Woods input into it!

[fuerzasocialista]

Chavez may be doing some good stuff (god how I laughted this morning when I saw an article in the Telegraph about some toff complaining about how Chavez personally made sure that this guy's massive ranch was seized) but is he actually a revolutionary? Has he nationalised all major industreis to let the workers take over? Is he a communist? No - he is a reformist and we do not support reformists. Chavez is no different.

Exactly. I have kept in contact with a friend in Caracas and she has told me that Chavez support still remains high. It still good to see a president of a Latin American country that isn't a coward in the face of the U$ and openly critizes it. Now mind you Chavez has been calling these sets of reforms a revolution in itself. Infact in spanish its called "La Revolucion Bolivariana" after Simon Bolivar. However, there are problems within Venezuela's framework that have been there since Chavez was elected.

The main problem out of all of this (and its a good lesson to show that a revolution, no matter what, is always needed) is the opposition. Chavez suffered an almost successful coup against him in 2002. Although he was returned to power in a few hours, the opposition has still remained intact. Infact, the opposition has been receiving aide from the worms in Miami and the pro-U$ Colombian government. The oppositon also managed to assassinate Danilo Anderson, a government attorney who was investigating several prominent oppositon leaders with regards to the 2002 failed coup among other things. That occured late last November.

Its almost impossible to launch a peaceful revolution especially from within a Latin American country, especially one such as Venezuela. The reason I mention that is because Venezuela has a resource that the U$ would love to get its hands on: Oil. Chavez has been diverting the revenue from the oil and investing them in social welfare and healthcare programs. This is one of the reasons he is enjoying popualr support especially from the Proletariat of his country. But the fact remains, he still has an opposition to deal with who are more than willing to kill him and his administration. I have to say though, we still don't know if this could be leading up to a revolution. I feel that there is that possibilty.

[NyChe21]

I would also like to question the feasibility of a violent revolution in Latin America. Do you think the U$ would stand by and let that happen like they do with other places???

[fuerzasocialista]

I would also like to question the feasibility of a violent revolution in Latin America. Do you think the U$ would stand by and let that happen like they do with other places???

Any revolution in Latin America will be met with agression from the U$. In Chile, Salvador Allende met a bloody end in a coup sponsered by the CIA that installed Pinochet as dictator. Allende won by election and because he was a Leftist and the U$ "took care fo him". Thats why Hugo Chavez has been trying to modernize the armed forces of Venezuela.

[Rage Against the Right]

I saw today that Chavez cancelled negotiations with the COlombian government today on a few issue's because of their detainment of a certain FARC guerilla leader. Isn't that a step in the right direction for him?

[USAcommunist]

Chavez----To early to tell yet what type of left policies and goverment he wants to maintain, I do wish him and the people of his country GOOD LUCK and hope they can sucsessfully maintain a socialist democracy.

[Rage Against the Right]

This seems like a good step for him no

Venezuela's president wants admission from Uribe
Chavez: Capture of rebel leader violated international law
01/16/05 06:27 PM, EST
Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez said Sunday he was willing to meet with his Colombian counterpart to discuss a dispute over the recent abduction of a Colombian rebel on Venezuelan soil which led to a freeze in relations.

Full Story (http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/americas/01/16/venezuela.colombia.ap/index.html)

[fernando]

Wasnt Chavez working sort of together with people like Uribe and Toledo (Peru) nowadays, since Venezuela is part of this "Latin American Economic Union"

[Colombia]

The US on Saturday offered its "100% support" for Colombia's actions.

Hopefully this won't lead to a war between the two nations but now would be a good time for the US to strike.

[UPA]

I am from Maracaibo, a city in the western part of Venezuela. Chavez does not have a lot of support in my city, it is almost non existent. I am a strong believer in a Social Democracy , but unfortunately i do not think that Chavez is the right man for the job. When Chavez first gained power in 1998, the Venezuelan population was optimistic. Even though people were scared because this was a man who had led a coup against Carlos Andres Perez, they still supported him.Why? Because he promised change, he promised the end of corruption, and what have we seen?With Chavez we have seen the most corrupt and hypocritical government in the history of the country. Don't get me wrong, I am completely in favor of a leftist government. But not with this ignorant murdering thief at the helm of it. :angry:

Union Por El Avance

[fuerzasocialista]

Originally posted by [email protected] 22 2005, 05:34 AM
I am from Maracaibo, a city in the western part of Venezuela. Chavez does not have a lot of support in my city, it is almost non existent. I am a strong believer in a Social Democracy , but unfortunately i do not think that Chavez is the right man for the job. When Chavez first gained power in 1998, the Venezuelan population was optimistic. Even though people were scared because this was a man who had led a coup against Carlos Andres Perez, they still supported him.Why? Because he promised change, he promised the end of corruption, and what have we seen?With Chavez we have seen the most corrupt and hypocritical government in the history of the country. Don't get me wrong, I am completely in favor of a leftist government. But not with this ignorant murdering thief at the helm of it. :angry:

Union Por El Avance
My, what a difference of opinion from what I have heard coming out of Venezuela. Chavez won 60% of the recall. Obviously many, many people are happy with him. Social democracy? How about So-cia-li-sm and leave it at that (naturally with a progression to communism). If it comes by democratic means, so be it. If it comes through revolutionary means, oh hells yes.

[UPA]

The fact that he won the recall proves absolutely nothing especially in a country quite famous for electoral fraud.I was there when this happened, and take my word for it the country was shocked.I personally thought Chavez had been defeated by an overwhleming amount, especially after personally observing several voting locations throughout the city. Anyways when Chavez stops wearing 2,000 dollar suits and 10,000 dollar watches like the one you can see him wearing on his weekly television show 'Alo Presidente' i might believe that he is in some way interested in actually helping the people, Instead of just robbing the country blind. Remember this is a man who prior to becoming President was a military officer,and i don't know of any military officer who has 2000-3000 dollar suits like we have underwear.

[UPA]

VENEZUELA Opositores del presidente venezolano Hugo Chávez celebraron una jornada para recabar firmas y solicitar referendos revocatorios en contra de él y 34 diputados oficialistas. Finalmente, a mediados de diciembre entregaron más de 3,4 millones.


Quite a significant amount of people against him, if you detail the picture you can see the crowd runs far towards the background.This is also just a fraction of the opposition located in Caracas.

www.laraza.com/ news.php?nid=12570

[fuerzasocialista]

whats you point? The opposition lost and they know it. That electoral fraud excuse is just that, an excuse. No more excuses.

Do you have receipts for Chavez's clothes and watch?

[UPA]

My point is that he is running that country to the ground, and no i do not have the receipts to his suits or to his watch, but it does not take a receipt to know that an Ermenegildo Zegna suit is worth quite a bit of money. I never stated that i was a member of the opposition, my political views are similar to the one Chavez has, but I do not think that he is the man to be running what he calls a "revolution". A revolution which is taking from the rich, giving a little to the poor and keeping most of it for himself and his friends. Also only please talk about what you know, don't reapeat what you hear or read. I have been living in his government since day one, and Venezuela the gap between the rich and the poor is getting bigger and bigger. How is it possible that Chavez has had the highest price per barrel of oil than any other government, but Venezuela is much worse now than when he came in , in 98.

[Kez]

Try economic sabotage by the ruling class of Venezuela...

[chebol]

A couple of points (I'd write more but I'm very busy):

UPA wrote:
"I am from Maracaibo, a city in the western part of Venezuela. Chavez does not have a lot of support in my city, it is almost non existent."

I wouldn't say non-existent, but, yes, it is considerably less there than in most parts of the country. I'm not going to go into why right now (lack of time and space), but there are at least some reasons.

" i do not think that Chavez is the right man for the job."

You claim you are not part of the opposition, yet you say Chavez is corrupt and hypocritical, echoing the propaganda of the escualidos, you post images of opposition rallies and claim Chavez is ruining the economy and aggravating poverty. These are the same lies as the opposition. You ARE part of the opposition.
It is true that there is coruption in the Chavista camp, as there has been throughout Venezuelan politics. The point is that it is being combatted. The same goes for your ideas of greater distortion between rich and poor. Does universal literacy sound like an increase in poverty to you? How about the medical care, etc. These need to be taken into account, else you will end up with a poverty of philosophy instead of just a philosophy of poverty.

"Even though people were scared because this was a man who had led a coup against Carlos Andres Perez, they still supported him."

WHO was scared of him? The people who voted for him, or the corrupt oligarchs like CAP who had something to lose?

"With Chavez we have seen the most corrupt and hypocritical government in the history of the country."

You have next to no historical perspective. Have you got ANY idea of the raw figures (not including inflation) of the embezzled funds during the 70's 80's and 90's?? This statement is unsupportable rubbish.

"Don't get me wrong, I am completely in favor of a leftist government."

Of what kind?

"But not with this ignorant murdering thief at the helm of it. "

MURDERING??? MURDERING?!?! Lies and propaganda are one thing, but slander is another.

"Also only please talk about what you know, don't reapeat what you hear or read."

So I won't repeat what I read in your lies, because I know better...

"I was there when this happened, and take my word for it the country was shocked.I personally thought Chavez had been defeated by an overwhleming amount, especially after personally observing several voting locations throughout the city."

The country was shocked?? I think not. YOU might have been shocked. The rest of the DELUDED opposition might have gotten a nasty shock too. But the country?
These "several" voting locations you "observed", where were they? Tell us about them.
Incidentally, what suburb do you live in?

H&S wrote:
"Has he nationalised all major industreis to let the workers take over? Is he a communist? No - he is a reformist and we do not support reformists. Chavez is no different. "

And exactly how would nationalising all major industries help right now? The workers have to be organised enough to be able to take over when industry is expropriated. So far, they are not. In some areas (such as oil) there is a long history of state involvement, in others there is a reasonable rate of unionisation (as only one measure of the level of organisation), but the national rate of union membership is only about 15%. It takes more than just nationalisation to make a revolution comrade (take a look at the Hungarian revolution of 1919 for just how badly things can go wrong).
Is he a communist? Apparently not.
Is he a 'revolutionary' democrat? Yes.
Is he a revolutionary democrat who is opposed to allowing (or helping) the revolution pass over into an anti-burgeois revolution? Certainly not. The exact opposite, in fact.
We ought to dwell on this last point long and hard. Of course, it's not just Chavez who makes the revolution, it's the people, so we need to see if the people are consciously organising to overthrow the system (as opposed to merely a government). Are they organising a coherent party dedicated to marxist revolution? And what role is Chavez playing in this?

These are the factors we need to be addressing, not just whingeing about a lack of nationalisation.

[Scottish_Militant]

H&S is right here, I don't think Chavez has any intention of leading a revolution. There is no doubt what he has achieved so far is good but unless he follows these meagre reforms thru Venezula will just fall into a State Capitalist regime!
What is not helping is Alan Woods input into it!


What are you talking about??

[The Feral Underclass]

Originally posted by Leif [email protected] 14 2005, 06:42 PM
Thoughts?
He is yet another politician using moderate left-wing rhetoric to create a power base for himself.

He is not Salvadar Allende.

[chebol]

No, he's not Allende. Clearly he's of a different height, build, age, nationality, etc.
And he has claimed not to be a marxist.
He HAS however learnt some of the lessons of Chile.

It's a little more than "moderate" and it's hardly just rhetoric.
I REALLY suggest you take a close look at what is happening in Venezuela at the moment. It's by no means decided yet, but the stakes are escalating, and it's reaching a "with us or against us" point.

As to the Grantites, I think they're doing some useful work there, in the main. The main problem I've detected is a certain grandiose attitude towards the process and their role in it, and some classic ultra-trotskyist behaviour. Other than that they're generally behaving OK (although how they justify supporting Chavez but still maintain their position on Cuba I'll never know), their website is good too, so saying that they're "not helping" is a bit harsh.

[Scottish_Militant]

The CMI's position is not to 'suck up' to Chavez, like some sects have accused us of, Chavez is doing good things yes, but let's not forget that it is the pressure from the masses that is moving him, it is the masses that is keeping him in power and pushing him to the left.

From a recent IDOM article

http://www.marxist.com/Latinam/venepal_nationalised.htm

In his intervention, Chavez stated that capitalism is a model based on slavery, “and this is why in Washington they are angry, because we want to liberate ourselves from capitalism, in the same way that they were angry many years ago with the ideas of Libertador Simon Bolivar”.

Referring to Condoleeza Rice’s recent criticisms of Venezuela, he said that there are good remedies in the market to cure ulcers, “for those who might need it”. He added that some might be annoyed at what is happening in Venezuela, but “they will continue to be annoyed by the revolutionary process, because no one is going to dislodge us from it”.

Chavez added that the “role of the workers in this model is fundamental and this is the difference between this model and the capitalist model”. He emphasised that “it is necessary to change the productive relations”.

“Capitalism wants to annihilate the workers... here we are carrying out a process of liberation of the workers, and this is why they are annoyed in Washington”.

Paraphrasing Lenin, Chavez said, “neoliberal capitalism is the highest stage of capitalist madness.”

“In Venezuela we are at war, but not invading other countries or violating other countries’ sovereignty... here we are at war against misery and poverty”.

----------------------

Anyone who can not see the significance of this revolutionary situation because of the involvement of the CMI should not be reffering to themselves as revolutionaries because they are petty sectarians.

Instead of talking about the huge possibilities and the explosive situation in Venezuela we have so called Trotskyists saying "Alan Woods says this, Alan Woods says that, he is so wrong"

Is this the best these "revolutionary parties" can do? When faced with a genuine revolution they turn themselves to face a fellow socialist organisation - and attack them!

Whilst doing what to further the cause of the Bolivarian revolution? Nothing, thats what.

If we take a look at the latest article on IDOM we see clearly that the masses are by far the most important factor in this revolutionary process

http://www.marxist.com/Latinam/chavez_nationalisations.htm

"At every decisive turn in the Revolution, the role of the different classes has become manifest. The bankers, landlords and capitalists have resisted the Revolution, sabotaged it and attempted to overthrow it. And who saved the Revolution at every stage? It was the masses, and the working class in the first place, who saved the Revolution in the coup of April 2002, and it was the workers who saved it at the time of the bosses’ lockout that was designed to paralyse the economy and bring it to its knees. Finally, it was the masses who rallied magnificently to the defence of the Revolution in the August referendum that inflicted a crushing blow to the counterrevolution."

It would be helpful for those wishing to attack the CMI's position on Venezuela to actually learn it first, they might find they actually agree! But often the most bitter sectarians would do anything to disagree, sadly.

It's sad really, we witness a revolution, a real revolution, and yet bickering from the left cannot even lay aside it's diffrences to fight for the victory of socialism and the working class.

[Scottish_Militant]

(although how they justify supporting Chavez but still maintain their position on Cuba I'll never know),

What is our position on Cuba? How do you define "supporting" Chavez? (conditionless blind support or critical support?) And how many comparisons can you draw between the Cuban revolution and the current Bolivarian revolution in Venezuela?

It is unfair to bundle all this together, the situations were, and are, very different.

[Hate Is Art]

He is yet another politician using moderate left-wing rhetoric to create a power base for himself.

He is not Salvadar Allende.

Why do you think this?

It is also quite clear he is not Allende.