Progression vs. Morality

[Individual]

My thoughts on genetic engineering and the reproduction of humans genetically..? I am not sure whether to allow myself thoughts on this. There is a great morality involved, and morality has always been a touchy and trivial subject for me... There are questions with answers, yet most of the answers boil down to universal truths vs. individual interpretations of good and bad … What are we as humans? Are we simply scientific matter, composed of chemicals that can be manipulated (under the practice of GE) into what we believe is better?

Are we individual minds, complete with emotions, souls, and spirits? Simply an unidentifiable mind, or minds? Or might we be both – this is the option that I believe, but still will no subscribe too.

Now on genetic engineering – Should we tamper with a power as great as to manipulate nature, the natural process of scientific understanding as we know it? Manipulating, only to make better (in the sense that certain men would believe), seems like a concept from Hitler and his plan for a “master race”… Honestly though, I do not see much difference – Instead of killing off immediate, living, human beings – we would be killing off the lives of what are to come.

Some things in life are unchangeable – or at least do not need to be changed. Altering with a natural process will harbor consequences we can only dream of – and I don’t imply these as good consequences. Genetically engineering human beings to get rid of things such as disease, or abilities, is tampering with a natural balance. As morbid as this may sound; I believe there is such thing as natural population control – diseases et cetera – Now while I don’t believe we need to get rid of people as we are, some things happen for reasons. Maybe certain things truly are above are heads.

Should we, as a whole (society), allow for the unknown change in technology, the unknown change in mankind itself? Think of the immediate repercussions that would come from allowing this “progression” to happen… The ability of a few; to engineer, literally, enough humans that within a very short (Earthly) time period -- nearly entire cultures will fall under the judgment of a selected few men – Men greatly influences by the dollar.

Who is to regulate what is truly done to these genes? Who is to stop a disaster, should one arise, within living human beings? What if we do not discover the disaster for tens, if not hundreds, of years.. Leaving the genes to greatly grow in number, generation through generation? Then, even discovering the disaster, how do we take care of it? Simply cancel out the “project” – “pull the plug” on their “little experiment”? This “experiment” would be living, breathing, thinking human beings.. Would we then explain to these living humans:

“Oops.. Sorry – but we are going to have to kill you, as well as the rest of your entire family… Why you ask? Oh yeah, well you see – We made a minor error – We screwed up, so now you have to die.”

Doesn’t sound like too good of circumstances for those that have absolutely no say as to what happens to their own lives.

Sounding a bit more like Nazi Germany now?

All that it would take is one wrong gene – in one living person – for a serious and morally wrong problem to arise.

For another comparison – one by the sound of things is not as harsh as Hitler’s plan -- instead, Hollywood. Or should I take that back.. Horrifyingly worse than Hitler; maybe not, but here goes:

Have we come to a point in our society, our American society, where we truly wish that everything be “perfect”? What is perfect anyway? Five foot eight, blonder hair, blue eyes, one hundred-sixty pounds with permanent six pack, Brad Pitt’s nose, and an immunity to the already common cold? Is perfect avoiding the lessons of life so that you won’t have to endure the fact that your child may be mentally abstract? We are all the same, human beings. What else can we hope for?

Some things in life happen, whether we want them to or not, shit happens. Preventing the possibility that your child might contract an impairing illness? How lazy have we become? Can we not accept the responsibility of life?

How about this.. Since when have we decided we hold the powers of God? They mean to tell me that through all the advancements in science, all of the so-called answers, our intelligence leads us to believe that we should have a chance at rolling the dice of life? That we know enough that we can spit in the face of the unknown – we can tamper with something as sacred as life itself. Whether you believe in creation or science and objective reasoning – We did not create ourselves! And now we trust ourselves enough to believe that we know just exactly what it is we are doing? It has taken millions, upon billions of years to get us to this point.. And we have enough confidence in ourselves to alter billions of years of development and refinement all within on simple procedure?

Excuse me, but we need to brush the confidence right off of our shoulders. Who do we think we are? Last I checked, God didn’t have a PO Box!

Now I could very well keep rambling on and on – I’ve barely tapped into morality. I would like to end all of this with a question, one as simple to change an entire mode of thinking..

For those that follow the bible and the morality that follows. For those with belief in the idea that everything is pre-determined and above our heads – I ask you this:

The technology is there. We have reached a point of intelligence – We can genetically engineer ourselves to better certain irregularities and problems in the world. Might this not be an outcome, a new door of what can be? Should we not progress as we can? If everything is pre-determined – even if not – we have the possibility.

Now do we stop progression?

:mellow:

[Professor Moneybags]

Perfect or imperfect, we're all human aren't we ? We all have rights (sort of) don't we ?

[redstar2000]

Should it someday turn out to be possible to genetically engineer humans without the "defects" that we presently suffer from...I see no rational reason not to do so.

"God" and "nature" may be just fine with unnecessary pain and suffering; civilized humans have a different view.

:redstar2000:

The Redstar2000 Papers (http://www.redstar2000papers.fightcapitalism.net)
A site about communist ideas

[synthesis]

Man, I sure am glad opinions like yours are headed straight for the dustbin of history - if they aren't there already.

[Individual]

Should it someday turn out to be possible to genetically engineer humans without the "defects" that we presently suffer from...I see no rational reason not to do so.

We can't even develop medicine without negative side effects. What makes you think we will be perfectly successful our first round through genetic engineering? That is all it will take..

I am surprised you are in favor.. Aren't you opposed to the idea of capitalism? The government would have no regulation over this practice. Let alone, if they did, would you really want them too?

Don't tell me you were one of the morons that voted in favor of the California bill to legalize research for stem cells?


Man, I sure am glad opinions like yours are headed straight for the dustbin of history - if they aren't there already.

Excellent rebuttal..! Now where do I start?

Are you sure you read my entire post? I have a feeling you didn't. I express no solid views either way, you would have figured this out had you read..

[synthesis]

Since when have we decided we hold the powers of God? They mean to tell me that through all the advancements in science, all of the so-called answers, our intelligence leads us to believe that we should have a chance at rolling the dice of life? That we know enough that we can spit in the face of the unknown – we can tamper with something as sacred as life itself. Whether you believe in creation or science and objective reasoning – We did not create ourselves! And now we trust ourselves enough to believe that we know just exactly what it is we are doing? It has taken millions, upon billions of years to get us to this point.. And we have enough confidence in ourselves to alter billions of years of development and refinement all within on simple procedure?

Doesn't look too uncertain to me, comrade. ;)

[Individual]

Tell me just what exactly it is you are trying to say?

Don't just throw my own damn quote at me.. Give me your opinion at least.

Do you believe we created ourselves or something? Because that is part of what you imply are theories ready for the dustbin..

Do you not believe we took millions of years to get to this stage of human existence?

I mean honestly.. Just what is it you are trying to say? I subtly, but substantially, changed arguments in the end. Really, it could go either way. Just what is it, that you don't agree with, that is so intellectually superior to anything I had to say..

I'd love to hear it!

[redstar2000]

(Cue heavy music) There are things that Man was not meant to know... (Cue lightning strike and rolling thunder).

As Scott Adams (Dilbert) put it, you are definitely an in-duh-vidual.

:redstar2000:

The Redstar2000 Papers (http://www.redstar2000papers.fightcapitalism.net)
A site about communist ideas

[T_SP]

Originally posted by [email protected] 15 2005, 02:59 AM
Should it someday turn out to be possible to genetically engineer humans without the "defects" that we presently suffer from...I see no rational reason not to do so.

"God" and "nature" may be just fine with unnecessary pain and suffering; civilized humans have a different view.

:redstar2000:

The Redstar2000 Papers (http://www.redstar2000papers.fightcapitalism.net)
A site about communist ideas
This statement is bordering on Fascist! Creating perfect humans?!?!? WTF you on?? I suppose you'd like a world full of Redstars eh?

[Individual]

This statement is bordering on Fascist! Creating perfect humans?!?!? WTF you on?? I suppose you'd like a world full of Redstars eh?

Bingo! Thank you, maybe redstar will have some silly comment in which he believes to prove you wrong as well.. Let us here it.


(Cue heavy music) There are things that Man was not meant to know... (Cue lightning strike and rolling thunder).

As Scott Adams (Dilbert) put it, you are definitely an in-duh-vidual.

This has exactly what to do with anything I said? I take this as in you jumped to conclusions, fell into the wrong side of the argument once again, and now you have no idea how to get yourself out.

Engineering humans .. Perfect humans .. You advocating stateless, classless society. Mui Amono

[redstar2000]

Originally posted by T_SP
This statement is bordering on Fascist! Creating perfect humans?!?!? WTF you on?? I suppose you'd like a world full of Redstars eh?

Who said anything about "perfect"?

And how is it "fascist" to modify human genes so as to confer immunity from debilitating illnesses or crippling developmental diseases?

Or, if it turns out to be possible, to make humans more intelligent?

Or, perhaps, "better looking" (whatever that might mean)?

Why do you (and In-duh-vidual) piss yourselves at such prospects?

Because mistakes might be made in the initial trials? Because we "mere mortals" are daring to "tamper with God's business"?

Both of you morons should go live in a cave and eat carrion! You may well have learned to use indoor plumbing and wear shoes...but your mind-set is paleolithic.

:redstar2000:

The Redstar2000 Papers (http://www.redstar2000papers.fightcapitalism.net)
A site about communist ideas

[T_SP]

Originally posted by redstar2000+Jan 15 2005, 08:14 PM--> (redstar2000 @ Jan 15 2005, 08:14 PM)
T_SP
This statement is bordering on Fascist! Creating perfect humans?!?!? WTF you on?? I suppose you'd like a world full of Redstars eh?

Who said anything about "perfect"?

And how is it "fascist" to modify human genes so as to confer immunity from debilitating illnesses or crippling developmental diseases?

Or, if it turns out to be possible, to make humans more intelligent?

Or, perhaps, "better looking" (whatever that might mean)?

Why do you (and In-duh-vidual) piss yourselves at such prospects?

Because mistakes might be made in the initial trials? Because we "mere mortals" are daring to "tamper with God's business"?

Both of you morons should go live in a cave and eat carrion! You may well have learned to use indoor plumbing and wear shoes...but your mind-set is paleolithic.

:redstar2000:

The Redstar2000 Papers (http://www.redstar2000papers.fightcapitalism.net)
A site about communist ideas[/b]
Perfection was implied here!!!
You then go on to prove my point:



Or, if it turns out to be possible, to make humans more intelligent?

Or, perhaps, "better looking" (whatever that might mean)?



What the hell is better looking? Hell I'm no oil painting but only someone as deep as a puddle would wish to be better looking! Why more intelligent? What a boring world it would be if we were all mindless robots genetically modified by some Frakenstein fanatic in a lab!
And what's to say that yet worse problems or illnesses would be derived from tinkering with humans DNA etc. It may iradicate cancer only to produce some weird 'super cancer'. This is not about playing God but messing with life's natural order! For me evolution is doing a good enough job on it's own without humans messing around with it, by trying to speed up the process we could create all kinds of nightmares.
Also how can humans be expected to not 'fuck it up' hell we've managed to fuck up the world around us!

We cannot create perfection as we our selves are not perfect. Perfection does not exist so we have nothing to measure it by.

[T_SP]

Both of you morons should go live in a cave and eat carrion! You may well have learned to use indoor plumbing and wear shoes...but your mind-set is paleolithic.


Uhuhuhuh, me make fire now!!
Uhuhuhuhuhuh, me make square wheel! :lol: :lol: :lol:


paleolithic?? Realsitic more like&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33; <_<

[Vinny Rafarino]

paleolithic?? Realsitic more like&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33; dry.gif

Realistic to someone who knows absolutely nothing about genetic engineering that is.

Paleolithic to the rest of us.

Considering that the two advocates against genetic engineering think that there is some natural "order" to life and in some cases feel that diseases and natural disasters do "things for a reason" even though they both lack the necessary consciousness required to perform an action that has predetermined results, it&#39;s not surprising at all if these two cats find future solace in "God&#39;s arms".

I suggest you two leave the GE to those that are not bound by such absurd superstitions.

[Individual]

Who said anything about "perfect"?

And how is it "fascist" to modify human genes so as to confer immunity from debilitating illnesses or crippling developmental diseases?

Or, if it turns out to be possible, to make humans more intelligent?

Or, perhaps, "better looking" (whatever that might mean)?

Why do you (and In-duh-vidual) piss yourselves at such prospects?

Because mistakes might be made in the initial trials? Because we "mere mortals" are daring to "tamper with God&#39;s business"?

Both of you morons should go live in a cave and eat carrion&#33; You may well have learned to use indoor plumbing and wear shoes...but your mind-set is paleolithic.

We&#39;ve all asked me, numerous times, what my political beliefs are.

I am now asking you to look twice at your own.

Redstar, answer this question.. Were you one of those morons that would have voted in California in favor of the stem cell research?

Had you initially read the entire post, you would have realized I left an extreme question at the end of all that... Now do we stop progression?

Get over yourself and your mongering over myself, just read all of what I have to say. You might find meaning where it wasn&#39;t suspected.

Can you truly not see the contradiction between a stateless, classless society and your support of genetic engineering?

You probably fell under the same curtain when genetic engineering became known as genetic modification. Simple minded people falling for simple minded advertising. Engineering of living things has a bad ring to it. Modifying sounds a whole lot better.

Boy, your fellow Marxists just love (http://www.marxist.com/scienceandtech/genetic_engineering.html) genetic engineering in the worlds agriculture. Just imagine their (Marxists.com) thoughts on human life&#33;

Get your shit straight redstar. Just what is your political ideology? By the sounds of it, fucking scum.

You outright disgust me. You have hit bottom before, but you&#39;ve taken that cake and ran with it this time. How anyone can call you a comrade beats the shit out of me.

Making certain humans more intelligent? Are you fucking kidding me? I wish I could spit in your face&#33;

Make us "better looking".. Should I even bother pointing out the contradiction of being a Marxist and the effect of actually making selected individuals "better-looking"

Call me a libertarian? I dare call you a fucking dog, let alone Marxist.

You know, if I actually took you serious on this one, I would take off in exposing what you have said. Instead, I just have to laugh.. If you would have taken long enough to form an educated opinion on this instead of doing it in sake of opposing me, I would take you more serious.

I&#39;ll give you the benefit of the doubt that you don&#39;t literally harbor such horrific views, you just jumped the gun.


And how is it "fascist" to modify human genes so as to confer immunity from debilitating illnesses or crippling developmental diseases?

How is it fascist? I figured you&#39;d ask, you obviously hadn&#39;t thought of it prior to your comments.

Fascist in the sense of selective therapy. The rich, or powerful, dictate who has access to any therapy. Just as easily, who is going to moniter who gets good genes, and who get bad genes?

Just who is going to moniter to make sure just one individual doesn&#39;t contract a serious illness. Maybe giving it to an 18 year old black male living in projects in New Orleans. Hell, he&#39;s living in poverty.

All that it takes is one individual, with one pair of bad genes. All that it takes is one individual, engineering one pair of bad genes, to wipe out generations upon generations of living individuals.

You do the fucking math.

Sure, your lovely and trusting government can moniter that. I don&#39;t care what political ideology you live under, NOBODY is going to get control over my life, or future generations lives. Nobody&#33;

Let alone.. Do you not realize the purpose of genetic engineering?

It is not because we need it. It is not because the world is going to end if we don&#39;t.

Why? It is for profit. Just who do you think has the money and technology to operate such a system?

It sure as hell isn&#39;t the government. Big corporations are the ones with the technology, they are just waiting for the go ahead. You don&#39;t think that patend upon patend has already been issued to the means of this technology?

How about your favorite: making us more intelligent.

You are obviously no big fan of Isaac Asimov or George Orwell.. As a matter of fact, I remember reading your take on what you know about George Orwell and Animal Farm. Let me tell you, it wasn&#39;t much. You ripped the book apart, loaded with false information and your only consistant cover-up "I don&#39;t remember exactly -- because I never really read it -- but I can try and slip that I am a retired citizen and my memory fades me" ... Anyway, regardless of your claims.. Read Asimov, you might grasp the easy, core reason, as to why we don&#39;t engineer intelligence into humans.

I can&#39;t believe I am even having to explain this to you, out of all people. It seems you are going downhill and becoming over confident in your un-touchable Marxist persona.

You are forgetting very basic concepts of your ideology.

Making humans more intelligent through genetic engineering. You should join stand-up.

Would that be everyone that would become more intelligent? Would one person be able to diagnose better "intelligence" genes for every human on Earth? Could that be arranged, because otherwise I trust nobody.

You said you were never much on Nietzsche&#39;s concept of a will to power? I bet you&#39;d love the concept after your intelligence gene growth.

You are sickening. I hope all read this and expose either your ignorance, or hidden political theory. I would hate to have to call you a fascist; hopefully you haven&#39;t fallen so low.


Realistic to someone who knows absolutely nothing about genetic engineering that is.

Great RAF, I forgot you were the expert on everything. Please, because my thoughts are so paleolithic, hell, maybe even prehistoric -- I&#39;d love to hear a complete lesson on Genetic Engineering.

That is, of course, assuming your head will ever come out of your ass.

Are you going to march in line with your internet buddy? Because you know I&#39;d love to expose you for sickening beliefs as well. :)

[synthesis]

To answer your question, it could be postulated that progress lies in overcoming the hysteria of the ignorant ;)

[Individual]

This is like a fucking carnival.. One short insult after another.. None of which even touch the idea of rebunking what I have to say.. Instead, simply insults on how ignorant and prehistoric my knowledge is..

You all are great&#33;


To answer your question, it could be postulated that progress lies in overcoming the hysteria of the ignorant

If you could even bother to explain how I am ignorant to this issue, start explaining now..

Hysteria of the ignorant? Such as this new class of Marxists -- the ones that wish to further a selective group of peoples health, intelligence, survival rate, physical and mental power, and physical appearance above the rest of society.

You should write a new page for your webpage.. Social Equality now complete with super-human powers for a special low price&#33;

Can those in poverty afford their monthly rent?

Now just what do you believe the chances are for them to get genetically engineered?

I am one ignorant bastard.. Let me tell you&#33;

[Individual]

:)

[Exploited Class]

Although you start in a decent debatable direction on Genetic Engineering, you use extremes in comparison, such as hitler and nazis, and then go on to use terms like, "natural order" of things.

First off, if anybody is having issues with the natural order of things, I suggest you also argue against dams, bridges, the use of electricity, wireless communication. Did nature really intend for humans to be able to communicate instantly? OH NOES. NATURE WILL KILL US.

The arguments you made are just as likely to be used for us to not develop antibiotics, hey you have a bacteria infection, too bad nature intended it.

Don&#39;t use a wheelchair, nature intended you to die in nature.

Now if you want to argue on what prospects of what exact things should GE be used to fix, you have something then. I am not 100% comfortable on what we should consider a defect or a problem. Is there anything morally wrong with fixing a gene that causes a chronic heart condition or arthritis, probably not. Now delve into fixing blindness or deafness. These are communities that consider themselves not handicapped at all but only a different faucet of our society. Those of us that can hear and see, assume that those who can not wish to be like us.

I am surely not comfortable with the fact that just 30 years ago, homosexuality was a mental disorder in the BDSM III. If Genetic Engineering had came prior to the removal of that "mental defect" would we have perhaps repaired those people prior to birth as well?

I do not know if I would want to fix somebody that might be mentally retarded, doing so makes it seem to me that we are saying something is wrong with them as they are now. I am not very comfortable with that.

Mental Illnesses are touchy.

I would debate and talk about the above, but the whole "what mother nature" intends is a ridiculous notion. That would assume that we can even know what nature&#39;s intended wants or course is.

Much like God&#39;s will, everybody&#39;s interpretation of God&#39;s will is different. So it is impossible to debate such a notion.

[redstar2000]

Originally posted by T_SP+--> (T_SP)Why more intelligent? What a boring world it would be if we were all mindless robots genetically modified by some Frankenstein fanatic in a lab&#33;[/b]

I can understand why you fear increased intelligence on the part of others...you have a difficult enough time as it is.

Frankenstein, eh? A novel written 189 years ago and made into a movie 74 years ago.

And all very relevant to the present and the future. :lol:

Moreover, what can one say to someone who "thinks" that increased intelligence "means" that we become "mindless robots"?

I&#39;d say we have a good candidate for "gene therapy" here.


For me evolution is doing a good enough job on its own without humans messing around with it; by trying to speed up the process we could create all kinds of nightmares. Also how can humans be expected to not &#39;fuck it up&#39; -- hell we&#39;ve managed to fuck up the world around us&#33;

Evolution is very costly in terms of human pain and suffering; it&#39;s not a conscious process and is therefore indifferent to our desires.

We are conscious and see no reason to put up with the caprice of nature when we can do better.

And we often can...even inspite of our mistakes.


InDUHvidual
Redstar, answer this question.. Were you one of those morons that would have voted in California in favor of the stem cell research?

I don&#39;t vote in capitalist "elections".

I have no objection to stem-cell research whatsoever.


Can you truly not see the contradiction between a stateless, classless society and your support of genetic engineering?

None at all. Do you think a classless society will "stop doing science"? Especially science with the promise of genetic "engineering"?


Engineering of living things has a bad ring to it.

Not to me.


Fascist in the sense of selective therapy. The rich, or powerful, dictate who has access to any therapy. Just as easily, who is going to monitor who gets good genes, and who gets bad genes?

Genetic therapy, like all science in class society, will be placed at the service of the ruling class...if one still exists.

So what?

The implication of your question is that "there will always be a ruling class"...and "therefore" science is "bad" and even "fascist".


All that it takes is one individual, engineering one pair of bad genes, to wipe out generations upon generations of living individuals.

Of potential "living individuals"...exactly what happens, as a matter of fact, every time you masturbate.

Cue theme: Every sperm is sacred...


I don&#39;t care what political ideology you live under, NOBODY is going to get control over my life, or future generations lives. Nobody&#33;

Why don&#39;t you try selling torches and pitchforks on line?


Read Asimov, you might grasp the easy, core reason, as to why we don&#39;t engineer intelligence into humans.

Gee, what a shame that you didn&#39;t just post the "easy, core reason".

As it happens, I have read an enormous amount of Asimov...but he wrote an even more enormous amount. I can&#39;t recall an essay from him on increasing intelligence in humans...but I don&#39;t see why he would be opposed to the project.

The totality of his often brilliant work was very much "pro-science".


Would that be everyone that would become more intelligent?

Yes.

Though a few sad cases (such as yourself and T_SP) might prove intractable.

:redstar2000:

The Redstar2000 Papers (http://www.redstar2000papers.fightcapitalism.net)
A site about communist ideas

[synthesis]

If you could even bother to explain how I am ignorant to this issue, start explaining now..

Not just ignorant, hysterically ignorant.


Get your shit straight redstar. Just what is your political ideology? By the sounds of it, fucking scum.


You outright disgust me. You have hit bottom before, but you&#39;ve taken that cake and ran with it this time. How anyone can call you a comrade beats the shit out of me.


Making certain humans more intelligent? Are you fucking kidding me? I wish I could spit in your face&#33;


I&#39;ll give you the benefit of the doubt that you don&#39;t literally harbor such horrific views, you just jumped the gun.


You are sickening. I hope all read this and expose either your ignorance, or hidden political theory. I would hate to have to call you a fascist; hopefully you haven&#39;t fallen so low.


Are you going to march in line with your internet buddy? Because you know I&#39;d love to expose you for sickening beliefs as well.

[Vinny Rafarino]

Great RAF, I forgot you were the expert on everything. Please, because my thoughts are so paleolithic, hell, maybe even prehistoric -- I&#39;d love to hear a complete lesson on Genetic Engineering.

Why?

Such an immense effort would be a complete waste of my time; you would not understand the material presented or change your mind.

Some men you just can&#39;t reach.

Stick to what you&#39;re good at Boradamus, superstitious predictions of "doom" and "armageddon".


Are you going to march in line with your internet buddy? Because you know I&#39;d love to expose you for sickening beliefs as well

I most certainly am going to "march in line" with RS. Why? Because he is right.

So expose away Shemp; I fully support the use of genetic engineering to cure crippling genetic disorders including all neurological disorders.

[Professor Moneybags]

Originally posted by [email protected] 15 2005, 03:05 PM
This statement is bordering on Fascist&#33;
No change there, then.

[redstar2000]

Originally posted by Exploited Class
Now delve into fixing blindness or deafness. These are communities that consider themselves not handicapped at all but only a different facet of our society. Those of us that can hear and see, assume that those who can not wish to be like us.

I think in these and most cases, we&#39;d be talking about infants or even embryos. People who grow to maturity with deafness or blindness naturally develop a "subculture" that emphasizes the "desirability" of their condition...a perfectly understandable "coping mechanism".

(I have to chuckle at some of my contemporaries when they speak of the "advantages of old age" and how "they wouldn&#39;t be young again for love or money". When a treatment is discovered that really reverses the aging process, most of us old geezers will be knocking each other down in our eagerness to get it.)

Indeed, there have been a few cases where sight has been surgically restored to adults who&#39;ve been blind from birth or early childhood...and the results have been disappointing. The "wiring" in the brain to interpret visual signals isn&#39;t there...and what they "see" is chaotic and unintelligible.


I am surely not comfortable with the fact that just 30 years ago, homosexuality was a mental disorder in the BDSM III. If Genetic Engineering had came prior to the removal of that "mental defect" would we have perhaps repaired those people prior to birth as well?

Probably...just like if the techniques had been available to the Nazis, everyone would have blond hair and blue eyes. Since nutball ideas like that have been discredited, it&#39;s difficult to imagine what the equivalent would be in 2100 or 2200.


I do not know if I would want to fix somebody that might be mentally retarded, doing so makes it seem to me that we are saying something is wrong with them as they are now. I am not very comfortable with that.

Well, there is...something wrong, that is.

Mentally retarded people "look like modern humans" (usually)...but their brains function on the level of our anthropoid ancestors -- perhaps 2 or 3 million years ago.

If we could develop a therapy that would cure or prevent that condition, I can&#39;t imagine that we would not apply it.

Just as I can&#39;t imagine that we wouldn&#39;t "genetically engineer" increased intelligence if we knew how.

Sure, some kind of "ultra-Nazi" might want to limit such techniques to a "master race" and keep the rest of us stupid and willing slaves.

I don&#39;t think that policy would win much popular support. :lol:


Mental Illnesses are touchy.

Here I must agree...we don&#39;t even really understand, in a scientific sense, what a "mental illness" is...and there&#39;s evidence to suggest that a good deal of "mental illness" is nothing but a social construct.

I would be highly suspicious of any proposal to use gene therapy to treat or prevent such dubious "conditions.

You know that even now, millions of kids (mostly boys) are being drugged for "Attention Deficit Disorder" -- meaning kids who don&#39;t want to sit still and pay attention to boring and irrelevant "teachers".

Within another century or two (by the time genetic engineering is practical), we will have hopefully discarded all such mythological "disorders" as others have already been discarded.

But we&#39;ll see.

:redstar2000:

The Redstar2000 Papers (http://www.redstar2000papers.fightcapitalism.net)
A site about communist ideas

[Exploited Class]

Originally posted by [email protected] 16 2005, 06:49 AM
I think in these and most cases, we&#39;d be talking about infants or even embryos. People who grow to maturity with deafness or blindness naturally develop a "subculture" that emphasizes the "desirability" of their condition...a perfectly understandable "coping mechanism".

(I have to chuckle at some of my contemporaries when they speak of the "advantages of old age" and how "they wouldn&#39;t be young again for love or money". When a treatment is discovered that really reverses the aging process, most of us old geezers will be knocking each other down in our eagerness to get it.)






Within another century or two (by the time genetic engineering is practical), we will have hopefully discarded all such mythological "disorders" as others have already been discarded.
My first instinct with blindness and deafness is fix it, fix the embryo. Don&#39;t remove uneccesary challenges that don&#39;t have to be there. Once you have heard Bach, Beatles and watched Fantasia, Amelie; you are going to slap me for even once thinking ethically it wouldn&#39;t be right to let you see or hear those.

It was this PBS 2 hour documentary that makes me think otherwise and exposed the whole subculture thing for deaf people. And a deaf couple with a deaf daughter had a chance to fix his hearing and they were all kinds of pissed off about that and brought up some pretty valid points. That makes me see the other side of the coin, but in all honesty I think there are other emotions at play other than just "there is nothing wrong with us" argument. I think everybody should be given equal chances in life when permitted. I would most certainly like to debate this subject matter with a blind or deaf person that felt that particular way, and not just between two people who have never had to deal with those types of issues.


Probably...just like if the techniques had been available to the Nazis, everyone would have blond hair and blue eyes. Since nutball ideas like that have been discredited, it&#39;s difficult to imagine what the equivalent would be in 2100 or 2200.

I think transexuals would be next, do you fix the thing that makes them feel like the other gender or do you fix their gender? Same goes for crossdessers and transvestites. I would assume that most of the future is going to go in the direction of sexuality or fetishes, you sub-sub cultures perhaps. This is saying, if most of these are even nature and not nuture, which the jury is still out on with regarding transvestites and cross dressers. But yeah it is kind of hard to predict what we will be doing in 200 years from now, if there is even going to be like something like that in 200 years. I think tolerance will win out vs. genetic alterations at that point. Especially if you have a very educated base within a society.


Well, there is...something wrong, that is.

Mentally retarded people "look like modern humans" (usually)...but their brains function on the level of our anthropoid ancestors -- perhaps 2 or 3 million years ago.

If we could develop a therapy that would cure or prevent that condition, I can&#39;t imagine that we would not apply it.

I can&#39;t imagine it not being applied either, am I 100% comfortable with it? No. Do I think that if we have the tools to remove that, we as a society would use it. Yes, yes would most certainly do so. The uncomfortableness I get from this I am sure is 100% selfish. At an early age (4th grade) I started working with these individuals and I am sure I look at them all with rose colored glasses. Jeremy loved everybody and anybody unconditionally and expressed it and it felt good to be on the recieving in. That is obviously me being selfish, if I put those characteristics on top of their hinderances.

Let&#39;s stci me in the room with people who are not able to form languages, that wear helmets because they will bash in their own head, who can&#39;t go to the bathroom by themselves. Let&#39;s remove me from the people who stay child like and innocent to always in a wheelchair always needing assistance and always requiring so much medical condition the quality of life is simply but, horrible for the individual and even the loving family members. I think my emotional ties and comfort level of selfishness is going to disapate rapidly at that point.

And seriously let&#39;s pretend we "fix" one of these people when they are 60. I think they would say, "I am real glad you got some sick self-indulged pleasure from me being 60 and having a 7 year old innocent child like personality, but you know what, I want to have sex, I want to have a family, I want to retain and understand things like the people around me. I sure and hell don&#39;t want to go back to that just for your "comfort leve".



Mental Illnesses are touchy.

Here I must agree...we don&#39;t even really understand, in a scientific sense, what a "mental illness" is...and there&#39;s evidence to suggest that a good deal of "mental illness" is nothing but a social construct.

I would be highly suspicious of any proposal to use gene therapy to treat or prevent such dubious "conditions.

You know that even now, millions of kids (mostly boys) are being drugged for "Attention Deficit Disorder" -- meaning kids who don&#39;t want to sit still and pay attention to boring and irrelevant "teachers".

First off, if we lived in a communist/socialist society, I think we will see a huge decrease in today&#39;s mental health issues just because a drop in daily routine stress. Working less, better schools, smaller schools, educated parents, not constantly worried about the economic ramifications constantly with debt, loans..ect..ect homelessness, hunger, no healthcare. I think a lot of what makes mental illnesses get triggered or rise up is going to go away. That is all gut feeling on my part.

I of course agree with you on this being really touchy. I do feel comfortable saying if certain big mental illnesses can be fixed genetically we will without any consequences. Your Paranoids, Phyzophrenicts, Multiple Personality Disorders. But it does beg the question, we would instantly (well many of us perhaps" let&#39;s fix the self abusers, and here I think we are upset with the coping mechanisms and not what is causing it. It gets really jumbled and it is a very huge subject to ever try and tackle in just one thread.

Martha brought up a good point today, alcoholics and depression, do you want to cure that? Good bye Hemingway, good bye Goya, Picasso....

And if anybody answers that right away, they are cheating themselves and the subject matter at hand. Bi-Polar, would I be for removing even though I am losing a pollock? Wow, tough. Let&#39;s see I get 1000 bi-polar people and one awesome artist out of it, yeah let&#39;s allow 999 people suffer for the sake of good art and entertainment. That is if they are suffering and if we determined that to begin with. I am not comfortable with allowing 999 people suffer for one good piece of art.


Within another century or two (by the time genetic engineering is practical), we will have hopefully discarded all such mythological "disorders" as others have already been discarded.

I&#39;d like to see how a lot of this turns out, it is unfortunate the span of life on average we are given. Perhaps if they hurry up with GE and slow down my aging and increase my life span, I could do. But we all know that they will come out with that technique the day after I have died :)