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View Full Version : The lack of philosophical justifications for god



The Sloth
8th January 2005, 14:30
This could be, more or less, a quick little guide for atheists that are sometimes drawn into a game of logical fallacies with theists...make sure you understand the logical inconsistencies of the other person's argument (there are plenty), which are sometimes hard to spot.

Hmmm, this may take a while for me to write out (I have a bunch of papers in front of me with notes I have taken a few months back), so I would appreciate it if people here would tell me how useful they find this information.

The majority of this information is taken from philosophers such as David Hume and Immanuel Kant. Some of it is taken from as far back as the middle ages from philosophers such as St. Thomas Aquinas.

First of all, before I continue, let me say that it is illogical for the atheists here to proclaim, "there is no god." Conversely, it would also be illogical to assume that "god exists." While there is no evidence for god, remember that it still is a possibility, as 1) absence of evidence is not always evidence of absence, 2) "logic" is restrictive in a sense that it is not necessarily the "only" method of reasoning -- it is possible others will arise.

It is logical, however, to reject the belief in god because there is no "reasonable reason" to do otherwise. You cannot logically assume, "there are no invisible monsters under my bed," because, after all, you don't know that. It's a possibility.

The fact that it is "possible," however, does not give you justification for actually "believing" it to be true.

And that is, after all, one of the primary arguments for atheism.

Anyway, let's get on to the "arguments" regarding god...

1. GOD - as the "necessary being"

Premise -- it is "necessary" for a being to exist that was never "caused" to "cause" the existence of the universe.

This, however, conveniently allows god to be exempt from causation and such, appealing to our sympathy by requesting that this to be overlooked. There is also the fallacy of petitio principii; the conclusion that god owes existence to nothing is a premise, yet the conclusion repeats it without even substantiating such a claim in the first place.

Also...remember that the theists claim there is an "unknown" attribute that god has that allows him to bypass this kind of logic. Well, considering that absolutely no one knows "everything" about the universe, isn't safe to assume that the universe might have an "unknown attribute" that allows it to be, 1) caused without a "causer," 2) exist without ever being "caused" in the first place ?

2. GOD - the "absolute being"

The premise is simple -- since we can conceive of a "hottest," "longest," "best," or "perfect," there must be an "absolute" yardstick for this kind of measurement.

Obviously weak; there is no logical reason to assume that there has to be an "absolute" yardstick for such measurement, especially considering that many cultures find certain morality "subjective," among other things as "subjective."

Also...there is another premise that leads to an illogic conclusion: since we can conceive of something "perfect" or "best," it has to exist. But is this true? I can, for example, conceive of the "most yellow Internet smiley face" -- but does it make it real? I can also conceive of the "tallest and most vicious rabbit named Harry" -- but is he now real, simply because I can imagine him, and use him as an "absolute" yardstick to compare all other "inferior" rabbits to?

3. GOD - the "grand designer"

Self-explanatory; god designed the universe.

I will get into this one later on...but for now, let me just say this: life develops to adapt itself to the environment, not the other way around -- life does not, for example, determine the environment around it. Realistically, in terms of evolution and such, the development of "trait B" is dependent upon "trait A" that preceded it. Explanation will be given later on.

4. GOD - the "prime mover"

Premise -- god is necessary to set "stuff" in motion.

The fundamental principle here is that "anything that initiates change must have been initiated" -- but the principle, again, out of convenience, is not applied to the "Mover." This could go back to the "GOD - the 'necessary being,'" in terms of "unknown attributes" of the universe.

Also...Newton's First Law states a particle would stay at rest or move at a constant velocity if no external force is applied to it. What prevents us from assuming that the universe hasn't "always" been moving in the first place, meaning, why should we assume, instead, that the universe was at one point "not moving"? You cannot really determine either one of these ideas to be "true"; thus, it would be illogical to assume one over the other, but if the theist assumes "one" of them, you can simply claim to be able to assume the other -- and it cannot be refuted.

5. GOD - the "first cause"

This, basically, argues that "everything" needs a cause. David Hume concluded that by "cause" we are, in reality, looking for an "explanation" for the event -- thus, it remains an unfounded (and thus illogical) assumption that everything needs a "cause."

The earlier event is a "cause," the following event is an "effect" -- we can trace these events back to infinity, going back, back, back, baaack. The same is true in terms of tracing it forwards. You can use the example of numbers; n+1, n-1, etc. can go back or forward to infinity. There is not necessarily a "beginning" -- and why should we assume that the universe "needs" a beginning and a cause in the first place? After all, scientists now know of particles that appear "out of thin air" -- seemingly, without a cause. Thus, the idea of "causation" is not a universal phenomenon.

To go back to the example of numbers, it can be deduced that the "first cause" is just as significant and important as "the smallest negative number" -- and how tangible is something like that?

Primary flaw -- all series must have a beginning as well as an end when there is no logical reason to think so.

Also, the old fallacy returns again: petitio principii -- the unfounded conclusion that "god caused the universe" is used to secure the validity of one of its unfounded premises -- that everything must have a "cause."

On a final note...the idea of a "first cause" can ONLY be applied to a world that our senses can experience -- instead, however, it is applied to a "being" that is supposed to transcend it. The "first cause" is intangible anyway -- how can it be tangible when a principle is utilized outside of its uses in the first place?

The Categorical Imperative

Proposed by Immanuel Kant, and now the Church uses his ideas to somehow attach "god" to it.

Kant's argument -- there exists a sense of "ought," a definite "morality" which is called the "categorical imperative."

The church calls this "categorical imperative" a manifestation of god.

Science calls it a bunch of fundamental laws of behavior and social interaction.

Not much more explanation is necessary.

Also, it would help to learn a bit on the natural origins of morality. Here are a few useful links:

Kropotkin's "Anarchist Morality" (http://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/kropotkin-peter/1897/morality.htm)

Adam Smith's "Theory of Moral Sentiments" (http://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/smith-adam/works/moral/index.htm)

The Ontological Argument

A fancy name for an argument "from perfection," that since "perfection" can be conceived, so can a "perfect being" be conceived -- and must exist.

This was already discussed.

Kalam Cosmological Argument

Developed by Muslims in the Kalam School after taking the idea from a Christian philosopher in the sixth century.

The first idea of the argument is that the universe has a beginning, a cause, etc. Already refuted.

The second idea of the argument is that "infinity" is merely a property of math and not the "real world," thus attempting to refute the aforementioned idea of "counting backwards" to infinity.

The question must be asked -- why is infinity impossible in the real world, anyway? There is no reason why it cannot be a property of reality; it, thus, goes back to being another illogical assumption. After all, isn't god part of the "real world" -- and infinite?!

Teleological Argument

Quite simply...the famous argument "from design."

One of the ideas behind it is that humans create items that resemble nature -- due to god (?!?!). What it fails to take into consideration is that humans, regardless of god, would make items that resemble nature.

This argument also suggests that the "cause" must be proportional to the "effect" (because humans, lesser than nature, create items that somewhat but not completely emulate nature) -- and since the "effect" is not infinite and can be perceived, the same can be said about the "cause" (since the cause must be proportional to the effect) -- thus the cause -- god!!! -- cannot be logically infinite.



Of course, there are many more.

If anyone has refutations based on logic and/or philosophy, please add them.

I'm tired of typing.

Discarded Wobbly Pop
8th January 2005, 19:32
Originally posted by Brooklyn-[email protected] 8 2005, 02:30 PM
First of all, before I continue, let me say that it is illogical for the atheists here to proclaim, "there is no god." Conversely, it would also be illogical to assume that "god exists."
When I'm arguing with religious people I am normally not trying nessecarily(used to spell better as a child :P obviously too much drugs) to win the argument.

I just take the simplest route. Ofcourse I don't have proof that "god" doesn't exist. However I can say fairly accurately, that the muslim, and christian idea of a god that gives a shit about what goes on earth, does not exist.

encephalon
18th January 2005, 01:01
An omniscient, omnipotent and omni-benevolent being is contradictory to horrors of reality, and an impossibility for such a beng to exist alongside suffering. This argument alone destroys the argument for the judeo-christian/muslim conception of God, though the "prime mover" anod nothing more theory of God has no such contradiction.

Xvall
18th January 2005, 18:57
Let's also not forget that the catholic encyclopedia defines god as "incomprehensible", among other things, which makes those 'other things' utterly meaningless.

Pedro Alonso Lopez
18th January 2005, 19:49
Let's assume anybody here gives a fuck whether God exists, if they do there are plenty of forums dealing with problems such as fancy notions as evil etc.

encephalon
18th January 2005, 22:44
Let's not assume that whether a God exists he gives a fuck whether we exist.

guerillablack
12th February 2005, 20:39
Originally posted by [email protected] 18 2005, 01:01 AM
An omniscient, omnipotent and omni-benevolent being is contradictory to horrors of reality, and an impossibility for such a beng to exist alongside suffering. This argument alone destroys the argument for the judeo-christian/muslim conception of God, though the "prime mover" anod nothing more theory of God has no such contradiction.
how does it? What's benevolent? What's love? What's hate? What's suffering? All concepts, human concepts nonetheless. How can you say that he is contradictory using your own defintions. The definitions or concepts always change and can change. Feel me?

Dyst
12th February 2005, 21:10
These aren't really arguments against the force of a God (not really good ones, anyways,) they are merely arguments against the possibility of a God in religious (such as christian, muslim, etc.) terms.

Anyways, I've found some:



Premise -- it is "necessary" for a being to exist that was never "caused" to "cause" the existence of the universe.
Not a being. A figure, a force. One.


The premise is simple -- since we can conceive of a "hottest," "longest," "best," or "perfect," there must be an "absolute" yardstick for this kind of measurement.
Not nessesceraly, but chances are, there is.


Also...there is another premise that leads to an illogic conclusion: since we can conceive of something "perfect" or "best," it has to exist. But is this true? I can, for example, conceive of the "most yellow Internet smiley face" -- but does it make it real? I can also conceive of the "tallest and most vicious rabbit named Harry" -- but is he now real, simply because I can imagine him, and use him as an "absolute" yardstick to compare all other "inferior" rabbits to?
He isn't "real". "He" is a law.


Self-explanatory; god designed the universe.
I wouldn't use the word God, and I wouldn't use the word designed. Think of the force as the number one. 1 generates all other, and before it was zero, nothing. If it exists in mathematics it certainly does in physicality as well.


let me just say this: life develops to adapt itself to the environment, not the other way around
As in...? Numbers!


Premise -- god is necessary to set "stuff" in motion.
That is correct. You need the number one to generate all preceding numbers.


The earlier event is a "cause," the following event is an "effect" -- we can trace these events back to infinity, going back, back, back, baaack. The same is true in terms of tracing it forwards. You can use the example of numbers; n+1, n-1, etc. can go back or forward to infinity. There is not necessarily a "beginning" -- and why should we assume that the universe "needs" a beginning and a cause in the first place? After all, scientists now know of particles that appear "out of thin air" -- seemingly, without a cause. Thus, the idea of "causation" is not a universal phenomenon.
I agree with this completely. Don't make the theory of God something it is not. God is the number One, the first number that generates all other.


The second idea of the argument is that "infinity" is merely a property of math and not the "real world," thus attempting to refute the aforementioned idea of "counting backwards" to infinity.

The question must be asked -- why is infinity impossible in the real world, anyway? There is no reason why it cannot be a property of reality; it, thus, goes back to being another illogical assumption. After all, isn't god part of the "real world" -- and infinite?!
First off, if something exists in math, it exists in reality, as well. Second off, infinity does exist in the real world, but this does not propose any argument against the theory of a first number... It only proves the fact that there is a zero before the one.


One of the ideas behind it is that humans create items that resemble nature -- due to god (?!?!). What it fails to take into consideration is that humans, regardless of god, would make items that resemble nature.

This argument also suggests that the "cause" must be proportional to the "effect" (because humans, lesser than nature, create items that somewhat but not completely emulate nature) -- and since the "effect" is not infinite and can be perceived, the same can be said about the "cause" (since the cause must be proportional to the effect) -- thus the cause -- god!!! -- cannot be logically infinite.
Meh. Humans create items that resemble reality, because we, as well as reality, are bounded by the universal laws of math. Whatever we create is a piece of mathemaitcal architecture. Think about it. Analyzation is what captures so many people's minds that it is almost extreme. For example, music is mathematical precision through sound and time (rythm = time, tones = sound.) It is obvious, yet so few realize it.

LSD
14th February 2005, 19:48
Not nessesceraly, but chances are, there is.

Why?

Based on what?

"Chances are" that that which we see is that which we see.

"Chances are" not that an invisible "force" is secretely "running the show"


I wouldn't use the word God, and I wouldn't use the word designed. Think of the force as the number one. 1 generates all other, and before it was zero, nothing. If it exists in mathematics it certainly does in physicality as well.

First off, if something exists in math, it exists in reality, as well.

You know what else exists in mathematics? Imaginary numbers.

You know why they're called "imaginary", because they don't exist.

There is no square root of -1 in "physicallity". In fact there is much of mathematics that exist solely in the theoretical. I don't know what your training in math is, but trust me when I say that there is no rule that everything in math have a concrete counterpart.


I agree with this completely. Don't make the theory of God something it is not. God is the number One, the first number that generates all other.

That is correct. You need the number one to generate all preceding numbers.

There is no "root" number in math.

Sure every integer is wholly divisible by one, but that seemingly important relationship is actually not.

Just like every number is divisible by 1, so are they all divisble by 3.49658483. Not all divisions will result in a whole number, but then neither will dividing, say, 480.22436 by your precious "number one"!

There are no "superior" numbers! :lol:

Sorry, if you want to prove god exists, you'll have to look outside of math. Differential Equations are strictly agnostic! :D


Not a being. A figure, a force. One.

I have no idea what that is supposed to mean.


He isn't "real". "He" is a law.

I really have no idea what that is supposed to mean! :blink:


These aren't really arguments against the force of a God (not really good ones, anyways,) they are merely arguments against the possibility of a God in religious (such as christian, muslim, etc.) terms.

No, they are attempts to counter attempts to prove the existence of God.

We don't have to prove a negative. The assumption is that there isn't an invisible "force" running the universe, you must prove to us that there is!

Just like if I were to claim that I am in fact your long lost father and that I originated from the planet Krypton and have come to take you home...

...you just might want proof.

Dyst
14th February 2005, 21:45
Originally posted by Lysergic Acid [email protected] 15 2005, 01:48 AM

Not nessesceraly, but chances are, there is.

Why?

Based on what?

"Chances are" that that which we see is that which we see.

"Chances are" not that an invisible "force" is secretely "running the show"


I wouldn't use the word God, and I wouldn't use the word designed. Think of the force as the number one. 1 generates all other, and before it was zero, nothing. If it exists in mathematics it certainly does in physicality as well.

First off, if something exists in math, it exists in reality, as well.

You know what else exists in mathematics? Imaginary numbers.

You know why they're called "imaginary", because they don't exist.

There is no square root of -1 in "physicallity". In fact there is much of mathematics that exist solely in the theoretical. I don't know what your training in math is, but trust me when I say that there is no rule that everything in math have a concrete counterpart.


I agree with this completely. Don't make the theory of God something it is not. God is the number One, the first number that generates all other.

That is correct. You need the number one to generate all preceding numbers.

There is no "root" number in math.

Sure every integer is wholly divisible by one, but that seemingly important relationship is actually not.

Just like every number is divisible by 1, so are they all divisble by 3.49658483. Not all divisions will result in a whole number, but then neither will dividing, say, 480.22436 by your precious "number one"!

There are no "superior" numbers! :lol:

Sorry, if you want to prove god exists, you'll have to look outside of math. Differential Equations are strictly agnostic! :D


Not a being. A figure, a force. One.

I have no idea what that is supposed to mean.


He isn't "real". "He" is a law.

I really have no idea what that is supposed to mean! :blink:


These aren't really arguments against the force of a God (not really good ones, anyways,) they are merely arguments against the possibility of a God in religious (such as christian, muslim, etc.) terms.

No, they are attempts to counter attempts to prove the existence of God.

We don't have to prove a negative. The assumption is that there isn't an invisible "force" running the universe, you must prove to us that there is!

Just like if I were to claim that I am in fact your long lost father and that I originated from the planet Krypton and have come to take you home...

...you just might want proof.
I have no "proof". I don't even care about you believing in "God" either. All I want people to realize is that numbers are not only descriptions of reality, it is closer than that.

And by numbers I don't mean math (as in the way we use it today.) By number I mean a philosophical idea. And that is an idea which is correct and everyone knows it! Numbers involve everything. All is number.

I am not sure about God, in the sence that I am not sure that if what I "believe in" can even be called God. I believe the numberic structure is all-embracing. Think, what goes beyond number? Anyways, I know that through philosophical numberic nature, there is a number which is just bigger than zero, one. I know that this number reflects upon all continued numbers.

And please don't correct my grammar, as long as you understand it. English is not my motherlanguage.

bolshevik butcher
14th February 2005, 21:51
i don't believe in god, but you can't actually disprove his/her/it's exisitnce, i don't believe in him/her/it on the basis that to prove something you need solid evidence for it.

LSD
14th February 2005, 21:59
I have no "proof". I don't even care about you believing in "God" either. All I want people to realize is that numbers are not only descriptions of reality, it is closer than that.

What?!?

What "numbers"? ...specifically.

What are they "describing"?


And by numbers I don't mean math (as in the way we use it today.)

Again, I ask which numbers?

If you "don't mean math" then what do you mean?

Outside of math, numbers don't exist! All that numbers are is math.


By number I mean a philosophical idea.

Numbers are not "philisophical"!

Socialism is a "philisophical idea"
250 is a number.

Where do those two overlap?


And that is an idea which is correct and everyone knows it! Numbers involve everything.

...if you say so.... :unsure:

..wait....no! Numbers are numbers, that is all. If you have some theory on numerology or some such superstitious bunk, explain it.

Saying that "everyone knows it" doesn't make you right, it just makes you delusional.


believe the numberic structure is all-embracing. Think, what goes beyond number? Anyways, I know that through philosophical numberic nature, there is a number which is just bigger than zero, one. I know that this number reflects upon all continued numbers.

All is number

:blink:

I rest my case.

ComradeChris
14th February 2005, 23:18
I'm sorry...I there's just no scientific evidence that something can come from nothing. I honestly think the universe behaves as an organism in itself...it's growing and there are gatherings of materials in certain areas...and those areas maintain a homeostasis. I just saw on Jeopardy too that there was a philosopher who believed something along those lines (I can't remember the name of the theory)...dammit..I hate my memory sometimes.

Dyst
15th February 2005, 10:52
There seem to be some misconception that numbers are not philosophical...? What do you mean? Do you know what philosophy is? What is the difference of the meaning of philosophy and number?


Mathematics is philosophical.

LSD
15th February 2005, 16:02
There seem to be some misconception that numbers are not philosophical...?

No.. you see that's a fact.


What do you mean?

What do I mean?!?

:blink:
"All is number"
"believe the numberic structure is all-embracing. Think, what goes beyond number? Anyways, I know that through philosophical numberic nature, there is a number which is just bigger than zero, one. I know that this number reflects upon all continued numbers."

I'm not the one with a number fetish.


Do you know what philosophy is?

Philosophy:
n. pl. phi·los·o·phies
1. Love and pursuit of wisdom by intellectual means and moral self-discipline.
2. Investigation of the nature, causes, or principles of reality, knowledge, or values, based on logical reasoning rather than empirical methods.
3. A system of thought based on or involving such inquiry: the philosophy of Hume.
4. The critical analysis of fundamental assumptions or beliefs.
5. The disciplines presented in university curriculums of science and the liberal arts, except medicine, law, and theology.
6. The discipline comprising logic, ethics, aesthetics, metaphysics, and epistemology.
7. A set of ideas or beliefs relating to a particular field or activity; an underlying theory: an original philosophy of advertising.
8. A system of values by which one lives: has an unusual philosophy of life.


What is the difference of the meaning of philosophy and number?

Number
Mathematics.
1. A member of the set of positive integers; one of a series of symbols of unique meaning in a fixed order that can be derived by counting.
2. A member of any of the further sets of mathematical objects, such as negative integers and real numbers.


Mathematics is philosophical.

No, it isn't.

Don't Change Your Name
18th February 2005, 02:26
Originally posted by [email protected] 12 2005, 09:10 PM
Not a being. A figure, a force. One.
What is "god" exactly? Why can't "1" be something unconscious? Such as "energy"?


I wouldn't use the word God, and I wouldn't use the word designed. Think of the force as the number one. 1 generates all other, and before it was zero, nothing. If it exists in mathematics it certainly does in physicality as well.

The thing is, how did "1" come into existance? There's not such a thing as "1". It's an abstract concept we came up with, such as "car": you have the wheels, the engine, etc., which are made up by different atoms and blah blah blah...but "car" is a term we use when such elements are organized on a specific way.

Commie Rat
29th March 2005, 02:28
imagine you are a phycologist -
a man comes to you and tells you he lives by a book of fariy tales written in acient times and it has ten rulse in it that if you live by thses you will end up in paradise but if you break one of these rulse even marginally you will burn in torment forever, he also sez that you must meditate and offer thanks to this ivisable absolute being who will punish you with immese wrath if you dont.

doesn't soud very logical to me

rice349
29th March 2005, 03:42
i base my atheism on empiricism--show me empirical data for the existance of a god and then i'll beleive in him. Otherwise believing in god is utterly retarded.

DISTURBEDrbl911
29th March 2005, 05:02
well, when i am ever faced with an arguement with a "christian" or "religious" person about the nature of a "god" i use certain philosophies into consideration
1. i ask for proof, hardcore scientific evidence from more than one good source that there is such a thing
2. i question their morality and make them contradict themselves with their morality
3. i also use large words, that their small minds cannot comprehend, it doesn't necesarily prove my point further but it at least gives me something to chuckle about
4. i use quotes from famous people and i also use their own quotes against them
well the list could go on and on, but from my point, i am not so much an atheist, for really there is no proof to win either case....however i consider myself to be agnostic...meaning that i do not know therefor i cannot say, however i am more of an atheistic agnostic becuase i need proof to show things exist, i do not just blindly accept and follow this bullshit

MKS
31st March 2005, 03:39
The great mystery of life is just that a mystery and no dogma or doctrine can explain it.

I dont think it is hypocritical to realize that there are somethings that can never be explained by science (yet).

After spending 1+ year in Catholic Seminary I have been schooled in the theology and idealogy of the Christian religion. After that time I can to become an ardent athiest, thanks to the corruption of the church the basic hypocrisy of the dogma of the church.

Religion is a human manifestation of faith created in order to control the masses. Faith is an organic condition caused by the consciousness of the human mind. ( We are the only animal that is aware of thier inevitable fate/death).

Let me ask this question though. Is there proof of a successful true communist society? no. But we believe there could be, and we dream and fight for one everyday. Religous FAITH is just another form of hope (based in fact or not it dosent matter to the faithful.) It is the practice and organization of that FAITH that causes oppression.