Siding in Ukraine

[Erin Go Braugh]

I believe with the west. Russia is too authoritarian now, but Ukraine could perhaps follow the example of European democracies, which I believe would be better. Or perhaps a communist government is best? Post your opinion here. Considering the west-supporter candidate lost, I believe violent action may be necessary to rid Ukraine of the new government.

[h&s]

Or perhaps a communist government is best?
No such thing as a communist government - I think you mean a socialist government, and yes of course that would be best.
Neither pro-Russian or pro-Western governments offer anything to the people. We only ever support pro-working class movements, run by the working class.
Other forms of government are run by the ruling class, whose only purpose is to opress the working class. We can, and will not choose the 'lesser of two evils.'


Considering the west-supporter candidate lost
Yushenko won.... :rolleyes:

[Saint-Just]

This was discussed in greater detail on E-G. We had an unknown member of Che-Lives/RL accuse certain members on E-G of contradicting themselves on this subject. This contradiction, according to the RL member, was a contradiction on the the matter of national-self determination. The member of RL said that whilst specific members of E-G held national self-determination to be of import supported a Yanukovich government in Ukraine. The RL member talked of Russian Imperialism and how the Ukraine will lose its independence under a Yanukovich government.

I would not advocate this view. Many people in Eastern Ukraine identify themselves through the Russian Federation and the union formerly known as the USSR. As a result, there is not way in which national-self determination can be brought into actuality for all peope of the Ukraine in the nation's present form. As such, I support the idea of a referendum in which the nation will be divided into two nations, one of which will form inevitably form ties with Russia and the other which will become a future state in the European Union.

[Erin Go Braugh]

My apoligies, he did win, but I don't believe it matters :-).
I also have to wonder about rule of the working class.
Doesn't that just replace dictators with different dictators? I believe democracy is the only government that makes all people satisfied. And I don't agree with you Chairman Mao. I hope Ukraine will remaine one seperate entity.

[h&s]

I also have to wonder about rule of the working class.
Doesn't that just replace dictators with different dictators?
You need to learn what communism actually is....
Working class rule is the most democratic form of rule possible, as everything that is decided is decided by the vast majority of the people. There is no such thing as a communist dictator.

[Erin Go Braugh]

No...you need to remember the process of getting to communism.
cough* dictatorship of the proletariot (spelling error probably)* cough
And shouldn't the working class have a say in this? A lot of workers dislike communists.

[refuse_resist]

Originally posted by Erin Go [email protected] 7 2005, 09:11 PM
I believe with the west. Russia is too authoritarian now, but Ukraine could perhaps follow the example of European democracies, which I believe would be better. Or perhaps a communist government is best? Post your opinion here. Considering the west-supporter candidate lost, I believe violent action may be necessary to rid Ukraine of the new government.
Yeah, joining NATO and the EU is very smart. :rolleyes:

[Red Heretic]

That is quite a generalization Erin, and completely irrelevant as it is not the case in the third world. As the third world is liberated the second world will change it's veiws. But to the point.

You are right in that the masses of people need to be able to take part in the decisions of the party so that we can achieve real communism, but we will never achieve our goal through bourgeois democracy. Just look at Germany. They controlled a large majority of seat position, and they couldn't carry out a revolution or do so much as ANYTHING to resist the fascists.

[h&s]

Originally posted by Erin Go [email protected] 11 2005, 08:11 PM
No...you need to remember the process of getting to communism.
cough* dictatorship of the proletariot (spelling error probably)* cough
And shouldn't the working class have a say in this? A lot of workers dislike communists.
Dictatorship of the proletariat is nothing to do with dictatorship of one party/person. It is a system in which the working class rule over the borgeoise. The only needs considered in this are the needs of the workers - they get any say they want in it.

[bolshevik butcher]

I prefer Yushenko, he seems to care about the Ukranaian people, and he was certainly the real winner anyway.

[bolshevik butcher]

Originally posted by refuse_resist+Jan 11 2005, 08:38 PM--> (refuse_resist @ Jan 11 2005, 08:38 PM)
Erin Go [email protected] 7 2005, 09:11 PM
I believe with the west. Russia is too authoritarian now, but Ukraine could perhaps follow the example of European democracies, which I believe would be better. Or perhaps a communist government is best? Post your opinion here. Considering the west-supporter candidate lost, I believe violent action may be necessary to rid Ukraine of the new government.
Yeah, joining NATO and the EU is very smart. :rolleyes: [/b]
The EU isn't paticularly right wing, NATO is, the second biggest block in the european parliment is socialist.

[h&s]

Originally posted by Clenched [email protected] 12 2005, 04:27 PM
The EU isn't paticularly right wing, NATO is
Err, yes it is. The EU is there to provide the best deals for capitalists within Europe. It is a bosses only club.


the second biggest block in the european parliment is socialist.
You mean socailists as in those who used to be reformists, but after the fall of 'communism' decided to take up neo-liberal policies? Like the Labour party in the UK and the Social Democrats in Germany.

[bolshevik butcher]

Originally posted by h&s+Jan 14 2005, 01:38 PM--> (h&s @ Jan 14 2005, 01:38 PM)
Clenched [email protected] 12 2005, 04:27 PM
The EU isn't paticularly right wing, NATO is
Err, yes it is. The EU is there to provide the best deals for capitalists within Europe. It is a bosses only club.


the second biggest block in the european parliment is socialist.
You mean socailists as in those who used to be reformists, but after the fall of 'communism' decided to take up neo-liberal policies? Like the Labour party in the UK and the Social Democrats in Germany. [/b]
No, as far as I know the labour party isn't part of the socialist group. Haven't you heard of the european social forum?

[h&s]

I just gave the Labour party as an example. The fact is that almost all reformist parties converted to neo-liberalism after the fall of the USSR. Anyway, reformists are obviously supporters of capitalism so we should not support them even if they are being serious.