FARC And The ELN

[Paradox]

So what are your opinions about the FARC and the ELN? I personally don't support the idea of kidnappings and the like. Do they actually participate in the drug trade directly? I heard that they only "tax" drug distributors who pass through areas under their control. I know that here in the u.$. they are protrayed as terrorists, but what do the local people there in Colombia think of them? Do they support these organizations?

[Anarchist Freedom]

Its been known that the FARC controls the columbian countryside and is closing in on the capital inch by inch. Thing is though the FARC is largely in the cocaine trade to fund there war on the columbian goverment(makes sense). Since they control the countryside mainly its not far off for them to control much of the cocaine that leaves columbia being the biggest cocaine producer in the world

[Guerrilla22]

I personally don't support the idea of kidnappings and the like.

Well, if you know a better way to come up with money, then I'd like to hear it. Remeber the Colombian military recieves millions annaully in money and military equipment from the US. That's the same reason for the involvement in the drug trade. What should they do, set up a lemonade stand?

I'm sick of all the moralist on this site ripping on FARC, for activities that they don't view as morally acceptable. Try putting yourself in their situation and then talk about morals.

[colombiano]

Paradox , Have you ever even been to Colombia? These guys are NOT to be admired nor looked up to.

[Hiero]

Isn't the ELN the right wing paramilitary.

[Conghaileach]

Originally posted by [email protected] 5 2005, 01:39 AM
Isn't the ELN the right wing paramilitary.
You're thinking of the AUC (the Colombian Self-Defence Forces). The ELN (National Liberation Army) is a left-wing army, smaller than FARC but from what I've heard further to the left. They are separate but have carried out a number of actions together and have co-written a number of statements.

It's hard to get reliable information about what's going on in Colombia, especially in FARC-controlled areas. While FARC itself is not a gang of narco-terrorists, I think they have come to the realisation that the livelihoods of many of the peasants in the liberated zones depend on the cocoa plant, and that situation will not change anytime soon.

[Zingu]

Isn't there an other left wing South American group called the MPC or something? I would like some information about them.

[Paradox]

Isn't the ELN the right wing paramilitary.

No. If I remember correctly, they're the 2nd largest rebel group in Colombia, next to FARC.

Here's a link to an interesting, albeit brief website dealing with the issue of the "drug" war (has a brief description of both the FARC and ELN):

http://www.plancolombia.org/


Paradox , Have you ever even been to Colombia? These guys are NOT to be admired nor looked up to.

No, that's why I'm asking. I wanted to know what you guys thought about these groups. I didn't know whether the people there support these groups, which you apparently think aren't worthy of support.


I'm sick of all the moralist on this site ripping on FARC, for activities that they don't view as morally acceptable.

So I take it that you support the FARC? What about the ELN, do you support them too? Who exactly do they kidnap? Whether you like it or not, people have morals. What I'm saying is that I don't think a rebel group could gain a lot of support if it participates in activities that the majority of people think are wrong. I mean kidnappings and other methods which most people disapprove of are how we plan to gain support, then I'm not sure that'll work. The EZLN has a great deal of support and sympathizers, and they don't participate in such activities. Why can't the FARC and ELN use similar methods? I don't know, perhaps you know of some links that would support your argument, or maybe you could suggest some books on the topic?

[colombiano]

Sorry Parodox I meant to ask that question to Guerilla22 . Who happens to have a Picture of a Farc Soldier. I do NOT stand behind the FARC and until you have witnessed the bloodshed and inhumanity caused by the war in my country you CANNOT give an honest opinion. My father in Law and wife had fallen victim to these thugs. The Farc , several years ago approached my fahter in law and demanded 25k US dollars cash . He explained that he is s simple man with very little and there is NO way he can give them 25 k. They made the assumption that because he owned a small phramacy that he had access to those type of funds. The offical told him get me the money by a specific date or else Your Daughter and wife are dead. They had to flee their home for their life like many Colombian families do. Actions like this is why the FARC or any other Marxist group will never take control of the government in Colombia. Sure under the current system they are an impoverished people but at least they know they can live without the threat of being executed by the current government. The FARC IS NOT what Che invisioned.

[chebol]

Conghaileach, it's COCA not COCOA. I hate to point it out again, but it's important, as they are entirely different species, and both possess lucrative markets. Cocoa is used to make chocolate- slightly different from the cocaine into which coca is processed. This can be (and has been) a source of confusion to people unfamiliar with the details.

While the FARC-EP are a bit 'stalinoid', they (and the movements associated with them) are the only real alternative at present in Colombia to the Narco-terror State of Uribe and the AUC. The ELN are largely ineffective, and have a heavy reliance on kidnapping for income and on the FARC-EP for a platform in national politics. The FARC-EP, have, if you like, a "mixed economy"

The EZLN may have a lot of 'supporters' etc, but they are not doing a whole lot atm. In fact, they're becoming totally ineffectual on a national scale. They don't participate in many kinds of important activity. I may disagree with the FARC-EP, but at least they've got the right idea, instead of degenerating into autonomism.
The FARC-EP has a strategy of the popular seizure of state power, rather than simply rotting away in the jungle and making calls to the government to "please make a space for democratic debate" while they are simultaneously shelling them. If the FARC-EP and ELN used (exclusively) similar methods to the EZLN, they'd be laughed out of town, closely followed by being driven out, along with the population, by the army.
As it is, they're combining calls for a ceasefire and talks, with the improvement of the infrastructure of their territory, the building and reinforcement of popular movements and the PCCC, and the education of their cadre, in preparation for a 'revolutionary victory'.

The consequences of this aside, this is a slightly more healthy outlook than that of the EZLN, despite the massacres and kidnapping that takes place in Colombia.

Sorry, having a bad day.

[colombiano]

You are correct Paradox! There support will continue to dwindle due to their harsh and often inhumane methods. Sadly enough though the more they loose control the more desperate they become and the atrocities increase. A downward spiral.

[colombiano]

Until you have seen it and lived it YOU WILL NEVER KNOW!

[chebol]

Sorry Colombiano, but the support for the FARC-EP appears to be increasing, if for no other reason than because the people cannot live under the current government without fear of death (the paramilitaries are still very much active), let alone the ongoing suffering enforced by the economic servitude that the government perpetuates.

I don't condone what happened to your family (if it was as you described it), but your tone "or any other Marxist group" also leads me to ask:
1. Are you a marxist?
2. Do you have proof/ can you be sure it was the FARC-EP (I am just asking for the sake of surety, not out of sympathy for the FARC-EP)? It may have been the AUC, or independent brigands- both of whom use this method as well.
3. Can you honestly say that people are better off under Uribe and the Colombian state, given the past century's conflict, and the main perpetrators (and initiators) of the violence- the right and the state? ie The FARC-EP didn't start it, and they make constant calls for it to stop.

Actually, one leader of the FARC-EP was just extradited to the US, and another has recently been captured (foreign relations), possibly in venezuela. An armed group massacred 17 people (including, it is claimed, women and children) in reprisal near the venezuelan border. The BBC is claiming this group was the FARC. So it is possible that when they face set-backs they over-react and commit atrocities, but their influence is still growing.

[Colombia]

Yet 87% of civilian deaths are caused by right wing paramilitaries.

More later.

[Colombia]

[/I]Alvaro Uribe and the right have always oppressed the people. It all started even before the death of Gaitan. However, the government has had some major chances to reconcile with the left and has decided only to use violence. In the 1980's the FARC actually had representatives in the government's congress. The right simply decided to intimidate and assasinate the reps so that they could accomplish nothing.

While kidnapping people for ransom is bad, you need to look at who they are kidnapping. From what I have seen and read they kidnap mainly those working in the oil industry for US exploiting Colombia's petroleum.

[Anarchist Freedom]

I dont fully support the FARC but I will the only thing that worries me is that they will become too erratic with power and may become too violent. I believe this because the FARC doesnt fuck around they kill alot of civilians and that is uncalled for.If im correct the FARC could control the goverment in columbia sooner then we thought. Due to the recent and gradual disarming of the AUC they walked into a soccer stadium and put all there guns down if I remember correctly. So with no opposition but the goverment It probably Is going to be alot easier to create a full revolution especially with venezuala to the north

[chebol]

Venezuela is to the east.

The AUC generally put their arms down in one room, then pick them up in the next, where they suddenly become the "irregular" forces of the Colombian army. This ought to give you a sense of how closely linked these institutions are.

And here's something interesting....

James Petras defends Colombia's guerrillas

Hard talk from US Professor James Petras, after Portuguese writer José Saramago recently stated: »In Colombia there are no guerrillas, they are simply armed gangs.« Petras responds in an open letter where he writes: »The guerrillas--the FARC and the ELN--are today, and always were guerrillas. They are armed because they have to be, because Colombia needs basic changes and the political system does not allow other means, including elections to be held without terror and intimidation.«

27.12.2004 [By James Petras*]

Nobel Laureate Suffers from a Bizarre Historical Amnesia

An Open Letter to Jose Saramago


Dear Jose Saramago,

In recent days, Colombia, (infamous for its government-sponsored death squads and peasant massacres) has become the favorite site from which some of the Western World's best known intellectuals have dictated moral lectures condemning the Cuban Revolution (Susan Sontag) and the Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia (don Jose Saramago).

Let me state from the beginning that I have no objection to your promoting your latest book anywhere in the world, but not if it involves scoring merit points with a regime which is responsible for thousands of deaths and 2 million displaced peasants. As a self-proclaimed man of the left, you are well read and conversant with the politics of the world, particularly with Latin America where you have frequently visited, lectured, published and spoken with numerous journalists, intellectuals, political notables and other 'makers of opinion'.

When you speak, interpret and judge politicians, political groups and countries, you do so on the basis of your selection of the facts and opinions which coincide with your values and interests. You do not speak from ignorance but from an ideological perspective, from which you make your judgments.

During your visit to Colombia you dismissed the two guerrilla groups, the FARC and the ELN: "In Colombia there are no guerrillas, they are simply armed gangs." You went on to claim that they are not true communists because, "they dedicate themselves to kidnapping, murdering, violating human rights." You generously allow that "perhaps in the beginning they were (communists) but not now." You then allow that guerrilla struggle is only justified when "a country is occupied by a foreign invader and the people must organize to resist."

Saramago, as you well know, there are many conditions under which people rise to overthrow their oppressors: military dictators, murderous civilian regimes, landlords and their death squads, etc.

You surely remember the armed resistance against Franco, the successful overthrow of the Portuguese dictatorship in 1974, as well as the popular guerrilla resistance in Central America to the tyrannical 'civilian regimes' in Nicaragua, El Salvador and Guatemala.

Or do you think that the guerrillas of Zapata, Farabundo Marti and Fidel Castro were leading "armed gangs" because they failed to follow your precepts of voting "en blanco"? They did not rebel against a foreign invader (though foreign capital, military advisers and sophisticated arms were in abundance).

I am afraid that your political criteria would deny the great emancipatory figures and events of the 20th centuries. These revolutionary referents will continue to inform millions of people struggling against tyrants long after your interviews and opinions have been tossed into history's dustbin.

But let us for a moment set aside your bizarre historical amnesia. Let's discuss the guerrillas in Colombia, in particular, the FARC. The FARC was formed by 46 peasant activists in 1964, who, after numerous efforts to construct peaceful productive communities, suffered persecution and witnessed the military destroy their crops, homes, animals, while murdering their families, friends and neighbors. All under an elected civilian regime, oligarchical and repressive to be sure, under a Colombian command advised by US Special Forces.

Should they have poured ashes on their heads, hidden in the bush and waited till the next elections to cast a blank vote?. Would you guarantee their lives as they walked from the voting registry? Yes, you do grant, in the beginning; the FARC might have been communists but later no?

Twenty years later the FARC negotiated a peace agreement with then President Betancourt, so that many of its militants and some of its leaders could form an electoral party, The Patriotic Union, and compete in the presidential and congressional elections. Between 1984-1989 over 5,000 members and electoral activists were murdered by the Colombian military, police and death squads, including two popular presidential candidates. The FARC returned to armed struggle.

Is that the point in which they ceased to be communists? Should they then turn to casting 'blank votes'? Where--from exile? From Lisbon? It is clear, is it not, that the guerrillas returned to armed activities because there was no other way to survive and continue the struggle for what you call an "effective democracy" and against the "economic plutocrats" who you verbally condemn.

In 1999-2001, the FARC once again agreed to suspend the armed guerrilla struggle and pursue negotiations with the Pastrana regime. They insisted on a demilitarized zone--free of paramilitary and military troops. They put forth a political program of agrarian reform, national public control of strategic resources, and massive public works programs to generate jobs.

This program was put on the table and became the basis for negotiating a peace and justice agreement. You surely remember those days, only a decade or so past and only 8 years before you were honored with the Nobel Prize.

You surely remember that the FARC established a series of public forums and work-shops and invited academics, trade unionists, farmers and business people to present papers and proposals. You surely recall those reforms, especially the proposal to de-militarize the country, on both sides. Dr. Saramago, you as a worldly wise writer, do know that "armed bands" do not convoke forums, and listen and accept proposals from a plurality of sources on making Colombia an effective democracy.

With the backing of the US government the Pastrana regime abruptly broke off negotiations and launched an attack on the demilitarized zone. Should the guerrillas and their peasant supporters have responded by preparing to cast "blank votes"? Would they have survived? Was that the point at which, in your opinion, the guerrillas turned into "armed bands, kidnappers and assassins"?

I am serious, Saramago. I want you to give me your answer because the FARC's proposal for agrarian reform and de-militarization has the backing of millions of peasants, dispossessed and tortured by the Colombian government which you refused to name, which you obliquely referred to as the "situation in Colombia".

Why such discretion when speaking of a government like the present terrorist President Uribe, who has launched a scorched earth policy throughout the countryside?. Jose, why the silence about Uribe?

Why not condemn the vast US presence in Colombia -- billion dollars in aid, 800 military advisers, a dozen military bases and several thousand mercenaries paid for by the Pentagon? Doesn't that count as a "foreign invasion"? Or do you need billion dollars and five divisions of Marines to call it a US military occupation in order to consider the FARC and the ELN authentic guerrilla movements and not "armed gangs" of marauders and assassins.?

I am not sorry in writing to you in this direct and forward manner it is not only my style but because of the enormous political damage you have done. The terms you have used to slander the guerrillas echo the rhetoric of the Pentagon, Uribe and the rest of the Colombian oligarchy.

But your political language disqualifying the guerrillas in Colombia is used throughout Latin America by the ruling classes against popular movements. In Brazil, Paraguay and Bolivia, the landlords describe the peasant and landless workers movements as "vagabonds", criminals and "armed gangs". Who has the original claim on the term, you or the landlords?

I will finish by telling you what I think.

The guerrillas--the FARC and the ELN--are today, and always were guerrillas. They are armed because they have to be, because Colombia needs basic changes and the political system does not allow other means, including elections to be held without terror and intimidation.

You have a right to your opinion, but the circumstances, the context and substance of your remarks can only be seen as strengthening the terrorist leaders and military forces in Colombia.

You claim to be communist--but there are many types of "communists" today: Those who stole the public patrimony of Russia and became notable oligarchs; Those who collaborate with the US colonial regime in Iraq; Those who have struggled for forty years in the factories, jungles and countryside of Colombia for a society without classes; And those "communists" who fear the problem (imperialism) and fear the solution (popular revolution) and make it all a question of personal preferences.

Ideas, as you know, have consequences and especially you, Dr Saramago, your words are followed by millions of your literary devotees. Think before you speak of "armed gangs" because you are justifying the murder of scores of thousands of Colombians who have chosen to take the most difficult and dangerous road toward the emancipation of their country.

In the recent past we have shared opinions and positions. But from here onward we tread our different paths. I have lost my confidence and my hopes in you. You have defrauded my trust. You go your way and I will go my way.

Without sorrow or regrets,

James Petras

*James Petras (photo), a former Professor of Sociology at Binghamton University, New York, owns a 50 year membership in the class struggle, is an adviser to the landless and jobless in brazil and argentina and is co-author of Globalization Unmasked (Zed).

[Anarchist Freedom]

My bad to the EAST!

[Guerrilla22]

The EZLN has a great deal of support and sympathizers, and they don't participate in such activities. Why can't the FARC and ELN use similar methods? I don't know, perhaps you know of some links that would support your argument, or maybe you could suggest some books on the topic?

You can't compare the EZLN to FARC, it's like comparing apples and oranges. The EZLN is not a revolutionary group, it's more or less a resistance group, an activist group. They are not trying to overthrow the Mexican government, they are simply trying to ensure they maintain some right to self determination. If you are trying to overthrow the government you need to use military force. True, the EZLN has some arms, but they don't have nearly enought to wage a war.

For info on para military groups I always use the Federation of American Scientist para states site.


The FARC IS NOT what Che invisioned.

I seem to rember Che insisting that M-26 members rob banks in order secure funds, this idea was refuded by the much more liberal M-26 directoriate, which thought robbing banks was morrally wrong.

Che also advocated using tatics that would be deemed to be terrorist activities like when they blew up a train, he also personally executed men.

[Colombia]

Originally posted by Anarchist [email protected] 5 2005, 10:03 PM
So with no opposition but the goverment It probably Is going to be alot easier to create a full revolution especially with venezuala to the north
With the millions the USA provides to the Colombian government do you actually beleive it is possible?

[Conghaileach]

Originally posted by [email protected] 5 2005, 04:36 AM
Conghaileach, it's COCA not COCOA. I hate to point it out again, but it's important, as they are entirely different species, and both possess lucrative markets. Cocoa is used to make chocolate- slightly different from the cocaine into which coca is processed. This can be (and has been) a source of confusion to people unfamiliar with the details.
Apologies, comrade. Bloody typos.

[Anarchist Freedom]

colombia I believe its completely possible I mean think about it. There still going hardcore against the current goverment. Dont you think that there is a good possibility for them to win. Sadly it wont happen if the US has anything to say about it.

[Colombia]

Originally posted by Anarchist [email protected] 6 2005, 06:47 PM
colombia I believe its completely possible I mean think about it. There still going hardcore against the current goverment. Dont you think that there is a good possibility for them to win. Sadly it wont happen if the US has anything to say about it.
Allegedly intended to fight the production of coca and cocaine in Colombia, the $2 billion-U.S. "Plan Colombia" assistance package (currently renamed "Andean Initiative") has 80% of its aid going to the Colombian police and military for weapons, training and helicopters. While this policy meant huge contracts for U.S. defense contractors paid for by U.S. tax-payers, it translated into abruptly stopping a peace and dialogue process between then Colombian President Andres Pastrana and the leftist rebel groups, stepping up the war in the country's 50-year civil struggle. Recently elected Colombian President Alvaro Uribe has actually intensified the fighting against the two main rebel groups, the FARC (Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia) and the ELN (Army of National Liberation) with newly delivered U.S. weapons and helicopters.


Colombia is now sinking into a hellish spiral of violence with more bombings and kidnappings, more disappearances and murders of opposition figures and union leaders and intensified warfare by the Colombian military. Plan Colombia is helping to combat the leftist guerilla-movements, not the narco-traffickers.

While the U.S. Congress had demanded that U.S. military assistance be used only to fight drug-trafficking and not to meddle in the Colombian civil war, the U.S. State Department has found a way to sidestep this issue by officially announcing a shift in priority from fighting drugs to fighting so-called "terrorism". This makes it easier to target the actions of irregular armed groups in Colombia with a focus on leftist groups controlling territories rich in natural resources, oil in particular.

[Anarchist Freedom]

There chances of winning A revolution with the US against them is slim to none if you ask me.....

[Erin Go Braugh]

Nothing wrong with being involved in the drug trade. All victimless crimes should be legalized (drugs, prostitution, etc.)

[Colombia]

Originally posted by Erin Go [email protected] 7 2005, 10:49 PM
Nothing wrong with being involved in the drug trade. All victimless crimes should be legalized (drugs, prostitution, etc.)
Ever heard of a mule?

[Hate Is Art]

Nothing wrong with being involved in the drug trade. All victimless crimes should be legalized (drugs, prostitution, etc.)

The drug trade isn't a victimless crime? Have you ever seen a junkie or a crack head? Maybe a courier boy? Or how about the people who profit from the drug trade?

[S.J.]

I am in total agreeance with colomiano that the FARC is noting but a gruop of thugs. Unfortunately the actions of my government have given rise to groups such as these