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RevolverNo9
2nd January 2005, 17:02
I have started studying Sartre, most recently having read his 'Existentialism and Humanism' lecture, with accompanying debate.

Sartre once stated that Marxism was 'the only philosophy for the twentieth century,' which I think sets up the scene nicely to ask people how the utter free-will of man provided by the subjectivity in which the mind inhabits in existentialist theory can be reconciled with the objective action-reaction of dialectical materialism? It seems incongruous. Thoughts?

RAT
3rd January 2005, 09:43
If I may suggest, Sartre may have viewed the concept of unity behind Marxism, where all are equals, and therefore concluded as such. According to Sartre, in Existentialism and Human Emotions, one should view each of one's decisions as if everyone else was doing as one does. This philisophy is similar to Kant's ethic in regard to universality, however it differs in regard to duty. Kant viewed the concept of fulfillment as a moral duty, while Sartre viewed man fulfillment as the expression of the will; "Man is nothing else , but what he will himself to be".
In that respect it follows the Marxist socialist ideology:
According to Marx, there are no distinction of classes among the people of the state. All are laborers.
According to sartre, all men have a will. And it is with that will that each one forge oneself. All are laborers creating themselves.

Trissy
3rd January 2005, 15:56
Sartre once stated that Marxism was 'the only philosophy for the twentieth century,' which I think sets up the scene nicely to ask people how the utter free-will of man provided by the subjectivity in which the mind inhabits in existentialist theory can be reconciled with the objective action-reaction of dialectical materialism? It seems incongruous
Indeed it does. Marxism and Existentialism are key philosophical influences in my life and I have often puzzled over this problem. I have come to the conclusion that the two are indeed incongruous. The reasons for this are quite evident in the metaphyical views held by the two thinkers...

In Marx we have a Materialist and a Determinist. There is no such thing as freedom, or if there is then it is nothing more then an illusion. We are determined by our economic circumstances and the society we live in. This is culminates in Dialectical Materialism which leads Marx to the conclusion that Capitalism will necessarily lead to a revolution that will bring about a Communist society. There is no choice about it and it is pointless to try to bring it about any quicker or to try and prevent it. It will happen and it will happen in its own time. No sooner....no later...the economical circumstances alone will decide it, and we have no control over such things (hence determinism).

Sartre's Existentialism on the other hand revolves around Libertarianism and the total freedom of the will. It also involves Dualism (not strictly the Cartesian variety) because Sartre wanted to maintain that the will is free but that the material world is determined (by physical laws). To do this he needed to employ the idea of an immaterial Consciousness. It is this Consciousness that seperates 'Being-in-Itself' from 'Being-for-Itself' as Sartre wrote in Being and Nothingness, and with these ideas also comes the idea of Bad Faith.

Although Sartre believed that Existentialism was a subordinate branch of Marxism, it is my firm belief that he was mistaken here. The Economical Determinism that is central to Marxism and Dialectical Materialism cannot be reconciled with the Libertarianism found in Sartre's Existentialism which he expounded in his works (such as Existentialism and Humanism). If we are determined by economical circumstances then our essence exists before we do, and this is the opposite of Sartre's belief that existence proceeds essence.

It is my humble opinion that modern Marxism needs to reassess itself in light of the durability of Capitalism and attempt to combine itself with the principles Existentialism. Change will only become a realistic prospect when the working classes realise the role they must play and the choices they need to make. Dialectical Materialism merely encourages the decadence and lack of action we find within modern Capitilist societies. This is something I hope to write about myself some day if I ever have the good fortune to become a Philosophy lecturer.

RevolverNo9
4th January 2005, 18:06
How did Sartre personally reason a reconciliation?

The Garbage Disposal Unit
4th January 2005, 18:51
It depends on one's conception of freedom.
The literal, material existence of "choice", and the social question of freedom, are, in my mind, different. While the action of physical forces may determine the actions of mind-brain and direct the will, the question of freedom ought to concern the manifestation of that will, and the ability to act upon ones desires. So, while objective factors might generate my preference of ginger-ale relates to freedom.

Of course, this represents a fundamental disagreement with Sartre, but I've found it strangely easy to come to 90% agreement with Camus . . .




(For the record, I don't think an authentic materialsm, and "materialist" dialectic are reconcilable.)

Trissy
6th January 2005, 00:10
How did Sartre personally reason a reconciliation?
Well my knowledge of Sartre is still very mixed because just like with Kierkegaard, when I think I know what I'm talking about I suddenly realise that I'm more confused then when I started off. However this is my personal understanding of how Sartre arrived at what he saw as a reconciliation...

Economical determinism like many other branches of determinism affects only the material world. Our consciousness is immaterial and is not determined by these forces but only influenced by them. So the poverty only determines us materially (e.g. we feel hungry and tired) and does not determine our actions. We may act upon things such as hunger but these are only influences on our choices and they never necessarily make us act in a certain way. We are still free in the choices we make, and so any revolution must be the result of freely taken choices (i.e. it is not necessarily inevitable).

I think Sartre did not see denial of materialism and strict determinism as being that problematic with his political beliefs but I personally think it requires stating more strongly in modern Marxism.

I hope to eventually purchase 'Critique of Dialectical Reason' so that I can gain a better understanding of Sartre but before that I need to gain a better understanding of 'Being and Nothingness' and many of his other works that I possess.

Daymare17
6th January 2005, 14:59
Originally posted by [email protected] 3 2005, 03:56 PM

Sartre once stated that Marxism was 'the only philosophy for the twentieth century,' which I think sets up the scene nicely to ask people how the utter free-will of man provided by the subjectivity in which the mind inhabits in existentialist theory can be reconciled with the objective action-reaction of dialectical materialism? It seems incongruous
Indeed it does. Marxism and Existentialism are key philosophical influences in my life and I have often puzzled over this problem. I have come to the conclusion that the two are indeed incongruous. The reasons for this are quite evident in the metaphyical views held by the two thinkers...

In Marx we have a Materialist and a Determinist. There is no such thing as freedom, or if there is then it is nothing more then an illusion. We are determined by our economic circumstances and the society we live in. This is culminates in Dialectical Materialism which leads Marx to the conclusion that Capitalism will necessarily lead to a revolution that will bring about a Communist society. There is no choice about it and it is pointless to try to bring it about any quicker or to try and prevent it. It will happen and it will happen in its own time. No sooner....no later...the economical circumstances alone will decide it, and we have no control over such things (hence determinism).

Sartre's Existentialism on the other hand revolves around Libertarianism and the total freedom of the will. It also involves Dualism (not strictly the Cartesian variety) because Sartre wanted to maintain that the will is free but that the material world is determined (by physical laws). To do this he needed to employ the idea of an immaterial Consciousness. It is this Consciousness that seperates 'Being-in-Itself' from 'Being-for-Itself' as Sartre wrote in Being and Nothingness, and with these ideas also comes the idea of Bad Faith.

Although Sartre believed that Existentialism was a subordinate branch of Marxism, it is my firm belief that he was mistaken here. The Economical Determinism that is central to Marxism and Dialectical Materialism cannot be reconciled with the Libertarianism found in Sartre's Existentialism which he expounded in his works (such as Existentialism and Humanism). If we are determined by economical circumstances then our essence exists before we do, and this is the opposite of Sartre's belief that existence proceeds essence.

It is my humble opinion that modern Marxism needs to reassess itself in light of the durability of Capitalism and attempt to combine itself with the principles Existentialism. Change will only become a realistic prospect when the working classes realise the role they must play and the choices they need to make. Dialectical Materialism merely encourages the decadence and lack of action we find within modern Capitilist societies. This is something I hope to write about myself some day if I ever have the good fortune to become a Philosophy lecturer.
You present Marx as an economic determinist, i.e. someone who denies free will arguing that all our actions are predetermined from economical laws. This distortion of Marxism is dealt with as early as the first chapter of Marx' essential work, the Eighteenth Brumaire of Louis Bonaparte:

"Men make their own history, but they do not make it as they please; they do not make it under self-selected circumstances, but under circumstances existing already, given and transmitted from the past." (my emphasis)

If there should be any doubt, here's another quote, from Engels this time:

"According to the materialist conception of history, the ultimately determining element in history is the production and reproduction of real life. More than this neither Marx nor I have ever asserted. Hence, if someone twists this into saying that the economic element is the only determining one, he transforms that position into a meaningless, abstract, senseless phrase. The economic situation is the basis, but the various elements of the superstructure—political forms of the class struggle and its results, to wit: constitutions established by victorious classes after a successful battle, etc., judicial forms, and the reflexes of all these actual struggles in the brains of the participants, political, juristic, philosophical theories, religious views and their further development into systems of dogmas also exercise their influence upon the course of the historical struggles, and in many cases predominate in determining their form."

Despite all this, the "economic determinist" distortion is a permanent feature of bourgeois "critiques" of Marxism. It's a strawman. Lose it.

Marx and Engels' philosophy as expressed above is also a good antidote against Sartre's silly anarchist voluntarism. Please try to take real Marxism into account when you next formulate arguments against Marxism and in favor of voluntarism.

Daymare17
6th January 2005, 15:10
Besides, you seem to have an extremely peculiar idea of what dialectical materialism is. Although I'm not at all sure what you think it is, you're quite wrong. Care to define dialectical materialism?

Trissy
7th January 2005, 00:10
Well I remember you stating on a previous occasion that I did not understand the ideas in question but I welcome the opportunity to defend myself again and to try and prove you wrong...


You present Marx as an economic determinist, i.e. someone who denies free will arguing that all our actions are predetermined from economical laws. This distortion of Marxism is dealt with as early as the first chapter of Marx' essential work, the Eighteenth Brumaire of Louis Bonaparte:

Well I don't particularly agree to economic determinism being the idea that people are necessarily determined by what are simply called 'economic laws'. I prefer the idea of economic conditions being the determining factor in economic determinism. In this sense Economic determinism includes what you may consider Sociological determinism, Historical determinism, Psychological determinism and many other varieties of determinism. It does deny freewill and states that our actions are the product of the society we grow up in and this includes the class we belong to, the education we receive, the history of that society, and many other factors. To state that there are economic laws that we can know would be making too bold an assertion but I believe that my usage of the 'economic determinism' is sound in the way I have applied it to Marxism. It incorporates many other branches of determinism and does deny freewill.

If you'll allow me to put my own emphasis on your quotations then I shall do so...


"Men make their own history, but they do not make it as they please; they do not make it under self-selected circumstances, but under circumstances existing already, given and transmitted from the past."

Our essence is predefined by the society we are raised in and the history of that society. Just as Marx could not have written his works during reign of the Roman Empire, nor could I have written what I am currently writing during Marx's time. The history of the era, the selective education that the ruling class allow people to receive, the people I am surrounded by, the current affairs that I am confronted with, the wages that my parents make and numerous other factors effect the way I act. What this means is that if I were transported to another time and placed in different economic conditions then I would not act in the same way. I could not act in the same way. It would be an impossibility since freewill does not exist.

Men may make their own history but they do not do so freely. They make it in light of where they came from and the conditions they were exposed to. The past and the present determine the future and so the freewill of man is no more then an illusion. This is contrary to the Existentialist belief that existence proceeds essence. This is why I do not agree to all the ideas in the philosophy of Marxism.


"According to the materialist conception of history, the ultimately determining element in history is the production and reproduction of real life. More than this neither Marx nor I have ever asserted. Hence, if someone twists this into saying that the economic element is the only determining one, he transforms that position into a meaningless, abstract, senseless phrase. The economic situation is the basis, but the various elements of the superstructure—political forms of the class struggle and its results, to wit: constitutions established by victorious classes after a successful battle, etc., judicial forms, and the reflexes of all these actual struggles in the brains of the participants, political, juristic, philosophical theories, religious views and their further development into systems of dogmas also exercise their influence upon the course of the historical struggles, and in many cases predominate in determining their form ."


From this passage I can see nothing more then what I have already understood by Economic determinism and I have just stated. It is my belief that in this passage is merely trying to clarify that it is not just how much wealth people may own at a particular moment in time that determines how they act but rather the culmination of many factors that make up the economy of a particular time. These include education, religion, history, language, philosophy, etc. These are what I believe I rightly classify under the term 'economic conditions'.


Despite all this, the "economic determinist" distortion is a permanent feature of bourgeois "critiques" of Marxism. It's a strawman. Lose it.

It is not a distortion. I believe that Determinism of the sort I have described cannot coincide with freewill. Plus I severely doubt that what I am personally expressing is a bourgeois critique of Marxism because I would enjoy nothing more then the collapse of Capitalist society. I do not come from prosperous conditions and do not desire to stab people in the back to get them. It does not however mean that I must agree with all of Marx wrote because I do not agree with blindly accepting dogma whether it be religious, political or philosophical. Marx wrote it and he wrote it to provoke thought, to influence people, to be questioned and ultimately to evolve. I'm sure he did not have a high enough opinion of himself to believe that all he ever wrote was 100% correct...


Marx and Engels' philosophy as expressed above is also a good antidote against Sartre's silly anarchist voluntarism. Please try to take real Marxism into account when you next formulate arguments against Marxism and in favor of voluntarism
Yes your brief two quotations have *shattered* my views about the philosophy of Sartre despite the fact you have not asked one question about Sartre&#39;s philosophy and merely stated that it is &#39;silly anarchist voluntarism&#39; <_< . I believe I constructed at least a brief analysis of both of the philosophies in question which is more then you have done. It is not like I have formulated my views instantaneously and with no thought, and you would do well to give me at least a tiny amount of credit. I&#39;ll gladly discuss all the philosophical issues at stake in both the philosophies of Marx and Sartre. I&#39;ll even state the what I believe to be the views of a few others if it will make you happy&#33;&#33;&#33;


Besides, you seem to have an extremely peculiar idea of what dialectical materialism is. Although I&#39;m not at all sure what you think it is, you&#39;re quite wrong. Care to define dialectical materialism?
If you&#39;re not sure of what I believe it to be then how can you be sure that my understanding is quite wrong? That strikes me as unreasonably assertive on your part. I can certainly attempt to define dialectical materialism so please take a seat...

Dialectical materialism is the inversion of Hegel&#39;s Dialectical Idealism. For Hegel our understanding of reality is dependant upon our understanding of ideas. Our understanding of ideas progresses through the synthesis of ideas and their antithesis. As a result of our progressing understanding of ideas we develop progressively different interpretations of reality which Hegel summed up famously by stating &#39;what is rational is real, and what is real is rational&#39;. For Hegel Dialectical Idealism would eventually arrive at &#39;The Absolute&#39; which was as close to God as we could get and then the society we live in could develop no more.

Marx saw Hegel&#39;s system as viewing things from the wrong perspective. For Marx it is not our understanding of ideas that influences our understanding of reality, but rather our material reality that influenced our understanding of ideas. The economic conditions (see above) we live in influence how we think and act, and through the class antagonism (where two classes with different economic conditions oppose one another) history and society progress. Eventually this Dialectic means that there will be extremely few people who have vast amounts of wealth and trillions of people who have nothing, and at this stage a revolution will necessarily take place in which the proletariat will take control. Eventually a Communist society will be established and this is the equivalent of Hegel&#39;s &#39;the Absolute’. From here on no development will take place because no development can take place.

This is my understanding of Dialectical Materialism, and it is this that I have a few problems with. I have raised this in a previous thread in theory and there was a pleasant level of debate. Now please enlighten me to all the mistakes I have made so that I may be freed from my ignorance...