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commiecrusader
31st December 2004, 16:14
Bet the Cappies aint thought of this. How can you justify the way that in a capitalist world, the relatively poor countries of Asia such as Thailand couldn't afford equipment to monitor the progress of potentially dangerous tidal waves as they moved accross the sea? We have them in the Pacific Ocean even though there are hardly any earthquakes in it. In a Communist Society the equipment would have been shared and spread out much better, and would have saved many lives. Furthermore, the infrastructure of these areas would be more comparable to ours since resources would be spread more effectively, leading to a faster recovery and emergency services better able to cope with the disaster for the same reasons. They wouldn't have to wait several days before support arrived from other countries, and the support wouldn't be as badly needed.

Another symptom of capitalist society is that the U.$. government send a paltry £18m in aid despite being such a large economy, whereas the UK government is sending £50m. Which of these countries is currently the more Imperialist, right-wing and money oriented?

bur372
31st December 2004, 16:29
. How can you justify the way that in a capitalist world, the relatively poor countries of Asia such as Thailand couldn't afford equipment to monitor the progress of potentially dangerous tidal waves as they moved accross the sea?

They probably could of ( it would be about 2 million dollars) or at least india could of but no they spent it on luxurys in a capatalist country remeber in a capatalist country money is more important than human health, education, social welfare and life.

The british goverment gave £50 million the people of britian probably gave about the same.

Karl Marx's Camel
31st December 2004, 16:37
In a Communist Society the equipment would have been shared and spread out much better

How do you know?

In a communist society, people just take.

commiecrusader
31st December 2004, 16:38
At 9 o'clock this morning the people of Britain had given £32m. Dunno what it is now. I've given a days wages, although thats only just over £40... I can't afford to spare much more though. I might be able to soon though if my trip round Europe is cancelled.

commiecrusader
31st December 2004, 16:41
Originally posted by [email protected] 31 2004, 05:37 PM

In a Communist Society the equipment would have been shared and spread out much better

How do you know?

In a communist society, people just take.
In a Communist society, resources are spread equally according to need. Clearly, in an earthquake zone such as Asia and India etc, tidal monitoring equipment is needed more than in the Atlantic. (is it the Atlantic or Pacific between Europe and the U.$?)

Karl Marx's Camel
31st December 2004, 16:50
In a Communist society, resources are spread equally according to need.

In a communist society, people take what they want.


Who is going to stop unequal distribution of goods?

commiecrusader
31st December 2004, 16:58
I think people would cotton on fairly quickly if some money grubbin cappie like you was taking everything. Anyway this is completely irrelevant to the reason I started this thread really.

Sabocat
31st December 2004, 17:05
In a communist society, people take what they want.


:lol:

It sounds like someone doesn't have a firm grasp on what Communism is.

NovelGentry
31st December 2004, 17:09
In a communist society, people take what they want.


Who is going to stop unequal distribution of goods?

You have a very strange way of seeing communism. For starters you're not realizing a difference between distribution and consumption. Just because you can consume a certain product does not mean that product is available. Secondly, this goes back to the scarcity argument, which is just crap. There's no reason to assume that technological advancments wouldn't have made the technology widely available EVERYWHERE it was necessary.

commiecrusader
31st December 2004, 17:11
Eeeeexactly. Novel Gentry that is a kingly destruction of 'Gifted's argument. 'Gifted' seems to think Communism is like going into a sweet shop when everything is free.

Karl Marx's Camel
31st December 2004, 18:12
There's no reason to assume that technological advancments wouldn't have made the technology widely available EVERYWHERE it was necessary.

If people are isolated in communes, and certain rare resources are found in a few communes, what would be the incentive to share these natural resources with other areas/continents/communes? Trade?

NovelGentry
31st December 2004, 18:18
If people are isolated in communes, and certain rare resources are found in a few communes, what would be the incentive to share these natural resources with other areas/continents/communes? Trade?

People are not isolated in communes. What gave you that idea? Communes are not self-sufficient, they are dependent on one another. Strangely enough, why do you assume the incentive has to account for selfishness? Maybe the incentive to work for society is very simply the enjoyment one gets from being socially respected as a productive member of that society.

ahhh_money_is_comfort
31st December 2004, 18:58
Originally posted by [email protected] 31 2004, 04:14 PM
Bet the Cappies aint thought of this. How can you justify the way that in a capitalist world, the relatively poor countries of Asia such as Thailand couldn't afford equipment to monitor the progress of potentially dangerous tidal waves as they moved accross the sea? We have them in the Pacific Ocean even though there are hardly any earthquakes in it. In a Communist Society the equipment would have been shared and spread out much better, and would have saved many lives. Furthermore, the infrastructure of these areas would be more comparable to ours since resources would be spread more effectively, leading to a faster recovery and emergency services better able to cope with the disaster for the same reasons. They wouldn't have to wait several days before support arrived from other countries, and the support wouldn't be as badly needed.

Another symptom of capitalist society is that the U.$. government send a paltry £18m in aid despite being such a large economy, whereas the UK government is sending £50m. Which of these countries is currently the more Imperialist, right-wing and money oriented?
One question. What are YOU doing about it right now?

That is a nice guess. You don't really know if such a thing would really happen do you? Commies and disaster relief? That is all guess work. Yes you have the luxury of 'I wound have never done that now that I know what is going to happen'.

Maybe you should check and see that the USA is responsible for 40% of the world wide total disaster relief.

Discarded Wobbly Pop
31st December 2004, 19:15
Originally posted by [email protected] 31 2004, 06:12 PM

There's no reason to assume that technological advancments wouldn't have made the technology widely available EVERYWHERE it was necessary.

If people are isolated in communes, and certain rare resources are found in a few communes, what would be the incentive to share these natural resources with other areas/continents/communes? Trade?
Just as long as these localities are aware of the possibilty of tsunamis, they will be able to get what they need, it's that simple.

Discarded Wobbly Pop
31st December 2004, 19:18
Originally posted by [email protected] 31 2004, 06:58 PM
Maybe you should check and see that the USA is responsible for 40% of the world wide total disaster relief.
That's just a political ploy, to gain support and up the sales on military equipment. The fact is that if they really gave a shit, these people would have been equiped with the technology to to actually help themselves. This is exactly what communism is about.

praxus
31st December 2004, 22:29
People are not isolated in communes. What gave you that idea? Communes are not self-sufficient, they are dependent on one another. Strangely enough, why do you assume the incentive has to account for selfishness? Maybe the incentive to work for society is very simply the enjoyment one gets from being socially respected as a productive member of that society.

Hmm, sounds selfish to me. Since you are the one gaining a value greater then the one you gave. If you were selfless then you would offer yourself to the disaster victims as food, that is the only sure way you can gain no value for yourself and be completly selfless.

NovelGentry
31st December 2004, 22:30
Egotistical does not equal selfish.

Edit: at least not from a material perspective.

praxus
31st December 2004, 22:36
What is the "ego". It's orginal latin meaning is "I" or "Self". To be egotistical is the same thing as being selfish.

NovelGentry
31st December 2004, 22:42
Self praise or pride -- conceit, boastfulness, etc... these are not issues that affect the material conditions of other beings. Inherently, being selfish does not either, one can be emotionally selfish, caring only about their own feelings, but more appropriately selfishness is applicable to very material things. Taking too much food for myself for example and leaving others with none is selfish, it is not necessarily egotistical. This isn't to say it can't be spawned from egotistical thinking, just to say that being egotistical is not being inherentley selfish.


What is the "ego". It's orginal latin meaning is "I" or "Self". To be egotistical is the same thing as being selfish.

Well good thing we don't speak Latin then.

Where I come from the primary definition of egotistical is as follows: A conceited, boastful person.

Selfishness on the other hand is defined as follows: Stinginess resulting from a concern for your own welfare and a disregard of others

If you'd like me to further go on an explain what conceited means I can.

ahhh_money_is_comfort
1st January 2005, 00:17
Originally posted by Discarded Wobbly Pop+Dec 31 2004, 07:15 PM--> (Discarded Wobbly Pop @ Dec 31 2004, 07:15 PM)
[email protected] 31 2004, 06:12 PM

There's no reason to assume that technological advancments wouldn't have made the technology widely available EVERYWHERE it was necessary.

If people are isolated in communes, and certain rare resources are found in a few communes, what would be the incentive to share these natural resources with other areas/continents/communes? Trade?
Just as long as these localities are aware of the possibilty of tsunamis, they will be able to get what they need, it's that simple. [/b]
I have a theory. I have a blue liquid that cures cancer. It is that simple. This blue liquid kills cancer cells in a petri dish. It will kill cancer cells in the human body. It is that simple. I have never seen it do so, but it is simple. It should work just like I have stated.

That is what you have just done.

The fact is you don't know how a communist system is going to distribute resources. Your guessing. You guessing how people are really going to behave and make decisions. I have never seen a communist system really share resources. Have you? Then how do you know such decisions and attitudes are going to prevail to prevent tragedy?

NovelGentry
1st January 2005, 01:46
The fact is you don't know how a communist system is going to distribute resources. Your guessing. You guessing how people are really going to behave and make decisions.

No, we do now how a communist society is going to distribute goods, because what defines a communist society is laid out. If it does not distribute goods in this manner than it is not communist. Do you understand that? If I come up with a new term, for example "Moronism" and I say, for Moronism to exist, all people must be as dumb as ahhh_money_is_comfort.... well then I can then say that all people under Moronism are as dumb as ahhh_money_is_comfort. You cannot argue otherwise because that is what defines the term. Communism is not just some random term that applies to any future society. It is a very specific term that applies to a very specific kind of society, unless society meets the proper criteria, it cannot be considered communism. So yes, we do know what distribution will be like under communism if it's anything else, it's simply not communism.


I have never seen a communist system really share resources. Have you?

I've never seen a communist system. There are selected and isolated systems that have resembled communism... take for example the Open Source movement, which we have mentioned time and time again. Under this system, yes, resources are shared. Not just virtual resources, material ones.


Then how do you know such decisions and attitudes are going to prevail to prevent tragedy?

It is not our position to KNOW this. Nor does it matter if we know it or not. If it's going to happen, it's going to happen, if it doesn't, then we'll be just as willing then as we are now to say "this isn't communism." The question isn't so much "How do you know under communism this is the way it is?" -- we know that once again because it's what defines communism, and if it's not that it's not communism. The better question is "How do you know that one day we will see communism?" That question has been answered multiple times over multiple threads. It is not a short answer, nor is it an easy answer for everyone to grasp.

Professor Moneybags
1st January 2005, 12:13
Originally posted by [email protected] 31 2004, 04:14 PM
Bet the Cappies aint thought of this. How can you justify the way that in a capitalist world, the relatively poor countries of Asia such as Thailand couldn't afford equipment to monitor the progress of potentially dangerous tidal waves as they moved accross the sea?
Once again we see proof that communists believe that one man's need necessitates turning another into his slave.

Don't bother to question why the US has these devices and Sri Lanka doesn't, whatever you do.

(BTW, I gave £25.)

Professor Moneybags
1st January 2005, 12:28
Strangely enough, why do you assume the incentive has to account for selfishness?

Because people aren't sasitsifed if they're not happy themselves.


Maybe the incentive to work for society is very simply the enjoyment one gets from being socially respected as a productive member of that society.

Only a loser gains self-esteem from how "other people" view them.

Professor Moneybags
1st January 2005, 12:33
Originally posted by [email protected] 31 2004, 10:42 PM
Selfishness on the other hand is defined as follows: Stinginess resulting from a concern for your own welfare and a disregard of others
As opposed to egoism, where one puts one's own welfare above others and respects other people's right to do the same.

Demanding that others support you (or others) is an example of selfishness. Refusing to give or recieve the unearned is an example of egoism.

ahhh_money_is_comfort
1st January 2005, 15:49
Originally posted by [email protected] 1 2005, 01:46 AM

The fact is you don't know how a communist system is going to distribute resources. Your guessing. You guessing how people are really going to behave and make decisions.

No, we do now how a communist society is going to distribute goods, because what defines a communist society is laid out. If it does not distribute goods in this manner than it is not communist. Do you understand that? If I come up with a new term, for example "Moronism" and I say, for Moronism to exist, all people must be as dumb as ahhh_money_is_comfort.... well then I can then say that all people under Moronism are as dumb as ahhh_money_is_comfort. You cannot argue otherwise because that is what defines the term. Communism is not just some random term that applies to any future society. It is a very specific term that applies to a very specific kind of society, unless society meets the proper criteria, it cannot be considered communism. So yes, we do know what distribution will be like under communism if it's anything else, it's simply not communism.


I have never seen a communist system really share resources. Have you?

I've never seen a communist system. There are selected and isolated systems that have resembled communism... take for example the Open Source movement, which we have mentioned time and time again. Under this system, yes, resources are shared. Not just virtual resources, material ones.


Then how do you know such decisions and attitudes are going to prevail to prevent tragedy?

It is not our position to KNOW this. Nor does it matter if we know it or not. If it's going to happen, it's going to happen, if it doesn't, then we'll be just as willing then as we are now to say "this isn't communism." The question isn't so much "How do you know under communism this is the way it is?" -- we know that once again because it's what defines communism, and if it's not that it's not communism. The better question is "How do you know that one day we will see communism?" That question has been answered multiple times over multiple threads. It is not a short answer, nor is it an easy answer for everyone to grasp.
Sounds like a who is a better starship captain? Kirk or Picard argument to me.

You believe in something without any evidence of it happening in a small scale or portions of it observed somewhere else.

I don't believe you. Show me where today such a thing takes place?

Basically you are saying it will happen because it is supposed to happen. Thus end my proof.

I have a cure for cancer. It is supposed to cure cancer. Will you be willing to try it if you have cancer? I have never observed it cure cancer in mice, rats, or any other experiment. But I did all the mental work and thought process about it. It will cure cancer. (Do you believe me)?

NovelGentry
1st January 2005, 16:26
Because people aren't sasitsifed if they're not happy themselves.

Why wouldn't they be happy?


Only a loser gains self-esteem from how "other people" view them.

Well then I guess we'll all be losers. Personally I enjoy being respected by people. It makes me know I've done something to earn their respect, which means I know I've done something good for a fellow man. Is this not one of the many driving forces between friendship? Do you not respect your friends? Do you not help your friends when you can?


As opposed to egoism, where one puts one's own welfare above others and respects other people's right to do the same.

Conceit does not automatically make you deprive other people of material things. It CAN, but it is not automatic. I'm egotistical and yet a very generous person. I do think highly of myself, and being that I'm generous I tend to think more highly of myself because I've done something good for someone else. So really, start to think about the differences.


Demanding that others support you (or others) is an example of selfishness. Refusing to give or recieve the unearned is an example of egoism.

Both COULD BE examples of egoism, depending on your drive to do such things, so certainly I disagree with the second part. It too is an example of selfishness it is simply more than likely ego driven.

NovelGentry
1st January 2005, 16:52
You believe in something without any evidence of it happening in a small scale or portions of it observed somewhere else.

We've given you small examples. We've given you large examples. Some fail early on, others last for years, and still others are still going.


I don't believe you. Show me where today such a thing takes place?

Once again, the Free Software movement is probably the best modern example, and strangely enough it exists amongst capitalism. It adhere's to many of the most important points about communism:

- Technological advancment has made it possible to exist and has made it's existence not just a possibility but a requirement. There's little point to computers for most people who enjoy them if they cannot do exactly what they wish with them. Earlier technology made this difficult.

- The products of the society are made "freely" available to all who want them, including those who do not work on them. In turn, however, any advancement to those products must also be released back to the society.

- People work for the benefit of the community, themselves, and also to be respected.

- It's classless, nationless, borderless, stateless. There is no one who makes all the decisions, if someone tried to the rest of the community could fork the project. This happened recently with XFree86, the only graphics subsystem software. Their licensing got changed, and people saw it as a way that they were trying to exact more control over the software (that is the people who were leading it). They took the old code licensed under the old license and XFree86 is now barely used and has very few developers. People work on this software from all over the world, regardless of language, race, sex, etc..etc. Because there is no class above any other, there is no centralized point at which control over the movement exists. Some people have GREAT influence, but the people have become willing to trust them. Disagreements have come up in the past between two parties with such influence, and they had little to no effect on the development process.

The most interesting part about this is that it has grown out of the technology REGARDLESS of capitalism. This isn't to say that this is possible with everything. Microsoft has TRIED to destroy the movement in more ways than one, mainly with propaganda right now, possibly through funding SCO to try and take legal action, etc..etc.. and may one day do so by force.

What we need to realize is that this possibility came out of people owning the means of production. The internet has changed what we see as means of production. You can now write a paper on your computer and distribute it across the world quickly and easily. You can create new products using programming languages and already existing products. We are able to have a free and open encyclopedia (www.wikipedia.com) , Libraries (http://www.gutenberg.org, http://www.marxists.org), Telephone service (http://www.skype.com), Mail system (e-mail)... etc..etc. While certainly you may say "well this isn't actually free, you have to first buy your computer and then pay internet access).

You may be right to some extent, but I suppose it depends how you look at that being paid for. If you spread it out amongst all the free products on the internet, nothing will cost 0, but the price will get lower and lower the more services you use. If you look at just the telephone service, that alone may cost the price of internet access, so in that sense you could scratch that off the list and consider all the rest of the stuff free.

This is only going to progress further, old but usable technology will get cheaper, newer faster stuff will be given comparitive prices to today. In some places, internet access is beginning to be supplied by local government. In other places, neighbors establish a single high speed connction to one house, and then share the single wirelessly. I'm really not sure how you think communism IS avoidable with increased technology.


Basically you are saying it will happen because it is supposed to happen. Thus end my proof.

It will happen because it is happening, and was happening, at least certain aspects of it. Is there any example of REAL communism? No. As I've pointed out, there's examples in a certain market, but that is very much in the nature of what Marx said. Technology does not progress evenly across the board, full blown communism will not exist until we see the production of necessities happening in this manner.

Examples of socialism have existed with practical issues, and in the end collapsed for one reason or another. In short this is due to poor implementation if you ask me. Some might say "well such examples were crushed by external influences." And yes, they were, and this is an implementation problem... if there is no means to protect the socialist state, it's not going to exist for very long. So once again, a very practical issue. What we are able to do, although all with our own different ideas, is take the examples of where one implementation worked, and where another worked where that one failed. We can try and combine the two to come up with a possible practical implementation that will survive indefinitely. The fact is, most previous attempts ignored one or another of the prerequisites, so if you ask me, they were failed from the start. This doesn't mean it's impossible, and I admit, it doesn't mean it's possible either, but there's no reason not to try.


I have a cure for cancer. It is supposed to cure cancer. Will you be willing to try it if you have cancer? I have never observed it cure cancer in mice, rats, or any other experiment. But I did all the mental work and thought process about it. It will cure cancer. (Do you believe me)?

No.

commiecrusader
1st January 2005, 17:31
Originally posted by [email protected] 31 2004, 07:58 PM
One question. What are YOU doing about it right now?

That is a nice guess. You don't really know if such a thing would really happen do you? Commies and disaster relief? That is all guess work. Yes you have the luxury of 'I wound have never done that now that I know what is going to happen'.

Maybe you should check and see that the USA is responsible for 40% of the world wide total disaster relief.
Like I said if you could read, I donated a days wages, plus any service tips I get at work are goin towards it as well, so fuck you.

The fact is that with this scenario, less disaster relief would be required, as the resources and equipment would have been available where they were needed not only where governments were taking enough money from the people to afford it.

Do you want to give a source for your 40% statistic? I'm not sure that it is true, and if it is, so what? American Aid usually comes with conditions such as reconstruction contracts etc.


Once again we see proof that communists believe that one man's need necessitates turning another into his slave.

Don't bother to question why the US has these devices and Sri Lanka doesn't, whatever you do.

(BTW, I gave £25.)
How did my point suggest that one man's need necessitates another becoming a slave?

The reasons the U$ have the devices and Sri Lanka and that dont are because:
1: The U$ has a grossly disproportionate share of global wealth
2:Many Governments in the Asian area are corrupted and concerned more with making money than spending it. (Whereas the U$ is ok with spending money as long as it will either kill lots of people, or make themselves more money)

And good work with the donation. :D

Militant
2nd January 2005, 02:06
Originally posted by [email protected] 31 2004, 04:14 PM
Bet the Cappies aint thought of this. How can you justify the way that in a capitalist world, the relatively poor countries of Asia such as Thailand couldn't afford equipment to monitor the progress of potentially dangerous tidal waves as they moved accross the sea? We have them in the Pacific Ocean even though there are hardly any earthquakes in it. In a Communist Society the equipment would have been shared and spread out much better, and would have saved many lives. Furthermore, the infrastructure of these areas would be more comparable to ours since resources would be spread more effectively, leading to a faster recovery and emergency services better able to cope with the disaster for the same reasons. They wouldn't have to wait several days before support arrived from other countries, and the support wouldn't be as badly needed.

Another symptom of capitalist society is that the U.$. government send a paltry £18m in aid despite being such a large economy, whereas the UK government is sending £50m. Which of these countries is currently the more Imperialist, right-wing and money oriented?
Not to alter the natural flow of the debate in this thread, but we need to acknowledge one fact about sharing the information about the earthquake.

The US did tell the countries around the epicenter that there was an earthquake. They warned Sri Lanka about a tidal wave. The problem lay not with detection, but with having infrastructure to alert the villages to the impeding threat.

That really pained me to say...

Djehuti
2nd January 2005, 03:42
I think you all should read Amadeo Bordiga's Murdering the Dead.
It can be read online at:
http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Lobby...iga/mtdtoc.html (http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Lobby/3909/bordiga/mtdtoc.html)

Here Bordiga shows that the most disastrous with "natural" disasters in a very high grade depends on social conditions (capitalism). He focuses on the great floods in Italy at the 50ties and 60ties. Very intresting.


I would also like to recomend the Harry Cleaver's The Uses of an Earthquake
http://www.eco.utexas.edu/facstaff/Cleaver/earthquake.html

This work shows that disasters such as this could have some possitive effects to,
like a higher level of class struggle. He analyze the aftermath of the great earth quake disaster in Mexico 1985, which lead to an intensification of the class struggle,
from both sides.

ahhh_money_is_comfort
2nd January 2005, 03:55
Originally posted by [email protected] 1 2005, 04:52 PM

You believe in something without any evidence of it happening in a small scale or portions of it observed somewhere else.

We've given you small examples. We've given you large examples. Some fail early on, others last for years, and still others are still going.

[/quote]
No you have given me more theory and more detail on the theory. The theory is not a proof.

ahhh_money_is_comfort
2nd January 2005, 04:08
Originally posted by commiecrusader+Jan 1 2005, 05:31 PM--> (commiecrusader @ Jan 1 2005, 05:31 PM)
[email protected] 31 2004, 07:58 PM
One question. What are YOU doing about it right now?

That is a nice guess. You don't really know if such a thing would really happen do you? Commies and disaster relief? That is all guess work. Yes you have the luxury of 'I wound have never done that now that I know what is going to happen'.

Maybe you should check and see that the USA is responsible for 40% of the world wide total disaster relief.
Like I said if you could read, I donated a days wages, plus any service tips I get at work are goin towards it as well, so fuck you.

The fact is that with this scenario, less disaster relief would be required, as the resources and equipment would have been available where they were needed not only where governments were taking enough money from the people to afford it.

Do you want to give a source for your 40% statistic? I'm not sure that it is true, and if it is, so what? American Aid usually comes with conditions such as reconstruction contracts etc.


Once again we see proof that communists believe that one man's need necessitates turning another into his slave.

Don't bother to question why the US has these devices and Sri Lanka doesn't, whatever you do.

(BTW, I gave £25.)
How did my point suggest that one man's need necessitates another becoming a slave?

The reasons the U$ have the devices and Sri Lanka and that dont are because:
1: The U$ has a grossly disproportionate share of global wealth
2:Many Governments in the Asian area are corrupted and concerned more with making money than spending it. (Whereas the U$ is ok with spending money as long as it will either kill lots of people, or make themselves more money)

And good work with the donation. :D [/b]
BTW. Those poor countries don't need early warning. They got early warning from the USA.

"India investigates report that early warning on tsunami fell through cracks"

http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Science/2004/1.../802432-ap.html (http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Science/2004/12/30/802432-ap.html)

Where did I get 40%? Press conference with George Bush, after being insulted by the UN.

Professor Moneybags
2nd January 2005, 12:17
Well then I guess we'll all be losers. Personally I enjoy being respected by people.

Yes, but that's not the root cause. It should be a secondary, not a primary consideration.

Professor Moneybags
2nd January 2005, 13:12
How did my point suggest that one man's need necessitates another becoming a slave?

Read on.


The reasons the U$ have the devices and Sri Lanka and that dont are because:
1: The U$ has a grossly disproportionate share of global wealth

There is no such thing. The US has more wealth because is produces more wealth. There is no "global weath", only that which belong to its individual members. Now, something to consider if you plan on "redistributing" it; doing so requires you to take money from individual people who have worked for it and earned it and given it to those who have not whether they agree to it or not.


2:Many Governments in the Asian area are corrupted and concerned more with making money than spending it. (Whereas the U$ is ok with spending money as long as it will either kill lots of people, or make themselves more money)

Non sequitur.

Professor Moneybags
2nd January 2005, 13:24
Here Bordiga shows that the most disastrous with "natural" disasters in a very high grade depends on social conditions (capitalism). He focuses on the great floods in Italy at the 50ties and 60ties. Very intresting.

Even if you did believe in man-made global warming, it would be a problem under any political system. How else does he intend to solve this problem (of questionable existence) without coercion ? He probably doesn't.

But that's not all; he blames the Aids epidemic in Africa on capitalism too, because western companies (you know, the ones who developed, invented and manufactured the drugs to treat it) don't just hand them over for free.

He's just another advocate of armed robbery and dictatorship. Show me something new.

NovelGentry
2nd January 2005, 19:16
No you have given me more theory and more detail on the theory. The theory is not a proof.

What about the example I gave you right after the statement you quoted?

What about the Paris commune that we've mentioned before, which only ended because of military failure, that is, they were invaded and taken over. The system worked with the exception of defense.

You have shown by your statement that no matter what examples we give you will just ignore them. Why didn't you address anything I said about the free software movement?


Yes, but that's not the root cause. It should be a secondary, not a primary consideration.

Why? What's wrong with seeing us as social creatures and using our social nature to explain why we do certain things? Some people wouldn't get a job their entire life if they thought they could get laid as a bum! I'm not saying this is good, or proper. But money comes into question more often than not for some of the simplest things. In fact, I would argue it is the root cause in existing society. The problem is that what garners respect in this society tends to be wealth -- it is the primary measure of success and what deems you an "important" person.

Take for example my uncle, who at every family gathering has the audacity to ask me if I'm making millions off of computers yet. When I explain to him that's not why I got into computers and I tend to do most of my work for the free software community he stops listening. In his eyes I will be a failure until I'm making money from what I do, yet in the eyes of other people in the free software community the work I do is success and I'm respected by many.

commiecrusader
2nd January 2005, 19:51
BTW. Those poor countries don't need early warning. They got early warning from the USA.

"India investigates report that early warning on tsunami fell through cracks"

http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Science/2004/1.../802432-ap.html
I will give you a guess as to why India couldn't afford to have the infrastructure necessary.


Where did I get 40%? Press conference with George Bush, after being insulted by the UN.
And everything Bu$h says is diamond huh? He never makes mistakes about intelligence or even common sense *cough* IRAQ *cough* 9/11 *cough* *cough*
Sorry bout my cough, my white blood cells were told it wouldn't be a problem.


There is no such thing. The US has more wealth because is produces more wealth. There is no "global weath", only that which belong to its individual members. Now, something to consider if you plan on "redistributing" it; doing so requires you to take money from individual people who have worked for it and earned it and given it to those who have not whether they agree to it or not.

I would have thought someone as materialist as your good self would be able to think a bit more for yourself. There is a certain ammount of resources in the world. In a capitalist world, these resources are worth a certain amount of money. Which country takes a disproportionate amount of these resources and by extension, the money? Redistributing wealth requires taking money from people who have more than they need, therefore it shouldn't be a problem less they are greedy like you. In a Communist society, wealth wouldn't be redistributed anyway, 'wealth' would cease to exist, being a materialist concept as it is. People would simply have what they needed.

Djehuti
3rd January 2005, 00:31
The Fox News has an intresting repotage:
http://www.udargo.com/burton/Tsunami/

:rolleyes:

Commie Girl
5th January 2005, 17:24
Originally posted by [email protected] 31 2004, 12:58 PM

One question. What are YOU doing about it right now?

Maybe you should check and see that the USA is responsible for 40% of the world wide total disaster relief.

:blink:

Source (http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-generous31dec31,1,6586105.story?coll=la-headlines-world)


Government aid and private giving, per person, per day in 2002: Country Government Private
Norway $1.02 $0.24
Denmark 0.84 0.01
Sweden 0.61 0.01
Netherlands 0.57 0.04
Switzerland 0.35 0.07
Belgium 0.28 0.02
Ireland 0.28 0.06
France 0.25 0.01
Finland 0.24 0.01
Britain 0.23 0.02
Japan 0.20 0.004
Austria 0.18 0.02
Canada 0.17 0.02
Australia 0.14 0.03
United States 0.13 0.05
Italy 0.11 0.002
Spain 0.11 0.01
Portugal 0.9 0.001
New Zealand 0.8 0.01
Greece 0.7 0.001





U.S. Aid Generous and Stingy
It depends on how the numbers are crunched -- total dollars or a slice of the overall economy.


December 31, 2004

By Sonni Efron, Times Staff Writer


WASHINGTON — Americans think of themselves as the most generous people on Earth. So to many, it came as a shock to hear that the U.S. response to the southern Asian tsunami this week was considered stingy.

But views of American generosity depend on who is doing the measuring and how.

By total money, the United States by far donates more than any other country in the world. This is the gauge preferred by most U.S. officials.

But when aid is calculated per U.S. citizen or as a percentage of the economy, the United States ranks among the least generous in the industrialized world.

As U.S. officials and foreign aid experts debate which measure is more apt, the issue is another example of how Americans' views of themselves differ from those from around the world.

"I don't take kindly to comments from the U.N. calling these miserly responses, when we're the ones who generally foot the bill, and we will in this one," said Sen. Sam Brownback (R-Kan.), referring to comments this week from U.N. aid officials questioning initial U.S. aid offers.

The Bush administration now is pledging much more, at least $35 million, up from $15 million, and said the amount would rise further. Still, others in Washington sympathize with the view held outside U.S. borders that Americans can afford more.

"It's embarrassing," said Tim Rieser, an aide to Sen. Patrick J. Leahy (D-Vt.) who works on foreign aid issues in the Senate and was in the Sri Lankan capital when the tsunami struck. "Nothing illustrates this more vividly than that out of a trillion-dollar budget, we provide less than 1% for foreign assistance and far less than 1% for humanitarian aid.

"Our ability to give far exceeds what we do give," Rieser said.

Critics of U.S. giving often cite statistics from the Paris-based Organization of Economic Cooperation and Development, which each year measures overseas development assistance as a percentage of gross national income for the 22 leading industrialized nations.

In 2003, the United States ranked dead last on OECD's list, spending only 0.15% of its national income. Other Western countries contributed more. Norway spent 0.92% of its national income; France 0.4% and Britain 0.34%.

Officials in both the Bush and the Clinton administrations have argued that the OECD statistics are misleading. The OECD does not measure many forms of assistance provided by the U.S. government other than formal foreign aid, officials said.

Although the OECD measure puts U.S. spending on foreign aid at $16.2 billion last year, the U.S. Agency for International Development counts U.S. giving differently. USAID officials point to its report on aid in 2000 saying government assistance to developing countries totaled $22.6 billion. Further, private assistance — including giving by individuals, religious groups, foundations, corporations, universities and others — was an additional $33.6 billion, said USAID, for a total of more than $56 billion.

Still, many outside the U.S. government believe that aid spending should not include some military expenditures or funds to promote democracy.

Even using the American view of largess, the United States comes up short compared with other nations, said Patrick Cronin, a former assistant administrator for policy and program coordination at USAID under President Bush.

"We have to do more," said Cronin, now at the Center for Strategic and International Studies, a Washington think-tank. "But we have to do it smart, and we have to change the debate away from a simple redistribution of wealth to a discussion of … aid effectiveness."

A different key measure of international generosity was devised by the Center for Global Development and Foreign Policy magazine. It ranked rich countries' contributions to the poor in terms of contributions through aid, trade, investment, technology, security, technology and the environment. Countries got points for the quality as well as the quantity of their aid and contributions.

On that scale, the U.S. ranked seventh out of 21 nations, behind Canada, Britain, Australia, Sweden, Denmark and the Netherlands.

Japan, which is one of the world's largest aid donors but collects huge interest payments on its development loans, ranked last.

The scale found that U.S. contributions of pure foreign aid was relatively much lower than other countries'. The U.S. scored higher on immigration and trade. Allowing foreigners and foreign products into the country are considered measures of how much a rich country is willing to help poorer ones.

But the study upended the commonly held view that shortfalls in U.S. government aid for the global poor were made up by private American contributions.

It found that U.S. government foreign aid in 2002 worked out to 13 cents per American a day. Private donations from U.S. citizens amounted to 5 cents per person a day.

But in 16 other countries, governments gave more. And in three other countries — Switzerland, Ireland and Norway — private citizens gave more.

The Norwegian government gave $1.02 per citizen a day while private giving came to 24 cents a day.

Cronin said that U.S. per capita giving would never match that of Norway, a nation of 4.5 million. On the other hand, the United States makes many other contributions that are hard to quantify in dollar terms, he said, including using its military prowess for worldwide peacekeeping operations that benefit others, or airlifting tsunami relief supplies to remote areas and sending in ships that desalinate water.

"We're not going to hand out the Nobel Peace Prize, but we are going to go into harm's way and provide international security in a way Norway won't, even though they are a staunch U.S. ally," Cronin said.

David Roodman, one of the architects of the Center for Global Development study, argued that no wealthy country was giving enough to the poor.

"Stingy, of course, is a relative term," Roodman said. "I wouldn't say the entire world is stingy. But helping the rest of the world is clearly a low priority in making our policies, and that's true in every country to a greater or lesser extent."

U.S. overseas assistance aid declined in the late 1990s but has increased under Bush from $10 billion in 2000 to $16 billion in 2004. That represents about a quarter of total aid from all the industrialized countries.

At the same time, without another large spending hike, U.S. commitments to Iraq and Afghanistan and now the 11 tsunami-stricken nations are expected to strain the budget for aid to other parts of the world.

Some critics compared Bush's $35-million pledge for the tsunami victims with the roughly $1 billion a week the U.S. was spending in Iraq.

Although the American left has traditionally lobbied for more foreign aid, it is the Christian right that is credited with convincing the administration to spend more on fighting global AIDS and on hunger in Africa. Christian groups also pressed Bush to increase relief efforts for the tsunami victims.

Given the war in Iraq, political efforts in the Muslim world are especially sensitive. Some critics have argued that the administration should have jumped at a chance to show its generosity over a natural disaster that hit Asian Muslims.

In an interview with ABC News' "Nightline," outgoing Secretary of State Colin L. Powell defended the administration's efforts on behalf of Muslims. He said the U.S. had played an important role in Kosovo, Kuwait, Iraq and Afghanistan, where he maintained Muslim populations were freed from oppression.

"So we have nothing to apologize for with respect to what we have tried to do to help Muslims over the years," Powell said. "And this [tsunami aid] is another example of our willingness to help."

The Bush administration has tried to focus its aid on key goals such as economic and political reform. And its Millennium Challenge Account aid program is designed to give assistance to countries that use it most effectively toward those ends.

Some applaud those goals, saying Americans should insist on productive use of aid. Others, like David L. Phillips of the Council on Foreign Relations in New York, said the Bush administration "sees development assistance through an ideological prism."

"Its approach to foreign aid is based on a democracy and freedom criteria," Phillips said. "There's nothing wrong with linking aid to democratic development, but that shouldn't preclude countries that are just starting on the path to democracy from benefiting from foreign aid."

Professor Moneybags
5th January 2005, 22:28
It's easy to be generous when giving away other people's money.

Professor Moneybags
5th January 2005, 22:36
I would have thought someone as materialist as your good self would be able to think a bit more for yourself.

Materialist ? I beg your pardon ?


There is a certain ammount of resources in the world. In a capitalist world, these resources are worth a certain amount of money. Which country takes a disproportionate amount of these resources and by extension, the money?

Money does not come solely from natural resources, otherwise places like Japan and Swizerland would be third world countries. This also a non-sequitur. Wealth is created, not merely redistributed.


Redistributing wealth requires taking money from people who have more than they need,

Voluntarily or by force ? By who's decree and by what standard are we defining need ?


therefore it shouldn't be a problem less they are greedy like you.

Or if they don't like the idea of being robbed. The money isn't theirs, it's ours- individually. Would mind if someone emptied your bank account without your permission if they run short of cash ? I trust that you think burglary is okay, too.

Djehuti
6th January 2005, 03:16
Donating money?


http://www.revolutionaryleft.com/index.php?showtopic=31978



"Janatha Vimukthi Peramuna (the strongest leftist movment in Sri Lanka) have started a "Relief Services Force". They are marxists and the most important organization in the Sri Lankian new left. In 1989 the goverment tried to vipe them out, and killed 60:000 party members. Today they have joined with Sri Lanka Freedom Party (reformist socialists) and formed United Peoples Freedom Alliance. and accually won the election. The JVP got the most "personal votes", and their parlementary sitters take no wages for their work but gives everything away to social causes. And they are definitly the strongest party within the student movement.

They do not seem to be corrupt at all, and I do believe that they are able to aid those in need. They have a vast network of organizations in all the affected areas (they are strongest in those parts), except for a few areas that are under the controll of the Tamilian Tigers. And they do have av very close connection to the people, etc.
I do believe that its bether to give your money via the JVP. The western organizations also tend to focus on diseases that are common in the western world over the diseases that are most dangerous to the native population. Since western tourists are valued more. And they also tend to focus more on Thailand and those countries, rather then those that are most affected and least able to handle the disaster, such as Sri Lanka for example."

--------------------------------------------------------

Process of sending money from foreign countries:

Method Telex - Swift (Swift Code : PSBKLKLX023)
Please send money to People’s Bank International Division, Colombo, Sri Lanka for further credit of Acc. No. 0174 165 0108156 of RELIEF SERVICES FUND – JVP with People’s Bank Nugegoda Branch."

http://www.jvpsrilanka.com/activities.htm
http://www.jvpsrilanka.com/relief_service_fund.htm

commiecrusader
6th January 2005, 18:04
Money does not come solely from natural resources, otherwise places like Japan and Swizerland would be third world countries.
Bollocks Bollocks Bollocks. Money is based on something. There is only so much stuff in the world that you could slap a pricing label on.


This also a non-sequitur
Sorry for my ignorance but I don't know what this means. I guess it means nonsense, or an invalid point or something like that.


Wealth is created, not merely redistributed.
If wealth is created, then why can I not simply 'create' my own £20 notes? And why is the value of currency based on the Gold Standard? And why did the mass production of German currency lead to their money becoming worthless? And why do the concepts of 'rich' and 'poor' exist?


Or if they don't like the idea of being robbed. The money isn't theirs, it's ours- individually. Would mind if someone emptied your bank account without your permission if they run short of cash ? I trust that you think burglary is okay, too.
You like changing the subject do you? It's not necessarily 'robbery', since that means force has to be used. And I'm not talking about 'emptying someones bank account'. Im talking about sharing wealth, so that everyone has what they need.

Since you like changing the subject to only slightly connected things, do you approve of sweatshops and other capitalist hallmarks? No I do not want an answer, I am just demonstrating your 'debating' technique.

seraphim
7th January 2005, 12:47
The British Government did send 50 million but to date thats about half what the british people have pledged in terms of money, clothes, food and water. A Wiltshire based radio station immediately started a campain which so far has filled 3 warehouses and an aircraft hanger with aid.

Professor Moneybags
7th January 2005, 14:16
Bollocks Bollocks Bollocks. Money is based on something.

Not merely natural resources, as you claimed.


If wealth is created, then why can I not simply 'create' my own £20 notes?

That's not what I meant. You're equivocating.


And why is the value of currency based on the Gold Standard?

It isn't, unfortunately.


And why did the mass production of German currency lead to their money becoming worthless?

Because paper money is "pretend" wealth. Like the stuff you get out of a game of monopoly.


You like changing the subject do you?

I'm not changing the subject.


It's not necessarily 'robbery', since that means force has to be used.

Force is being used.


And I'm not talking about 'emptying someones bank account'. Im talking about sharing wealth, so that everyone has what they need.

Which cannot be achieved without emptying someone's bank account. If it was voluntary, there would be no problem. However, consensus isn't really something most of you care about, is it ?


Since you like changing the subject to only slightly connected things, do you approve of sweatshops and other capitalist hallmarks?

Have you stopped beating your wife ?


No I do not want an answer, I am just demonstrating your 'debating' technique.

Then why did you ask ?

Big Boss
7th January 2005, 14:37
What kind of diseased thinking do you have, cappie? You are bashing Communism when capitalism has caused as much sorrow as the"help" that they claim they have given tho those in need. Stop being arrogant about the cars you have or have driven, that is childish and completely retarded!

commiecrusader
7th January 2005, 18:53
It isn't, unfortunately.
Why was it then?


Because paper money is "pretend" wealth. Like the stuff you get out of a game of monopoly.
Then what is this 'wealth' of which you speak that can magically be created?


Force is being used.
Not to take the money it isn't. Force may have to be used to gain control of banks from the bourgeoisie that control them, but force wouldn't be used to take money out of accounts with money far beyond the owners needs, and then put into very poor peoples accounts would it. It could be done with a computer.

This whole argument though is somewhat academic however given that money will cease to exist.


Which cannot be achieved without emptying someone's bank account
You are really very stupid. It would not be necessary to take all of a person's money, you could leave them with enough to live on.


If it was voluntary, there would be no problem. However, consensus isn't really something most of you care about, is it ?
The revolution will comprise of the workers rebelling against the bourgeois oppressors. The workers outnumber the bourgeoisie considerably, so in a capitalist 'democracy', surely the opinion of the workers should override that of the oppressors. Except for the fact that the oppressors are hypochritical arseholes like you.


Have you stopped beating your wife ?
Don't have a wife to beat.


Then why did you ask ?
I answered this question already:
I am just demonstrating your 'debating' technique.. I will give you the benefit of the doubt and assume your stupidity was simply to provoke some kind of reaction.

Discarded Wobbly Pop
7th January 2005, 20:48
The Iraq Distatser, How Capitalism Made It Worse:

er... created it. But anyhow is anyone else disgusted about all the benefit concerts for the victims of the tsunami?

I mean I understand that it's a horrible tragedy, but where are the benefit concerts for the 100,000 victims of the Iraq distaster?

commiecrusader
7th January 2005, 21:42
A good point Discarded Wobbly Pop. I expect there are lots of threads about this elsewhere. I just wondered how the cappies would react to this suggestion.

FatFreeMilk
7th January 2005, 22:47
Maybe you should check and see that the USA is responsible for 40% of the world wide total disaster relief.

So what, they raised it to $350 million which is like about $1.20 per American. I read that about three years ago Bush and fam signed a pledge, the Monterrey Consensus to provide 0.7% of national income in assistance to the worlds' poor. Right now we're at 0.15% of that pledge.

If that was raised to 70 cents we would be able to save thousands of lives and help prevent deaths like this from happening in the future, but noo.

Isn't it sad that poeple in poorer countries are dying of easily preventable afflictions while all the rich ones do nothing about it.

Sure all the rich countries can aid the countries affected by the tsunami, but why not invest a little attention to the bigger problem, the poverty in these countries that makes the death tolls from natural disaters like this way higher.

Every country is affected by natural disaters, it's just that poorer ones are hit harder.

Invader Zim
8th January 2005, 04:31
Ohh it pisses me off no end, Blair has said we will give £100 million, well that is just not good enough. We should be giving at least ten times that figure, minimum!

Even a £billion is only around £16.60 per person, about the same cost of a standard CD in on the high street. That is absolutly shit, an utter disgrace that Blair and co are not even willing to give the cost of a CD for each person in the UK. Yet they are willing to spend that kind of money on a giant tent in the middle of London which is good for neither man or beast.

I have seen the government sink low before, but this is it the pits the fucking pits.

commiecrusader
8th January 2005, 10:22
You must live in London cos I wouldnt pay £16 for a CD, jus wait for the sales. Blair has now said we will give 'hundreds of thousands of pounds', and that the governments donations will definitely exceed those of the British people.

Its probably complete bollocks but there you go.

Professor Moneybags
8th January 2005, 17:03
Stop being arrogant about the cars you have or have driven, that is childish and completely retarded!

What the hell are you talking about ?

Professor Moneybags
8th January 2005, 17:18
Why was it then?

Because you can't "print" gold.

<snip the other silliness- if you want to learn economics and why the LTV is bunk, read von Mises>


Not to take the money it isn&#39;t.

I&#39;m afraid it is. It&#39;s called stealing. That is force.


Force may have to be used to gain control of banks from the bourgeoisie that control them,

Who do you think started them ?


but force wouldn&#39;t be used to take money out of accounts with money far beyond the owners needs,

The fact that it is taken at all is unacceptable. It does make it any less an act of theft.


This whole argument though is somewhat academic however given that money will cease to exist.

Put the crystal ball away, o prophet.


You are really very stupid. It would not be necessary to take all of a person&#39;s money,

As if the quantity mattered.


you could leave them with enough to live on.

A thief does that when he breaks into your house. So does a mugger when he demands you wallet.


The workers outnumber the bourgeoisie considerably, so in a capitalist &#39;democracy&#39;, surely the opinion of the workers should override that of the oppressors.

Does that mean that the right of a gang of rapists should override that of the victim ?


Except for the fact that the oppressors are hypochritical arseholes like you.

Point out the hypocracy or shut up.


I will give you the benefit of the doubt and assume your stupidity was simply to provoke some kind of reaction.

What&#39;s your stupidity in aid of, then ? Seeing as most of your arguments are ad hominem, I would seem that you are just another troll.

commiecrusader
9th January 2005, 12:08
I&#39;m afraid it is. It&#39;s called stealing. That is force.
Stealing can be classed as Theft or Burglary, depending on whether force is used. If someone picked your pocket, they arent using force, and its Theft. If they punch you in the face and grab your wallet, they use force, and it&#39;s burglary.


Who do you think started them ?
Who do I think started what? Banks? Or seizing control of them?


The fact that it is taken at all is unacceptable. It does make it any less an act of theft.
Im not disputing that it is an act of theft. However, most thefts are motivated by greed and for the benefit of one person. I am talking about theft which would have no dextrimental effect on anyone, and would benefit all. And I realise that in your opinion, taking xxxgerzillion dollars from Bill Gates would be a heinous crime that would probably ruin his life, but in reality, it wouldn&#39;t effect his ability to provide for himselft and his family, he is that damn rich.


A thief does that when he breaks into your house. So does a mugger when he demands you wallet.
Whilst technically the same, as I explained before, these actions are performed with completely different motivations than what I was talking about.


Does that mean that the right of a gang of rapists should override that of the victim ?
Only if the society as a whole if in favour of rape. Which I don&#39;t believe it is.


Point out the hypocracy or shut up.
You are a capitalist. There are many hypocracies in capitalism, such as &#39;equal opportunities&#39; and stuff like that, and yet, the people who are most rich rarely change families. If opportunities truly were equal, surely everyone would be rich, since I don&#39;t think anyone chooses to be crippled by debts etc.


What&#39;s your stupidity in aid of, then ? Seeing as most of your arguments are ad hominem, I would seem that you are just another troll.
Lets get a few things straight:
1. Using Latin doesn&#39;t make you better/cleverer than anyone else
2. Many of your &#39;arguments&#39; couldn&#39;t be called such:

Put the crystal ball away, o prophet.

Have you stopped beating your wife ?
Who&#39;s the troll now Gollum?

Big Boss
10th January 2005, 00:10
You see? This the reason why cappies are such brainwashed retards who give a shit about what is going on in the other side of the planet because they have everything and the feeling of solidarity is not in their television manipulated heads full of crap and of what is the goverments version of "facts". That is what differs between a communist and a walking talking robot of a cappie. We Communists do give a shit about what is happening to the proletariat and the marginalized of the world. Also, STOP BEING ARROGANT ABOUT YOU F#&#036;@ED UP CARS&#33;&#33; It is really retarded &#33;

Professor Moneybags
10th January 2005, 17:24
Stealing can be classed as Theft or Burglary, depending on whether force is used. If someone picked your pocket, they arent using force, and its Theft. If they punch you in the face and grab your wallet, they use force, and it&#39;s burglary.

Both the thief and burglar are initiating force to varying degrees, but the principle remains the same.


Who do I think started what? Banks? Or seizing control of them?

Who siezed control of them ? I trust you have proof of this.


Im not disputing that it is an act of theft. However, most thefts are motivated by greed and for the benefit of one person.

The motive or number of percieved beneficiaries is irrelevent.


I am talking about theft which would have no dextrimental effect on anyone,

There is no such thing.


and would benefit all.

Again, this is irrelevent.


If opportunities truly were equal, surely everyone would be rich, since I don&#39;t think anyone chooses to be crippled by debts etc.

This is a non-sequitur.


Lets get a few things straight:
1. Using Latin doesn&#39;t make you better/cleverer than anyone else

I never said it did and I don&#39;t use it for that purpose.


2. Many of your &#39;arguments&#39; couldn&#39;t be called such:

Put the crystal ball away, o prophet.

Have you stopped beating your wife ?
Who&#39;s the troll now Gollum?

You didn&#39;t get that last one did you ? Do a search.

Professor Moneybags
10th January 2005, 17:27
<snip the garbage>


Also, STOP BEING ARROGANT ABOUT YOU F#&#036;@ED UP CARS&#33;&#33; It is really retarded &#33;

Nobody is mentioning cars. Put the spliff away.

commiecrusader
10th January 2005, 18:16
Originally posted by Professor [email protected] 10 2005, 06:24 PM

Stealing can be classed as Theft or Burglary, depending on whether force is used. If someone picked your pocket, they arent using force, and its Theft. If they punch you in the face and grab your wallet, they use force, and it&#39;s burglary.

Both the thief and burglar are initiating force to varying degrees, but the principle remains the same.


Who do I think started what? Banks? Or seizing control of them?

Who siezed control of them ? I trust you have proof of this.


Im not disputing that it is an act of theft. However, most thefts are motivated by greed and for the benefit of one person.

The motive or number of percieved beneficiaries is irrelevent.


I am talking about theft which would have no dextrimental effect on anyone,

There is no such thing.


and would benefit all.

Again, this is irrelevent.


If opportunities truly were equal, surely everyone would be rich, since I don&#39;t think anyone chooses to be crippled by debts etc.

This is a non-sequitur.


Lets get a few things straight:
1. Using Latin doesn&#39;t make you better/cleverer than anyone else

I never said it did and I don&#39;t use it for that purpose.


2. Many of your &#39;arguments&#39; couldn&#39;t be called such:

Put the crystal ball away, o prophet.

Have you stopped beating your wife ?
Who&#39;s the troll now Gollum?

You didn&#39;t get that last one did you ? Do a search.
I give up &#39;debating&#39; with you. You don&#39;t debate, you just bury your head in the sand and give answers trying to dismiss everything as irrelevent or whatever a &#39;non sequitur&#39; is. You dont give reasons for your assertions, or back up anything you say with theories or facts or even examples. Your just a stubborn bastard who isnt prepared to listen to anyone who doesnt agree with you.

Big Boss
10th January 2005, 21:27
I don&#39;t even know why I get pissed at retarded robots who are controled by a capitalist system. And I didn&#39;t meant you moneybags, it was another cappie who posted earlier than you did. Cappies like yourself are so brainwashed that you don&#39;t even give a asecond thought at what people with different ideologies like yours has to say. And don&#39;t stress it Crusader, he is as blind as the other people in his country. It is a shame that people are stricken from the light of truth as the cappies have been. Sympathy and sadness when I lokk into the media controled eyes of a capitalist. This situation does not change the fact that cappies are extremely fucked up in the brain almost as much as fucking Nazis are&#33; :angry:

Professor Moneybags
11th January 2005, 17:22
I give up &#39;debating&#39; with you.

You did that before you even started; name-calling is not debating.

Professor Moneybags
11th January 2005, 17:31
Originally posted by Fervent [email protected] 10 2005, 09:27 PM
Cappies like yourself are so brainwashed that
There is no such thing as brainwashing; all ideas are accepted by choice. You cannot force someone to think.


And don&#39;t stress it Crusader, he is as blind as the other people in his country. It is a shame that people are stricken from the light of truth as the cappies have been.

Is communism a religion now, is it ?

commiecrusader
11th January 2005, 18:44
Originally posted by Professor [email protected] 11 2005, 06:22 PM

I give up &#39;debating&#39; with you.

You did that before you even started; name-calling is not debating.
Correct. But I dont base my whole arguments on nihilism or insults, unlike you.

Professor Moneybags
12th January 2005, 16:06
Originally posted by commiecrusader+Jan 11 2005, 06:44 PM--> (commiecrusader @ Jan 11 2005, 06:44 PM)
Professor [email protected] 11 2005, 06:22 PM

I give up &#39;debating&#39; with you.

You did that before you even started; name-calling is not debating.
Correct. But I dont base my whole arguments on nihilism or insults, unlike you. [/b]
My arguments are not based on nihilism or insults. Point out where I have done this.

Give up.