Communism == Nazism -- a way around?

[encephalon]

I've noticed that people from every spectrum of wealth and education, at least in Ohio, seem to think communism and nazism are exactly the same thing. If they see a Marx pin, they ask if I'm a Nazi. Lenin? Nazi. Che? Nazi. I must admit, the ruling institutions have done a very good job at villianizing Communism, and associating it with Nazi terror and hatred. I'm guessing Europe doesn't have this same problem, but something similar may be there.

My question is this: as Communists, how are we to go about changing this false and harmful perception? Education is obviously the key, but in such situations in which you meet strangers (like school or work), you've little opportunity to even explain that they are two starkly different things, let alone explain the basics.

I once had a black man scream and call me white racist trash (among other things) because I was wearing a hammer and sickle.

I wonder how long it would take for the authorities to put a stop to communists passing out pamphlets in schools and universities as do churches and businesses already to counter misinformation.. any ideas?

[NovelGentry]

You can always make out the people with programming expeirence by their =='s instead of =.

Maybe you could get the hammer and sickle and put a != in between that and the nazi swastika.

But in all seriousness, if they prejudge just by what they see, then equate what they see to your message. Get a t-shirt that says "Communists hate Fascists/Nazis"

[American_Trotskyist]

Just mention to them that Hitler was funded by Capitalist, especially US ones, and the Marxist were the only ones who fought him while the Capitalist put him in and maintained him. Then they are the NAZIs

[Cal]

Hitler was funded by Capitalist, especially US ones, and the Marxist were the only ones who fought him

What? We're not in the business of re-writing history are we?

Those same Marxist's you were on about were allied to him between 39 and 41 and there was only one country fighting him.

[PRC-UTE]

What? We're not in the business of re-writing history are we?

Those same Marxist's you were on about were allied to him between 39 and 41 and there was only one country fighting him.

Marxists fought the Nazis in Spain. So did the anarchists.

It's true though that the capitalist countries funded the Nazis, even sustained Hitler after the Beer Hall Putsch. Whereas the Soviet Union lost 30 - 50 million people in the war.

[Cal]

Spain was never mentioned, Hitler was.

As to your other point I know what the Soviet Union lost in WW2, just pointing out that there were some other countries fighting Hitler as well.

[encephalon]

You can always make out the people with programming expeirence by their =='s instead of =.

Maybe you could get the hammer and sickle and put a != in between that and the nazi swastika.

But in all seriousness, if they prejudge just by what they see, then equate what they see to your message. Get a t-shirt that says "Communists hate Fascists/Nazis"


damn, I gave away my revolutionary programming practices! It's strange how easily that becomes second nature.. almost like the adoption of capitalist social roles...

Actually, I'm a little curious as to what kind of correlation there might be in that, seeing as how programming is nothing but pure logic, and philosophy--especially marxism--tends to deify it, to an extent (not literally). Given the open-source movement and such, it seems there would be quite a few communist-like programmers at least, even if they don't quite know it.

I think I will make that shirt, actually. Can't quite wear it at work (luckily, the owner doesn't have any idea what any of the communist symbols are, somehow..), but it may help a little.


What? We're not in the business of re-writing history are we?

Those same Marxist's you were on about were allied to him between 39 and 41 and there was only one country fighting him.

I think he's talking about inside germany, not the non-aggression pact between stalin and hitler. The German communist parties were fighting against Nazi power, which may be why Hitler detested them so (though I'm sure, with marx being a jew by race, he'd have killed every communist possible, anyhow). Hitler's regime was supported by the capitalist class in Germany (war means profit). The only reason other capitalist countries fought against the nazis was because he was decreasing their profits.

Before the US got involved, a lot of american businesses supported (secretly, until after the war) the nazis and fascists. The Nazis also donated 10,000,000 to the American elections of 1940.. though for whose side I can't recall. Whilst soviet russia agreed to being non-aggressive towards the nazis, capitalists actively supported them until it served against their interests (much like soviet russia..).

[PRC-UTE]

Spain was never mentioned, Hitler was.


I was referring to the Nazi Condor Legion who are credited with helping Franco win the war.


As to your other point I know what the Soviet Union lost in WW2, just pointing out that there were some other countries fighting Hitler as well.


True.

[Cal]

I was referring to the Nazi Condor Legion who are credited with helping Franco win the war.

Understood.


The only reason other capitalist countries fought against the nazis was because he was decreasing their profits.

That statement says a lot whilst saying nothing. what does 'capitalist countries' mean, all of the? and whose profits? everybodies?

And i'm sure the economy of Great Britain could've done without the war. Rationing carried on until the fifties, but then Im sure it was so some capitalist could have more food.

[NovelGentry]

Given the open-source movement and such, it seems there would be quite a few communist-like programmers at least, even if they don't quite know it.

Very true, despite the fact I've seen many open-source programmers argue they aren't communist for the life of them. But many still have a warped view of communism from the USSR.

Anyway, the movement itself is amazing, and it shows what happens when the means of production becomes fairly widely available and technologically advanced enough. Not to mention it shows the speed at which the new products of society can develop when they're unrestricted by profit goals, etc.

Overally it's probably one of the best examples we have. It'd be interesting to see someone develop it's relation to communism and the possibility of it as proof that communism is feasible. Really interesting. Until we have that ultimate development, it's at least a tool that represents portions of our arguments.

[encephalon]

That statement says a lot whilst saying nothing. what does 'capitalist countries' mean, all of the? and whose profits? everybodies?

And i'm sure the economy of Great Britain could've done without the war. Rationing carried on until the fifties, but then Im sure it was so some capitalist could have more food.

In the context of that paragraph, "capitalist countries" meant the allies, who were for the most part pro-capitalist. The capitalists in those countries that the nazis threatened to take over, however--like great britain--had the threat of "their property" and profits being taken by capitalists invested in the german war machine. I didn't mean anyone's profits in those respective countries, either, but mainly the ruling class. And Great Britain did everything they could to stay out of the war.. Hitler didn't even want to attack the British at first, nor did the British want to attack Germany..

I hope you don't believe that the allies went into the war because the nazis were doing something wrong, because I assure you that is not the case..


Very true, despite the fact I've seen many open-source programmers argue they aren't communist for the life of them. But many still have a warped view of communism from the USSR.

Anyway, the movement itself is amazing, and it shows what happens when the means of production becomes fairly widely available and technologically advanced enough. Not to mention it shows the speed at which the new products of society can develop when they're unrestricted by profit goals, etc.

Overally it's probably one of the best examples we have. It'd be interesting to see someone develop it's relation to communism and the possibility of it as proof that communism is feasible. Really interesting. Until we have that ultimate development, it's at least a tool that represents portions of our arguments.

Many, I think, just don't want it associated with communism regardless of how much the movements share in common..

I read an article a while back regarding open-source and communism, and how linux in particular was a good example of a near-communist ideal in terms of labor and social effort, particularly showing that it isn't profit, as capitalists argue, that drives motivation to create a quality product. If I can find it, I'll post it.

[Cal]

Hitler didn't even want to attack the British at first,

I agree with that, I believe Hitler said let me have europe and britain can have the world.


I hope you don't believe that the allies went into the war because the nazis were doing something wrong, because I assure you that is not the case..


That though, I'm not to keen on. I agee that there was a policy of appeasement, but to say that


like great britain--had the threat of "their property" and profits being taken by capitalists invested in the german war machine. I didn't mean anyone's profits in those respective countries, either, but mainly the ruling class.

is a it wide of the mark in fact it's in a different time zone to the mark.

[encephalon]

That though, I'm not to keen on. I agee that there was a policy of appeasement, but to say that...is a it wide of the mark in fact it's in a different time zone to the mark.

Have you read a lot of the WWII history? Very few nations cared what Hitler was doing.. he stated his core principles in Mein Kampf, very plainly, but before WWII the Jews as a race were hated all over Europe for millenia, not just in Germany.. nobody liked homosexuality, and they in fact castrated homosexuals in Britain at the time (even Alan Turing, who pretty much turned the tide of the war with his decryption of the Enigma). At this time, people believed much as the Nazis did (and, unfortunately, many people believe it today): different races belong in different countries, and the white race (according to the west) was at least culturally superior to all, if not physically and mentally. Though they probably didn't quite agree to the methods employed by the Nazis, many people of the time shared the same principles where race was concerned. Much of what the Nazis were doing was not even known, though it was stated in Mein Kampf to a tee. The activity of the nazis was primarily villianized only after the allies were attacked.

What else, in the history of capitalism, has war been about, if not property (i.e. capital)?

[Djehuti]

Originally posted by [email protected] 31 2004, 12:10 AM
I've noticed that people from every spectrum of wealth and education, at least in Ohio, seem to think communism and nazism are exactly the same thing. If they see a Marx pin, they ask if I'm a Nazi. Lenin? Nazi. Che? Nazi. I must admit, the ruling institutions have done a very good job at villianizing Communism, and associating it with Nazi terror and hatred. I'm guessing Europe doesn't have this same problem, but something similar may be there.

My question is this: as Communists, how are we to go about changing this false and harmful perception? Education is obviously the key, but in such situations in which you meet strangers (like school or work), you've little opportunity to even explain that they are two starkly different things, let alone explain the basics.

I once had a black man scream and call me white racist trash (among other things) because I was wearing a hammer and sickle.

I wonder how long it would take for the authorities to put a stop to communists passing out pamphlets in schools and universities as do churches and businesses already to counter misinformation.. any ideas?
Oh, the situation does not seems to bright in Ohio, its not anything near that here in Sweden. The media has lately grown extremly anti-communist (they have always been, but now more then ever before) and pumps out tons of anti-communist propaganda all the time. Ordinary people does not seem to be very much affected though, when I say that Iam a communist, some might ask "but...the Sovietunion...", but they are usually fast to understand when I explain what communism really is...its mostly the bourgeoisie and politicians that assumes that communism means dictatorship, whatever.

Anyway, you dont really have to talk about Marx, Lenin, communism, etc. I think its bether to go the other way around. Talk about their jobs and other every day issues,
make them talk about all kinds of problems, their stupid boss, whatever.
Start that way. And after that, try to make them see the connection between their trubbles in every-day life and capitalism as a whole. Do not put forth the marxist terminology yet and start babbling about the profitquota and the revolutionary dictatorship of the proletariat and abstract utopian ideals, etc. But you can start a discussion on what they think they can do in every day life, on their jobs for example
to make their situation bether, and that these small struggles can be more effective if they work together with others in the same situations. I dare to say that all workers are practising some form of class struggle, however small, in their everyday life. You should make them understand this, and help them develop these struggles, go together with the other workers at their jobs, etc.

Now, they might start to understand that their struggle is not just some individual thing that have nothing to do with others or capitalism as a whole. Now it might be time to put forth Marx, or other marxist litterature....Iam not talking about the agitatory works like the Manifesto or other "proletarians! Rise! Revolution! Yahooo!"-kind of works. But simply texts that they can relate to, you might talk about what is written in Marx Capital, and why that knowledge can help them in their every day life. Soon they might realize that they are not fighting for just bether conditions, but against capitalism as a whole. Then it might be time to suggest the building of some kind of workers councils, at the workplace or in the neigbourhood, etc were councious workers meet and plan different kind of actions, still not like "Lets storm the White House", but more like trading experiences with eachother and plan for more advanced kind of struggles, like strikes, organized sabotage, theft, etc. It is easier to steal from your work place when you know that everyone is doing it, and no one will rat. It might also be time to expand the activity, out from the imidiate area (the workplace, the neighbourhood, etc)...

First now you should accually start to talk about communism, and explain that what they are doing, is accually practising communism. Communism is nothing about the Soviet Union, or some far away utopian ideal. Its about fighting capital, and that fight is mainly in every day struggles. Fighting capital is not about waving hammer and sickle flags and large demonstrations; its about all those small things. Communism is alot of small babies that will eventually develop into one large giant.