"stalinists"

[redwinter]

hey, i see in the commie club thread that you guys say you "tolerate" stalinists, but didn't like them much. were you aware of the fact that Che was an unabashed Stalin admirer? He even used to sign his letters "Stalin II". This trot bias isn't really getting anyone anywhere.


redwinter
"A chicken in every pot, an icepick in every Trot"

[Roses in the Hospital]

Yes, we are aware of that fact and it has been used numerous times in debates over restrictions, CC entries etc. It's links to Che's ideology like this that I think was a factor in the name change, we can now no longer be critisised for actions that are unChe-like. It's worth remembering that Che lived in a time where the true extent of Stalin's crimes were not known, so if he'd had access to the information we have he may have rethought his position...

[Hiero]

Originally posted by Roses in the [email protected] 29 2004, 08:27 PM
It's worth remembering that Che lived in a time where the true extent of Stalin's crimes were not known, so if he'd had access to the information we have he may have rethought his position...
Bullshit. Che executed 700 prisoniers himself, he knew what he had to do and knew what Stalin did, what what Stalin had to do.

Stalins 'Crimes' if you think class war is a crime, were known of this time thanks to Trotsky and his followers. Im pretty sure Che would of heard the lies but wasnt affected by these trotskyite and bourgeoisie trash.

I dont understand why you people do not support Stalin, yet talk about killing the rich and collectivisation. All Stalin did was remove the filth from the peasants, the Kulaks and remove the rightiest oppurtunist, Che knew this and thats hwy he followed Stalin.

[h&s]

This trot bias isn't really getting anyone anywhere.

Why is it a 'Trot bias?' Why blame it on the Trots when the fact is that the majority of the left, Trot or not, hate Stalin?
Anyway, who said that everyone on this board actually like Che? I certainly don't.

[Archpremier]

Che admired Stalin because of his position. But to call Che a Stalinist (if that&#39;s what you&#39;re insinuating) is nothing short of idiocy in the absolute. The point is that he didn&#39;t ACT like Stalin, now did he? Stalin claimed to be loyal to Lenin, but he didn&#39;t follw too many of the examples he set. Likewise did Stalin claim to be a Marxist, and just look at all the progress he made in that direction. <_<

[T_SP]

And this boards fave pastime rears it&#39;s ugly head again&#33;&#33; If all else fails blame the Trots&#33;


Stalin was a murderer plain and simple&#33; He killed people who, oppossed him, his methods and his ideologies.

Redwinter get a fucking clue :angry: It&#39;s the mindless bollox that idiots like you spout that put people of leftwing politics&#33;
No-one here claims to support or even like Che so stop tarring everybody with the same brush and atleast back your arguments up with facts&#33;

[Bolshevist]

Originally posted by Roses in the [email protected] 29 2004, 09:27 AM
Yes, we are aware of that fact and it has been used numerous times in debates over restrictions, CC entries etc. It&#39;s links to Che&#39;s ideology like this that I think was a factor in the name change, we can now no longer be critisised for actions that are unChe-like. It&#39;s worth remembering that Che lived in a time where the true extent of Stalin&#39;s crimes were not known, so if he&#39;d had access to the information we have he may have rethought his position...
You must know, and remeber that when the proletarian state in Russia was founded, there was countless smear-campaigns from the reactionary Hearst-press (with mostly sources coming from Goebbels) that was aimed to spread fear around the US that if the USA did adopt a socialst agenda they would also suffer from these non-existant famines, massacres and such.

If you read newspapers at that time, you knew about these socalled famines and massacres. It didn&#39;t help that the Soviet state refutet these accusations over and over again.

[Saint-Just]

Originally posted by Roses in the [email protected] 29 2004, 09:27 AM
It&#39;s worth remembering that Che lived in a time where the true extent of Stalin&#39;s crimes were not known, so if he&#39;d had access to the information we have he may have rethought his position...
It is not worth saying that at the time Che lived the true extent of Stalin&#39;s crimes were not known. For example, the Ukranian famine was reported in Hearst&#39;s Chicago American in 1935. Certainly in the 50s there were many books written about the alleged crimes of Stalin and indeed the crimes of Lenin and Khrushchev. Following the 20th congress of the CPSU in 1956 where Khrushchev denounced a great deal of the policies of Joseph Stalin Che said:

"I have come to communism because of daddy Stalin and nobody must come and tell me that I mustn&#39;t read Stalin. I read him when it was very bad to read him. That was another time. And because I&#39;m not very bright, and a hard-headed person, I keep on reading him. Especially in this new period, now that it is worse to read him. Then, as well as now, I still find a Seri of things that are very good." ~Che Guevara

[Hiero]

Stalin was a murderer plain and simple&#33; He killed people who, oppossed him, his methods and his ideologies.

Isn&#39;t that the whole plan of communism, a part of revolution is to kill the people who oppose the working class and the party.

[Discarded Wobbly Pop]

Originally posted by [email protected] 29 2004, 08:11 AM
hey, i see in the commie club thread that you guys say you "tolerate" stalinists, but didn&#39;t like them much. were you aware of the fact that Che was an unabashed Stalin admirer? He even used to sign his letters "Stalin II". This trot bias isn&#39;t really getting anyone anywhere.


redwinter
"A chicken in every pot, an icepick in every Trot"
Look I&#39;m not a trotskyist, and I have to admit, years of growing up around capitalist propaganda, had me looking at Stalin as "evil" and even comparing him to Hitler even as recent as 2 years ago.

My major problem with Stalin is not neccesarily these supposed famines, or his beef with Trotsky. After forcing myself to study him, I&#39;ve decided that in his time he wasn&#39;t that bad of a guy (considering that the KKK we&#39;re alive and powerful in Canada and the States at the time).

What gets to me about Stalin, or Stalinists, is the supreme rightoesness that you find in religios fanatics, and religios leaders. A good example is the quote "RAF" has on his signature. Now when you go at them about the idea that people should have some freedom of speech, they claim the this is not aimed at socialists but only &#39;reactionaries&#39;. A good example of what bullshit that is, is Trotsky, why would he feel the need to kill a man with the same goals? Simple, Stalin is the one that is reactionary.

Under his rule, he created such a level of paranoia, that if you disliked your neighbour, you could report him, saying that he was talkin&#39; shit about uncle joe, thats all it wouls take, and the dude would be off to some gulag. A good example of socialism?

I don&#39;t think so.

[Wiesty]

Originally posted by Hiero+Dec 29 2004, 06:23 AM--> (Hiero @ Dec 29 2004, 06:23 AM)
Roses in the [email protected] 29 2004, 08:27 PM
It&#39;s worth remembering that Che lived in a time where the true extent of Stalin&#39;s crimes were not known, so if he&#39;d had access to the information we have he may have rethought his position...
Bullshit. Che executed 700 prisoniers himself, he knew what he had to do and knew what Stalin did, what what Stalin had to do.

Stalins &#39;Crimes&#39; if you think class war is a crime, were known of this time thanks to Trotsky and his followers. Im pretty sure Che would of heard the lies but wasnt affected by these trotskyite and bourgeoisie trash.

I dont understand why you people do not support Stalin, yet talk about killing the rich and collectivisation. All Stalin did was remove the filth from the peasants, the Kulaks and remove the rightiest oppurtunist, Che knew this and thats hwy he followed Stalin. [/b]
because he sent millions of innocent people to the gulags to be slaved and exectued.

[Cal]

Isn&#39;t that the whole plan of communism, a part of revolution is to kill the people who oppose the working class and the party

That proved a success with Stalin in the long term didn&#39;t it.

[Dysfunctional_Literate]

I don&#39;t like Stalinists. They ruin the fun for everyone. They are power hungry and are counter-productive to revolution. They would never let go of power to create a truly communist state (I prefer anarchist). They create classes by dividing resources unfairly giving too much to the party elite. They also do not believe in civil liberties. Stalinism is holding back the revolution. :angry:

[Edelweiss]

Originally posted by Chairman Mao+Dec 29 2004, 08:01 PM--> (Chairman Mao &#064; Dec 29 2004, 08:01 PM)
Roses in the [email protected] 29 2004, 09:27 AM
It&#39;s worth remembering that Che lived in a time where the true extent of Stalin&#39;s crimes were not known, so if he&#39;d had access to the information we have he may have rethought his position...
It is not worth saying that at the time Che lived the true extent of Stalin&#39;s crimes were not known. For example, the Ukranian famine was reported in Hearst&#39;s Chicago American in 1935. Certainly in the 50s there were many books written about the alleged crimes of Stalin and indeed the crimes of Lenin and Khrushchev. Following the 20th congress of the CPSU in 1956 where Khrushchev denounced a great deal of the policies of Joseph Stalin Che said:

"I have come to communism because of daddy Stalin and nobody must come and tell me that I mustn&#39;t read Stalin. I read him when it was very bad to read him. That was another time. And because I&#39;m not very bright, and a hard-headed person, I keep on reading him. Especially in this new period, now that it is worse to read him. Then, as well as now, I still find a Seri of things that are very good." ~Che Guevara [/b]
What does that quote proof? He kept on reading Stalin, so what? He also read Trotzky, and surely also found "things that are very good". He even spoke out against bans on Trotzky works in Cuba.
Che was not a "Stalinist", as he was not a Trotzkyist either.
But here&#39;s another interesting quote, which all Stalin kiddies use to ignore who claim Che to be a Stalinist:

it&#39;s not the cause of the revolution what is it about for me. Sure I never will have a very personal vision of the future, becuse in my own way, I&#39;m all at the same time: Christian, Marxist, Trotskyist, Maoist, but I&#39;m fighting for it that man one day will find justice and equality in comparison with their fellow men.

[Scottish_Militant]

Another PLP nutter, wouldn&#39;t worry about him, they are more like a cult than a party. They put up pictures of icepicks as political education.

[h&s]

redwinter
"A chicken in every pot, an icepick in every Trot"
You eitther stole that from one of those idiots at E-G, or you are from E-G.

[Anarchist Freedom]

Stalins actions where not justified this is a scenario where by all means does not apply.Is it not a little bit ubsured the number of all the people he murderd the people that starved under him sure we can say that in the cities people lived like kings but out in the country it was a hell. A man willing to execute his own people and kill half his military staff on the basis of paranoia is not a man we need to respect. Also redwinter that quote seems quite similar to something ive heard from those lStalinist morons from EG. Your an obvious Stalin supporter I can see but did the ends really justify the means????

[Hiero]

Your an obvious Stalin supporter I can see but did the ends really justify the means????

Who did Stalin kill?
Rightist, Revisionist, Kulaks, reactionary peasants, all who are enemies of communism?

But for alot of the purges this was in the control of the NKVD, people in the politburo where being arrested and some who survived these "purges" wives were arrested.

The famine was a large contribution of the Kulaks who tried to hide grain and told other peasants to burn there grain and kill their livestock to stop collectivisation.

Apart from that, I dont get it when so many people here talk about war against these same people types of people. I cant understand pacifist, social democrats and anarchist not supporting Stalin.