who is pro-palestinian here? - and why?

[DORRI]

i myself!
because -briefly- they are oppressed.

[Reuben]

ME, like you I will be breif, but I am definitely support a nation of people made into refugees simply because of their ethnic background.

[Xvall]

I guess.. Sorta.. I support the people on both sides.. I hate Sharon and the terrorists though..

[Rob]

I'm pro Palestinian because they are oppressed and villified by a state without any justification for its actions and a flawed justification for they way in which it exists.

(Edited by Rob at 1:57 am on June 29, 2002)

[Dhul Fiqar]

I am pro-Palestinian for reasons that should be obvious to anyone with half a mind, half a heart, and access to non-zionist information sources. Free Palestine!

--- G. Raven

[Bakunjin]

I am pro-palestinian... beacuse they are under occupation
... I don't want to explain historical reasons for my choice...

[hizballah]

i'm proooooooooooooooo-palestinian because they r the original owners of the land and because of these reasons:
http://www.aljareemah.org/crime.htm


(Edited by hizballah at 6:22 pm on June 30, 2002)

[Michael De Panama]

Fuck Palestine. Fuck Israel.
Communists shouldn't believe in any sort of land ownership.

[Bakunjin]

... That is probably why you have a flag as an avatar...
Whatever...

[Anonymous]

Present. Because Palestine belongs to the Palestinians.

[kingbee]

i do for a million reasons, the main one being- you cannot take over someones land to make a nation, and move millions out of their homeland, even if you are supported by america

[Pepo]

Because Palestina has the right to be a state.
Because they should have the right to defende their selfs.
Because they are opressed by Israel.
Because they are a culture.
Because they belong to that land.
Because they are human.
Because...Because...

[RAM]

Pro Palestine becuase Israle has no right ot land they live in refuge camps and the only fun thing to do is blow themselves up or getting a bad deal!

[deimos]

iam pro israel because:

Because Palestina has the right to be a state.
Because they should have the right to defende their selfs.
Because they are opressed by Israel.
Because they are a culture.
Because they belong to that land.
Because they are human.

[Mazdak]

Pro palestinians- however suicide bombing isnt helping their image

[nvader]

I dont support either of there causes, however, terrorism wont get them what they want. Im new to the boards, so lets not flame me to harsh as i try to learn from you guys

[LeonardoDaVinci]

I'm pro-palestinians because I am with justice. Oh yeah..NVADER, terrorism is a very tricky (and overused) term that I would try to avoid using, not because I support suicide bombings, but because anyone who does not acquiesce to the demands of all mighty america nowadays is a terrorist.

[abstractmentality]

i am pro-palestinian because of the occupation, because of the curfews imposed on them, and ....

palestinechronicle (http://www.palestinechronicle.com)

[Conghaileach]

I am pro-Palestinian because they have been forced out of their homes simply because the Israelis claim to have some kind of Godly right to the land.

I am pro-Palestinian because they are oppressed, harassed, humiliated, persecuted and discriminated against on a daily basis.

[Anonymous]

ME!!! because the israelits those blasted jews (no ofenso to non-israelits jews!) just like to killinocent palestinians! blasting their homes,theyr familys and their future! they are making a new aphartheid! a new blody apharteid that separates israelits from palestinians! ANd dont come with bulshit like: "the palestinians are fanatics and they are all terrorists" becauseit isnt true! Israel should join with pakestine to fight terrorim instead of killing them,its like in Spain the terrorist group called ETA, lets imagin one of their activists live in the same street that i live! (i am not Spanish though!) and the police instead of arrest that person blasts the hole street and kills and arrests all the people that live in that street! well thew same is happening in pallestine! the terrorists arent sopurted by the people! well right now some palistinians may suport them but theyhave some rights by doingthat cause whatisrael is doing has no excuse!

[Mazdak]

ad what makes saying blastedd jews different from fucking jews(as lenin said)???? I know you aren't anti semiticbut how come Lenin is labeled a nazi for saying something very similar to that????

I agree with you though

[Michael De Panama]

Quote: from Bakunjin on 12:34 am on July 1, 2002
... That is probably why you have a flag as an avatar...
Whatever...

A flag doesn't necessarily represent nationalism or land ownership. It represents my background. I don't advocate the ownership of land in Panama simply because I have a Panamanian flag.

[nvader]

by terrorism i mean the killing of civilians in an attempt to use fear to reach a goal, not uprising against america :)

[Reuben]

MMazdaak, I agree with The Anarchist as well but not with the use of the term Jews. If he he had said "The zimbabweans those blasted blacks..." I would not find it acceptable.


SImilarly Lenin, who has a history of anti-semitism, who abused one non-jewish comrade by saying "Why dont you fuck off with all your jewish freinds" and who has constantly said that jJEwsihave to take some responsibility fotr the hholocaust, gets callled an racist for saying those fucking jews as he woud for saying those fucking blacks.

The point is that he was attacking people with reference, not to their politics, but with reference to their ethnicity.

THA ANARCHIST, rather than adding to the end of your snentences "no offence..", you might like to think more carefully about the nature of your sentences so tht you dont have to attempt to mitigate them afterwards.

[Conghaileach]

Didn't Lenin die in 1924, before the Holocaust?

Fuck, sorry, I haven't read this thread in a while - and thought Reuben was referring to Vladimir Lenin. D'oh!

(Edited by CiaranB at 2:35 pm on July 4, 2002)

[Reuben]

RFOLMAO

[Beyond Good and Evil]

I dont support either group. It's very easy (and sometimes, stylish) to support the palestinians on the ground that it was their land first, or that theyre being oppressed. Doesnt mean its right.

Does either of these groups have a right to the land? Land that was their thousands of years before they existed, and will be there long after their bones and bleached white by the sun? Does higher casualties equate justification? No, it's just revenge. Does foreign aid make Isriel right? No, its arbitrary human behavior.

The bottom line is that both of these groups are bourgeois nationalists being pushed to conflict by their fundementalist right-wing elements.

There is very rarely a clearly right thing in real life, and there deffinatly isnt in the Isriel/Palestine conflict. If Palestinians were in control then theyd be doing the same thing to the Jewish population, and groups like Hamas would be oppressing women and spreading their ideological hate. Believing that they would take the moral high-road if given the chance for revenge is delusional self-justification to take a side.

I side with neither faction, those who would murder innocents and ruin lives for land or nationalism. I sympathize with the people whose lives are being lost to tanks and suicide bombers. To those whose loved ones have been turned into a statistic to justify one sides "revenge" killing of the other. For those whose lives have been shattered by people fighting over trivial things. Those are the ones my heart cries for.

[Conghaileach]

from Beyond Good and Evil
I dont support either group. It's very easy (and sometimes, stylish) to support the palestinians on the ground that it was their land first, or that theyre being oppressed. Doesnt mean its right.

You can support the cause but not the methods.


The bottom line is that both of these groups are bourgeois nationalists being pushed to conflict by their fundementalist right-wing elements.

Actually, there are two (that I'm aware of) left-wing parties in Palestine. Both enjoy popular support.

[deimos]

beyond good and evil,
how would you feel, if you're house was destroyed by another ethnic group that thinks that they have the right to live their becasue its the will of god?!would u fight?would u have the same opinion?

[AladdinSane]

Quote: from hizballah on 3:17 am on July 1, 2002
i'm proooooooooooooooo-palestinian because they r the original owners of the land and because of these reasons:
http://www.aljareemah.org/crime.htm


(Edited by hizballah at 6:22 pm on June 30, 2002)


It's true; the land did originally belong to the Palenstinians. Pro-palestinian? Not I. I'd rather consider myself anti-Zionist. Was it not apparent to the UN 60-some years ago that just *poof!* "There's a country!" didn't make much sense?

[Je suis Babar]

Palestine didn't exist prior to 1967 either.

[Beyond Good and Evil]

CiaranB,
You can support the cause and ignore the methods of the right-wing militants, but what happens when you finally form a counrty and those elements win popular support? I'll admit I know next to nothing about the relative support of the Palestinian factions, but in everyother counrty where there has been a security scare from terrorism or invasion, the right wing has gotten huge support. In Palestine thats Hamas, in Israel thats Likud. These, unfortunatly, are the elements that are most vocal and are able to sway the populace to escelation. Again, I havent heard much of the left in Palestine, but the left in Israel is very weak.

deimos,
As I said before, the people being slaughtered by gunmen and soilders are the ones I sympathize with. If my house was destroyed by someone claiming Gods will? Yes, I would be upset, almost as much as if another religous sect used it as reason to keep the blood flowing. Would I fight? Hmmm, If my family or friends, someone i loved was in direct danger, then Id do all i could, but i wouldnt follow the nationalists or the religous hate-preachers.

One death doesnt justify another. The people in the refugee camps getting tred on by Isreali tanks, and those people geting blown up in their markets, theyre the victems. Their the ones whose lives are being lost in theis chaotic swirl of hatred and greed. Dont ask me to support religous militants, whatever nation they murder for. Their twisted cause disgusts me, as it should any decent human being.

[death b4 dishonour]

I support them somewhat, and i agree that they need to get attention to thier cause and that terrorism is sometimes a necessary element, but they shouldnt just target civilians. That is my only problem with them.

[Conghaileach]

The problem is that when the current intifada started, there was proper guerrilla fighting by the Palestinians. However, Israeli repression of the Palestinians got so bad that they left these people with no otehr option but to strap bombs to themselves.

Peaceful protests by Palestinians have been shot off the streets by Israeli snipers. Thee people are desparate, and when people get desparate they will try anything.

[Reuben]

thing is that suicide bombing is a sign of weakness. Idont mean this in a derogatory way and it is not a comment on the moral strength of the Palestinians, but on their absolute despair, of absulote helplessness against an occuppation which,m simply bec ause of their ethnicity forces them to live lives with no opportunities that we take granted, that arbitarily destroys their houses, which allows settlers to run their sewage into their rivers.

I do not support suicide bombing and I hate Hamas and their extreme right fundamentalist ageda, but it is a myth that they are in all cases a product of people driven by some kind of "religious fanatiscism". vTo be fair they wouldnt have to be. A number of the bombers have been secular people.

[Conghaileach]

Weren't the Hamas orginally set up by the Israelis to discredit the Palestinian struggle, but later got fund sfrom Iran and purged the Israeli spies within?

Eh, it's probably another one of those conspiracy theories.

[Reuben]

as far as I know they were not set up by the israelies but have been aided and assisted as a counterweight to the PLO

[peaccenicked]

http://www.cpgb.org.uk/worker/432/aggregate.html
Here it says communists are against all nationalism, I find this too simplistic as the oppressed at first find their only way to resist through a national identity. How can you have equality of nationhood without a national identity. Nationalism is only terrible when it is the putting the interests of a single country above others.

[Josip Broz Tito]

I am. They (Israeli and Americans) are killing them every fucking day.

[Conghaileach]

from Je suis Babar
Palestine didn't exist prior to 1967 either.

Palestine still doesn't really exist. It's yet to granted statehood.

[Mazdak]

No, palestine was part of
1. Canaan/philistine land
2. Persian/Roman land
3. Islamic imperial land
4 Ottoman land
5. British land
6. throughout most of its history this land belonged to other besides the jews. And why would there be a palestine?? it was always part of a large empire.

[Beyond Good and Evil]

Quote: from Mazdak on 4:20 am on July 9, 2002
why would there be a palestine?? it was always part of a large empire.

Just because some imperialist explorer comes by and stakes a flag doesnt mean its their land, nor does having a army. Its just land, and its ownership is reletive to your perspective. Columbus thought he "discovered" America, but do you think the Indians saw it the same way? Same with the Middle East, both side thinks it's their land, and citing history isnt going to sway their opinions cuz they both have history to support their views.

[Reuben]

regardless of whether palestine was historically a nation, the nt is that the last 55 yrears have provven that a state is needed to represent the specific interests of Palestinians.

This was remember, the main argument for Israel...

Towards a palestinian state,

Reuben