North of Ireland

[American_Trotskyist]

Will the liberation of the workers come from a Nationalist and then Socialist Revolution? Or will there need to be a pure Socialist revolution in Ireland and Britain and then have elections for the new state? What is the solution?

[RedAnarchist]

What i think needs to happen is -

A Revolution in Northern Ireland and the Republic to create a 32-County Socialist Republic. All British forces to be expelled.

A Revolution in England, Wales and Scotland to create a Socialist Republic in Britain.

[American_Trotskyist]

Alright, to play the devil's advicate, the nationalism on both sides has furthered the bosses cause in dividing the workers. Any thoughts?

[Pawn Power]

What is the solution?
Revolution

yay i finally got to use it :lol:

[Cal]

A Revolution in Northern Ireland and the Republic to create a 32-County Socialist Republic. All British forces to be expelled.

A popular (all encompassing) revolution in Ireland, especially Northern Ireland is so far away it is unthinkable, before even the foundations for any kind of socialist movement can take place the area needs to become united, the two sides still dislike each other intensley and although strides are being made, there could not be any popular movement.

The Republic is also still heavily interdependent with the catholic church, whch is a highly respected institution which would oppose ant kind of revolutionary socialist movement.

Let's be reallistic, first worry about ending the paramilitary activiies and we'll go from there. whilst the workers are fighting and distrustful of each other there's very little that can be done.

[PRC-UTE]

I agree with what XPhile said. The platform I support is for National Liberation and Socialist Revolution. You can't ignore that there is an occupation going on, neither can we think that smashing the British state alone will solve all the problems in the north.

Furthermore, a defeat in their colony would be a great shock to the British system, one that could really help the working classes in Britain.


Let's be reallistic, first worry about ending the paramilitary activiies and we'll go from there. whilst the workers are fighting and distrustful of each other there's very little that can be done.

The Irish people, especially the communities in the north, were never very republican or paramilitary, actually. The found themselves under constant attack from loyalist pogroms every decade of the nothern state's existence. In the late sixties the civil rights movement, which aimed to reform, not destory the northern state, was smashed. I'm sure you know about Bloody Sunday, internment camps, and the peaceful marches that were attacked. 'Republican' violence was for the most part just a reaction to being attacked.

So, point is, there will always be paramilitaries around as long as their is an occupation and abuse from the loyalist side.

Especially when you have the Brits arming their side, the Loyalists. After all, they started it.

The way forward is to support and empower working class communities in the north. Most of the violence the past few years have not been the sporadic campaigns of loyalists or diehard republicans; it's been nationalist working class communities fighting back against the Brits and the pigs when they invade and attack their community.

[The Feral Underclass]

Originally posted by [email protected] 27 2004, 08:19 PM
A Revolution in Northern Ireland and the Republic to create a 32-County Socialist Republic. All British forces to be expelled.

A Revolution in England, Wales and Scotland to create a Socialist Republic in Britain.
As a concession or as an actual objective?

[Cal]

The Irish people, especially the communities in the north, were never very republican or paramilitary, actually. The found themselves under constant attack from loyalist pogroms every decade of the nothern state's existence. In the late sixties the civil rights movement, which aimed to reform, not destory the northern state, was smashed. I'm sure you know about Bloody Sunday, internment camps, and the peaceful marches that were attacked. 'Republican' violence was for the most part just a reaction to being attacked.

So, point is, there will always be paramilitaries around as long as their is an occupation and abuse from the loyalist side.

Especially when you have the Brits arming their side, the Loyalists. After all, they started it.

After spending the first 18 years of my life in said area, I cannot agree with this, I say this with the highest of respect as I know we have agreed on issues in the past but this sounds like the well tread line, I can assure you that there are very strong feelings still on both sides and they continue and will until a peace deal is reached and a period of peaceful self governance is lived out.

The Brits haven't armed anybody bar the RUC which is now the Police Force of Northern Ireland. During the period where British troops where stationed inNorthern Ireland it was just a dangerous for a troop to be in a loyalist area as it was in a republican area. This generation will never know true peace and reconciliation, the hope is in the children who will know the assembly ad hopefully Paisley and Adams permitting an all encompassing government for Northern ireland.

[PRC-UTE]

After spending the first 18 years of my life in said area, I cannot agree with this, I say this with the highest of respect as I know we have agreed on issues in the past but this sounds like the well tread line, I can assure you that there are very strong feelings still on both sides and they continue and will until a peace deal is reached and a period of peaceful self governance is lived out.


I didn't mean that there weren't strong feelings on the nationalist side. What I meant was, historically the north was not very republican. It was one of the only places James Connolly failed to organise in; Dev did poorly there. I think I once heard Gerry Adams once boasted that he was the first republican elected to his area.

The armed struggle by republicans, especially the Provisionals, was largely a result of the failed civil rights campaign. When nationalist areas burned, the PIRA 'arose from the ashes of '69.' Both the Stickies and the IRSP wanted to introduce a class analysis to the struggle, but unfortunatley the simple militarism of the Provos won out.


The Brits haven't armed anybody bar the RUC which is now the Police Force of Northern Ireland.

That's not so; there are many instances of the Brits funding and giving information and weapons to loyalists. The UDA for instance. Tyrone was a killing field because so many Shinners and their families were murdered by loyalist death squads given intel by the brits. I heard someone is writing a book about the massacres against the nationalist people in Tyrone called 'Britain's jihad'.

It serves a very useful function for the Brits: arm the loyalists to murder your enemies. Deny responsibility, then turn to the world, especially America, and claim that you are nuetral and would like to see the Irish savages get along. 'If only we could teach them peace' and the like. :lol: It's the standard racist caricature that the Brits have used all along, their claim that the Irish can't govern themselves without the firm hand of Britannia and yankee dollars.

I'm actually surprised to hear you doubt this, as their are so many documented instances of collusion between brits and loyalists. Here's a few sources for you:

From the World Socialist Website: Libel case focuses on collusion between security forces and Loyalist paramilitaries in northern Ireland (http://www.wsws.org/articles/2000/jan2000/eire-j29.shtml)

Here is a report by a Canadian judge: The British state organises terrorism in Ireland (http://www.internationalism.org/wr/274_collusion.htm)

State sponsored terror (http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Senate/1922/)

This site is full of info, Relatives for Justice (http://www.relativesforjustice.com/)

From Sinn Fein's site:
Collusion: British Military Intelligence and Brian Nelson (http://sinnfein.ie/peace/document/109/8)


During the period where British troops where stationed inNorthern Ireland it was just a dangerous for a troop to be in a loyalist area as it was in a republican area.

Now that's misleading. Irish Republicans killed over 800 members of the Crown forces (not sure how that breaks down to soldiers though) and loyalists didn't achieve any body count close to that against Crown forces. They only fought with soldiers when they felt 'betrayed'.


This generation will never know true peace and reconciliation, the hope is in the children who will know the assembly ad hopefully Paisley and Adams permitting an all encompassing government for Northern ireland.

Won't happen for the next generation. The Brits don't want that, the GFA is only going to make the six counties more sectarian and divided. Violence between the forces of the Crown and local residents is common place. There are as many soldiers in the six counties as there was during the height of the war.

The cause of war is not yet removed. We should not treat the current republican ceasefires as any more permanent than the last campaign was.

[Cal]

Points are taken, thanks for the links.

Just on a seperate point I am of the opinion that the UK and Irish government are determined to make this peace work I think the opposition to this powere sharing which I concede is large comes from within those who will represent the people in the assembly.

[PRC-UTE]

Just on a seperate point I am of the opinion that the UK and Irish government are determined to make this peace work I think the opposition to this powere sharing which I concede is large comes from within those who will represent the people in the assembly.

The US/UK/FS governments all want stability, but I don't believe lasting peace will be attainable. I don't think the six will ever be as bad as it once was either.


Points are taken, thanks for the links.

;)

[Erin Go Braugh]

I believe N. Ireland should defect from the U.K. (to Ireland) and Wales and Scotland should declare independence from the UK.
Or at least N. Ireland joins Ireland, but I believe Wales has voted for Independence multiple times. Scotland might have too. The UK (damn them, they are still so very imperialist) have ignored them and are clinging on to colonialism.

[Invader Zim]

I have a better solution world wide revolution and end national identity period.

nationality should not be an issue... except when the footballs on. :D

As for your remarkably inaccurate view of Welsh politics: -

PARTY CONST REGN +/- TOT
LAB 30 0 2 30
PC 5 7 -5 12
CON 1 10 2 11
LD 3 3 0 6
OTH 1 0 1 1

The election results,
Lab = labour
PC = plaid Cymru
CON = conservative
LD = Liberal democrats


As you can see Labour won by a significant amount getting 30 of 40 possible seats.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/in_depth/uk_pol...2003/vote_2003/ (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/in_depth/uk_politics/2003/vote_2003/)

Wales has been voting in this manner for decades. Wales is a traditional labour strong hold and always has been, and labour are not pro-welsh indepedance, they are however pro devolution and Welsh assebly.

Welsh assembly election Results: -

http://www.election.demon.co.uk/wales.html

As you can see the party of Wales only did really well in the traditional Welsh speaking areas, places like Ceredigion, Carmarthen etc, generally places in the reletively unpopulated Mid west and north west (the old principality), where as the cities, valleys and Marches voted Labour by a huge amount. By far the majority voted Labour, though PC is a clear second.

I hope that next election they do far better, because I think the welsh assembly should be far more powerful , and will do a lot more for the welsh language and people than labour ever will.

Living in Wales and having lots of Welsh family (indeed having a Welsh parent) I get the impression that the majority of people want the economic security of the UK, and cultural and social independance of wales at the same time, while be very working class oriented.

[PRC-UTE]

Scotland did vote for independence, but the vote had to be overwhelming and not a simple majority. The vote went 51% pro-independenc I believe, I think ten years ago.

In Wales, actual Republicans are not a very big group like in Ireland or parts of Scotland. Nationalists are a significant group, just as Home Rulers have long been in Ireland.

[Invader Zim]

Originally posted by [email protected] 9 2005, 12:08 AM
Scotland did vote for independence, but the vote had to be overwhelming and not a simple majority. The vote went 51% pro-independenc I believe, I think ten years ago.

In Wales, actual Republicans are not a very big group like in Ireland or parts of Scotland. Nationalists are a significant group, just as Home Rulers have long been in Ireland.
Scotland did vote for independence, but the vote had to be overwhelming and not a simple majority. The vote went 51% pro-independenc I believe, I think ten years ago.


I'll take your word for it. My only point of interest really was with Wales in this thread (which given the chanse I would natter on about all day :P ). Like I said at the moment PC is only a reletivly small party, in that they only achieved a modest number of seats, instead of the disproportionatly large number of Labour seats.


In Wales, actual Republicans are not a very big group like in Ireland or parts of Scotland. Nationalists are a significant group, just as Home Rulers have long been in Ireland.

Whats that, mate? Not quite sure I follow... Not keeping up to well today. :P

[Elmo]

The situation in wales is being over complicated. It is an English princapality and a politcial war shall never be won, but there is no where near enough active communist movement within Wales to pull of a succseful "non-passive" revolution. They need to know that there non existant state of independence is theres by right. But only by gathering a bigger mass of Welsh revolutionaries can this objective be obtained, and with just over a population of 2 million the possible number in reality isnt lookin overly hopeful.