I need understanding

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

how are they different from the people they're fighting I mean after listening to a band called bright eyes(moderate left leaning emo band) they called out both extremes as judgemental....

...I see the their point I wouldnt want judged....

....please help me get some understanding

[redstar2000]

Historically, it's been the "extremists" who actually change things...for the better or for the worse.

And there's no escaping "being judged"...it's one of the things that humans are really good at...or at least really enjoy doing. :lol:

:redstar2000:

The Redstar2000 Papers (http://www.redstar2000papers.fightcapitalism.net)
A site about communist ideas

[Guest1]

Work to take it all, and you may get it, or a part of it. Work to take a part and you may get it, or none at all.

Which do you prefer?

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

what I need is to understand if any what is the difference...
...my dad was a community organiser in chicago until about the time I was born at which point he became a civil rights attorney and in all his years he despised the ultra-left because they pushed people away from the movement...
....the only logical choice in my eyes is to rebuild the IWW....they still hold lefty ideology and what better way to reach the proletariat than through unions!


...am I missing some thing?

[Karl Marx's Camel]

how are they different from the people they're fighting I mean after listening to a band called bright eyes(moderate left leaning emo band) they called out both extremes as judgemental....

What do you mean when you say "both extremes"?

Do you mean communists and socialists (on the left of the spectrum), and for example conservatives and libertarians (on the right)?

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

I am talking talking about communists and fascists they both seem pretty authoritarian to me

[flyby]

I think the real question is "what will it take?"

Some people say "I don't like extremes."

But you really have to look at the world we live in and ask "what will it take to end oppression and exploitation?"

It will take radical changes -- and by "radical" i mean in the literal sense of "changes that go to the root of things" (radical comes from the latin word for root.)

And, if you can see how fucked up the world (and capitalism) are, but then DON"T choose to seriously do what it takes, then in that sense (and to that degree) you have become accepting of the system.

It will take radical ruptures in property relations and in ideas to end oppression (as Marx said in the ending of his Manifesto.) It will take "springing society in the air" and uprooting social relations, property relations, ideas and classes.

And this cannot be done piecemeal -- because the current system maintains its integrity, its cohesion by armed force. Only a change of power, and the initiation of a radically new social system (socialism transforming itself into communism) has a hope of making real change.

Lenin said "without power, all else is illusion."

A short senstence, but worth thinking about deeply.

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

yeah but communism doesint help everywhere. It does NOT allow enough personal freedoms

[Guest1]

Because the freedom to oppress another is an integral part of our human rights.

Dude, what are you talking about?

[flyby]

i think that communism is a future society of individuality, but not individualism.

There will be great creative and personal "freedom" to do many things -- but no personal or legal freedom to exploit.

Fundamentally, tho, you can't look at society in terms of just "how does it treat me?" -- because we are grappling with the survival of billions of people and the reversal of great historic injustices.

Look at the tidal wave in the Indian Ocean, and what it shows about the lopsidedness of the imperialist world (where people there have no phones for warning, and not equipment to rebuild etc.)!

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

youre fucking crazy

[flyby]

Originally posted by [email protected] 29 2004, 12:27 AM
youre fucking crazy
cuz?

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

did I say it was a bad thing, or a good thing either?...

...I mean I am crazy too

[Guest1]

Seriously, what personal freedoms does Communism take away petey?

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

Originally posted by Che y [email protected] 30 2004, 05:19 PM
Seriously, what personal freedoms does Communism take away petey?
speach, religion, press

[Guest1]

A stateless society that doesn't allow you to shove your religion down people's throats, or use the community's resources to advocate its destruction is taking your personal freedoms away? :huh:

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

Originally posted by Che y [email protected] 30 2004, 05:30 PM
A stateless society that doesn't allow you to shove your religion down people's throats, or use the community's resources to advocate its destruction is taking your personal freedoms away? :huh:
but should people be aloud to practice thier religion?

[STI]

In the privacy of their own dark smelly basements, yes. In public? No. In front of children? Hell no!

[flyby]

religion (and other ideas emerging from class society) can't be abolished through suppression.

There has to be sense of turmoil and change, of debate and exploration. And in that context communists (who are atheists) will struggle for atheism, and other people have to be able to struggle for (and over) their own views.

[Djehuti]

"speach"

Eh...what? Ofcource we should have freedom of speach in a communist society.
Otherwise we kill progress.

"religion"

Probably religion will fade a way due time, or atleast to some extent,
but there wont be like "hey you fucking christian, stop praying or we kill you".
Ofcource people should be able to worship whatever diety they wish, so long as they dont force it upon others in any way. Freedom of religion? Yes. Total secularisation? Yes.

"press"

If free press = Private press, a few cooperations control the whole damn media, then no. Todays free press is a joke. Sure, I have the freedom to start a damn newspaper,
but I have no chanse in hell to reach out to anyone in anyway near the extent of the big 200 years old bourgeoise controlled news-papers, if you know what i'm saying.
But I see no reason to why you should not be able to write a new paper of you so wish, in a communist society.

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

okay I can see where you're coming from