How does X-mas work?

[ahhh_money_is_comfort]

Just wondoring. X-mas is a religious holiday. How does that work under communist doctrine? What would be different? Is anything different? If your in consumer market, you work very hard this time of year. The factory people on through the supply chain, down to the cash registers; everyone works really hard.

Of course there are no cash registers. So how does it work? Do I just go somewhere and take what I want? I want to give my nieces and newphews the most labor intensive and material rare goods. Will there be a shortage? I think the kids deserve the best I can get for them. If it will be worth lots of labor and material and I can just have it, what the heck. I'll just take it.

[thorgar]

You assume that christmas is a religious holiday. Christmas as we know it exists solely as a capitalist vehicle under the guise of a religious holiday. Jews celebrate the winter solstice with chanakuh, christians with the observance of the birth of Christ and capitalists with free for all marketing. Just as pagan rituals were incorporated into the catholic observance of the solstice, so have capitalist rituals been blended with christian. It has become seamless. Of course communists won't celebrate christmas.

[ahhh_money_is_comfort]

Originally posted by [email protected] 25 2004, 03:46 PM
You assume that christmas is a religious holiday. Christmas as we know it exists solely as a capitalist vehicle under the guise of a religious holiday. Jews celebrate the winter solstice with chanakuh, christians with the observance of the birth of Christ and capitalists with free for all marketing. Just as pagan rituals were incorporated into the catholic observance of the solstice, so have capitalist rituals been blended with christian. It has become seamless. Of course communists won't celebrate christmas.
You mean x-mas is abolished? Or x-mas not celebrated? What if I want to? Do I still get to celebrate x-mas under communist doctrine?

[Bolshevist]

What would prevent you from celebrating christmas under communism?

[ahhh_money_is_comfort]

Originally posted by [email protected] 25 2004, 07:06 PM
What would prevent you from celebrating christmas under communism?
Something I heard on the street about communism and religion I suppose.

Anywhoo can you help? Please describe the details no matter how inane you think they are. As you can guess I really don't know how this is going to work.

[Hate Is Art]

Christmas as a religious festival and Christmas as a tradition have become completly seperate now.

You can celebrate things "christmas tradition" means under Communism - family, dinners, tree's and presents. Celebrating the birth of our lord and saviour Jesus Christ son of the one true god is ridiculous . The religious side of Christmas is almost dead so by the time Communism has been achieved it will be very simple and would just stop happening.

We can carry on traditions though, I don't see a problem with that.

[synthesis]

Christmas will be banned, and anyone who tries to celebrate it will have their vital organs methodically removed after snipping off their digits with rusty scissors. After they die, everyone within their immediate family will be burned at the stake and distant relatives will receive a hundred lashings.

Are you happy now?

[ahhh_money_is_comfort]

Originally posted by [email protected] 25 2004, 08:58 PM
Christmas will be banned, and anyone who tries to celebrate it will have their vital organs methodically removed after snipping off their digits with rusty scissors. After they die, everyone within their immediate family will be burned at the stake and distant relatives will receive a hundred lashings.

Are you happy now?
Does not sound to me like communist are anymore moral or ethical. Looks like to me if they believe like you do, they are no more superior to capitalist. I'm sure if you ask the millions of Christians world wide if they like that attitude and if your in power, that will not sound like any workers paradise to me.

[ahhh_money_is_comfort]

Originally posted by Digital [email protected] 25 2004, 07:29 PM
Christmas as a religious festival and Christmas as a tradition have become completly seperate now.

You can celebrate things "christmas tradition" means under Communism - family, dinners, tree's and presents. Celebrating the birth of our lord and saviour Jesus Christ son of the one true god is ridiculous . The religious side of Christmas is almost dead so by the time Communism has been achieved it will be very simple and would just stop happening.

We can carry on traditions though, I don't see a problem with that.
Religion may be dead in your world were Mr. Digital is in the center of it, but there are many Christians around to world who have a very strong faith. I hope your belittlement of the holiday will not extend to the people. If it does and communist think the same, that is no workers paradise.

[synthesis]

1. We aren't trying to create a "paradise", or a "utopia." That is something capitalist propagandists have attributed to us. We are simply creating a world without wage-slavery. That is all.

2. "Millions"? More like billions. Christianity is quite the wide-spread plague.

3. You weren't actually taking me seriously, were you?

[Hate Is Art]

Aye in todays world yes, but by the time revolution is going to come about I'm sure that religion won't be so rampant anymore.

[Guerrilla22]

Fuck Christmas, the holiday is based on the celebration of materialism and unregulated commerce.

[Elect Marx]

Originally posted by Digital [email protected] 25 2004, 10:17 PM
Aye in todays world yes, but by the time revolution is going to come about I'm sure that religion won't be so rampant anymore.
This seems to be the trend. The religious significance seems to be phasing out. Christmas is just a patch-work of religious celebrations anyway.

Many historians believe Christ wasn't born on the 25th due to the sources they have.

Christmas is purly a religious/cultural fucade and if people want to celibrate with their family/friends, that part is fine with me.

[Osman Ghazi]

I doubt that it would be called christmas considering it contains the word christ. However, just as christmas replaced saturnalia, so too will christmas be superceded by another holiday. I mean, people need to relax, after all.


Many historians believe Christ wasn't born on the 25th due to the sources they have.


Yes, Jesus just happened to be born on Saturnalia. They didn't make it up, honest. :D

As to the decline of religion, unfortunately the believers still outnumber us by a long shot. However, their numbers are dwindling every day.

Very few people that I know believe in traditional religous thought. Of the religious people I know, they tend to be of the type that has their own 'personal relationship' with God.

To be sure, the age of the religion racket is coming to an end, though I doubt we ourselves will see it.

[thorgar]

Originally posted by [email protected] 25 2004, 04:19 PM
You mean x-mas is abolished? Or x-mas not celebrated? What if I want to? Do I still get to celebrate x-mas under communist doctrine?
[QUOTE]
I think Christmas would be abolished . The reason being that it would be portrayed as a capitalist holiday. You could celebrate it as long as you don't mind a visit from the secret police. :D

[redstar2000]

All religious holidays ("holy days") would be abolished, of course.

That is, they would have no public significance -- what people did privately would be up to them.

:redstar2000:

The Redstar2000 Papers (http://www.redstar2000papers.fightcapitalism.net)
A site about communist ideas

[Elect Marx]

Originally posted by [email protected] 26 2004, 04:44 AM
All religious holidays ("holy days") would be abolished, of course.

That is, they would have no public significance -- what people did privately would be up to them.

:redstar2000:

The Redstar2000 Papers (http://www.redstar2000papers.fightcapitalism.net)
A site about communist ideas
I agree that there would be no institution promoting or enstating Christmas. Is that what you mean by abolished? I also agree with prior statements that the name Christmas will ultimatly phase out and in a communist society it may very well be called "happy gathering anual celibration," or something to that effect... maybe some better name even.

[Palmares]

Christmas and all pertaining to it would have no public recognition (as redstar2000 said), but that isn't to say that individuals cannot celebrate it.

In thoery, at the very least the capitalisitic elements to Christmas (i.e. consumerism) will be withered away, and possibly as religion is withered away (no longer being neccessary), so will an y such related holidays (or holy days).

[pandora]

It's impossible to get rid of the real holiday this time of year, that being Winter Solitice in the North, and Summer Solitice in the South because it goes back to primoridal times.

Jesus, was born, yes I think he was around, and like anyone else that tried to get people to be more loving was tarred and feathered. For some reason a group celebrated him, we celebrate Che Guevara, same difference, only I don't worship Che, but then Che was not trained by Hindu Yogis to do the return from the dead trick, always a good one, quite common in India. Anyhoo.
Jesus was born in April.

The Christians changed the date around Constintople time to replace the Winter Soltice which is a ceremonial time of rest and rebirth when people gather seed for the new year, bake foods and share and feast, and of course light candles. And later put them on trees in Germany of all things, watched the sun rise for the new dawn. Also enjoying the harvest of the year, now the exchange of material goods, will probably prevail, but good go back to being about food, family, and friends again. Already is among many poor world wide according to the NY Times.

Speaking of Reindeer Horns:
In ancient times the Pagans I believe used to worship the Horned God at this time, which was their King, and would have the Young Stag kill the Old King and sacrifice him ofr the crop pouring his blood on the Earth to ensure fertility. Not exactly the kind of ritual a hegemonic Empire, the end of the Romans at that time, wished to promote, because killing the status quo was scary, plus all the deals with the old King were null and void with the New one. Makes negotiations difficult.

Also makes being King a lot less fun :D Who would want to be president if they sacrificed you afterwards, sure Martin Luther King Jr., JFK, Che, Malcom X, Bobby Kennedy, those were people that knew their time was limited. They received death threats, real scary ones they had no defense for daily. made them better for it as leaders.

Interesting idea. I don't think the practicing of soltice or returning to the natural rhythms would be bad at all, rather bring us back into the natural rhythms of the planet, but of course they would not be officially sanctioned, but private rituals.

What the Roman's learned is you can not get rid of it. I wonder if the official signing in of our president in January is built off the ritual of the Horned God?
Rather Satanic looking isn't he?

[dopediana]

christmas is a crock-holiday invented by the christian elite to keep pagans from practicing their heathen winter solstice rituals. in case you haven´t noticed, easter occurs around the rites of spring. interesting!!!

[ahhh_money_is_comfort]

Originally posted by [email protected] 26 2004, 04:44 AM
All religious holidays ("holy days") would be abolished, of course.

That is, they would have no public significance -- what people did privately would be up to them.

:redstar2000:

The Redstar2000 Papers (http://www.redstar2000papers.fightcapitalism.net)
A site about communist ideas
I'm sorry. I don't understand 'abolished' and 'up to them' from that post? I don't think those two ideas can exist in the same place under the same system.

[ahhh_money_is_comfort]

Originally posted by [email protected] 26 2004, 05:05 AM
Christmas and all pertaining to it would have no public recognition (as redstar2000 said), but that isn't to say that individuals cannot celebrate it.

In thoery, at the very least the capitalisitic elements to Christmas (i.e. consumerism) will be withered away, and possibly as religion is withered away (no longer being neccessary), so will an y such related holidays (or holy days).
Religion wither away? How long is this going to take? I don't see this happening very soon?

[redstar2000]

"Holy days" would have no public significance -- that means that there would be no public decorations, parades, ceremonies, displays, etc.

If you desire to celebrate the "birth" of "Jesus" in private, no one is likely to care...any more than if you celebrate the birth of Elvis Presley or Babe Ruth.

Unlike May Day, for example, which would be a major public holiday...with public ceremonies, speeches, parades, etc.

Other public celebrations would include "Liberation Day" (when the old ruling class finally surrendered), "International Women's Day", and the like.

I imagine there would still be a public celebration of the new year...though it would probably be moved to December 21st in the current calendar. (Calendar reform has always been a priority of revolutionary eras and I see no reason why we wouldn't do it too.)

:redstar2000:

The Redstar2000 Papers (http://www.redstar2000papers.fightcapitalism.net)
A site about communist ideas

[ahhh_money_is_comfort]

Originally posted by [email protected] 26 2004, 11:40 PM
"Holy days" would have no public significance -- that means that there would be no public decorations, parades, ceremonies, displays, etc.

If you desire to celebrate the "birth" of "Jesus" in private, no one is likely to care...any more than if you celebrate the birth of Elvis Presley or Babe Ruth.

Unlike May Day, for example, which would be a major public holiday...with public ceremonies, speeches, parades, etc.

Other public celebrations would include "Liberation Day" (when the old ruling class finally surrendered), "International Women's Day", and the like.

I imagine there would still be a public celebration of the new year...though it would probably be moved to December 21st in the current calendar. (Calendar reform has always been a priority of revolutionary eras and I see no reason why we wouldn't do it too.)

:redstar2000:

The Redstar2000 Papers (http://www.redstar2000papers.fightcapitalism.net)
A site about communist ideas
Thanks. I get that.

I don't understand gifting? Can I just take anything I want from the collective to give as a gift? It seems to me that I can take anything I want. Is that right?

[Raisa]

Originally posted by ahhh_money_is_comfort+Dec 25 2004, 04:19 PM--> (ahhh_money_is_comfort @ Dec 25 2004, 04:19 PM)
[email protected] 25 2004, 03:46 PM
You assume that christmas is a religious holiday. Christmas as we know it exists solely as a capitalist vehicle under the guise of a religious holiday. Jews celebrate the winter solstice with chanakuh, christians with the observance of the birth of Christ and capitalists with free for all marketing. Just as pagan rituals were incorporated into the catholic observance of the solstice, so have capitalist rituals been blended with christian. It has become seamless. Of course communists won't celebrate christmas.
You mean x-mas is abolished? Or x-mas not celebrated? What if I want to? Do I still get to celebrate x-mas under communist doctrine? [/b]
No one is going to stop you from celebrating christmas in communism. Religion in general wont have such an appeal though because many religions now are so strong because they provide comfort to all of the opression and all of the problems class society causes. When there is no more class society religon will have less problems to console, and alot less people will probably be into it. So Jesus's birth wont have the same signifigance for nearly as many people at all, because in communism people do not need messiahs.

Secondly, Christmas is a very capitalist holiday now, you know. There is emotional compulsion, high expectations, and stress, and demand, and shopping madness!
Speaking of the influx of shoppers during the christmas season, wouldnt you think that in order to deal with all those people and their shopping, the retail industry would need to have alot of extra labor?
In our class society getting this extra labor is no problem at all.
There are always ALOT of people who are living in the chains of wage slavery and will do the work without question because they need to feed their families and pay their bills and survive.
But in communism -a classless society- where are you going to get all that extra labor? How are you going to get some people to work and work so others can just shop and shop? How are you going to get people to make half of the consumeristic crap that needs to be in the store? How are you going to get people to work more then they allready do when wage slavery is gone and things are fine the way they are? Youre not (!) because in communism, capitalist consumerism is dead and the working people are free of the subjugation they used to suffer to make consumeristic holidays like christmas.

Bah-humbug!

[redstar2000]

Originally posted by ahhh_money_is_comfort
I don't understand gifting? Can I just take anything I want from the collective to give as a gift? It seems to me that I can take anything I want. Is that right?

Well, you could...but what would it mean to the recipient? They would know that the only effort you made was to stop by and "pick it up".

It would seem rather "impersonal".

I suspect the custom of "special gift giving" would probably wither away; instead, people would make a point of spending time with their loved ones rather than money on them.

In your case, catch a mess of fish and invite them all over for dinner. :)

:redstar2000:

The Redstar2000 Papers (http://www.redstar2000papers.fightcapitalism.net)
A site about communist ideas

[STI]

Making stuff is better anyway. Write a poem, make a card, compose a song, do whatever the hell you want. Self-made gifts are more personal and meaningful anyway.

[bur372]

I think christmas should be renamed as winter solstice and should have no connection to christ. But we should still keep the traditions alive big meal mince pies etc. People should get less presents like £50 of stuff not £300.

What about santa clause? Should he be abolished surley he stands for capatalisim giving out expensive presents when other children have no drinking water. And also the idea of If youve been good you get lots of presents if you've been bad you get no presents. Surley this would be some kind of carrot and stick idea which communisim wiuld not aprove of.

[ahhh_money_is_comfort]

Originally posted by Raisa+Dec 27 2004, 02:24 AM--> (Raisa @ Dec 27 2004, 02:24 AM)
Originally posted by [email protected] 25 2004, 04:19 PM

[email protected] 25 2004, 03:46 PM
You assume that christmas is a religious holiday. Christmas as we know it exists solely as a capitalist vehicle under the guise of a religious holiday. Jews celebrate the winter solstice with chanakuh, christians with the observance of the birth of Christ and capitalists with free for all marketing. Just as pagan rituals were incorporated into the catholic observance of the solstice, so have capitalist rituals been blended with christian. It has become seamless. Of course communists won't celebrate christmas.
You mean x-mas is abolished? Or x-mas not celebrated? What if I want to? Do I still get to celebrate x-mas under communist doctrine?
No one is going to stop you from celebrating christmas in communism. Religion in general wont have such an appeal though because many religions now are so strong because they provide comfort to all of the opression and all of the problems class society causes. When there is no more class society religon will have less problems to console, and alot less people will probably be into it. So Jesus's birth wont have the same signifigance for nearly as many people at all, because in communism people do not need messiahs.

Secondly, Christmas is a very capitalist holiday now, you know. There is emotional compulsion, high expectations, and stress, and demand, and shopping madness!
Speaking of the influx of shoppers during the christmas season, wouldnt you think that in order to deal with all those people and their shopping, the retail industry would need to have alot of extra labor?
In our class society getting this extra labor is no problem at all.
There are always ALOT of people who are living in the chains of wage slavery and will do the work without question because they need to feed their families and pay their bills and survive.
But in communism -a classless society- where are you going to get all that extra labor? How are you going to get some people to work and work so others can just shop and shop? How are you going to get people to make half of the consumeristic crap that needs to be in the store? How are you going to get people to work more then they allready do when wage slavery is gone and things are fine the way they are? Youre not (!) because in communism, capitalist consumerism is dead and the working people are free of the subjugation they used to suffer to make consumeristic holidays like christmas.

Bah-humbug! [/b]
What you just described is an industrial economy grinding to a halt.

[ahhh_money_is_comfort]

Originally posted by [email protected] 27 2004, 06:01 AM
Making stuff is better anyway. Write a poem, make a card, compose a song, do whatever the hell you want. Self-made gifts are more personal and meaningful anyway.
Nah. I'm going to get something nice for the kids at the collective. Kids don't want a poem.

[STI]

For kids, you're probably right :P

I was more referring to personal friends and the sort. Toys are fine for kids.

[Exploited Class]

Originally posted by [email protected] 25 2004, 12:22 PM
Something I heard on the street about communism and religion I suppose.
What street do you walk on that communism and religion are talked about? Marxist Ave at the corner of Jesus St. ? Don't be such an ass.

Under soviet russia and the Eastern Block countries, christmas was not a state sponsered holiday, but most of the common rituals of that day was moved to New Year's Day. Gifts put into shoes, a tree. They gave each other gifts on that New Year's Day and only the religious celebrated Christmas day to any kind of extent. My travels over there, when I asked people there if they celebrated christmas it was explained to me as such.

If you believe in Christ, a SON of A REAL GOD, just like Hercules, then would it really matter what day you paid worship to him? Is there anywhere in the bible that says you must pay respects and worships to the son of god on any day? When compared to something like eternal paradise and salvation does a day particular day or how you worship it really matter?

See even though they were religious they weren't American Stupid about their religion. Many of the religious over there would prefer to not sullen the day of their savior's day by giving each other gifts or being concerned with material worths on such a glorious day. They reserved the first of the year to attend to their concerns and petty wants. Petty when put next to something like eternal salvation.

So gifts were given and recieved on a different day.

Yes, you could probably go and empty a store in a communist world and give it to your kids. I am sure they would love you for it and won't for a second feel bad that they have a father or mother that would take so heavily from the community to give it to them. They will feel great about it.

I do the same right now, I break into houses, the stuff is in it for the taking and when nobody is home nobody is there to stop me. I take a lot of their material possesions and then pass them off as gifts to my loved ones. I tell them where I got it from and how none of it was especially picked out for them. See I do what I CAN DO and not what I SHOULD DO. I CAN break into homes and take other people's stuff, you CAN TAKE stuff from a communsit store and ignore the rule about to each his own ability to each his own need.

Or you can do what exactly my family did and pick out things that we weren't even aware of that we needed. Like I drive 4 hours a day, they got me a nice cooler that plugs into my lighter plug in my car, it can also heat things because I live 40 minutes away from the closest resturant. I didn't even think about having something like it. That is a much nicer gift and more thought out and effort put in than the person that just bought me a 300 dollar coat, even thought I have 4 coats already.

Big Differences between what WE CAN DO and what WE SHOULD DO.

[Raisa]

Originally posted by ahhh_money_is_comfort+Dec 27 2004, 02:12 PM--> (ahhh_money_is_comfort @ Dec 27 2004, 02:12 PM)
Originally posted by [email protected] 27 2004, 02:24 AM

Originally posted by [email protected] 25 2004, 04:19 PM

[email protected] 25 2004, 03:46 PM
You assume that christmas is a religious holiday. Christmas as we know it exists solely as a capitalist vehicle under the guise of a religious holiday. Jews celebrate the winter solstice with chanakuh, christians with the observance of the birth of Christ and capitalists with free for all marketing. Just as pagan rituals were incorporated into the catholic observance of the solstice, so have capitalist rituals been blended with christian. It has become seamless. Of course communists won't celebrate christmas.
You mean x-mas is abolished? Or x-mas not celebrated? What if I want to? Do I still get to celebrate x-mas under communist doctrine?
No one is going to stop you from celebrating christmas in communism. Religion in general wont have such an appeal though because many religions now are so strong because they provide comfort to all of the opression and all of the problems class society causes. When there is no more class society religon will have less problems to console, and alot less people will probably be into it. So Jesus's birth wont have the same signifigance for nearly as many people at all, because in communism people do not need messiahs.

Secondly, Christmas is a very capitalist holiday now, you know. There is emotional compulsion, high expectations, and stress, and demand, and shopping madness!
Speaking of the influx of shoppers during the christmas season, wouldnt you think that in order to deal with all those people and their shopping, the retail industry would need to have alot of extra labor?
In our class society getting this extra labor is no problem at all.
There are always ALOT of people who are living in the chains of wage slavery and will do the work without question because they need to feed their families and pay their bills and survive.
But in communism -a classless society- where are you going to get all that extra labor? How are you going to get some people to work and work so others can just shop and shop? How are you going to get people to make half of the consumeristic crap that needs to be in the store? How are you going to get people to work more then they allready do when wage slavery is gone and things are fine the way they are? Youre not (!) because in communism, capitalist consumerism is dead and the working people are free of the subjugation they used to suffer to make consumeristic holidays like christmas.

Bah-humbug!
What you just described is an industrial economy grinding to a halt. [/b]
I'd really like to know how so?

I don't see a halt, I just dont see a working class being forced to make christmas for you, is all.

[ahhh_money_is_comfort]

Originally posted by Raisa+Dec 29 2004, 02:18 AM--> (Raisa @ Dec 29 2004, 02:18 AM)
Originally posted by [email protected] 27 2004, 02:12 PM

Originally posted by [email protected] 27 2004, 02:24 AM

Originally posted by [email protected] 25 2004, 04:19 PM

[email protected] 25 2004, 03:46 PM
You assume that christmas is a religious holiday. Christmas as we know it exists solely as a capitalist vehicle under the guise of a religious holiday. Jews celebrate the winter solstice with chanakuh, christians with the observance of the birth of Christ and capitalists with free for all marketing. Just as pagan rituals were incorporated into the catholic observance of the solstice, so have capitalist rituals been blended with christian. It has become seamless. Of course communists won't celebrate christmas.
You mean x-mas is abolished? Or x-mas not celebrated? What if I want to? Do I still get to celebrate x-mas under communist doctrine?
No one is going to stop you from celebrating christmas in communism. Religion in general wont have such an appeal though because many religions now are so strong because they provide comfort to all of the opression and all of the problems class society causes. When there is no more class society religon will have less problems to console, and alot less people will probably be into it. So Jesus's birth wont have the same signifigance for nearly as many people at all, because in communism people do not need messiahs.

Secondly, Christmas is a very capitalist holiday now, you know. There is emotional compulsion, high expectations, and stress, and demand, and shopping madness!
Speaking of the influx of shoppers during the christmas season, wouldnt you think that in order to deal with all those people and their shopping, the retail industry would need to have alot of extra labor?
In our class society getting this extra labor is no problem at all.
There are always ALOT of people who are living in the chains of wage slavery and will do the work without question because they need to feed their families and pay their bills and survive.
But in communism -a classless society- where are you going to get all that extra labor? How are you going to get some people to work and work so others can just shop and shop? How are you going to get people to make half of the consumeristic crap that needs to be in the store? How are you going to get people to work more then they allready do when wage slavery is gone and things are fine the way they are? Youre not (!) because in communism, capitalist consumerism is dead and the working people are free of the subjugation they used to suffer to make consumeristic holidays like christmas.

Bah-humbug!
What you just described is an industrial economy grinding to a halt.
I'd really like to know how so?

I don't see a halt, I just dont see a working class being forced to make christmas for you, is all. [/b]
How do you know this is supposed to happen? Can happen? Will happen? It sounds like you are really sure it will. I'm not.

I just saw a documentry on Cosmology. Nice theories. Some can not be tested or observed. One scientist commented, 'if you can not measure, test, or observe a theory; then it is not a theory. It is a religion.'

[encephalon]

I don't think Christmas as we know it today would exist, but something that stems from it would be likely. Right now it is just a big mix of tons of different cultural practices, and I wouldn't call it Christian.

I am a bit unsure of how the act of mass gift-giving would work without being state sanctioned, though.. for one, in true communism the state would whither away an play only a functional role or nothing at all.. and under a socialist state, how would people obtain these extra gifts without being state sanctioned? They can't just go buy it.. perhaps cultural or religious practice in a socialist state would be considered as a need? Or surplus is divided equally amongst members of society to be done with as they wish? If there is only surplus coal one year (even though I'm hoping we find a better energy source by this hypothetical time), does everyone get surplus coal to give as a gift?

It's difficult to think about something so entrenched in capitalism out of context and under socialism.. it would have to be vastly different than it is now, period, at least in terms of gifts.

Maybe Santa Claus would become Santa Marx. :)

[encephalon]

Originally posted by [email protected] 30 2004, 02:10 AM
I'd really like to know how so?

I don't see a halt, I just dont see a working class being forced to make christmas for you, is all.
How do you know this is supposed to happen? Can happen? Will happen? It sounds like you are really sure it will. I'm not.

I just saw a documentry on Cosmology. Nice theories. Some can not be tested or observed. One scientist commented, 'if you can not measure, test, or observe a theory; then it is not a theory. It is a religion.' [/quote]
It's good, then, that the scientist didn't read any Godel, and find out that logic and mathematics, and with that all of science, is one giant paradox that has no real basis in reality.

That said, I'd still have to agree with him. As far as future society goes, you might as well be predicting the weather ten years from now. The system is chaotic, and too many variables exist for any one consideration. However, by looking at the history of earth's atmosphere, and paying special notice to annual weather patterns, one can say with some accuracy that it is likely to rain in July 2010.

By looking at the history of man, one can by inference conjecture what may happen in the future. It isn't just communism that relies on those observations. It's every theory in existence.

[Djehuti]

Originally posted by [email protected] 25 2004, 03:13 PM
Just wondoring. X-mas is a religious holiday. How does that work under communist doctrine? What would be different? Is anything different? If your in consumer market, you work very hard this time of year. The factory people on through the supply chain, down to the cash registers; everyone works really hard.

Of course there are no cash registers. So how does it work? Do I just go somewhere and take what I want? I want to give my nieces and newphews the most labor intensive and material rare goods. Will there be a shortage? I think the kids deserve the best I can get for them. If it will be worth lots of labor and material and I can just have it, what the heck. I'll just take it.
Chistmas/X-mas is not a religious holiday. Atleast not here.
I know no one who seriously celebrate the birth of Jesus (though I most say that I live in a country in wich a vast majority are atheists)...comersialism has become the real god of Christmas. Anyway, I do not see why we have to abolish christmas under communism...most people do find it to be a pleasant hollyday, so why not?
It is nothing that says that you cant get together, eat ham and give eachother presents in a communist society.

[ahhh_money_is_comfort]

Originally posted by [email protected] 30 2004, 11:10 PM

It's good, then, that the scientist didn't read any Godel, and find out that logic and mathematics, and with that all of science, is one giant paradox that has no real basis in reality.

Do you really believe that?

Do you really believe that so much that you don't believe is science?

Then you don't believe in anti-biotics, electricity and computers, and anything made alloy or plastic. All these via science.

[encephalon]

Do you really believe that?

I already said I agreed with the scientist. What I was pointing out was that logic itself has no true foundation other than historical precedent.

[Karl Marx's Camel]

No one is going to stop you from celebrating christmas in communism.


How do you know?

This is based on your own feelings, right?


All religious holidays ("holy days") would be abolished, of course.

That is, they would have no public significance -- what people did privately would be up to them.


That is also based on your personal feelings, yes?


You all seem so sure "how it will be". You can't know how a communist society will look in practice.

[redstar2000]

Originally posted by Djehuti+--> (Djehuti)Anyway, I do not see why we have to abolish Christmas under communism...[/b]

Because it's obviously a crucial part of the struggle against religion in public life.

If we are going to get rid of superstition, then we have to do things...not just sit back and wait for it to go away.


NotWeirdOnlyGifted
You all seem so sure "how it will be". You can't know how a communist society will look in practice.

True...but we very definitely know how we want it to be.

For example, if someone says "let's have communism but let's keep racism", we would say no!

Likewise, if someone says "let's have communism but let's keep religion", we say no!

What we're really saying is this is what we will advocate both before and after the revolution...these are the characteristics of the kind of revolution that seems to us to be both desirable and practical.

And of course we "could" be wrong.

But we also know that what doesn't get struggled for rarely takes place "all by itself". If revolutionaries say "we'll just overthrow capitalism and then sort things out afterwards", the consequences are apt to be unpleasant ones.

:redstar2000:

The Redstar2000 Papers (http://www.redstar2000papers.fightcapitalism.net)
A site about communist ideas

[Anti-Prophet]

If we are going to get rid of superstition, then we have to do things...not just sit back and wait for it to go away.

Actually the only thing the working class has to do is get rid of class division and everything that comes with it, like racism, religion, war etc., will go away on its own. We can and should just wait for it to go away. If it does not go away then it probably wasnt created by the division of classes and therefore it would be unhealthy for society to try and stop it.

A while ago someone on this board said that video games were a product of capitalist society. Its possible that this person is right (although i highly doubt it) but thats not the point, lets pretend he is 100% wrong. If this person somehow got 60% of the people in a communist society to agree with him, that video games are a product of capitalist society and therefore should be gotten rid of, would it be fair to stop the remaining 40% from playing video games even thought it has nothing to do with capitalism or the division of classes? It could be the begining of a dictatorship of the majority, where 51% of the people dictate to the remaining 49% how to live.

[CommieBastard]

wasn't tetris from the USSR?

anyhow. With the whole 'you don't know how it will look in practice' argument, this is obvious piffle.

We define communism as a society that follows certain principles. If in practice it doesnt follow those principles, then it ISNT COMMUNISM. Like how we define a chair as being an object with certain features. If in practice we make an object with different features, it ISNT A CHAIR.

As for gift giving around christmas time, i doubt that there would even be a precedent for taking from the collective wealth of the community. Making something oneself really is a much more fulfilling way to go about gift giving. So your kids want a toy? make one.
If you want to give something that you can't make... well, why do you want to give this thing? ask yourself this. Most parents want to give their kids certain toys because they are bombarded with adverts which tell them that if they dont give those certain toys, they do not love their children.
It's convenient for them to believe this, so they do it. It allows them to just use a bit of their material wealth so that they can shout out to society, Look i love my kids! When in reality they are not bothering to do those things which would actually express that love.

As for those things that you cannot personally make, as you allready said, they are a part of the collective wealth, and if you really need them, you'd get them anyway, regardless of time of year.

As for the whole issue about whether religion would have disappeared, I think this has sidetracked the issue, because even if religion was around as strongly as it is now, it would make no difference. There is no direct contradiciton in communist or anarchist ideology with religion as it stands. Organised religion, however, is another matter. As is any organisation which seeks to dominate or subjugate, or otherwise exploit the lives of other people for their own personal benefit.

[Anti-Prophet]

We define communism as a society that follows certain principles. If in practice it doesnt follow those principles, then it ISNT COMMUNISM.

I agree, exept the word "principles" should not be plural. There is only one real characteristic that seperates communist from non-communist societies and that is the absence of classes. If a society is free from class divistion but ever individual is deeply racist then it is still a communist society (although it probably will not continue to be communist for very long). If a society free from class division but there is still a government (although in my opinion that is impossible) then it is still a communist society. If a society is free from racism, religion, war and everything else that we think is a product of capitalism but class division still exists then it is not communism.

[encephalon]

How do you know?

This is based on your own feelings, right?

No, by the definition of communism it is a fact. No hierarchy = no restrictions by the upper class on personal freedom, because no upper class exists. Under communism, there would be no position of authority to dictate the personal activities of people. If someone wishes to celebrate Christmas, they will. If they don't, they won't.

If you speak of it in terms of working class socialism--and by this I mean actual socialism--then strictly speaking, the working class would dictate whether or not people are allowed to celebrate anything. Now given the fact that laborers aren't mindless, joyless drones (they're just treated as such under capitalist production), I can't think of a reason why they would restrict their own freedom in such a way. Would you?

[Djehuti]

Originally posted by [email protected] 1 2005, 12:31 AM
Because it's obviously a crucial part of the struggle against religion in public life.

If we are going to get rid of superstition, then we have to do things...not just sit back and wait for it to go away.

Indeed we must fight idealism and superstition of all kinds. But do you really think that abolishing christmas will move forth our possitions in this struggle? Is not secularisation of these traditions enough? In the western world very few even thinks about Jesus when celebrating christmas. And I see no reason to go on a crusade against all practising of religion, I fear that will do more bad then good. Common sence and enlightenment will be enough. When we disperse the ideological curtains that blinds us from reality,
I believe that religion will fade away dou time.

[redstar2000]

Originally posted by Anti-Prophet+--> (Anti-Prophet)Actually the only thing the working class has to do is get rid of class division and everything that comes with it, like racism, religion, war etc., will go away on its own. We can and should just wait for it to go away. If it does not go away then it probably wasn't created by the division of classes and therefore it would be unhealthy for society to try and stop it.[/b]

I see...you are willing to tolerate racism, sexism, religion, nationalism, etc., in a revolutionary society on the grounds that all that stuff will either disappear "on its own" or else is somehow "important" to having a "healthy" society.

I find that an incomprehensible position.


It could be the beginning of a dictatorship of the majority, where 51% of the people dictate to the remaining 49% how to live.

We now have a dictatorship of a minority -- is that "better"?

I think the "example" of video games is a foolish one; anyone who suggested that video games are "capitalist" would be laughed at.


If a society is free from class division but every individual is deeply racist then it is still a communist society (although it probably will not continue to be communist for very long).

That's exactly why the struggle against "all the old shit" in post-revolutionary society is so crucial. The people who are in favor of the restoration of capitalism will "take refuge" in other forms of reaction "until" they can make a come-back.

And I think they'll pick religion as their main "fortress" for resisting and subverting communism.


Djehuti
But do you really think that abolishing Christmas will move forth our positions in this struggle?

It "sends a message" that we're serious about this. Many of the things we will do may seem "trivial"...changing street names, city names, names of geographical features, etc. It's the totality of what we do that will serve to fatally undermine religion.

For example, I think we should change our system of numbering years...why are we still using a dating system based on the birth of a Jewish country preacher? It's ridiculous!


When we disperse the ideological curtains that blinds us from reality, I believe that religion will fade away dou [?] time.

Why take the chance? Why risk allowing it to become an ideological "fortress of reaction" through inaction or complacency on our part?

:redstar2000:

The Redstar2000 Papers (http://www.redstar2000papers.fightcapitalism.net)
A site about communist ideas

[Karl Marx's Camel]

Thanks for your answer.


Regarding Anti-Prophet, Redstar2000 says

I see...you are willing to tolerate racism, sexism, religion, nationalism, etc., in a revolutionary society on the grounds that all that stuff will either disappear "on its own" or else is somehow "important" to having a "healthy" society.

I find that an incomprehensible position.


I agree.

[Anti-Prophet]

I see...you are willing to tolerate racism, sexism, religion, nationalism, etc., in a revolutionary society on the grounds that all that stuff will either disappear "on its own" or else is somehow "important" to having a "healthy" society.

Yes exactly. If they do not disappear on their own then we know they are not created by class division and if these things are not created by class division then maybe there is a reason for their existance. If racism does not go away then maybe it is because racists are not completely wrong (although i think science has already proven them wrong) and. Or if religion and the catholic church never goes away then maybe that is because there is a God and the pope really does communicate with him (but again that is extremely unlikely) or that humans are naturaly religiouse. If sexism does not go away... well you get the point. You always have to accept at least the possiblility that you are wrong no matter how much evidence you have to support your ideas. It is important to keep an open mind to racism, sexism, religion nationalism, etc., no matter how paradoxical that may seem. No society should try and stop people from beleiving certain things or stop people from think a certain way. Its very healthy for society to have people with different ideas and beleifs. Can you imagin where science would be if all scientists accepted the same theories and anyone who disagreed with these theories were banned from the scientific community?


I think the "example" of video games is a foolish one; anyone who suggested that video games are "capitalist" would be laughed at.

Yes the example maybe a little far fetched but just like this person was wrong about video games, we have to accept the possiblility that we are wrong about racism, sexism, religion, nationalism, etc. even if we get the majority of society to agree with us.

[redstar2000]

Originally posted by Anti-Prophet
It is important to keep an open mind to racism, sexism, religion, nationalism, etc., no matter how paradoxical that may seem.

:o :o :o

:redstar2000:

The Redstar2000 Papers (http://www.redstar2000papers.fightcapitalism.net)
A site about communist ideas

[encephalon]

it is important to keep an open mind to having your face repeatedly pounded into a brick wall because someone else thinks it is an alright thing apart from class conflict. That doesn't mean it should be allowed.

[CommieBastard]

If we want to truly stop religion, racism etc. then the only way to do it is respect people's right to hold a belief, while trying to convince them that it is an incorrect belief.

Stop respecting someone's right to believe something, and they will believe it all the more fiercely.

This leaves you with only one recourse, and that is to send them to the gulags.

Not, IMO, a good option.

To allow people to hold an incorrect belief is not to bring down the foundations of society, so long as we do not allow them to act in a way that imposes this belief on others.

Any belief that someone is forced to believe will hold less force than one for which they have been given reasons. It is more difficult to make them believe something for reasons, but infinitely more worthwhile.

If we force someone to believe something, then someone may just come along and force them to believe something else.

If we give them good justifications for their belief, then they will resist all efforts to make them believe something new by force.

This is why Christians would resist any effort to change their minds through force. They think they have good justifications for being Christian. If they truly do not, as we believe, then we have to give them better justifications for not believing in Christianity. Yes, they will resist these reasons, because they have been taught to believe in things not for reasons, but because of force.

The first thing that has to be taught to the World, is how to distinguish between a belief which we have good reasons for believing, and one which we do not have good reasons for believing.

[encephalon]

actually, Christianity flourished all over the globe due to the church forcing people to abandon their heathen practices and recognize christianity instead, by threat of death. Although I wouldn't suggest the same, I think organized religion would absolutely have to be discouraged, if not actively fought against. Organized religion is one of the largest tools of social hierarchy in the world, and always justifies the ruling position of the ruling class. Coupled with this, religion is by and large an enemy of worker liberation.

Not to say there shouldn't be celebrations. Just instead of holidays, these would have to be humanistic in nature, not religious.

[VukBZ2005]

Originally posted by Anti-[email protected] 1 2005, 11:35 PM
Yes exactly. If they do not disappear on their own then we know they are not created by class division and if these things are not created by class division then maybe there is a reason for their existance. If racism does not go away then maybe it is because racists are not completely wrong (although i think science has already proven them wrong) and. Or if religion and the catholic church never goes away then maybe that is because there is a God and the pope really does communicate with him (but again that is extremely unlikely) or that humans are naturaly religiouse. If sexism does not go away... well you get the point. You always have to accept at least the possiblility that you are wrong no matter how much evidence you have to support your ideas. It is important to keep an open mind to racism, sexism, religion nationalism, etc., no matter how paradoxical that may seem. No society should try and stop people from beleiving certain things or stop people from think a certain way. Its very healthy for society to have people with different ideas and beleifs. Can you imagin where science would be if all scientists accepted the same theories and anyone who disagreed with these theories were banned from the scientific community?


First - i find this not agreeable at all. Why tolerate the discrimation of other human
beings based on their skin color (when there is no scientific basis for such) or
tolerate the existance of Nationalism and etc. in a revolutionary society? Are you
being dumb and stupid or what? you can not remove the class divisions those ideas
cause because if you do - it will regenerate eventually. by excepting reactionary
ideas like racism, nationalism, sexism, etc. - you are isolating people like atheists,
feminists and people who don't have white skin (like me) from participating in the
revolutionary worker's movement. We must destroy these ideas - or if there are
any capitalist nations that still exist after a worker's revolution - they will use these
ideas and futher discredit us. And will allow white and black nationalists, sexists,
etc. to abuse communist ideas to their advantage. You are going to
eventually allow the regeneration of Capitalism and Class society. It will be self
-distructing to the idea of a classless society. I do not want people like this in this
movement or it will kill us. Do not keep a open mind to reactionary ideas - or you
will become reactionary yourself.

[redstar2000]

Originally posted by CommieBastard
If we want to truly stop religion, racism etc. then the only way to do it is respect people's right to hold a belief, while trying to convince them that it is an incorrect belief.

It seems that no matter how clearly I explain my views, people persist in totally misunderstanding them.

I am not concerned with anyone's "belief" -- they are free to "believe" that the world is secretly run by a cabal of pink unicorns from Vega XII for all I care.

Indeed, we have no objective means of even telling what people "believe"...people can and often do say anything.

What concerns me is public behavior -- and that can be objectively determined.

It's not a criminal offense to wish to kill someone or to even plan how you'd do it if you could. It's doing it (or attempting to do it) that lands you in the shit.

Likewise, if you pray to Allah five times a day in private, no one will care. Doing it in public could get you into trouble.

How much trouble?

Well, that would depend on a lot of factors that we have no way of predicting at this point. How much were other people around you pissed off by your shameless display of superstitious ignorance? A little? A lot???

The same holds true for similar public displays of superstitious beliefs...you might be heckled, spat on, get your ass kicked, be exiled, and perhaps even executed -- it would depend.

The same things that might happen to someone who engaged in racist, sexist, etc. behavior publicly.

So...believe anything you wish, but don't assume that you can do them in public.

Every society has behavior that it regards as intolerable.

We will too.

:redstar2000:

The Redstar2000 Papers (http://www.redstar2000papers.fightcapitalism.net)
A site about communist ideas

[Anti-Prophet]

So...believe anything you wish, but don't assume that you can do them in public.

Right... and that means we (marxists) will have to take all the non-marxist books from the public libraries and throw them into huge bonfires. If anyone wants to publish a book that does not agree with the official proletariat ideology they will have to get their own private printing press and make sure they dont use any public roads to distribute it. After that we will have to ban all public newspapers that do not agree with the official proletariat ideology and next thing you know groups of armed men will be patrolling public spaces looking for people who are criticising or showing disloyalty our flawless proletariat ideology. And of course we will have to sensor all formes of public entertainment too make sure they dont mention anything that is considerd "anti-proletariat" or "reactionary".

[encephalon]

If (revolution is democratic) then {
censorship is senseless
}

This would happen in a marxist-leninist revolution, where a vanguard would sieze state control "in the name of the proletariat." Yet if the revolution is democratic and supported by the working masses, as it must be to be successful, then it is presumed that the masses will have become conscious of the hierarchical nature of organized religion and its support of the status quo. Otherwise, the revolution would fail, as things would quickly fall back into place as they were. In order to support a revolution based on materialism, the masses would necessarily have to abandon religion, at least for the most part.

you presume that, when proletarian revolution occurs, the world will be much the same as it is now. I don't think this is possible. People must be deprogrammed from supporting the current establishment first, and this includes organized religion. The knowledge precludes the act.

[CommieBastard]

Not allowing someone to act on a belief is the same as not allowing them to hold it.

As for people persisting to misunderstand your views, i assure you this is not unique to you, most people will find it most of the time. It is in the nature of language, im going to make a post about this in the philosophy forum at some point.

The key is to try and stay calm when it occurs, and try and find a new way of directing people to what you were attempting to direct them to.

As for public behaviour, why should we stop someone from publicly worshipping allah?

The only thing that we should ever take issue with is that which has a direct detriment to other (non-consenting) people. Whether this be in public or in private.

If someone is preaching the word of Allah in such a way that it is preventing others from objectively weighing up the ideas, then by all means, do something to stop them.

But if someone gets down in the street and starts praying, what right do you have to stop them? from the perspective of their belief they could be doing harm to themselves by not doing this, and so you would be having a direct detriment on them to stop them, where they are doing nothing to harm.

The only truly intolerable behaviour is making people act the way you want them to. If you want someone not to pray in the street, convince them of the reasons, or you will be spreading ignorance and untruths.

Someone mentioned how the church flourished over the globe by preventing others from following their heathen practices. This is a direct example of what im talking about. You stop someone from doing the practice, they'll pretty soon lose the belief. Not because they have reasons to, but because you will have succesfully programmed them to. They will just as easily be deprogrammed by someone else using force. Not such an achievement, if someone can just come along and undo it.

Convince people of the value of reasoning, and lead them to it's ultimate conclusions, however, and you will have someone who will fiercely defend the beliefs they have against anyone attempting to force them to become unreasoning.

[redstar2000]

Originally posted by Anti-Prophet+--> (Anti-Prophet)Right... and that means we (marxists) will have to take all the non-marxist books from the public libraries and throw them into huge bonfires.[/b]

Gee, I can't remember saying that...but, what the hell, if you don't like somebody's ideas, just make up stuff and maybe somebody else will believe it.

If present trends continue, Marxists might well be re-opening or even rebuilding public libraries that were closed down entirely under late capitalism.


CommieBastard
Not allowing someone to act on a belief is the same as not allowing them to hold it.

So be it.


As for public behaviour, why should we stop someone from publicly worshiping Allah?

Because it is deeply offensive to witness such deliberate self-degradation.

Like watching someone eat shit.

It's disgusting!


You stop someone from doing the practice, they'll pretty soon lose the belief.

That's the idea! :D

:redstar2000:

The Redstar2000 Papers (http://www.redstar2000papers.fightcapitalism.net)
A site about communist ideas

[Anti-Prophet]

Gee, I can't remember saying that...but, what the hell, if you don't like somebody's ideas, just make up stuff and maybe somebody else will believe it.

Banning "reactionary" behavior in public life means getting rid of "reactionary" books in public libraries. Just answer this: if you lived in a communist society (lets say 100 years after the revolution), would you start to complain if someone put the Bible and Mein Kampf in a public library? Would you complain if you found a printing press printing pro-capitalist books or newspapers?

Anyway, if you did not say that in your post then you certainly said it in No "Free Speech" for Reactionaries! (http://redstar2000papers.fightcapitalism.net/theory.php?subaction=showfull&id=1097152138&archive=&cnshow=headlines&start_from=&ucat=&)

[redstar2000]

Originally posted by Anti-Prophet+--> (Anti-Prophet)Banning "reactionary" behavior in public life means getting rid of "reactionary" books in public libraries.[/b]

Here's what I actually wrote in the collection to which you linked...


Originally posted by [email protected]
I see no reason why reactionary books might not be stored in a few libraries here and there -- they will be important for historians, after all.

The remainder will be pulped and recycled as new books...pretty much what happens now as a matter of routine.

Of what use are 50,000 copies of How to Succeed in Business when business no longer exists?

The only mention of "book-burning" that I mentioned in that collection was the burning down of a "Rudolf Hess Bookstore" that opened in a Jewish neighborhood in San Francisco.

Do you suggest that we also have an "open mind" about Nazis?


Anti-Prophet
Just answer this: if you lived in a communist society (lets say 100 years after the revolution), would you start to complain if someone put the Bible and Mein Kampf in a public library?

I would have no objection to scholarly editions of either work.

Do you understand what that means? Consider the Anchor Bible. Each volume contains a small part of the Bible with a great number of footnotes, discussions of alternative possible translations, essays on the historical context of the writing, etc.

It's something that doesn't merely display what the Bible says but explains how and why it says what it does.

Such editions might be prepared for many reactionary books of historical interest...and I would see no reason to exclude them from major public libraries at all.

Indeed, something of the same sort might be done with the works of Lenin, Stalin, Trotsky, Mao, etc.


Would you complain if you found a printing press printing pro-capitalist books or newspapers?

You bet! If I found out about it, I'd raise loud and prolonged hell about it.

There's no excuse for that shit!

:redstar2000:

The Redstar2000 Papers (http://www.redstar2000papers.fightcapitalism.net)
A site about communist ideas

[Anti-Prophet]

You bet! If I found out about it, I'd raise loud and prolonged hell about it.

There's no excuse for that shit!

I guess you dont see anything wrong with haveing a section of society telling another section of society what they can and cannot read, what they can and cannot write, what they can and cannot say, and what they can and connot share but i hope to god that everyone else on this board does.

Id like to remind you that as marxists our enemy is the bourgeosie class not proletarians with bourgeosie beliefs.

BTW: Would you also try to stop people from using terms like "hope to god" and "gods green earth" in puplic also? :rolleyes:

[redstar2000]

Originally posted by Anti-Prophet
I guess you don't see anything wrong with having a section of society telling another section of society what they can and cannot read, what they can and cannot write, what they can and cannot say, and what they can and cannot share but I hope to god that everyone else on this board does.

Every human society defines an "acceptable range" of public discourse and behavior. Communism will be no exception...though its range will be very different from what exists now.

You may as well "hope to god" as your tolerance for reaction has no earthly hopes at all.

:redstar2000:

The Redstar2000 Papers (http://www.redstar2000papers.fightcapitalism.net)
A site about communist ideas

[Professor Moneybags]

Originally posted by [email protected] 3 2005, 03:32 AM
Every human society defines an "acceptable range" of public discourse and behavior. Communism will be no exception...though its range will be very different from what exists now.

You may as well "hope to god" as your tolerance for reaction has no earthly hopes at all.
I can hazard a guess as what happens to those with "reactionary" ideas, too.

Your society is going to be no different from Stalin's.

[redstar2000]

Originally posted by Professor Moneybags
I can hazard a guess as what happens to those with "reactionary" ideas, too.

Your society is going to be no different from Stalin's.

It all depends, my good man, on whether you act on your reactionary ideas or not.

I don't care what's "in your head" (if anything)...I only care about what you do.

:redstar2000:

The Redstar2000 Papers (http://www.redstar2000papers.fightcapitalism.net)
A site about communist ideas