Pornography

[Orange Juche]

I have been seriously pondering whether or not socialist nations, such as Cuba, produce pornography. Do they? If so, why, if not, why? What is your thought on this?

[Andrei Kuznetsov]

All pornography- be it within the confines of a corporation or underground- is exploitative and is about people being treated as objects for the viewer's pleasure. It is a main contributor to the oppression of women and children (and to some extent, men) in this society.

We Communists are trying to create a world without commodities. Why should we allow people to be treated as commodities? Communists should work to build a world where sexual relations are based on love, equality, and friendship, not treating each other as pieces of meat.

[h&s]

What if the women involved actually want to be in the pornography though?

[Andrei Kuznetsov]

Capitalism always disguises oppression as choice.

Workers "choose" to get hired and exploited, and be commodities.
Women "choose" to be prostitutes.
Countries "choose" to export their resources to the U.S.
etc. etc.

Capitalist commodity exchange (including the commodification of people) disguises exploitation as "equal exchange between buyer and seller."

And that is the essense of the "dirty secret" that Marxism exposes -- it is not "equal", it is not "a choice", it is exploitation-disguised-as-exchange-of-equals. Under socialism (and eventually under communism), people will feel no need to treat themselves as pieces of meat or degrade themselves for other people's pleasure, because we will be living in a society where people are treated as equals. Sexual relations in the new society will be based on love, comraderie, friendship, and equality, and thus pornography and prostitution will have no place in it.

[BOZG]

I lgenerally agree with Andrei on the issue though I don't believe that it will always be the case. Pornography, vastly different from nudity, is an attempt to objectify humans especially women. It is produced solely for the purpose that humans are sex objects. This does not always have to be the case. It's virtually impossible to reject that people are attracted to each other based on their bodies/looks etc. but the problem is attitudes and respect and under capitalism, such problems towards other humans will always exist.

If a person chooses to star in pornography, they should be able to but that's not what's in question. Whether they're consenting does not change the nature of pornography itself, it does not change the attitude and sexism that is rampant with pornography. There are even cases of socialist pornstars, Nina Hartley for one.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Starring in pornography is a job just like any other under capitalism: exploitative

Why single it out?

[redstar2000]

Originally posted by [email protected] 22 2004, 02:41 AM
I have been seriously pondering whether or not socialist nations, such as Cuba, produce pornography. Do they? If so, why, if not, why? What is your thought on this?
It is unlikely that much porn is produced in Cuba because resources are so scarce there...even paper is strictly rationed.

Some Canadian and European porn might be available...brought in by "tourists" hoping to develop a market.

One of the factors that contributes to the popularity of porn in any class society is a puritanical attitude towards sex itself. In the U.S., we have a long tradition of religion-based puritanism...but to that has been added health-puritanism -- the idea that sex is "unsafe" and "potentially deadly".

As a consequence, we have the largest (probably) porn industry in the world -- vicarious "sex" (in many forms) is a billion-dollar market and will probably only get bigger.

Cuban culture, on the other hand, is quite "loose" with regard to sex -- the real thing is widely available and relatively inexpensive.

As to the fate of porn in a post-capitalist society, much depends on the shape of that society.

A Leninist socialism would certainly have a porn industry and prostitution as well...though nothing approaching the scale of existing capitalist societies.

Leninist socialism is still a class society -- which means that how well you live depends on how much money you have or can acquire. Where there is a direct economic incentive to engage in certain behavior, that behavior will arise.

One thing a Leninist socialist regime could do is prohibit the production of any new porn...while permitting the free circulation of all the porn inherited from the old capitalist society. This would effectively end the exploitation of living women and children while meeting the "market demand" for porn.

But it would not stop prostitution.

A communist (classless) society is quite different. There is no money and hence no economic incentive to make porn or circulate it (and no incentive for prostitution either). Some people would create erotic works of art, no doubt. But that would be the only reason to do it.

:redstar2000:

The Redstar2000 Papers (http://www.redstar2000papers.fightcapitalism.net)
A site about communist ideas

[Edelweiss]

okay, i'm in the mood to play devil's advocate, please don't take my reply too serious...:)


A communist (classless) society is quite different. There is no money and hence no economic incentive to make porn or circulate it (and no incentive for prostitution either). Some people would create erotic works of art, no doubt. But that would be the only reason to do it.

It's not true that only men are watching porn, I know that many women watch porn as well, women that are far away from being puritanian, and who are even quiet emancipated in most parts of their lives. :They don't see porn as a exploitation of women at all, and do actually just enjoy watching porn for the same reason men do. ;) Of course less than men, but still it is a significant phenemomen which can hardly be denied. Same probably goes for women actually involved in the production of porn, it's an exeption, but there are women (and men) who enjoy to be in a porn movie, and who would even do it without any compensation and just for pleasure. So, you could argue that also in a communist society some porn will be produced, voluntarily by men and women for whom it is part of their sexual expression.

[The Garbage Disposal Unit]

I think there is a difference between production of pornography (Literally, material designed to arouse) and the porn industry - the commodification arousal, and of the methods of creating arrousal. Do to the patriarchal deformation of our society, this typically means the sexualization of women's bodies and the subsequent desexualization of women themselves (As objects to arouse, rather than to themselves be aroused. Sucky, eh?).
In a communist society, once we've smashed essentialist notions of gender and educated away fear of sexuality, many of the primary motivations for cold and distant pre-packedged porn will disapear, and naturally, the abolition of class will destroy the economic base of any sort of industry based on pornography. I do, however, believe that some people genuinely get off, of creating things to get other people off - I think this art will flourish. :D
(With the introduction of the four-hour work day, I'll have sooo much time for writing erotic fiction!!!)

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

I absolutely agree with Andrei. Right on, comrade.


Some Canadian and European porn might be available...brought in by "tourists" hoping to develop a market.

This is a bit misleading, RedStar. If I'm not mistaken, pornography is extremely prominent in Europe. As is prostitution...

I think you're also missing the true nature of prostitution and pornography.


There is no money and hence no economic incentive to make porn or circulate it

Everything is capitalism is done for money.
The "problem" with prostitution and pornography is that it perpetuates and hugely advances the male gender's dominance in class society by making women into commodities. It's directly reactionary aside from it's creation of capital.

Socialism will phase it out by bringing about gender equality, RS.

[redstar2000]

Originally posted by RedZeppelin
Everything in capitalism is done for money.
The "problem" with prostitution and pornography is that it perpetuates and hugely advances the male gender's dominance in class society by making women into commodities. It's directly reactionary aside from its creation of capital.

So is much else produced in the current system.


Socialism will phase it out by bringing about gender equality, RS.

None of the existing societies that called themselves socialist brought about gender equality -- though some tried harder than others.

None of them "abolished" prostitution -- though it may have been suppressed here and there for brief periods. I've never heard of porn in those societies, so perhaps they were able to suppress its production entirely. Porn is "more complicated" to produce and market than "just sex".

But I have to keep reminding you, RZ, that socialism is a class society -- which means that women have a direct financial incentive to engage in prostitution. It's "easy work" and "pays well"...which means you live better than you would if you were a clerk-typist in the Ministry of Gender Equality.

There's no "getting around that", RZ.

:redstar2000:

The Redstar2000 Papers (http://www.redstar2000papers.fightcapitalism.net)
A site about communist ideas

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

So is much else produced in the current system.

Yes.
And the point was that the incentive for things like prostitution isn't just capital directly, but also the subjugation of women.




None of the existing societies that called themselves socialist brought about gender equality -- though some tried harder than others.

None of them "abolished" prostitution -- though it may have been suppressed here and there for brief periods. I've never heard of porn in those societies, so perhaps they were able to suppress its production entirely. Porn is "more complicated" to produce and market than "just sex".

That's true.
I realize that socialism is a class society.
Essentially the abolition of the male power structure and economic inequality is what will bring an end to prostitution and pornography. The failure to abolish that, is a failure to bring about socialism. In the case of Cuba, I blame tourism... As far as the other socialist experiments are concerned, I have no idea how prostitution was handled and what the result was.

[Xvall]

I'm under the opinion that most pornography is produced with the male demographic in mind. I've noticed that pornography is one of those things that everyone likes to pretend it bad and distateful, but everyone seems to watch.

[redstar2000]

Originally posted by RedZeppelin
Essentially the abolition of the male power structure and economic inequality is what will bring an end to prostitution and pornography. The failure to abolish that, is a failure to bring about socialism.

Well, the fact is that "economic inequality" is a fundamental characteristic of all class societies, including socialism. Even if there was statistical equality between men and women as groups, there would still be economic inequality among individuals...and hence a built-in economic incentive for people to do "bad things" to get more money.

The numbers of individuals who would be willing to do "bad things" to get more money might be limited...but they would exist.

To be sure, you can build up a strong repressive state apparatus that can reduce such behavior -- make it very risky to engage in. But you're not going to "eliminate it".

Further, your repressive apparatus can and almost certainly will be corrupted itself. Cops will be bribed to look the other way...or even decide to take the initiative themselves to do "bad things". Police have been known to run prostitution rings themselves, engage in massive drug-dealing, even set up their own burglary operations.

No doubt there would be less of this sort of behavior under socialism...especially in the early years. But the longer your "transitional state" lasts, the more the rot will spread. Eventually, you get a Brezhnev-type leader under which corruption explodes. Cynicism becomes "universal"...and capitalism is restored.

Rhetoric about "abolishing the male power structure" is not going to help you in this regard; given the opportunity, women are fully as capable of being corrupt and exploitative as men are.

In short, if you opt for socialism, you're going to get, sooner or later, everything we have now.

Material reality prevails.

:redstar2000:

The Redstar2000 Papers (http://www.redstar2000papers.fightcapitalism.net)
A site about communist ideas

[Anarchist Freedom]

I have to say that in the porn industry is exploitive in some markets of the industry such as this Max Hardcore

This stuff is horrible. But I dont think that women dont mind being the job when its worth millions of dollars for them!!!!

[Note: porn link deleted due to virus danger -- redstar2000]

[Latifa]

What about 'bored housewifes'??

[Hate Is Art]

In capitilist society pornography promotes the exploitation of women and the commodifing of sexuality. But to be honest in a classeless society I am unsure what would happen with pornography, I'm sure the answer to this question would arise after the revolution.

[RABBIT - THE - CUBAN - MILITANT]

there isn’t really porn in Cuba ..that I know of . i think it is because the Caribbean and Latin American people are so sexual in there every day life that there isn’t any real need for pornography.

[Wurkwurk]

I don't see anything wrong with sex, and therefore nothing wrong with pornography. Sex is a wonderful thing, sex makes people happy. Sex is a basic human NECESSITY! :D

Not all sex is exploititave either; it is generally illegal to produce true 'forced sex' pornography. All 'legal' pornography also requires consent from all participants. To that effect, I don't see how porn would 'not work' in a socialist or communist society, or any society to that effect.

Anyways, this issue is more about morals and ethics rather than class systems&#33; You guys that go agaist porn remind me of Billy Grahm, Jerry Falwell, and other extreme right wingers <_< ...ahem...not that thats BAD :P

[Red Heretic]

I&#39;m going to take the Openly Classist stance here. Check out the Openly Classist article "A Feminist Defense of Pornography" here:

http://www.openlyclassist.org.uk/defporn.html

[Anti-Prophet]

If people want to make porn movies and they are not opposed to its distribution and there is a demand for the porn movie then there will be porn. If nobody is willing to make porn then there will be no porn. Its that simple. No person, government or group of people, even if they form the majority or are supported by the majority, should be able to tell other people what they are and are not allowed to do with their own lives.

[che-Rabbi]

[QUOTE] What if the women involved actualy want to be in the pornography though?

This reminds me of the book animal farm, by georege orwell when mollie, a horse or something, wants to keep wearing ribbons and eating sugar even after they are free from jones ( the farmer). People who still want to be in " the industrie" after comunism takes over , well... they might as well paint a dixie cup, put it on their heads and call them selves PHOQUES SAVANTS&#33; And saves us the trouble of explaining to them that they are a tool of capitalism and lock them up in a convent for the rest of their days&#33;...( mind you, the gouvernement could make a pretty penny sending people off to an isolated, only female- ex pornstars who haven&#39;t had a man in years.... well lol you get the picture)

[redstar2000]

Originally posted by che&#045;Rabbi
People who still want to be in " the industrie" after comunism takes over , well... they might as well paint a dixie cup, put it on their heads and call them selves PHOQUES SAVANTS&#33; And saves us the trouble of explaining to them that they are a tool of capitalism and lock them up in a convent for the rest of their days&#33;...( mind you, the gouvernement could make a pretty penny sending people off to an isolated, only female- ex pornstars who haven&#39;t had a man in years.... well lol you get the picture)

I get the picture all right...and a pretty ugly one it is.

Another semi-literate anti-women "joke", to be precise.

Something which I&#39;m growing impatient with on this board. :angry:

What exactly is so funny about sending female porn-stars to a convent "for the rest of their days"?

Not to mention the stupidities about "government" and "convents" and "money" under "communism".

Personally, I&#39;m approaching the point where I start handing out warning points for this kind of "humor".

It ain&#39;t funny, dammit&#33;

:redstar2000:

The Redstar2000 Papers (http://www.redstar2000papers.fightcapitalism.net)
A site about communist ideas

[Wurkwurk]

Dudes, if women WANT to be in porn, then how in the name of god is it &#39;enslaving&#39; them? There was porn, there is porn, and there will forever be porn because SEX ISN&#39;T BAD&#33; (a defaulty liberal opinion)

Again, if women WANT to be in porn, how is it exploitative? They&#39;re choosing to do it anyways. Answer me that&#33;

[RevolutionarySocialist MadRedDog]

I think most of us agree on the fact that in a capitalist society pornography is also a example of oppression. But I guess this wouldn&#39;t be the case in socialist society, where a woman could never be obligated or forced (e.g. by the need to provide for her means of life) to working in the pornography business.

I guess we have to get rid of the idea that pornography always means that the person involved is being degraded: he/she could as well like the fact that people like to see his/her body.

On a more personal level: in a relationship based on love, I would not like the idea of either me or my female better half being active in this business.

[bolshevik butcher]

Do woman want to be in porn, surely it&#39;s like when people "want" to work in wage slavery, it&#39;s because they don&#39;t have any option, and it&#39;s the only way to feed themselves.

[Postteen]

Originally posted by [email protected] 2 2005, 07:56 AM
Dudes, if women WANT to be in porn, then how in the name of god is it &#39;enslaving&#39; them? There was porn, there is porn, and there will forever be porn because SEX ISN&#39;T BAD&#33; (a defaulty liberal opinion)

Again, if women WANT to be in porn, how is it exploitative? They&#39;re choosing to do it anyways. Answer me that&#33;
Do women want to be in porn?I don&#39;t think that a healthy (in her mind) woman without the need of money would ever want to be in porn&#33;However if she&#39;s illiterate, stupid or can&#39;t see the exploitation, that&#39;s another thing.Or are you trying to say that a woman who has the qualification to have a proper job choses to be a porn star?Do you know anyone?

[Kobbot 401]

A good point is why do people go and get involved in porn in the fist place? Yes, if there is a market there will be porn, but if there is no actors and actresses then how can the porn film be made.

I believe that the people who star in pornos believe in their minds that they had no other way to make money, at least most of them, or that they have the looks that they think will get them far and rich.

Is it taking advantage of a person because they are nieve or timade? Damn right it is. Throw a few nice word at a person and you can gain their trust.

[Wurkwurk]

Originally posted by Beatle [email protected] 3 2005, 06:44 PM
Do women want to be in porn?I don&#39;t think that a healthy (in her mind) woman without the need of money would ever want to be in porn&#33;However if she&#39;s illiterate, stupid or can&#39;t see the exploitation, that&#39;s another thing.Or are you trying to say that a woman who has the qualification to have a proper job choses to be a porn star?Do you know anyone?
Some women do. The reasons for a woman or a man to become a pornstar is very obvious&#33;

1) It feels bloody good
2) You wake up wanting to go to work
3) Pay is certainly not bad
4) She feels proud and confident about her body
5) What&#39;s wrong with sex?

See, very good reasons to be in porn. Plus, porn is not a bad thing in the first place, SEX is not bad in the first place&#33;

I feel like I&#39;m surrounded by evangelists :(