Anarchy is the end product

[ILoveShrub]

first of all let me say that I believe in both anarchy and communism

But let's state that America as the worlds largest and most powerful economic center dictates to the rest of the world. and imposes it's beliefs and values across the globe.

That said, If you had a revolution and installed anarchy and disbanded any or all the institutions you wished. There would be two kinds of people. those who would fullfill the ideals of anarchism. And then the exploiters. Throughout the ages capitalism has poisined the human race. I have read of some tribes deep in the Amazon that were untouched by they outside world and had a working anarchist community. But in a post-capitalist society you would have things like organized crime running everything and you would have the strong taking things from the weak.

I believe that as humans we want to do good but we have been corrupted. So we need to reteach the qualities that we have lost. And to do this we need to start with a light socialistic government.

capitalism-----socialism-------communism--------anarchy

through these steps we would reach our goal of freedom. The problem with people is we want to see results. and we want to see them now. This need is a capitalist need.
Thousands of years of capitalism will not be erased by lets say 50 years socialism or anarchy or communism.

We need to in Che Guevara's words create a new man. But his timeframe was to short. To create this new man it will at least take 5 generation. So that the new man will not even know what capitalism is.

So that in the anarchist society, the man will not even know what it is to take advantage of another.

Anarchy is the end product, that we all so despartly want.

[Reuben]

I agree completely. as you said, scoial conditioning as set out by Che Guevara would facilitate a classless society. Furthermore, Karl Marx agrued that the state exists purely to moderate calss conflict and thus maintain bourgoir power, he felt that when socialism came about, the state would diminish as these clas conflicts, and thus the necessity of the state, would dissappeaar.

[Anonymous]

Like marx said: "anarchism is the ultimate stage of comunism"!

[antieverything]

Yeah, whatever...if anyone tries any "social conditioning" on me, I'll kick their ass.

[ILoveShrub]

Well Antieverything, if you are completly willing to help other without any incentive other than helping, than you would not need the "social conditioning". But I'm sure that all of us who every lived in a capitalist society could use some. We have all probably walked past a homeless person on a cold night once, only having getting home on our mind.

[antieverything]

The thing is that someone is going to have to decide what kind of conditioning is going to happen and someone is going to disagree and have to be "dealt with"...I'm not going to buy into the "ends justify the means" crap.

[BenJammin]

In an anarchist society, those who uphold the ideals of anarchism would not allow the strong to exploit the weak, because they have mutual respect for eachother. The majority of people would help those who are being exploited because it would be upholding their anarchist society that they worked so hard to create in the first place.

[Reuben]

Antiecerything, you talk about social conditioning as if it is some kind of initiative taken upo by a government. It is not, it is simply a fact of life that people's individual psycologies are not insulated from their society, or from the social and economic conditions in which they exist.

[jimr]

I completely agree. I have always supported the idea of changing the education system to invoke more social principles being upheld in a person. At the moment people are brought up with money as the goal of life. Some learn from experiance, or from the acts of certian revolutionaries that this is not a morally acceptablly goal. The need to teach children to respect each other, and to help one another should surely take preference on teaching children the methods of exploiting one another.

However forced education is perhaps not the best method of this. Perhaps a country be created where communists from all over the world can go and practise their ideals, Certianly if you have a intial generation of socially educated peoples then it will be easier to pass these ideals on free from capitalist propoganda,

6 million jews died as a result of Nazi persectution. How many communists, socialists and anarchists have been persecuted and murdered by their imperialist enemies.

The jews were rewarded with a home land. Why shouldnt communists recieve the same gift?

I realise this sounds idiotic, especially since i do not agree with the state of Israel, although a leftist town would seemingly be appropriate.

I should be in bed

[RGacky3]

Anarchy would be great. But realistically it can't work, even after many decades of socialism, people will relize that they can do what ever they want and they will try and achieve power and they will exploit.

[man in the red suit]

yeah, It's just one of those things that can't happen. Like Lenin, I believe that people can not be trusted to run themselves. You guys have given me many arguments and I have tried to understand them and listen to what you guys have to say the best I can. To no avail though. I can never comprehend what you people see in it. Well I take it back. It is a great theory but it just doesn't work. You can argue with me all you want but I still won't understand it. I firmly believe that anarchy will become feudalism. Myabe not chaos as I had originally thought, but at least feudalism. Anarchy sounds so primitive to me. It would work for about a week. Then things would go wrong. Also, you would need everyone living in that communisty to be an anarchist. Otherwise, one group or person with more power will take control. I also don't see anarchy as productive. I know many people who would just sit around and do nothing all day if they could. How will you get people to work? people like me (and they are growing in numbers) don't want to work unless we have motivation. Motivation for me, is knowing that we have a goverment or a dictatorship to run all of the things that the people are not capable of handling in the name of the people themselves. A group of people cannot run themselves. I am sorry to say that in my eyes, anarchy is the end of human existence rahter than the end product. If you really want to convine me, explain to me how things will be run in anarchy and how criminals will be delt with. Will there be angry "mobs of the proletariot" to attack thiefs and killers with knives and pitchforks? I read a book on anarchy and it explained none of my questions. Maybe you guys can answer them for me.

Now let's try to answer these questions without swearing directed towards me as well. thank you

[evil chris]

howdy Iloveshrub

"first of all let me say that I believe in both Anarchy and Communism "

ok cool.Just incase you haven't seen my posts before, I belive in certain tenants of Anarchism.Just so you know my bias when i debate your points.Cool?

"Throughout the ages capitalism has poisined the human race."

I'll run with you only so far on this point."Capitalism" ( we do not live in a a Capitalist societ, nor have we ever) has corrupted those who belive in Capitalism.The idea of Hierarchy and Power has courrupted just about everyone over the course of time.Happily this doesn't twist everyone into jackbooted power-crazed thugs and when people empathise and understand the concequences of their Trippin' they tend to switch back on to "Human" mode.
Test yourself.Do you power trip? Does it last for long? Why does it happen? What makes you see sense?
You are always your best arguement.If you want to keep your premis, how do you think "Capitalism" has effected you?

"But in a post-capitalist society you would have things like organized crime running everything"

How and Why?
If everything is communally owned, how do they stand to gain by stealing from themselves?
And who is going to buy what is already theirs?

". you would have the strong taking things from the weak."

why?
Under the principle of Mutal Aid, we will (and do) help each other in the face of this "Strength"

"And to do this we need to start with a light socialistic government. "

to make this judgement a vaild argument, you will have to prove your premis.
Secondly,if Capitalism is the great courrpter, is the "reformed capitalism" of Socialism really going to help root out this courruption?

"capitalism-----socialism-------communism--------anarchy"

this chart implys that to win humanities redepmtion, the State (and it's Power) will have to become very strong-but will then simply give it up.This seems similar to Thacther's "withering of the state" and would be just as false.Those in Power are loath to give it up.

" people is we want to see results. and we want to see them now. This need is a capitalist need."

in what respect?
I would suggest it has more to do with the fact that we only have a very short life span more than because we love money.

"Thousands of years of Capitalism "

we have never actully had Capitalism but if you are refering to our current economic system it has only been in place for about 700 years,tops.Money existed as a bartering tool previously but the trapings of capitalism, banking, stock systems, property deeds etc had not emerged.

"will not be erased by lets say 50 years socialism or anarchy or communism.

what do you mean by 'erased'?

". So that the new man will not even know what capitalism is. "

is enforced ingnorance really the way to build an Uberman?
If you are working towards freedom, why the cencorship and coercion?

[evil chris]

"It's just one of those things that can't happen. "

MITRS,surely as the scolar of Anarchism you claimed to be, you would reaslise that with our history,your statment is abit like standing in the middle of the A47 and saying "horseless carriges? Nah never happen mate!"

"I believe that people can not be trusted to run themselves. "

why not?
Please tell me how the State or it's agents have today shaped your life.
They didn't wake me thismoring.Nor did they force me to go to work.They didn't tell me how to do myu job.No MP told me to socialise with my mates and the police didn't drive me home.
I think i ran myself quite well today and i'm looking forward to doing it again tomorrow.
Please demonstrate to me where i am mistaken.

" You can argue with me all you want but I still won't understand it"

This,friends is evedence of a cultic mentality.
Let me re phrase the quote

"NAH NAH NAH I'M NOT LISTENING!!! NAH NAH NAH!!!"

MITRS has already decided what he belives and will not shake from it.And hey, if he wants to belive the world is flat coz otherwise we'd fall off the planet, that his shout.

"I firmly believe that anarchy will become feudalism. "
though he does not see fit to show us why.

"Anarchy sounds so primitive to me. " But does not suggest why.Instead MITRS relies on recived orthadoxy.

"It would work for about a week" this ignores history.Seeing as how MITRS previously claimed to be an authority on anarchism, it can only be willful ignorance.Ingorance Is Strength.

"Then things would go wrong"

such as?
and why would we be able to fix them?

"Otherwise, one group or person with more power will take control"

where would this power come from? would people really just allow them too once they'v tasted freedom?

"I know many people who would just sit around and do nothing all day if they could. "

Bill Hick : "yeah i could get up a 6 am and go to a job that does not inspire me creatively.....................Or i could get up at noon....and learn to play the sitar!"

Bill is talkin bout dope but the the quote works.People (me and you included) don't want to do shity pointless jobs that mean nothing to no one bar a minority of shareholders and execs.
Most people don't mind doing things they like or see the need for.You may not jump for joy at the prospect of washing your smalls but you realise it must be done and therefore do.
The idea of slaugtering cattle does not make me sing but the need for food will comple me to do it.
The handy men i know enjoy their work and most spend theur free time making and fixing stuff.Are you suggesting that in freedom people will just stop doing things they enjoy and do for lesure?
Pretty big stretch of the imagination surely

"Motivation for me, is knowing that we have a goverment or a dictatorship to run all of the things that the people are not capable of handling in the name of the people themselves"

so wait hang on.You are motiveated by an opressive force treating you like a child?
Were you a good student in school per chance?
Or did you go to Cadets a couple of time to often?
ah well.Slavery Is Freedom.

"A group of people cannot run themselves. "

has a group of you ever organised going to the pub? Have you ever organised a poltical action of more than one person? Have you ever been in the been in a family house about 8 o'clock?
If anyone can answer "yes" to these questions MITRS argument is demostraitably false.

"in my eyes, anarchy is the end of human existence rahter than the end product. "

moveing on from recived orthadoxy to mass hysteria now...

"If you really want to convine me, explain to me how things will be run in anarchy and how criminals will be delt with. Will there be angry "mobs of the proletariot" to attack thiefs and killers with knives and pitchforks?"

these are true entry level question.You have not read anything of relevence about Anarchism.Even the anarchy FAQ might help you but i would suggest finding some decent books on the subject.And maybe just think outside of what you have been told is so.
If i have time tomorrow i will help you .

respect,
Chris





(Edited by evil chris at 3:22 am on June 25, 2002)

[antieverything]

We don't need any fucking "social conditioning". We don't need anyone telling us how to think. We need to be able to think for ourselves...we need to end social conditioning before we can be free.

[ILoveShrub]

I am very happy this topic sparked an interesting conversation. And I hope to theorize how to answer Evil Chris's questions. But as of yet this topic is just theory. So everything said with meaning is constructive.

Thanks Comrades

[RGacky3]

First of all you anarchists see things as if they will be perfect. You say everything will be collective, lets say some one in the group does'nt want to be collective. then you mention things like people organizing to go to the pub ect, ect. Going to the pub is a very small matter, society is a very large matter. What if people in the group arn't anarchist, and they want a government, how do you take care of those people. Even if it does work, it will end up very capitalist.

[antieverything]

The idea is good but what happens is that the state would teach people not to question and not to aspire...of course I hope I'm wrong (I'm really becoming more of a marxist daily) The thing is that you can't put your trust in a state...but hey, if you want to have a socialist country, hopefully this country would allow us anarchists to exist by ourselves. Then I don't see a problem...I'm not totally against all authority as long as the authority comes from free association.

[ILoveShrub]

Anti-everything


This country would be open to compromise. You would be free to practice anarchy and we would uphold liberaty. We would also allow you to live outside the law as long as you don't exploit it and let's say , murder senselessy or steal. But other than that as I see it. Anarchists would be anarchists

[evil chris]

"You say everything will be collective, lets say some one in the group does'nt want to be collective."

then they can go to Coventry.Say this hyperthectical person does not want o reap the benifits of working together then they can make their own way.Why would we stop them?
Can we not tolerate other ideas?
I would hope we can and encourage dissident.

". Going to the pub is a very small matter"

in my experance ,mobaliseing people to get to the pub is a harder task than it sounds!
Anyway, when i say this my touge is firmly in my cheek.
I'm sorry, dry humor doesn;t tend to work as well in text.

"society is a very large matter"

i would disbute this.Democracy only works well in small groups,therefore if you want a fully democratic state (as Anarchists do) society has to be reduced to small numbers

", and they want a government, how do you take care of those people. "

by not taking care of them.......
Why can't they go off and have their governement.This is a large,furtile planet in a large,furtile universe.There is plenty of room for alternative ideologys and i would fight for their right to voice them.

"Even if it does work, "

as history and basic anthropogy suggests it will.

"it will end up very capitalist. "

if you apply even a modcome of logic here you will see this is an absurdatiy.You also fail to suggest why.

[man in the red suit]

Quote: from evil chris on 3:14 am on June 25, 2002
"It's just one of those things that can't happen. "

MITRS,surely as the scolar of Anarchism you claimed to be, you would reaslise that with our history,your statment is abit like standing in the middle of the A47 and saying "horseless carriges? Nah never happen mate!"

"I believe that people can not be trusted to run themselves. "

why not?
Please tell me how the State or it's agents have today shaped your life.
They didn't wake me thismoring.Nor did they force me to go to work.They didn't tell me how to do myu job.No MP told me to socialise with my mates and the police didn't drive me home.
I think i ran myself quite well today and i'm looking forward to doing it again tomorrow.
Please demonstrate to me where i am mistaken.

" You can argue with me all you want but I still won't understand it"

This,friends is evedence of a cultic mentality.
Let me re phrase the quote

"NAH NAH NAH I'M NOT LISTENING!!! NAH NAH NAH!!!"

MITRS has already decided what he belives and will not shake from it.And hey, if he wants to belive the world is flat coz otherwise we'd fall off the planet, that his shout.

"I firmly believe that anarchy will become feudalism. "
though he does not see fit to show us why.

"Anarchy sounds so primitive to me. " But does not suggest why.Instead MITRS relies on recived orthadoxy.

"It would work for about a week" this ignores history.Seeing as how MITRS previously claimed to be an authority on anarchism, it can only be willful ignorance.Ingorance Is Strength.

"Then things would go wrong"

such as?
and why would we be able to fix them?

"Otherwise, one group or person with more power will take control"

where would this power come from? would people really just allow them too once they'v tasted freedom?

"I know many people who would just sit around and do nothing all day if they could. "

Bill Hick : "yeah i could get up a 6 am and go to a job that does not inspire me creatively.....................Or i could get up at noon....and learn to play the sitar!"

Bill is talkin bout dope but the the quote works.People (me and you included) don't want to do shity pointless jobs that mean nothing to no one bar a minority of shareholders and execs.
Most people don't mind doing things they like or see the need for.You may not jump for joy at the prospect of washing your smalls but you realise it must be done and therefore do.
The idea of slaugtering cattle does not make me sing but the need for food will comple me to do it.
The handy men i know enjoy their work and most spend theur free time making and fixing stuff.Are you suggesting that in freedom people will just stop doing things they enjoy and do for lesure?
Pretty big stretch of the imagination surely

"Motivation for me, is knowing that we have a goverment or a dictatorship to run all of the things that the people are not capable of handling in the name of the people themselves"

so wait hang on.You are motiveated by an opressive force treating you like a child?
Were you a good student in school per chance?
Or did you go to Cadets a couple of time to often?
ah well.Slavery Is Freedom.

"A group of people cannot run themselves. "

has a group of you ever organised going to the pub? Have you ever organised a poltical action of more than one person? Have you ever been in the been in a family house about 8 o'clock?
If anyone can answer "yes" to these questions MITRS argument is demostraitably false.

"in my eyes, anarchy is the end of human existence rahter than the end product. "

moveing on from recived orthadoxy to mass hysteria now...

"If you really want to convine me, explain to me how things will be run in anarchy and how criminals will be delt with. Will there be angry "mobs of the proletariot" to attack thiefs and killers with knives and pitchforks?"

these are true entry level question.You have not read anything of relevence about Anarchism.Even the anarchy FAQ might help you but i would suggest finding some decent books on the subject.And maybe just think outside of what you have been told is so.
If i have time tomorrow i will help you .

respect,
Chris





(Edited by evil chris at 3:22 am on June 25, 2002)


first off I apologize if I tend to be cocky and think that I know everything about anarchy. I don't

You make some valuable points and I have listend to them but I just do not agree with them. I Am listening to you, regardless of what you believe. You make sense However I just do not agree with you at all. It is true that you don't have people waking you out of bed to make you work. But if you knew you didn't have to work, would you? I wouldn't.

Government does many things for us like cleaning up streats, making streets, and over all just making our community a better place to live in. We can't do these things on our own. I don't go into detail at the moment as I have to leave but I will be more than happy to argue with you later. I actually enjoy hearing what you have to say. I will give you many details later on my feudalist beliefs but for now I must go.

p.s I apologize for appearing as if I know all. i don't mean to be a smart ass. please forgive. I will be more than happy to change my mind about anarchy when you give me some good reasons to convince me first.

(Edited by man in the red suit at 4:46 am on June 27, 2002)

[evil chris]

shit MITRS no problem man!
If it appears i am riding you hard it is because with the state the world is, clarity and accuracy in what we are trying to achive when in actions against the enemy or in debate with each other, is a paramount.
I'm sure that with the urgencey of the situation you will forgive me for going for the juglular.
Also please don't take it as a personal attack.I just crackin on your belifs.
I'm looking forward to seeing your full reply.

thanks man,
chris

[evil chris]

will you not be replying then?

[ILoveShrub]

I've been working a lot latley. But trust me my friend. I will reply. I just have been busy. And I want to reply to the best of my abilities.

Viva

[antieverything]

It's not as if anarchy would be all kind and fuzzy and utopian. If you don't work, what makes you think that you will eat? If the community needs a road, they build a road...you don't need a state to do these things.

Oh, and everyone should go over to http://flag.blackened.net and read the anarchist faq's...they will answer alot of your questions!

[revolutionary spirit]

Ok if you believe Anarchisim and that it will happen after communism then my adivce is not to bother arguing anarchisim but concentrate of winning Socialism.For if you believe Anarchisim come then you'd have to wait for socialism and communism to of done their job.So to conclude leave Anarchisim to fate,u'll never know if it'll happen in ur life,so concentrate on Socialism if you believe Anarchisim is the end product.Least you can die knowing you tried to quicken the process by fighting for Socialism.

[antieverything]

I agree with Marx up to a point but I don't think that the shift will take all that long. Once the workers sieze power, we would have something resembling anarcho-syndiclism (read about the IWW) and soon the global markets will fall away, leaving us with true anarchy.

[evil chris]

oh dear.Think i fell for MITRS's debate avoidance tactic number 3 : "I'll answer latter" and then not.

Well i got work today but when i come back i'm going to have a crack at you last post.

[Nic8]

You say that society must go from capitalism to socialism to communism to anarchy.
Isn't anarchy the same thing as communism? After the socialist man has been created and the state withers away, you enter into communism, a stateless and classless society. How does that differ from capitalism?

[Red Anarchy]

Quote: from the anarchist on 10:42 pm on June 23, 2002
Like marx said: "anarchism is the ultimate stage of comunism"!

When did he say it?

[evil chris]

no eveidence of Socialists ever even concidering "withering away the state" when they've been in power.
Power tastes too good.
Power is the end in itself.