any vegitarians here? - if you are one sign with pride

[hXcPetey]

I am vegitarian (boardering on veganism i.e. no milk but i eat cheese)

reason:meat iz merder

[Reuben]

i will sign with pride comrade

[Mac OS Revolutionary]

So if a lion, for example, kill a cow in the wild, That is murder?

[LeftoverAnimal]

I am a vegetarian, i dont like meat because it scares me to think that i am consuming the parts of a once living, roaming (unless it is couped up, which is totaly out of order) animal. I dont feel it is a great injustice to eat free-range, but i just dont like to eat a living, conscious animal. But eating animals lower in the food chain is all part of "the circle of life" (Mufassa king of pride rock, fatherr of Simba, brother of scar)

[Kez]

I wish no disrespect to my comrades, but i have a query.

Isnt it "normal" to consume meat? as a animal? but then again u could argue that herbivores are "normal", theres my argument fucked over.

Ah well

[evil chris]

The treatment of animals up to and during their slaughter is absoultly shocking.A constant triumph of trying to squeeze pennies and cut ever corner.
If i were morally consistant i would be a Vegan.Unfortuantly , i am not morally consistant.
I have big meat tearing teeth and a digestive system set up for taking vegetables aswell as meat.I think the meat processing system is fucked but i see meat in the diet as pretty condusive to a good diet and a healthy body.
No meat isn't murder either, unles your idea of murder is skewed, because i am eating as nature intended.

[man in the red suit]

so the animals die, so what? that's the food chain for ya. If I die, I would let anyone eat me, if they thought I tasted good. And what's wrong with milk and cheese? milk and cheese do not come from slaughtered animals. It comes from a cows utter, we don't need to kill the cow to get milk to make cheese. No, we just hook up Mr.cow to a machine which pumps out milk. the cow doesn't mind, he just nibbles on grass and shit while the machine does its job and sucks out the milk. I don't think it savagely sucks out milk while the cow lies in agonzing pain. No. As for meat itself, oh well, they get slaughtered, and it isn't that humane the way they do it, they could try to make a more humane way of killing cows, but that isn't gonna stop me from eating meat.
besides, meat is good for you. :)

[evil chris]

to get milk (and therefore milk,chese,yogart and cream) the cow has to be kept in a constant maternal state, she has to give birth every year, and to make the milk harvest able, the calf is taken away, either for slaugter or for milk stock.
So the milk process could be seen as cruel,depending on your moral consistancy,Not mine though :)

on an intresting side note, because of this process Bull seman is worth more, pound for pound, than both gold and crack.

[man in the red suit]

oh ok, I see. That still doesn't sound bad to me. I don't really think that a cow is gonna give a shit if you take away her calf. I think all she really cares about is whether or not you feed her. And I don't think that they are gonna take away her baby because they want to slaughter it. They probably just dont want it to drink all of the milk before the farmers can get to it.

[peaccenicked]

''The essence of sadism is the passion for unlimited, godlike control over men and things."Rawls.
It is seems to me that Mankind should come into balance with nature more. Vegetarianism seems to me as a balancing force. It is much more productive in terms of food value to use a field for a crop than for the upkeep of cattle.

[Xvall]

I'm wit peace. I prefer vegetables, because it is more efficient, healthy, and there are more vegetables in the world than there are animals. Some say meat is required for protien, but beans are just as good.

[Nickademus]

I am a vegetarian as well but its predominantely for health reasons (and now if i were to even attempt to eat meat i would be quite sick).

yet i also believe that eating meat is natural for humans, in fact its a large reason why there are still humans on this planet. however, the entire animal should be used and there should be no waste. we should only take what we need. for an example of that we should look at aboriginal cultres....they knew of the delicate balance or role we play in the cycle......we, however, have now fucked up that cycle....so unless i go and kill my own dinner, i'm not eating it.

[Lefty]

im gonna stick with Mitrs on this one (gasp) cuz meat tastes good and my family is pretty hippie, so we only buy meat from my uncle (free range, all natural, and he uses the entire cow) and my moms friend (the same) However Iowa has much immigrant labor because of the many meat packing plants and when my baseball team travels to one of those towns, we are always disgusted by the horrible stench that pervades the entire town. On a related note, hog confinements also suck. My family and most of our hippie friends also support free range pork, as well, instead of supporting hog concentration camps.

[Nickademus]

see, i have no problems with that. besides i realized a long time ago that you can't make peole eat a certain way...they have to want to do it.

[Mazdak]

I am not vegetarian but i support all who are
I also refuse to eat seafood, especially lobsters/crab/shrimp
It is horrible how they simply throw them alive into boiling hot water

Anyone hear about waht that nazi Martha Stewart did?
She ripped open a live crab and cut its legs off with a scissor on her show.

[man in the red suit]

it's horrible but it tastse goooood. um um good. And they don't do that to all sea food either. Some of it is frozen to death.

Its horrible and it sucks and all, but that's life. On top of that, I bet you didn't know that lobsters have extremely low nerve connections. They die from internal failures before they experience any pain.

[RedCeltic]

Well, as for meat, I mostly only eat fish and foul. Lobster... is a bit to rich for my income... Crabs however are the greatest free meal one can get where I live!!!

If your poor, and can't afford to eat, you still don't have to starve! At night, go down to the docks with a net or bucket and a flashlight... Shine the light on the crabs hanging on the dock and catch them with your net or bucket, and presto! Free food!

[EDIT:] Martha Stewart is one of those Long Islanders that wouldn't know about this, as she's walled up in her high class, high hedged, exclusive posh South (Make me puke) Hamptons. Oh, and there's more reason to hate her just because of her money and appethy to the rest of Long Island (Typical of our rich leaches) She's famous for being a *****

(Edited by RedCeltic at 10:36 pm on June 22, 2002)

[man in the red suit]

free crabs!!! god dam i wished i lived in Maine or New York. all of thse east coast states have got a lot of seafood huh? I forgot about that. I'll have to get me a bucket and net when I go to New York in 2 weeks.

um um I can hardly wait.

[Dhul Fiqar]

I don't eat meat (for almost 10 years now), but sometimes I have a little fish or baked goods that contain eggs.
Mostly what did it for me is the fact that I find meat revolting, which is probably psychologically caused by the idea of an animal being raised to die in horrible conditions so that I can put money in the pocket of it's slaughterers and eat it's flesh. Just seems gross to me.

More importantly, there would be far less world hunger if people didn't cultivate animals and feed them all the veggies, as animals consume more nutrition in their short lives than you get from eating them.

One thing I juuuust don't get though: Why are birds any different from beef? I really really hate it when people hear I don't eat meat and bring me some chicken "instead". I figured it was some kind of non-veggie mistake but apparently some people only eat birds....

I suppose you could make a similar argument about birds as I do about fish, but the bottom line is that I'd throw up if I tried to eat chicken, since to me it tastes distinctly like other meat.

[hXcPetey]

Quote: from man in the red suit on 12:24 am on June 23, 2002
besides, meat is good for you. :)

NOT TRUE ITS FATTENING AS HELL

[Angie]

I tend to follow my natural inclinations rather than hunger pangs or a certain belief-structure. I would choose something vegetable-based over something meat-based about 75% of the time, as I find that I don't appreciate food tasting all fatty, oily, etc., but if the feeling's there, I don't refuse meat. Nor do I apologise for eating it. I do acknowledge that I apologise for the way the animal was kept and killed, if indeed it were an inhumane practise. Not all cases are, thankfully.

[suffianr]

I think I'm heading in that direction...I seem to be eating much less meat nowadays, not really because of health reasons or whatever, mainly because I'm getting bored of it. Does that make sense?

But I still hate Brussel sprouts! Yecchhh! But Spinach is okay because I wanted to be Popeye the Sailorman when I was a kid...

[j]

I'm not a vegetarian but I don't eat red meat. That means I eat chicken and fish basically. It's true that once you stop eating meat, if you try you'll get sick. I once tried to be a vegetarian but was overwhelmed by a hamburger at a BBQ. I paid for it dearly. I wish I could be a vegetarian but I love chicken in so many ways.

People ask me why all the time and I don't really have an answer. I think that the meat industry is aweful but I still eat chicken. I guess I can say that its because of health reasons but that's not really true. I don't have a real reason other than I don't eat fellow mammals.

Meat is good for you. People that decide that they are just going to stop eating meat and eat only salad and beans are putting themselves at risk. If you are a vegetarian you need to see a nutrionist to make sure you are getting all of your vitamins. (I guess the same is true of those that only eat meat and skip the veggies).

j

[BenJammin]

Yes, meat is good for you. There are many other ways to gain the same sustenance though. And for the people who think they would let somebody eat their own dead body...what would you think if you were kept in cramped pens with thousands of other humans your entire life, crammed with disgusting fattening foods, injected with bone-weakening chemicals and manipulatory drugs, then shot in the head only to appear on somebody's table?

THAT is the problem with eating meat, the pre-slaughter treatment is terrifying and painful for all of the animals. Even many private livestock owners are insensitive and sadistic. I will hunt down an article from PETA about a group of pig farmers who beat their pigs with crowbars and stuck them in their vaginas before holding them down and sawing their throats with small razors.

I hope you enjoy your next ham sandwich. I don't ask that you become vegetarian, but you must think about what you are eating, and what it possibly went through before it was released from its life of horror and agony.

[Michael De Panama]

I'm a vegetarian.


Quote: from TavareeshKamo on 12:07 am on June 23, 2002
I wish no disrespect to my comrades, but i have a query.

Isnt it "normal" to consume meat? as a animal? but then again u could argue that herbivores are "normal", theres my argument fucked over.

Ah well

If you justify eating meat simply because it is "normal" as an "animal", then you must also justify the complete abandonment of any other technological achievement. This includes your computer, your television, your books, your music, your toilet paper, your car, your clothes, even the ability to create fire. If you justify the consumption of meat simply because it is the way of the primitive beast, then go off and carry on the life of a primitive beast. Agriculture cultivation itself was the single most important cause of the birth of civilization as we know it.

[El Che]

I like meat.

[RedCeltic]

I have no problem with people becoming vegetarians; many of my friends and relatives are such. However what I do have a problem with is the attitudes some people seem to develop.

I was visiting a friend’s coven in Rode Island for a Samhain (Halloween) ritual in 1996, when for the feast I was asked to carve up some meat for the group. The whole time I was cutting the meat, my friend Khristine was playing up her little antics and saying things like, " Ohhh how disgusting! Just think if you cut off Lisa's leg and cooked it up and are now cutting her flesh off from the bone! How do you think the animal feels? Etc..."

If it makes you feel better about yourself, than by all means, don't eat meat, but please! Don't ruin my dinner.

You do realize that no matter how far removed you are from the natural world you will always be part of it. You may think that your being "sophisticated" or more highly "evolved" however the reality is that all things die and are food for other things. It's part of the natural cycle of life my friend.

[pastradamus]

haha vedgiterians! yummy yummy i got lamb in my tummy!

[Angie]

Regarding the comment about eating meat being animal-nature, etc., I personally feel that primitive man could well have converted back and forth between being a vegetarian and a meat-eater. And that it would have been perfectly natural for them to have done so.

I've witnessed for many years that people change their eating habits naturally throughout the year. During hot weather, people tend to eat lighter foods - salads, perhaps a fish if they particularly liked meat. For the most part, meals are often heavily vegetarian. People eat less in general, and the act of eating heavy meals ("peasant food", as my lot affectionately call it) leaves people feeling sluggish more often than not. But during the colder weather? Proper meat dishes are more common (as opposed to the aforementioned salads, which often don't quite feel filling enough) - my own conclusion is in relation to the fat content of such dishes - the body's attempting to follow it's natural inclination, that being to store fat so that it may survive the cold.

So in conclusion I would have to say no - I don't feel that being vegetarian or a meat-eater should be determined by claiming one symbolising an animal-nature more than the other.

Both appear, to me at least, to be rather equal. And perfectly logical.

[psycho chicken]

in australia in summer meat is eaten just as much, nothing like a bbq, a beer and a nice summer day.

i'm obviously a meat eater, i figure if our teeth are made for eating meat i might as well. i prefer meat that i know how it's been killed, game meat being an example.

i have nothing against vegitarians, though i dont like the ones who try to impose their views on me, or as posted, those who ***** when people eat meat around them.

[peaccenicked]

Och! Man Vegetables are much more fun. Flicking peas and drawing happy faces in mashed potatoes. Meat is sad, poor lambs.
Any six year old can tell you and they know.

[Mazdak]

I ***** when anyone tries to order lobster or crustaceans at restaurants. it isnt just the inhumane cooking, but the way the lobsters are packed into tiny tanks and have their claws tied up. They are literally forced to sit on top of each other. I could never look at a cook the same way knowing he took the think and dumped it into boling water.

[RedCeltic]

Mazdak:

It is interesting that you care so much for crustations but wish for the mentaly handicaped to be put to death.

[BenJammin]

I'm tired of the "natural foochain" crap. Very few vegetarians preach it, and those who do need to be discouraged. It's a cause that we fight for. It's a movement, meaning if enough people get involved we will be doing what we see as good for everyone.

[Kilian]

I have been a vegetarian for about 3 years. And Im thinking about becoming a vegan

[Zippy]

I'm 75% vegetarian, but my Mum refuses to cook seperately for me and my Nan won't even accept my opinion, so i'm still fed meat. I'll eat it when its infront of me, and i refuse to eat cheap meat like burgers or sausages, but if i have the option then i will go vegetarian.

I know an Vegan-Anarchist who sees animals as equals. He says that until the human race stop thinking of themselves as better than other species, so far above them that they can eat them when they have alternative forms of food, we can never see other people as equals. He has some very interesting ideas. :)

Zippy.

[ID2002]

I'm Buddhist...but I'm not vegetarian. Though, I do prefere vegetarianism as a life style. I understand the concern with the treatment of animals. But I can do little about my health condition.

....for health reasons I can't be fully vegetarian/ vegan.

[Mazdak]

Zippy- interesting ideas. Good ones.

[RedCeltic]

I know of two vegans in New York City that had their child taken from them because they almost killed it by feeding it nothing but fruits and nuts. The child was badly malnurished.

(Edited by RedCeltic at 10:41 pm on July 3, 2002)

[nvader]

I like meat. I eat meat to get amino acids or the building blocks of life. If i didnt get my protien from meat, id have to use supplement, and id rather get my protien naturally than artificially, i cant say i dont care about the animals, but there probably the last thing in my mind when im eating there carcass

[I Will Deny You]

Quote: from Zippy on 2:39 pm on July 3, 2002
He says that until the human race stop thinking of themselves as better than other species, so far above them that they can eat them when they have alternative forms of food, we can never see other people as equals.
Why stop there? Why only treat animals as your equals when you can treat all life forms as your equals?

ANTI-BACTERIAL SOAP IS MURDER!

Lindsay

[RedCeltic]

Oh, If you put other living things above humans than you must also agree that Triclosan is murder!

Triclosan, a common antiseptic used in household products such as toothpaste skin creams, and deodorants, kills the parasites responsible for malaria and toxoplasmosis, even at very low concentrations.

Triclosan has been used as an antiseptic since the 1960s. It blocks an enzyme, known as "FabI," that bacteria need to manufacture the fatty acids used in cell membranes. Because animals possess a very different set of enzymes, triclosan does not interfere with this process in humans. This has led to its widespread use in over-the-counter preparations used on the skin or in the mouth.

Just think of the billions of germs killed every day by people when they brush their teath! If they did this to fuzzy bunnies people would all be protesting against Crest toothpaste.

[Zippy]

Quote: from I Will Deny You on 5:33 am on July 4, 2002
ANTI-BACTERIAL SOAP IS MURDER!
I doubt he would go that far, but some of his ideas are that extreme. He is weird, and i don't agree with him all the time, but at least he is interesting. ;)

Zippy.

[Michael De Panama]

All living things with a conscience, dummy. All living things with a central nervous system. All living things that can actually feel pain when you kill them. That's why we're VEGETARIANS. We eat vegetables. Vegetables are living. Vegetables, however, do not have a functioning brain that will commute to them any form of pain once plucked from the earth. Therefore, this is absolutely in no way inhumane.

[I Will Deny You]

Quote: from Michael De Panama on 10:27 pm on July 4, 2002
All living things with a conscience, dummy.It was a joke, dummy. (I actually do wash my hands.)

Lindsay

(Edited by I Will Deny You at 12:25 am on July 5, 2002)

[deadpool 52]

http://www.bladegash.net/forums/images/smilies/newlaugh.gif Nice.

So your reason for being a vegatarian is because it makes other animals feel pain?

[Felicia]

Facts(If my memory serves me correctly):
Your average meat-eater lives off of 3 1/2 acres of land per year (for food,etc)

a vegetarian= 3/4 acre per year

a vegan= 1/6 acre per year

[Michael De Panama]

Quote: from deadpool 52 on 6:20 am on July 5, 2002

http://www.bladegash.net/forums/images/smilies/newlaugh.gif Nice.

So your reason for being a vegatarian is because it makes other animals feel pain?

That, and the fact that the thought of consuming rotting dead flesh disgusts me.

[RedCeltic]

Quote: from Michael De Panama on 11:56 pm on July 6, 2002

Quote: from deadpool 52 on 6:20 am on July 5, 2002

http://www.bladegash.net/forums/images/smilies/newlaugh.gif Nice.

So your reason for being a vegatarian is because it makes other animals feel pain?

That, and the fact that the thought of consuming rotting dead flesh disgusts me.

Michael: If you want to be a Vegie I don't have a problem with that. However I fail to see why you insist on having this snobby attitude about it.

Humans don't eat rotting flesh, they would get food poisoning if they did.

[Fatos Locos]

Ok, this is ym view on it, correct me if I'm wrong.
Ok, most animals that are eaten by humans live on farms that produce (<- don't know the correct word for it :( ) the animals to be consumed. So let's say, there are 10 million people on earth. With 1 big farm. The farm makes 100 million cows a year to be eaten. So that's 10 cows per person a year. 100% of the cows are being eaten. But if 5 million of the 10 million people on earth become a vegetarian, the farm will produce to much cows. So the farm will start produce lesser cows. So the farm will now produce 50 million cows to be eaten. And offcourse all cows are eaten and so still a 100% of the cows are eaten.
Conclusion:
no vegetarians - 100% is eaten
50% of population vegetarian - 100% is eaten
This is my view on it but like I said before correct me if I'm wrong about it, maybe I'll be a vegi myself then :-).

[Michael De Panama]

Snobby? How am I being snobby? I'm not telling you meat-eaters that you're wrong. I'm giving you the reasons I became a vegetarian. My point of view. In no way am I being snobby.

It really annoys me when meat-eaters complain about the arrogance of vegetarians, yet they fail to realize how much more arrogant meat-eaters are. You may get your little "that's disgusting" here and there, but almost every time I mention I'm a vegetarian some fat jolly redneck will immediately shout something along the lines of "Whaaaaaat? You know what you need to do? Ya need to cut off a cows head right off his sholders and then bite into his fleshy bloody face! It makes ya a MAN!"

[deadpool 52]

There are ways to kill animals and not have them feel pain.

[Michael De Panama]

How would you like it if your sole purpose for existing in this world is to be killed and served to Yolanda Fatbody on a plate in Denny's?

[RedCeltic]

Quote: from Michael De Panama on 1:17 pm on July 7, 2002
Snobby? How am I being snobby? I'm not telling you meat-eaters that you're wrong. I'm giving you the reasons I became a vegetarian. My point of view. In no way am I being snobby.

It really annoys me when meat-eaters complain about the arrogance of vegetarians, yet they fail to realize how much more arrogant meat-eaters are. You may get your little "that's disgusting" here and there, but almost every time I mention I'm a vegetarian some fat jolly redneck will immediately shout something along the lines of "Whaaaaaat? You know what you need to do? Ya need to cut off a cows head right off his sholders and then bite into his fleshy bloody face! It makes ya a MAN!"


I'm sorry Michael I was out of line on that one. Just that the thing about eating rotting flesh seemed to me a bit over dramatic.

I have great respect for people who become vegetarians and half of my family are. I agree that most "Meat eaters" are more arrogant to vegetarians than the other way around.

[Michael De Panama]

Well, I respect you too, RedCeltic.

[Brian]

I have have no problems with Vegetarians,as long as they don't push there ways on me.


I don't see why people are grossed out when Vietnese eat dogs,yes it is pretty sick but people in India think people who eat cows are inhuman.Its just how you look at things really.


(Edited by Brian at 11:29 am on July 8, 2002)

[deadpool 52]

There is nothing with humane killing, that is a sad reason, "well put yourself in their shoes" you are assuming that we are the same, which is vastly wrong.

[I Will Deny You]

Quote: from Michael De Panama on 8:15 pm on July 7, 2002
How would you like it if your sole purpose for existing in this world is to be killed and served to Yolanda Fatbody on a plate in Denny's?
If I was a fat cow, I wouldn't have any idea that my sole purpose for being alive was to be eaten. I haven't seen too many cows pondering the meaning of their existence lately.

Lindsay

[AsThMaxX]

Quote: from hXcPetey on 9:46 pm on June 22, 2002
I am vegitarian (boardering on veganism i.e. no milk but i eat cheese)

reason:meat iz merder


i dont get the part where you cant eat milk but can eat cheese..
errr...how is cheese made?!?!?!
well..ive never heard of that type of vegetarianism YET!

[deadpool 52]

Quote: from I Will Deny You on 12:52 am on July 10, 2002

Quote: from Michael De Panama on 8:15 pm on July 7, 2002
How would you like it if your sole purpose for existing in this world is to be killed and served to Yolanda Fatbody on a plate in Denny's?
If I was a fat cow, I wouldn't have any idea that my sole purpose for being alive was to be eaten. I haven't seen too many cows pondering the meaning of their existence lately.

Lindsay


Exactly.

[Xvall]

People dont' eat Cows much in India. The cow is sacred in the Hindu religion.

[boadicea88]

Quote: from Michael De Panama on 9:56 pm on July 6, 2002
That, and the fact that the thought of consuming rotting dead flesh disgusts me.


I'm a vegetarian too, and did you all know that meat begins to decompose immediately after death? Right away, it's not strong enough to make you sick, but it's there and growing happily. Ain't it dee-licious! Bon appetit!

[elCHEvive]

The whole entire meat process disgusts me. That is why I'm a vegetarian. that and the fact that eating somethign that once walked around in a small enclosed area is sickening.

[Dhul Fiqar]

You guys summed it up beautifully already, but I add my name to the list of comrades that don't eat meat because it simply disgusts them. I haven't eaten meat for about 9 years, but I have had some fish from time to time in that period. For some reason fish doesn't disgust me in small amounts.

--- G. Raven

[Comrade Revolution]

i'm a vegetarian too.. but i eat eggs and cheese..
i know that a lot of animals eat meat, and thats how life it is..
but now.. the mankind is abusig from animals.. and why?
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ the funcking money!
and now food it's not what it used to be.. now it doesnt taste nothing.. f***** progress, f****** money!
well..

[canikickit]

I think its completely ridiculous to say its wrong to eat meat.
It's fine to have you're own opinion, and not eat meat if you choose not to, or vice versa, but neither option is "correct" or "incorrect".

the only thing which stops me from eating cows is the fact that it smells and taste like slurry, to me at least....

what about fish? I know people who claim to be Vegetarians and eat fish....? Rastafarians eat fish...? I like fish.

[boadicea88]

No-one said eating meat is wrong, we just said it is disgusting. Which it is. For myself however, since I'm a Hindu, eating meat IS wrong. But that's me.

As far as I can remember, there's lacto-ovo vegetarians (like me)......... oh, hell- can't remember any more besides true vegetarian (no meat, no fish, no poultry, etc) and vegan (no animal products at all). I'd say that if your friend eats fish, then s/he isn't really vegetarian. BTW, fish absorbs a lot of pollution.

Or whoever.

(Edited by boadicea88 at 8:58 pm on July 26, 2002)


(Edited by boadicea88 at 8:59 pm on July 26, 2002)

[RedCeltic]

Sprouts are disgusting, spinach is disgusting, Cauliflower too..

but, a nice jucy piece of roast beef? mmmmm yummy!!

Damn dude, I'd take a pourter house steak over a plate of collar greens any day of the week!




(Edited by RedCeltic at 7:56 am on July 27, 2002)

[stick person]

Hey, a mess of collards is excellent stewed up with fatback.

Whether a food is disgusting or not is personal opinion, and not a fact. Tofu, to me, has got to be one of the world's most disgusting foods--rotted beans, ferchrisakes.

As for animals cooped up in feedlots and produced in an "industrial" manner, yes, that is inhumane. No sense in torturing the beasties afore eating them, besides which that sort of harsh treatment makes for worse quality meat. But if you really want to see a return to free-range meats, you have to keep eating meat. You just have to make it a point to eat only guaranteed free-range, grass-fed critters. This is more expensive, and will reduce the amount of meat eaten while at the same time actually promote humane practice against industrial practice.

[Fires of History]

I agree that people should be allowed to eat whatever they choose. But a time will come when there won't be such massive amounts grain and water (and land) to raise cattle, and beef becomes a sincere- and rare- luxury (no pun intended). The world's taste for meat simply isn't sustainable. So it really becomes a question of when is the best time to modify (and lessen) our diets? Now? Or when we are forced to from lack of resources?

I find a lot of people arguing with me about how humans 'naturally' eat meat. Sure, yes or no, who cares? We have moved beyond the bounds of the natural anyway, and the way we have spread like a virus against all that is natural makes that point null and void in my opinion.

I see no morality in eating meat or not, and if people continue until the end of human history that would be fine with me. But the high amounts of its consumption need to be addressed...now, for the Earth and for our health.

Let's not forget also that the next McQuarterPounder you see (or whatever it's called) came straight from bulldozed rainforest to make way for the rising demand for cattle. When we're willing to plow down rainforests to ensure cheap meat for the West's fast food lifestyle...that ends the discussion for me anyway.

And Boadicea88, I agree with you that fish contain pollutants, but unless you eat strictly organic so do grains, fruits, and veggies. I like fish on occasion, and I love tofu- it actually contains complete proteins. But sushi by far is the best :)

Eat what you want, please do, but just keep in mind everything that went into every bite.

(Edited by Fires of History at 11:04 pm on July 27, 2002)

[Fires of History]

Quote: from I Will Deny You on 7:52 pm on July 9, 2002
I haven't seen too many cows pondering the meaning of their existence lately.


That too could be said about a lot of humans.

Many species live in varying levels of 'consciousness.' Elephants can remember you a decade from now, and they can even identify the bones of dead elephants that used to be in their herd. Dolphins can recognize themselves in the mirror, and it is believed they have a rudementary language. Whales speak to each other across oceans, and chimpanzees build tools out of sticks to gather ants.

What I find unsettling is the idea that we humans have some priviledge to dominate every other species. That somehow we have the right to exploit any species that has something we want. This mindset has not only led to the extinction of many species, but in my view it reinforces the dominator model.

Animals are the ones that aren't stupid enough to live beyond their means, selfish enough to think they exist above the web of life, foolish enough to try to live outside of nature- all things humans have forgotten.

(Edited by Fires of History at 11:25 pm on July 27, 2002)

[canikickit]

anyone who says its wrong to eat meat is mistaken and misguided...

[boadicea88]

OK. Here is all i could type out of a pamphlet on veganism from Vegan Outreach: (in like 6 parts. OK, not that many.)

PART ONE:

Competition to produce inexpensive meat, eggs, and dairy products has led animal agribuisness to treat animals as objects and commodities. The worldwide trend is to replace family farms with 'factory' farms: warehouses where animals are kept in crowded pens or restrictive stalls. Large numbers of beef cattle, dairy cows, pigs, chickens, and turkeys are raised under such contitions,

The federal Animal Welfare Act excludes farmed animals, and most state anticruelty laws exempt standard agricultural practices. These practices include branding, castrating, dehorning, debeaking, and tail-docking- procedures ofted performed without anesthesia.

Many people believe that animals raised for food must be treated well because sick or dead animals would be of no use to agribuisness. Bernard Rollin, PhD, explains that it is "more economically effecient to put a greater number of birds into each cage, accepting lower productivity per bird but greater productivity per cage...individual animals may'produce', for example gain weight, in part because they are immobile, yet suffer because of the inability to move...Chickens are cheap, cages are expensive."

In an article recommending space be reduced from 8 to 6 sq. feet per pig, industry journal Natinal Hog Farmer suggests that "Crowding pigs pays" for overall productivity.
BIRDS:
In the US, virtually all farmed birds are raised in factory farms. Under these4 crowded, stressful conditions, chickens peck each other. To combat this, the workers cut off the ends of the hens' beaks with hot knives, causing severe pain for weeks. Some birds are not able to eat after being debeaked and starve. In poorly ventilated buildings, manure fumes excaberate respiratory infections and can cause eye infections and other diseases.

EGG-LAYING HENS:
The average laying hen has less than half a square foot of floor space in which to live her intire life. These conditions lead to lameness, bone brittleness, osteoporosis, and muscle weakness.

In 1888, the average hen laid 100 eggs per year; in 2000, it was 257. When her production declines, a US hen is either slaughtered or "force-molted"- deprived of food and water for several days in order to shock her body into another laying cycle.

Egg-laying hatcheries don't have any use for male chicks; they are killed by either suffocation in plastic bags, decapitation, gassing, or crushing.

Bessie's Real Life:
People commonly believe they do not hurt a cow by drinke=ing her milk. However, it is unprofitable to keep cows alive once their milk production declines. They are usually killed at 5-6 years of age, though their normal life span is 25. Thus, dairy consumption leads directly to the slaughter of cows.

USDA statistics show that in 1940, cows averaged 2.3 tons of milk per year. DEspite large surpluses, Bovine Growth Hormone (BGH) was approver in1993; by 1999, the average was 8-9 tons per cow. Some BGH treated cows have produced more than 30 tons of milk in a year. High milk production leads to udder ligament damage, lameness, mastitis, and metabolic disorders.

Dairy cows rarely get to nurse their young. One-thier of male calves are slaughtered immediatly, while 40% are raised for "special- fed veal". These calves are normally kept in individual stalls, chained by the neck on a 2 to 3 foot tether for 18 to 20 weeks. They are then slaughtered. Transport:

The stress of transport causes all farmed animals to lose at least 3% of their weight from urination and defication, mostin the first hour. Crammed together, they must stand in this excretement while exposed to extreme weather conditions in open trucks, sometines freezing to the trailer.




That's all I could type tonight, and I apologize for all the typos. Stay tuned. I'll try to get some more in tomorrow sometime.


(Edited by boadicea88 at 10:11 pm on Aug. 2, 2002)


(Edited by boadicea88 at 11:30 pm on Aug. 2, 2002)

[oconner]

I am a veggie, and I am proud :)

[boadicea88]

OK. It's tomorrow, and I'm back. Whoopie.
So,

PART TWO:

These standard agricultural practices can result in "downers"- animals too sick or weak to walk, even when shocked with electric prods or beaten. Downers who survive transport are dragged by chains to slaughter or to "deadpiles" where they are left to die.

What About Fish?

An Institute of Medical Ethics (UK) panel tentatively concluded that fish feel pain. Patrick Bateson, a panel member, wrote, "Few people have much fellow feeling for fish even though many fish are long-lived, have complicated nervous systems, and are capable of learning complicated tasks."

Each year approximately 80,000 dolphins and thousands of other marine mammals are snagged in fishing nets worldwide. Most die. Industrial fishing depletes marine food webs, seriously damaging ocean ecosystems.

Wildlife:

USDA APHIS' Wildlife Services and livestock producers kill wildlife to protect farmed animals. Having eliminated native populations of wolves and grizzly bears, federal government hunters now kill about 100,000 coyotes, bobcats, feral hogs, bison, and mountain lions each year. They are shot, caught in steel-jaw leghold traps or neck nooses, or poisoned with cyanide.

IF SLAUGHTERHOUSES HAD GLASS WALLS...

If they survive the farms and transport, all egg-laying, dairy-producing, and wool-producing animals- wheather factory-farmed or free-range- are slaughtered.

Federal law requires that mammals be stunned (rendered insensible to pain) prior to slaughter (EXcluding kosher and halal slaughter). Common methods are:
a) Captive bolt stunning- a "pistol" is set against the animal's head and a metal rod is thrust into the brain. Shooting a struggling animal is difficult, and the rod often misses its mark.
B) Electric stunning- Electric current is used to produce a grand mal seizure, then the throat is cut. Temple Grandin, PhD, states, "Insufficient amperage can cause an animal to be paralyzed without losing sensibility."

The USDA oversees the treatment of animals in meat plants through food inspectors. Arthur Hughes, Vice Chairman of the National Council of Food Inspection Locals, a union of 6,000 federal meat inspectors, states: "Drastic increases in production speeds, lack of support from supervisors in plants, new inspection policies which significantly reduce our enforcement authority, and little or no access to the areas of the plants where the animals are killed, have significantly hampered our ability to ensure compliance with humane regulations."

Even when problems are reported by meat inspectors, the government often ignores them. For example, no action was taken against a Texas beef company despite 22 citations in 1998 for violations that included chopping the hooves off live cattle.

"Hogs, unlike cattle, are dunked in tanks of hot water after they are stunned to soften the hides for skinning. As a result, a botched slaughter condemns some pigs to being scalded and drowned. Secret videotape from an Iowa pork plant shows hogs squealing and kicking as they are being lowered into the water." [:(]

Although the slaughter of birds is exempt from federal law, electric stunning is normally used to induce paralysis for ease of handling. However, it is not known whether stunning renders the birds unconcious, the shock may be an "intensly painful experience". Each year, large numbers of chickens, turkeys, ducks, and geese reach the scalding tanks alive and are either boiled to death or drowned.

[I'm skipping about half of the pamphlet here, cuz it's too much for me to type, cuz I'm not very fast.]

Peter Singer, Princton University philosopher and author of 'Animal Liberation', has said, "All the arguments to prove human superiority cannot shatter this hard fact: in suffering, the animals are our equals." For any individual who can suffer, the degree of suffering, not the species of the sufferer, is what should count.

"Humans- who enslave, castrate, experiment on, and fillet other animals- have had an understandable penchant for pretending animals do not feel pain. A sharp distinction between humans and "animals" is essential if we are to bend them to our will, make them work for us, wear them, eat them- without any disquieting tinges of guilt or regret. It is unseemingly of us, who often behave so unfeelingly toward other animals, to contend that only humans can suffer. The behavior of other animals renders such pretensions specious. They are just too much like us."

- Dr. Carl Sagan and Dr. Ann Druyan


Alleviating the suffering of others is the essence of veganism and can be embraced by each of us. Regardless of any other beliefs we hold and however else we choose to lead our lives, we can make a conscious decision to act from kindness and compassion rather than habit and TRADITION [readers of the bullfighting/cockfighting thread in Theory will understand my view on this]. Making humane choices is the ultimate affirmation of our humanity.


Vegan Outreach can provide you with copies of 'Why Vegan' [where I got this from] and/or 'Vegetarian Living' to distribute in your area, as well as a 'Vegan Starter Kit' (which includes more health information, recipes, a vegan foods glossary, essays, questions and answers, and a list of other vegan resources).

www.veganoutreach.org


OK, that's done. Tomorrow I'll give y'all some quotes, and then you won't have to read me any more for a while ;) 'Later



-AF

(Edited by boadicea88 at 11:28 pm on Aug. 2, 2002)

[caro]

I'm a proud vegetarian, almost vegan... but I eat eggs... not too often, but I can't say I don't. I also stay away from all types of conservatives and natural/artifficial extracts.

Take care of your body, take care of your world... we'll live longer!

[pastradamus]

yummy yummy i got beef in my tummy & i feel like eating pork!

[ID2002]

caro: you wrote "I also stay away from all types of conservatives and natural/artifficial extracts."

....you mean preservatives....

Yes I would agree that they are harmful to health, and it is hard to stay away from them sometimes. Meat products are usually loaded with Nitrates, Sulphates, and Borates....but some aren't.

[canikickit]

big deal

[boadicea88]

you people are cold. why don't you warm up in hell? canikickit especially

(Edited by boadicea88 at 1:14 pm on Aug. 4, 2002)

[canikickit]

I can't believe you would say such a thing to me.
Every year over 4 million Tortoise eggs are laid on this island, right? When the Eggs are about to hatch the beach is swarming with Gulls and other birds. As the eggs begin to hatch, the Tortoises try and make it to the water without been eaten. Only one (ONE!) out of every hundred (HUNDRED!) make it. That equals One Percent (%!). Do you think the birds are cruel? Should they warm up in hell?
Obviously these 99 Tortoises from every hundred which do not make it are born so as to feed the birds, its all part of the circle of life. Why, why, why, WHY(!), do people think it is "wrong" to eat meat? "Disgusting" I can live with, "I just don't want to" is acceptable, but the idea that the consumption of cows/pigs/sheep/eggs (eggs! for christ's sake)/dogs/cats/rats/bengal tigers(okay, not them) is wrong.....a fuck it I don't even care..I hope that cows become extinct and the sun stops shining. blah, blah, blah...everyone's a critic...

[boadicea88]

Animals don't have a choice. Human animals do.

(Edited by boadicea88 at 6:55 pm on Aug. 4, 2002)

[canikickit]

No, no, no those birds should fry in hell.

[boadicea88]

I quit... ra'aradit u. Ekhorade'er odh.

[maoist3]

In 1999, my communist organization took a vote
on vegetarianism and "animal rights."
Here is what we came up with.

http://www.etext.org/Politics/MIM/wim/cong/vegan.html

[canikickit]

maoist3, do you think Sparrows should be eliminated? Aha, ha ha, ha, ha! Muppet.

[pastradamus]

sparrows are good eating,
YUMMY!

[Mazdak]

Humans claim to be greater than animals. If animals need to kill other animals to eat, it is "instinct" and their "nature." But if humans are so much higher and more highly evolved, then we should be able to live off artificially produced meats(those fake meat patties are really good).

[Anonymous]

Meat generally provides nutrients which are needed for a healthy lifestyle

[Sasafrás]

Is there any particular reason that this is in *Politics*?

[pastradamus]

Yes U should stop eating meat cuz it makes u more like stalin baby...... ;)

[Anonymous]

Hitler was vegitarian wasnt he?

[boadicea88]

Yeah, actually, he was. I'd forgotten about that.

Thanks Mazdak. That was what I had been trying to say, but I just couldn't figure out how to say it.

[KomradeKyle]

I've been vegetarian for a little over a month now, and I can honestly say I've never felt better. I did it for health reasons, not that I feel that "meat is murder", just meat has higher fat content and just excess stuff your body doesn't need. Plus vegetarians tend to live longer.....

Anyhoo, just my take on the subject.

[vox]

"Hitler was vegitarian wasnt he?"

Not really. His doctor recommended a vegetarian diet, but Hitler seemed to like that German sausage a bit too much to follow it.

Now, for my question: what is the relevance of Hitler's diet?

vox

[Michael De Panama]

One step of training in the Hitler Youth was to raise a puppy from it's birth and then kill it once the training was over, to break down people's compassion. Hitler didn't give a shit about animal rights.

[boadicea88]

:angry:

[Eh Guevara]

Im a vegetarian not because I love animals but because I hate plants.Not really but Id be one if it wasnt for the taste cause I started working in a butcher shop and we have a rule called the 10 second rule if you drop something on the floor you have ten seconds to pick it up before you have to throw it out but no one follows it and some of the other guys that work there say this is one of the better shops they worked in. <:{}[email protected]

[Nateddi]

I used to be a vegetarian when i was a bit younger, however my doctor said that it was damaging my body and my blood iron content was dropping very low. I have been eating meat on occasion ever since, almost with guilt. I sympathize with the points depanama and boadicea make, and I even agree that eating meat, especially in excess is a capitalist perversion. Per acre, you could grow dozens of times more potatoes and wheat than raising cattle for beef.

My opinion on being vegetarian is fluctuating, especially considering i am not militant about many my views. i will see where i go with it after i finally move out and go on my own.

[Anonymous]

Quote: from vox on 12:57 am on Aug. 12, 2002
"Hitler was vegitarian wasnt he?"

Not really. His doctor recommended a vegetarian diet, but Hitler seemed to like that German sausage a bit too much to follow it.

Now, for my question: what is the relevance of Hitler's diet?

vox



Its an interesting anicdote. With a reference because this is a discussion on vegetariansim. Answer your question? Are you implying Hitler was gay? Sort of German sausage, snigger snigger?

[Nateddi]

Its a bit surprising that hitler did what de panama said he did.

As far as I knew, hitler loved dogs, and considered himself a moral person. The general german population considered him as a great and moral leader. It surprises me that he would do such a thing to puppies. sad

I am most definitely not condoning hitler in case someone's mind goes off while reading this.

[vox]

I actually first heard that story in connection with the CIA, that it was one of their training methods.

I've not found proof that this is true.

Many stories are passed around, and what Michael said may be true, but absent some independent validation I'm inclined to be skeptical.

vox

[Anonymous]

Yeh, Hitler stole a dog for the British and eventually shot it.

[canikickit]

Quote: from Michael De Panama on 2:16 am on Aug. 13, 2002
One step of training in the Hitler Youth was to raise a puppy from it's birth and then kill it once the training was over, to break down people's compassion.

Its a great idea. I think Hitler had some things about him which deserve respect.

[boadicea88]

You said that just to make us mad, I hope?

[canikickit]

no. I mean Hitler was definitly a complete idiot, and a disgusting human being who deserved to suffer horrible pain and suffering and etc., etc., etc., but he still did come pretty close to taking over the world, y'know, you see these guys in James Bond films all the time Hitler came pretty close. As well I think that thing he did about raising puppies and killing them is cool. He probably didn't come up with the idea himself but it is a good way of breaking peoples compasion down.
Just cos' I think the idea is cool doesn't mean i would condone it, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah...

[Marxist1848]

and you think this idea was "cool" ....why?
maybe because you dont like dogs?
or believe that animals deserve to be treated like disposable shit?
Hopefully you dont...please explain this to me.

[Sasafrás]

Quote: from Marxist1848 on 10:36 am on Aug. 23, 2002
and you think this idea was "cool" ....why?
maybe because you dont like dogs?
or believe that animals deserve to be treated like disposable shit?
Hopefully you dont...please explain this to me.
I think he means that, although Hitler was a damn fool, he had some very intelligent ideas in training his people to be damn fools with him. Ok, I love puppies, but I must admit that the idea of raising a puppy and then killing it later in order to break down compassion is a very good way to do that. It's not nice at all, but it seems effective. People have the most compassion, in my opinion, when they are dealing with animals and babies. So, when dealing with an animal from it's birth, you naturally gain a lot of love and compassion for it and being forced to kill it will definitely make your compassion be destroyed. It's brainwashing, basically. You'd absolutely have to be brainwashed to even be able to kill a dog that you've raised yourself.

[canikickit]

thank you for saving me the bother of explaining myself.