Nazis? Anti-semites?

[Young_&_Radical]

if i will light up israel flag. How will you call me? Nazi? Anti-Semite?

then who are they?

[Young_&_Radical]

Palestinian terrorists?

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Sensible Jews?

[Conghaileach]

Self-hating Jews, obviously. :blink:

(Does that label even make any sense?)

[BOZG]

Neturei Karta (http://www.nkusa.org/)

[Sabocat]

Communism has no future! Let's make something better!

:blink:

[Hot-1]

Orthodox jews. They Beleive that God didn't intend for there to be a Jewish state (Just like orthodox Christians believe that there shouldn't ba a christain country).

http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/

http://www.nkusa.org/

http://www.jewsnotzionists.org/

http://www.jews-for-allah.org/


anti-zionist demonstrators getting beat up in jerusalem:
http://www.nkusa.org/activities/Zionist_Violence/violencepix/7.jpg

[Anti-Prophet]

Burning the Israelie flag is no worst than burning the American or Canadian flag because it does not symbolise all jews. It is a symbol of zionism and the terrorist state of Isreal. Burning the Israelie flag would mean you are againsts both those thing, as i am.

[DaCuBaN]

From the above link, I found what although by no means a "leftist" piece, makes a lot of sense from the position it was written, and the position it opposes:


(The key to peace in the Middle East and why Torah-True Jews are opposed to Zionism)

The following is the text of a talk delivered by Rabbi Yisroel Dovid Weiss at the United Association for Studies and Research Studies (UASR), publishers of the Middle East Affairs Journal. The lecture was part of a round table discussion, held on March 14 2002 and hosted by MEAJ editor-in-chief, Dr. Ahmed Yousef.

My task today is to speak about Judaism and Zionism. Given the current assumptions of the mass media that seems to be a redundant title. Aren’t the two one and the same? Isn’t Judaism Zionism? Aren’t Jews by definition Zionists? This is an impression which is, as I hope will become absolutely clear by the end of this talk, totally false. It is, however, an impression that is today quite widespread, both among non – Jews as well as misinformed Jews.

The correction of the historical record in the case of any falsification is beneficial, for, as is well known, the “seal of the Creator is truth.” In the case of Zionism it is not merely an academic error. It is one that has caused much death and destruction in the past and will only continue to do so in the future, G-d forbid, if it is left uncorrected. In fact, it is my hope and prayer that today’s talk will be the first step of a process which may yet lead to a just solution to the Middle East’s agony or, at least, a
significant easing of its people’s suffering.

Triumph of Falsity
But first we must ask a simple question. Why has the lie, which equates Judaism and Zionism, triumphed? Why, has what is so demonstrably false, captured the citadels of Western public opinion? And, in the end, what can we do about it? History is invariably written by those who emerge victorious from its struggles. In the case of the Zionist/Palestinian struggle of the past century this factor immediately places the Israeli state, its
propagandists and international apologists, in the ideological driver’s seat.

Second, the suffering of the Jewish people in the Second World War in Europe created extraordinary sympathy among the peoples of the earth and it was this sincere and commendable sympathy that has been
incessantly exploited by the Zionist propaganda machine since 1945.

Last, Zionist propagandists are always given to bullying tactics and censorship. It is very helpful in this regard to read former Congressman Findley’s book, They Dared to Speak Out. It is the sorry record of the
immense resources that the Zionist lobby invested in destroying the careers of politicians all across the United States who had voiced some qualms about this nation’s subservience to Israel.

Of course, anti - Zionist Jews of all political and religious orientations have long experienced the lash of the Zionist movement. In 1924, a scholarly Dutch Jew, Dr. Jacob Israel de Hahn, who functioned as a secretary of Rabbi Yosef Chaim Sonnenfeld (1849 - 1932 ) Chief Rabbi of Palestine, (may their memories be blessed) was murdered as he returned from evening prayers outside Shaarui Zedek hospital in Jerusalem. His crime was that he had been involved in discussions with Arab leaders that offered an alternative to Zionist hegemony. His murderers were members of the Haganah, a Zionist, so - called “defense organization.” In fact, Dr. de Hahn may well be described as the first victim of Zionist violence
in the Holy Land.

Yet, outside of a limited circle of anti - Zionist Jews, this cowardly and cold blooded murder is completely unknown.

Equally unknown to the general public was the ease with which Zionists turned on their fellow Jews, as in the sinking of Jewish refugee ships calculated to elicit world sympathy such as the S.S. Patria in 1940 and the
S. S. Struma in 1941 which cost the lives of 276 innocent Jews in the case of the former and 769 in the case of the latter.

More is known about pre - state terror campaigns against Arab and British innocents. Clearly, this was a movement that found human life cheap and public criticism intolerable.

Fortunately, though, Zionism is missing the most potent weapon in any ideology’s arsenal. It doesn’t have the truth on its side.

Thus, we find that, today, despite the power of the Zionist lobby and the subservience, until recently, of most politicians, media outlets and educational settings here in America, to its dictates, the historical blackout is coming to an end.

More and more people are questioning the Zionist version of history. At the United Nations and throughout Europe the questions have already been raised and largely answered. The answers are a variety of criticisms of the Israeli state. Some of these center on Israel’s practices. Others point to its underlying philosophy.

Neturei Karta International has always been in the forefront of those voices that have been raised in opposition to Zionism.

Our opposition has taken us around the world, to Yemen and Iran, to South Africa and Geneva to attend this past year’s UN Conference on Racism (and I believe we have copies available of the talks delivered there).

Our supporters have stood up to Zionist censorship and terror in the streets of Jerusalem, Manhattan, London, Manchester, Montreal and wherever Orthodox Jewish communities may be found. But, we are getting ahead of ourselves. In order to understand the sources of the current pain in the Middle East, we must define our terms. What is Judaism and what is Zionism?

Definitions
Judaism is the faith of the Jewish people. It is rooted in the revelation at Sinai where the Torah was given by G-d to man. The doctrines and laws there revealed to the Jewish people are forever binding. Throughout the
centuries Jewish scholars and saints have explained the Law. Those explanations are also part of our tradition.

This definition of Judaism was universally accepted by the Jewish people until the dawn of the so called Enlightenment in Europe. In the wake of that mass abandonment of G-d, many Jews, as well as many Christians and Muslims around the world, came to reject their faiths.

It was in the spirit of creating a man - made religion that movements such as Reform, Conservative and Reconstructionist Judaism were born. These movements had in common that they rejected some, many or all the
basics of Torah faith.

Exile and Redemption
One of the central tenets of Torah is that the Creator rewards and punishes mankind.

Through many of the Prophetic books in the Old Testament the Jewish people were warned that a serious rebellion against the Will of G-d would result in the most severe of punishments. Unchecked it could lead to the ruin of the Holy Temple in Jerusalem and the exile of the entirety of the Jewish nation.

And, it is here, my friends, in those Old Testament prophesies, that the quarrel between Judaism and Zionism begins.

Eventually the horrors foretold by the Prophets came to pass. Jewry was exiled from the Land. The first exile, also known as the Babylonian captivity, lasted only 70 years. By a series of miraculous events the people were returned to the land. This second entry into the land led to the rebuilding of the Temple. The Second Temple stood from about 2500 years ago until about 1900 years ago, then it too was destroyed. This time the cause was once again the backsliding of the people who were, as
always, held to a very demanding Divine standard.

But the prophecies of doom were accompanied with promises of consolation. The exile would not be forever. There would be years of dispersion, many of them endured under persecution. Yet, there was the promise that the people would yet return to the Land. But this return was not to be under human control. It would be heralded by the advent of Elijah the Prophet and accompanied with many miracles. And, this time, the redemption would not just be for the Jewish people but, rather for all men. All nations would cease to practice war. All would rejoice together in the Creator’s care.

There would be no want or physical deprivation. It would be a time of spiritual brotherhood, all men united in Divine service. Thus, at the burning of the Second Temple, the Jewish people were sent into an exile which extends till today. For two thousand years Jews have prayed for the
end of their exile and the accompanying redemption of the entire world. They were taught by the Prophets and subsequent Sages that their exile was an expiation of their sins. This meant that the only reasonable and
permissible path to end the exile were repentance and prayer.

To suggest that one could use political or military means to escape the Creator’s decree was seen as heresy, as a denial of the Divine stewardship over sin and forgiveness. And, so, as the centuries rolled by the Jewish people prayed and awaited the miraculous events of redemption.

Throughout these long years no Jew anywhere suggested – and this among a people that studied its sacred texts constantly and wrote about them voluminously – that exile could be ended by human means.

The Holy Land was always venerated, of course, and small colonies, almost uniformly devoted to prayer, contemplation and study were established there.

It was only towards the end of the nineteenth century, among Jews far estranged from their faith that the notion began to be put forth that exile was the result of Jewish weakness. Theodore Herzl and a handful of others, all ignorant or non observant of Torah began to set the process in motion that by the end of the next century would have produced untold suffering for Jews and Palestinians.

Rabbinic Opposition
These early Zionists were immediately opposed by the Rabbinic Leadership of that era.

The opposition was based on four assumptions.

1) The very concept of Zionism was a refutation of the traditional Torah belief in exile as punishment and redemption and as dependant on penitence and Divine intervention.

2) The Zionists were overwhelmingly irreligious. There claim to represent the Jewish people before the world was preposterous. How can those who
reject Judaism be Jewish leaders? Their natural instincts were to uproot Torah and its observance.

3) Zionism was woefully unconcerned about non – Jews in general and
the Palestinian people already living in the land. Its heavy - handed policies were sure to cause much pain and suffering and lead world Jewry into needless conflict with the nations of the world.

4) Zionism would cause Jews to be less than loyal to the governments under whose auspices they lived in exile. This might weaken Jewish patriotism and exacerbate Jewish – Gentile conflicts.

Throughout the world Zionists were a minority.

Even those Jews who had lost touch with Torah tradition were able to see that Zionism was a recipe for disaster.

Within the Zionist movement itself a tiny faction constantly criticized both the Labor and Revisionist mainstreams. This small group, associated with the Brit Shalom movement, advocated a bi – national democratic state and was willing to accept Jewish minority status therein. In the words of one of its foremost thinkers, Judah Magnes, Chancellor of Hebrew University, “If we cannot find ways of peace and understanding (with the
indigenous population), if we can only establish ourselves upon the force of bayonets, then our whole enterprise is not worthwhile and it is better that the eternal people should remain patient and wait.”

These were the words of a non – believer but of essential decency. His ideas and those of his small band of followers were cast aside by the Zionist mainstream.

Of course, in the Torah view the very notion of Jewish sovereignty of any kind over the Holy Land is forbidden. We note that even those who desired some degree of Jewish return – saw this – provided they had some basic decency, as something that had to be worked out with the approval of the native Palestinian people.

Zionist immigration poured into Palestine during the twenties and thirties. The British government tried to be all things to all men but their efforts failed. At times the Zionist conquest via immigration became an actual
shooting conquest with acts of terror against Palestinians, British and other Jews becoming the order of the day.

But, despite Zionist machinations, if not for the tragic fate of the Jews in the Second World War the state of Israel probably would never have come into existence.

As stated before, after the Holocaust, the world took its sense of pity for the Jewish people and bestowed it on the Zionists.

Little if any thought was given to the deep and just desire of Palestinians to be a sovereign people in their own land or to the anti – Zionist Jews living therein.

It was as if a man having been chased from his home by a mob comes upon someone else’s else home and decides to chase out its inhabitants and take it over.

Surely the suffering the man has endured at the hands of the mob is not enough for another family to be evicted from their centuries old place of residence.

I have little doubt that if a Palestinian people, sovereign in its own land, would have been asked after the Holocaust, along with the other nations of the world, to take in Jewish refugees that they would have easily
agreed. But they could not be expected to abandon, their homes and property and their very identity to make way for hundreds of thousands of Jewish refugees whose goal was to dispossess them and rule over them.
Throughout the twentieth century a large segment of Orthodox Jews has remained immune to Zionist temptation. Unfortunately, during this same period, some orthodox Jews actually embraced Zionism while others attempted to co – exist with it.

Those who have maintained our faith as it was handed down to us over the centuries have fought Zionism in the Holy Land and throughout the world.

These Jews, many of whose descendants live in Jerusalem to this day, have refused to recognize the Zionist state. They do not vote in its elections or serve in its army. They do not accept any financial support from the government for their schools, thus plunging their schools into a never ending fund raising crisis.

In their view the state of Israel exists in violation of Torah basics. In its daily policies it wars against Torah practice. Its claim to represent the Jewish people is vile and ludicrous. By positing non - believers as Jewish
leaders it desecrates G-d’s Great and Holy Name in public, a very grave sin in the eyes of the Torah.

The pious Jews of whom Neturei Karta is only one of many are seasoned veterans in the anti - Zionist struggle. We, of all people know how hard it is to break through the media black out, especially in the United
States.

Yet, we must break through if there is to be any real peace in the Middle East. We have been informed by our Talmudic sages that any premature attempt to end exile will result in massive bloodshed.

The bloodshed is here. Israel has caused more bloodshed than anyone could have possibly imagined.

Decades before the state the Zionist desire to rule over the land led to riots, assassinations and endless death and suffering.

To this day the death toll mounts. Both hardliners and soft liners have had their hopes dashed. They have both been behind the wheels of government. And both have failed utterly.

Friends, there will be no peace in the Middle East until their is no state of Israel.

The Torah cannot be violated. Our task in exile cannot be fulfilled by trying to end exile by human agitations. Nor can our hopes for redemption be realized in the Israeli state.

Of course immediately part of the solution is, we’d like to see the West Bank and Gaza settlements dismantled. The people living there must leave as soon as is humanly possible.

But, this is only one part of the solution. Yes, the immediate decision in keeping with common sense, is to begin a Palestinian state. But these solutions are only for the interim and only a part of the solution.

The true Torah solution, the key to peace is the immediate return of Palestine to the Palestinians in its entirety including the Temple Mount and Jerusalem.

This would, of course, include a full right of return for all Palestinian refuges That is what elementary justice demands. This is the path of the Torah and of common sense.

The Jewish people have many mitzvos (commandments) to pursue in their exile. Fighting and killing Palestinian children are not among them.

Of course, today, millions of Jews reside in Palestine. Whether some, all or none of them might stay under Palestinian rule is, of course, up to the land’s rightful rulers, the Palestinians.

This will inevitably begin the process of true peace with justice and healing between the Palestinian people and the Jewish people.

In the meantime, though, given that at present many Jews living in the Holy Land are victims of Zionist propaganda what path should be pursued?
For our part the obligation remains steady. It is to educate the Jewish community about the doctrinal errors and practical evils of Zionism.

It is to join our Palestinian cousins in protest against the evils of Zionism. It is to pursue peace with all men and all nations. It is to practice our faith. It is to worship the Creator with humility, with modesty and piety.
But let us go a step further and examine what the impact of Jewish anti Zionism might be on the Islamic world. First, it is important both practically and morally that Palestinian and general Islamic ideology not confuse Zionism and Judaism and by so doing leave themselves vulnerable to the charge of anti - Semitism.

Further, it could well prove beneficial to the Palestinian cause if they would publicize thier good relations with anti Zionist Jews thus undercutting the
stereotype of them in the Zionist dominated media as bigots and baseless haters.

This coalition of anti - Zionist Jews and Palestinians who see the inhumanity of Zionism might well become quite a moral force for good in the world.

In any event, let us resolve to leave here this evening with our mutual moral compasses set right. Let us understand that Torah Jewry is in no way an antagonist of the Palestinian people in particular or of the Islamic
world in general.

The hour is late. The civilian death toll mounts daily. Innocents on all sides suffer.

May it be the Creator’s Will that the state of Israel be peacefully dismantled speedily in our days, that Jew and Palestinian live yet in peace with each other around the world and in the Holy Land and that speedily in our days all mankind may merit the advent of Divine Redemption where G-d’s Kingdom will be accepted.

They may be reactionaries by their very nature, but their goal is good. Having spent a short amount of time over in Jerusalem and talking with people over there, it's quite clear that zionism is as much an "illusion" as the "American Dream".

It pleases me to see others, thoes within the situation itself, see this for what it is. Will they make a difference? Should we support them?

I hope so, and I say yes.

[BuyOurEverything]

if i will light up israel flag. How will you call me? Nazi? Anti-Semite?

then who are they?

Religious fundamentalists incapable of rational thought and completely useless to our movement.

[Funky Monk]

Originally posted by [email protected] 10 2004, 01:24 AM

if i will light up israel flag. How will you call me? Nazi? Anti-Semite?

then who are they?

Religious fundamentalists incapable of rational thought and completely useless to our movement.
How do you jusge them incapable of rational thought? Seriously

[Non-Sectarian Bastard!]

Since when were any religious fundamentalists capable of rational thinking?

[Funky Monk]

Since it became apparent that such generalisations are dangerous.

[Anti-Prophet]

Religious fundamentalists incapable of rational thought and completely useless to our movement.

Would you say the same about the religious fundamentalists fighting the Americans in Iraq?

[BOZG]

Our movement and their movement are entirely different and yes I would.

[Anti-Prophet]

It doesnt matter that their movment is different from ours. For now we have the same goal in Iraq: to get the Americans out. Imagen the world if they were not fighting the American. America would have invaded, taken only a few casualties and moved on to invade another country like Iran or Syria. But thats not happening thanks to the religious fundamentalist. America and American imperialism is now very weak because of the resistance movment in Iraq. Of course im not saying that religious fundamentalism is a good thing but sometimes an enemy of an enemy is a friend.

[BOZG]

Yes, we have the goal of getting the Americans out, but not religious fundamentalism in.

Secondly, do you really think that the resistance movement in Iraq is comprised entirely of religious fundamentalists? The Iraqi people would have resisted American intervention, fundamentalists or not.

[Funky Monk]

From what i have seen the most active participants in the Iraqi resistance have been either religious fantatics or people out merely to profit from chaos.

[BOZG]

From what you have seen? Do you think that the bourgeois media would offer up that the entire resistance was led by plain Iraqi people?

Do you think that religious fundamentalist groups could actually maintain themselves nationally without a quite broad base of support?

[jwijn]

Funky Monk -

Consider:

1) The amount of "religious fanatacism" in Iraq during Saddam Hussein was very small. Saddam himself was secular, and would not have been able to remain in power had fanatacism been so power, that or he simply would have blown with the wind and become a fanatic to retain power.

2) The number of insurgent attacks in Iraq is enormous, with bomb attacks going on at least every week.

3) The number of insurgents it would require to make these attacks

4) Now see #1. Religious fanatacism does not spawn overnight. While Iraq does have religious extremists, it is impossible for even a majority of the insurgents to comprise of these fanatics. Many insurgents are, in fact, small groups of people from a common village or tribe that carry out one, two, maybe three attacks and then dissolve. That is why the attack on Falluja was foolish and a waste of time. That is why during the attack on Falluja the insurgency in Mosul flared up. These insurgents are not suddenly teleporting themselves from hotspot to hotspot, rather it is about common people realizing the US is vulnerable and seizing the opportunity to seek vengeance.

[refuse_resist]

Originally posted by [email protected] 10 2004, 05:11 PM
Yes, we have the goal of getting the Americans out, but not religious fundamentalism in.

Secondly, do you really think that the resistance movement in Iraq is comprised entirely of religious fundamentalists? The Iraqi people would have resisted American intervention, fundamentalists or not.
You're right. It sucks that everyone thinks the resistance in Iraq is made up entirely of Muslim fundamentalist and Saddam loyalist, when in actuallity it's made up of various different factions. The bourgeois media will always try to hype up certain things or change information to make it seem like something else is happening when it really isn't.

[h&s]

While I support the anit-Zionism of this group, the questioned raised is a good one: we all like burning flags (well I like burning anything, so I love burning flags!), but when that flag has a religous symbol on it, should we be allowed to burn it? Isn't burning the Israeli flag just the same as burning any Jewish symbol? I think that for non-Jews burning an Israeli flag will send the wrong message out to Jewish people.
However, anti-Zionist Jews can burn the flag as much as they want!

[Funky Monk]

Originally posted by [email protected] 11 2004, 02:43 AM
Funky Monk -

Consider:

1) The amount of "religious fanatacism" in Iraq during Saddam Hussein was very small. Saddam himself was secular, and would not have been able to remain in power had fanatacism been so power, that or he simply would have blown with the wind and become a fanatic to retain power.

2) The number of insurgent attacks in Iraq is enormous, with bomb attacks going on at least every week.

3) The number of insurgents it would require to make these attacks

4) Now see #1. Religious fanatacism does not spawn overnight. While Iraq does have religious extremists, it is impossible for even a majority of the insurgents to comprise of these fanatics. Many insurgents are, in fact, small groups of people from a common village or tribe that carry out one, two, maybe three attacks and then dissolve. That is why the attack on Falluja was foolish and a waste of time. That is why during the attack on Falluja the insurgency in Mosul flared up. These insurgents are not suddenly teleporting themselves from hotspot to hotspot, rather it is about common people realizing the US is vulnerable and seizing the opportunity to seek vengeance.
You seem to have failed to take into account the extension of religious power which comes with the occupation and the war on terror's religious connotations.

Secondly you have to take into account the influx of foreign religious fanatics which accompanies any insurgence. You need only a small amount of people to raise a banner of defiance before other religious fanatics will flock to the country.

Of course the meda is going to be biased but you have to consider the fact that for the average Iraqi resistance offers very little point to resistance. The people who are going to be fighting are generally fanatics of some sort of disposition.

[dso79]

Isn't burning the Israeli flag just the same as burning any Jewish symbol? I think that for non-Jews burning an Israeli flag will send the wrong message out to Jewish people.

I disagree. The Israeli flag is a zionist symbol and doesn't represent 'the Jewish people'. The zionists have abused the Magen David for their own evil cause.

[The Feral Underclass]

Originally posted by Hot-[email protected] 9 2004, 09:46 PM
Orthodox jews. They Beleive that God didn't intend for there to be a Jewish state (Just like orthodox Christians believe that there shouldn't ba a christain country).
I did not know that.

[Edelweiss]

Originally posted by The Anarchist Tension+Dec 11 2004, 04:03 PM--> (The Anarchist Tension @ Dec 11 2004, 04:03 PM)
Hot-[email protected] 9 2004, 09:46 PM
Orthodox jews. They Beleive that God didn't intend for there to be a Jewish state (Just like orthodox Christians believe that there shouldn't ba a christain country).
I did not know that. [/b]
actually I think they believe that there shoudln't be a Jewish state until their "saviour" has come to earth, but i could be wrong.

BTW: It's very obvious that the Iraqi resistance is led and dominated by deeply reactionary groups and clerical fascists. Of course they have the very right to resist the US troops, no matter who they are, but still it would be very foolish for us as leftists to generally politically support the Iraqi resistance, just for the sake of anti-imperialism and national sovereignty, that has very little to do with a true, emancipated leftist stance and that would be a slap in the face of the Iraqi workers movement, which is as big in Iraq as in nearly no other Arabian nation.

[BOZG]

I would agree that for the most part, the actual resistance, the people with the guns and the bombs are probably made up of fundamentalists but they do not exist in a vacuum. They have a base among ordinary Iraqi people and that is how they sustain themselves. They are not the resistance movement on their own though unfortunately they have taken the leadership. Regardless of their intervention, do you not think that the Iraqi people would have resisted invasion anyway?

[Intifada]

I think the Iraqi resistance is mainly made up of nationalists, with deep religious roots.

BOZG is right in saying that these people are ordinary Iraqis, who are following the leadership of their clerics.

[Anti-Prophet]

Regardless of their intervention, do you not think that the Iraqi people would have resisted invasion anyway?

ok lets pretend that the Americans invade Iraq and for some reason all the religious leaders ask their followers to obey the Americans and tell them its in their best interest to keep the peace. Do you think the resistance movment would be as successful as it is today? I doubt it. Just look at the areas of Iraq where the religious leaders actually are asking their followers not to resist the American occupation, mainly the southern part. Look at the resistance movment there, it simply doesnt exist.

[Edelweiss]

Originally posted by Anti-[email protected] 11 2004, 07:58 PM

Regardless of their intervention, do you not think that the Iraqi people would have resisted invasion anyway?

ok lets pretend that the Americans invade Iraq and for some reason all the religious leaders ask their followers to obey the Americans and tell them its in their best interest to keep the peace. Do you think the resistance movment would be as successful as it is today? I doubt it. Just look at the areas of Iraq where the religious leaders actually are asking their followers not to resist the American occupation, mainly the southern part. Look at the resistance movment there, it simply doesnt exist.
So what? What's your point? As I said, no leftist should just generally politically support the Iraqi resistance just for the sake of anti-imperialism and national sovereignty, that's up to pseudo-leftists and nationalists. Resistance is no end in itself! Let's support the real, progressive forces in Iraq (there are plenty), and oppose clerical fascists and nationalists. I know I'll be accussed of being pro-American now, but that would be just the same, wrong "either you are with us, or you are against us" Dubya logic.

[Anti-Prophet]

A resistance of any kind in Iraq is better than no resistance at all. Not only for the sake of Iraqi national sovereignty but more importantly because it is weakening American imperialism and therefor American capitalism. As long as America is trapped in Iraq fighting the insurgencies they will be unable to "liberate" any other nation that do not see eye to eye with them. If America had encounted insurgencies, of the type we we see today in Iraq, in Afghanistan do you think they would have been able to invade Iraq? Of course not. Im not saying we should hope the fundamentalist insurgence in Iraq become so successful that they create a Iranian style regime in Iraq but lets hope they are successful enough to significantly weaken the imperialists. I do hope that Zarqawi's group and the other religious fanatic organisations eventually get destroyed but i also hope they take down a shit-load of American soldiers in the process.

[Edelweiss]

Originally posted by Anti-[email protected] 11 2004, 11:35 PM
A resistance of any kind in Iraq is better than no resistance at all. Not only for the sake of Iraqi national sovereignty but more importantly because it is weakening American imperialism and therefor American capitalism. As long as America is trapped in Iraq fighting the insurgencies they will be unable to "liberate" any other nation that do not see eye to eye with them. If America had encounted insurgencies, of the type we we see today in Iraq, in Afghanistan do you think they would have been able to invade Iraq? Of course not. Im not saying we should hope the fundamentalist insurgence in Iraq become so successful that they create a Iranian style regime in Iraq but lets hope they are successful enough to significantly weaken the imperialists. I do hope that Zarqawi's group and the other religious fanatic organisations eventually get destroyed but i also hope they take down a shit-load of American soldiers in the process.
Not America is the enemy, it's the cruel capitalist order. If one imperialist nation is weakened, another one gets stronger. Weakening the US does not mean weakening capitalism. The downfall of the US (which WILL come one day!) will surely not mean the downfall of the capitalist system, that is a mistake just too are making. Again, focusing just on national sovereignty only is a BIG mistake us leftists should never make! The ulimative goal is the class- and stateless society, not a co-existence of all kinds of nation states, no matter by whom and how they are ruled. Does it help the Iraqi workers movement if Iraq is ruled by clerical fascists instead of imperialists? Of course not. You are bidding on the wrong horse.
So much for the theory...I can't deny that, on the quiet, I'm happy about all news i'm hearing from Iraq of succesful resistance against the US occupiers.

[Commie Rat]

but americas downfall will be a huge blow to capitalismand while it is weak the fiery phonix of communism will rise from the ashes

[leftist resistance]

The Iraqis are just defending their homeland

Back to the topic..I think a national flag represent a country and the Jews did burn the Israeli flag,so i think it's ok.

Anyway,Semites include Arabs if im not wrong

[Edelweiss]

Originally posted by [email protected] 12 2004, 09:34 AM
The Iraqis are just defending their homeland

Sure, and as I said, they have all right to do so. my point is that we as leftists shoudln't make the fault to geneerally support the Iraqi resistance.

[Anti-Prophet]

Not America is the enemy, it's the cruel capitalist order.

American imperialism is a huge part of the cruel capitalist order and at the moment it is a lot more threatening to the left than islamic fundamentalism (at least in most of the world). That is why anyone who fights against it, whether they are islamic fundamentalists, marxists, or even the weaker imperialist powers, are somewhat useful to our movment because they help weaken our strongest enemy.

The same could be said about these anti-zionist jewish fundamentalists. It is true that they are reactionary but to me anti-zionist jewish fundamentalists are not nearly as reactionary as zionist jewish fundamentalists.

Its better to get your enemies to fight each other than to try and fight them all yourself.

[Edelweiss]

Originally posted by Anti-[email protected] 14 2004, 01:10 AM

Not America is the enemy, it's the cruel capitalist order.

American imperialism is a huge part of the cruel capitalist order and at the moment it is a lot more threatening to the left than islamic fundamentalism (at least in most of the world). That is why anyone who fights against it, whether they are islamic fundamentalists, marxists, or even the weaker imperialist powers, are somewhat useful to our movment because they help weaken our strongest enemy.

The same could be said about these anti-zionist jewish fundamentalists. It is true that they are reactionary but to me anti-zionist jewish fundamentalists are not nearly as reactionary as zionist jewish fundamentalists.

Its better to get your enemies to fight each other than to try and fight them all yourself.
That is a big mistake!!! Especially the part about supporting "weaker imperialist nations"! I consider this not only a very shortsighted statement, but also a deeply reactionary statement. Well of course, America is part of the capitalist order. But as I said, they ARE not the capitalist order, other nations like China, or the EU as a whole are just waiting to fill their position. The American imperialism is without question the most dangerous one currently, but especially if you are not American and living in another western, imperialist nation, the stance to support it against the "big, evil USA" has nothing to do with a communist stance, moreover it's just dumb nationalism. The enemy is (within) your own nation, fight it! Don't get into mindless anti-americanism. That of course doesn't mean not to fight US imperialism by all means, but never by allying with (islamo-)fascists or even other imperialists.

[themanwhodoesnotexist]

peace
im so glad you posted that original poster.....
i always cut and paste ......911 was masterminded by rogue elements in the uSA government and ZIonists ..............
on chat rooms.....
then i bring up the point that their are european Jews who agree with me.....

[Dio]

The U.S. population contributes to its governments imperialistic ventures. Not knowingly of course, however, they cannot be blamed for being tools of propoganda. Israel in its nature was never an imperialist nation, it was merely a pawn for those deem it profitable as a nation that perpetrates state-endorsed terrorism. Therefore Israel the off-shore U.S. military base is spawned to act as a focal point for U.S. hegemony in the middle east. Its population decieved as well.

[Anti-Prophet]

That is a big mistake!!! Especially the part about supporting "weaker imperialist nations"! I consider this not only a very shortsighted statement, but also a deeply reactionary statement.

I never said we should support weaker imperialist nations, i was making the point that sometimes they can be useful to our movment. There is a big difference.

Its been proven a number of times in history that whenever the imperialist nations are busy fighting each other, the bourgeoisie of the nations participating become very weak. A great example is world war 1. If it were not for the German imperialist fighting the Russian imperialist a doubt the revolutionary situation that took place in both Germany and Russian after the war would have emerged. That is one example of how the actions of an imperialist nation did help our movment.


But as I said, they ARE not the capitalist order, other nations like China, or the EU as a whole are just waiting to fill their position.

Where did you get the idea that "If one imperialist nation is weakened, another one gets stronger" anyway? That is completely false. It has happend several times in history where capitalism (and imperialism), on a global scale, have been very weak. The period for 1918-1935 for example. And again this was mainly caused by conflicts between the reactionary forces of the bourgeoisie. Bourgeosie unity is alot more dangerouse than bourgeosie disunity.

[leftist resistance]

Well of course, America is part of the capitalist order.

America is the head of the captalist order.Most capitalists states bow to it(most of the time).A body cannot function without a head.Cut the fish head,and you can make fish head curry

US=evil empire :(
US <-----Bad,no good

[Commie Rat]

I&#39;ve been reading alot about elements of the CIA trains varoius Alqueda opratives to kill soviets and trained the taliban to use wepons are military stratergies in the early years of the Cold War and through the russian invasion of afganistan

seems a dodgy to me can anyone clarify ???

[RedAnarchist]

Al Qaeda ("The Base", or "The Camp") were set up in c1979 by US President Jimmy Carter to get the Soviets out of Afghanistan. This happened and the yanks forgot about their little friends. Unfortunately, Carter effectively gave the insane man a machine gun, and now the world has another serious enemy, alongside Capitalism, its father.

[LuZhiming]

Originally posted by [email protected] 16 2004, 12:32 PM
Al Qaeda ("The Base", or "The Camp") were set up in c1979 by US President Jimmy Carter to get the Soviets out of Afghanistan. This happened and the yanks forgot about their little friends. Unfortunately, Carter effectively gave the insane man a machine gun, and now the world has another serious enemy, alongside Capitalism, its father.
You are totally wrong. The Mujahideen was affectively formed in 1979, when the CIA put the many men together and gave them arms. Osama bin Laden, who probably wasn&#39;t even in Afghanistan in 1979, went into Afghanistan on his own accord independently to oppose the "non-religious Communists." He didn&#39;t even fight them at the beginning, bin Laden was mostly there for financial support in the early days. He later began actually battling the Soviets, and became known as an impressive war hero. The absolute earliest time you can say Al-Qaeda formed was in 1988 when he broke away from MAK(the organization he used to funnel money to Afghanistan) and formed his own organization. Furthermore, these guys would be around whether or not the U.S. ever got involved in Afghanistan, it&#39;s absurd to call them sons of Capitalism.