Trade Unions - to be or not to be

[Revolution Hero]

Trade Unions are the capitalist organizations. I see the danger in their existance, as they split the working class movement into many separate parts. And this makes proletariat weaker. Workers don't realize their unity, they see themselves as the members of different trade unions , with the different interests.
Definitely, trade unions is the invention of the capitalists. Trade unions were made in order to destabilize the working class movement.

What do you think about trade unions?
to be or not to be.....
I prefer the second.

[hobo]

I think trade unions are a weapon of the worker who can't stand up to their bosses alone. I see your point that unions can just end up in factions but thats not the reality. Unions need to be set up in many 3rd world countries to try and bring some sort of protection for the workers rights.
If your interested read this.

The ICFTU’s Annual Survey on trade union rights violations, which covers 132 countries and territories across the world, notes 223 cases of murdered or “disappeared” trade unionists in 2001 (i.e. 14 more than in 2000), with a terrifying record number of 201 assassinations or disappearances in Colombia alone. Over 4,000 trade unionists were arrested, 1,000 injured and 10,000 sacked. The survey identifies the stubborn anti-democratic stance of certain states and fierce competition in the global economy; trends that can only be combated by international trade union solidarity.

Brussels, June 18, 2002:

The cost of the struggle for democracy

The Chinese trade unionist Yao Guisheng, sentenced to 15 years’ forced labour based on totally false accusations, ended up losing his mind after having been beaten and confined to a cell. In China, any attempt to create a free trade union can be rewarded with huge prison sentences and even life-imprisonment, interspersed with unbearable conditions of detention. Burma, where independent unions are forced underground or else risk incurring heavy prison terms, and where the military junta sack, imprison or even torture protesters, is another blatant example of the clear link between increased violations of union rights and the fear of certain regimes of the key role unions can play in helping democracy take root.

Similarly, on the African continent, where there is a serious democratic deficit, the incipient war between the public authorities and the unions has also led to many arrests, intimidation and even the loss of lives. This has been the case in Zimbabwe where three strikers from a steel firm were murdered. But Swaziland is also in the running for the title of African champion of anti-union repression.

The situation has been comparable in Belarus, where President Lukashenko’s consolidation of despotic methods has inevitably led to an aggravation of anti-union repression.
And then there are many countries where the unions are still totally banned, particularly in the Middle East.

The cost of accelerating global liberalisation

On 2 May 2001 in Bangladesh, the General Secretary of the Jatiyo Sramik union, Iqbal Majumber, was shot dead when leaving his office. He was a pioneer within the union movement in Bangladesh and at the forefront of the struggle against privatisation and deregulation.

Throughout the world, workers have been hit hard by the negative impact of the down-turn in the global economy coupled with structural adjustment measures, but where they have expressed their discontent governments have been quick to respond with repression. In Argentina, the “cocktail” of an acute economic crisis, privatisation of public services and unbridled flexibility has thrown thousands of workers onto the streets. The response has been a large increase in strikes and demonstrations, which have in turn led to many violent confrontations with the police.

In Colombia, where over 200 trade unionists were assassinated or reported missing in 2001, amounting to a 25% rise in murders and disappearances compared to 2000, unionists from the public services have been the hardest hit, suffering about 65% of the violations, particularly as a result of their determined stance in political talks on fiscal adaptations and privatisation. The report also condemns the impunity enjoyed by most of the authors of these crimes, as well as the serious flaws in protection programmes for Colombian trade unionists.

In Central and Eastern Europe, though the report notes some legislative improvements on core unions rights, privatisation and liberalisation are associated much too often with violation of union rights. In the Czech Republic, for instance, despite the coming into force of a new Labour Code there has been no let-up in anti-union discrimination. And, like others in the region, the country has had a good share of harassed, sacked, relocated or threatened trade unionists.

When nothing can stop employers…

When trying to set up a union in a textile factory in Pakistan in June 2001, Naddem Dar was intercepted by the owner of the factory. When he refused to give up his plans, despite being threatened at gunpoint, he was tortured. To force the other union leaders to resign, the management threatened to relocate the factory and to hire hit-men to deal with any “recalcitrant elements”.

The report shows that the race for profits and the associated bitter competition on the global market have encouraged employers to disregard laws where possible and to use brutal force where necessary.

In Indonesia, the assistant manager of a car factory in Jakarta paid thugs armed with knives, iron bars and guns to break a strike conducted by 400 workers last March. The result was two deaths and ten people seriously wounded. In several Asian countries, employers have shown no scruples in hiring hit-men, often current or former members of the armed services, to repress or attack their workforce, particularly when the latter go on strike or hold a sit-in. This has been especially common in China, Indonesia and South Korea, a country where more than 200 union leaders were sentenced to prison terms and heavy fines in 2001 and where, at the end of the year, 50 were still languishing in jail.

In Latin America, which has been the deadliest region for trade unionists, some sectors have been particularly strong on anti-union repression. In Costa Rica and Guatemala, the situation is especially bad in the banana plantations (unionised workers have been sacked, harassed or blacklisted, thus losing their chances of future recruitment) and in export processing zones (EPZs). The report notes that the EPZs around the world, which are an advanced post of globalisation, are generally zones where workers have no rights.

When international union solidarity makes a difference…

In Central Africa the union leader Théophile Sony Colé (USTC) was arrested on 17 June 2001 at the airport, on his way back from a union meeting in Nairobi organised by ICFTU-AFRO. The regional organisation alerted a maximum number of regional and international leaders, and this eventually led to his release.

In El Salvador, thanks to the combined pressure of unions, the press and solidarity groups, the workers at the Taiwanese textile factory Tainan El Salvador S.A. managed to gain recognition for their union, the union of textile workers (STIT). This was a first in the country’s EPZs, which are otherwise totally bereft of union rights.

Thailand, Ghana, Belize …Various international campaigns, often orchestrated with other groups fighting for human rights, helped promote the release of imprisoned trade unionists in 2001, as well as the resolving of conflicts, the reinstatement of sacked trade unionists or the recognition of trade unions. The report welcomes all such concrete examples demonstrating that international trade union solidarity can make a difference.


The ICFTU represents 157 million workers in 225 affiliated organisations in 148 countries and territories. ICFTU is also a member of Global Unions: http://www.global-unions.org

[peaccenicked]

The problem with trade unions is that they have a contradictory nature. Sectionalism and economism are the ideological diseases that infect the movement. However the trade union movement is a learning centre
for the working class in struggle and the instrument of the general strike can bring the question of class rule to
the top of the agenda.

[Conghaileach]

A problem with trade unions is that their leaders often get mixed up with the bosses, and usually try to dissuade workers from taking any action such as strikes.

[Kez]

wtf,
Trade Unions are the best thing, and you are a stupid **** for saying they are a capitalist organisation and are vermin for not knowing that most trade union chairmen are communists. Stupid Idiot, i think the rest of the argument has already been summed up for you jackass.

[Conghaileach]

A few days after Danny McColgan was murdered here, workers all over the state decided to call a strike to state that they would not tolerate the sectarian violence. I spoke with one of the postmen that day, and he told me of a union meeting they held. Their union heads warned them not to do it, going so far as to threaten many poeple's jobs, because it would cost the British government money. However, these people's convictions could not be sold-out, and thousands attended the rally.

[RedCeltic]

So would you rather us just work without a contract and take whatever the bosses give us? If you people can't see the value in trade unions and how they have raised the standard of living you need to get your head checked. Granted they are far from perfect, there is a great deal wrong with them, however in the US anyway it's only a refection of anti Union laws that keep them as the weak organisations you attack.

[Conghaileach]

And why are you resorting to personal attacks? "stupid ****", "vermin", "Stupid Idiot", "jackass."

Are you looking to be kicked off the site before you can make your grandiose exit? You didn't even attempt to explain your position.

[deimos]

i think that trade unions are a good thing.trade unions can develop to unions like the eu.Isnt it good to unite europe?The pull down borders?I think because of the eu we'll not have a war in western europe within the next 50 years.

[Kez]

CiaranB, i have utmost repect for u,
and i directed my childish attack on Rev Hero, and was so enraged that i came out with such babble, but the things i called him i dont take back, because of how naive he was in making such a statement.
The guy claims that unions are capitalists WTF

i dont know where teh fuck he comes from but even here in the birth of capitalism in UK, people know unions are NOT capitalist and u have to as Red Celtic sed "get ur head checked", Unions have saved millions of jobs over the years, and have alwayts tried to make a comprise for the workers.

What do you expect? the unions to take over the factories and hold it at gunpoint?
Maybe in the future, but now..not possible.....not yet anyway

[Conghaileach]

I apologise for the confusion, TK.

There are many different types of union. In some, the leaders are basically patsies of the bosses. On others, the leaders are likely Communists as you say.

[I Will Deny You]

Quote: from Revolution Hero on 3:47 am on June 21, 2002
Trade Unions are the capitalist organizations. I see the danger in their existance, as they split the working class movement into many separate parts. And this makes proletariat weaker.The working class is naturally split because everyone performs different jobs! There is always the AFL-CIO. Anyway, while I don't agree with everything that unions have done they have definitely done more harm than good. It's really easy for a 12-year-old to say that trade unions keep the workers down because they tell us not to murder our bosses for an extra 50 cents (not to say that everyone who disagrees with me is a 12-year-old, but you get my point), but class division and inadequate (or nonexistant) health coverage, among other things, would be much worse if it weren't for unions.

Lindsay

[Kez]

*scratches head and wonders if Lindsay reckons im a 12 year old* fuck knows

anyhow, a lot of my older comrades say unions are great, and are the only reason they are still in jobs.
They are often the only ones that connect the workers with the struggle,and without them the struggle is without the working class which is a bit pointless really.

Obviously unions cant always make major winnig cases, it would be in the long run counter productive, i highlight the case of the 70's in the UK, where there were lots of strikes, so nobheads voted in the conservatives who fucked the unions and the workers were twice as fucked.

Think of the union agreements in the long run, smaller and more frequent increases in standards is better than a big hike in which no1 wins.

[RedCeltic]

Trade unions are perhaps more effective in European nations for you don't have to deal with highly restrictive anti union laws. Granted, there are many bad unions that are lap dogs for various corperations. However, again, it is better to be represented than not be represented at all.

I care very deeply on this issue, party because union activism lead me to socialism, and party because my family has such a long history with unions.

Here in New York Trade unions tend to be stronger than in many other parts of the United States. Construction trades for example are 90% organized in New York City. They also have, in the past few years, formed their own state wide political party called Working Families. Socialist? No, but what do you expect in a nation that makes it illegal for communists to hold union offices.

It is often people that have little or no experience in working in trade unions that complain about them. Even among those who are, or have been in unions and would rather work as a SCAB how many of them do you think attended union meetings, participated in bargening, voting on contracts and leaders? How many of them even know where their union hall is?

Yes there are many problems with many unions today. However, I would rather fight to gain the workers more of a voice than just scrap the unions all together and just think of myself rather than the collective.

In the United States, it may seem as if trade unions only support members of that trade and don't actively strike for the rights of other trades. However, this is mostly due to the fact that anti union laws on the books prohibit secondary strikes.

These are a few of the things I believe we need to fight for in the US...

(Note: This is taken from the platform of the Socialist Party USA)

the right of any number of interested workers in a workplace to form a union and bargain with their employer, with no limits on the subjects upon which employees and unions may bargain with employers.

recognizing a union based on cards signed.

the democratic control of all unions by their membership, and independent of employer domination and influence.

organize all workers, particularly workers in the service industries, enlisted personnel in the Armed Forces, and the difficult to organize (including students, home workers, homeless people, prison inmates, and the unemployed).

militant, united labor action including secondary strikes and boycotts.

the right of first-time and part-time workers to full benefits.

the repeal of all repressive labor legislation such as the Hatch Act, the Taft-Hartley Act, the Landrum-Griffin Act, and all the so-called "right-to-work" laws.

WORKER CONTROL

workplaces free from discrimination and harassment based on gender, race, ethnicity, age, sexual preference, or physical or mental disability.

the right of workers to hold shop meetings on company premises, elect their immediate supervisors, and administer health and safety programs through the formation of shop councils.

full disclosure of corporate plans to close and relocate plants, a punitive tax on runaway industry, and compensation for the workers and communities affected by plant closings.

the right of workers, consumers, and communities to information on plant safety, hazardous wastes, toxic substances, and the quality of goods and services.

INTERNATIONALISM

the international organization of labor as the only way of combating the exploitation of workers in a global economy based on the transnational corporation.

international labor standards, including the unrestrained right to organize labor unions and a 30 hour work week at no loss of pay, with six weeks annual paid vacation, and one year parental leave for new parents at no loss of seniority.

the use of secondary boycotts, hot cargo agreements, and sympathy strikes to defend workers' rights worldwide.

We support the right of all workers to organize irrespective of job titles and responsibilities, citizenship status, method of payment, or sector of the economy where employed.

[Revolution Hero]

[quote]Quote: from TavareeshKamo on 2:32 am on June 22, 2002
wtf,
Trade Unions are the best thing, and you are a stupid **** for saying they are a capitalist organisation and are vermin for not knowing that most trade union chairmen are communists.



If one calls himself a communist, it doesn't mean that he is a real communist. And what a communist will collaborate with capitalists? The one who is trade union chairman. Others will not....

[Revolution Hero]

Quote: from TavareeshKamo on 6:01 am on June 22, 2002
but even here in the birth of capitalism in UK, people know unions are NOT capitalist and u have to as Red Celtic sed "get ur head checked", Unions have saved millions of jobs over the years, and have alwayts tried to make a comprise for the workers.

What do you expect? the unions to take over the factories and hold it at gunpoint?
Maybe in the future, but now..not possible.....not yet anyway



Kamo, have you ever read the book called " Scientific communism"? I don't think you have. The major theoretics see trade unions as the organizations which hold the workers away from the true political struggle. They do protect workers rights and so on, but they don't lead workers straight into actions, which would bring real good and significant results.
" Trade Unions have saved millions of jobs over the years"- that's all they have done.
How the working class should be organized then, if each worker will represent different trade union, which protect just the workers' interests in the capitalist state.
I am sure that socialisn is not the aim of the trade unions' leaders

[Revolution Hero]

Quote: from TavareeshKamo on 6:01 am on June 22, 2002
but even here in the birth of capitalism in UK, people know unions are NOT capitalist and u have to as Red Celtic sed "get ur head checked", Unions have saved millions of jobs over the years, and have alwayts tried to make a comprise for the workers.

What do you expect? the unions to take over the factories and hold it at gunpoint?
Maybe in the future, but now..not possible.....not yet anyway



Kamo, have you ever read the book called " Scientific communism"? I don't think you have. The major theoretics see trade unions as the organizations which hold the workers away from the true political struggle. They do protect workers rights and so on, but they don't lead workers straight into actions, which would bring real good and significant results.
" Trade Unions have saved millions of jobs over the years"- that's all they have done.
How the working class should be organized then, if each worker will represent different trade union, which protect just the workers' interests in the capitalist state.
I am sure that socialisn is not the aim of the trade unions' leaders

[Revolution Hero]

And here what Lenin have said about trade unions in the capitalist states.
Trade Unions shows us " a significant dissidence between pure proffessional and socialistic aspirations, the split between bourgeois working and socialist politics. As, in the capitalist society even the working class can implement capitalistic politic, if this class forgets about liberation aims, put up with mercenary slavery and come to nothing more than the care about the unions with one, or another bourgeois party for the imaginary "improvements" of it's slavery status."
That was the words of the great communist. The true is in their meaning.

[RedCeltic]

*** All rise for the reading of the gospel according to Lenin***

I'm sick of people wrapped up in the cult of personality. I do wonder how much labor you've actually done in your life. You come around my job with your anti union crap and you just may end up with your skull cracked open by a cast iron pipe. Scabs like you are worse than the bosses.

Why don't you learn more about the working class before you decide to turn the clock back 100 years and have us working 80 hour work weeks from cradle to grave!

[RedCeltic]

Here are some pro union quotes for all you scabs who are against the worker having a voice....

Ten thousand times has the labor movement stumbled and bruised itself. We have been enjoined by the courts, assaulted by thugs, charged by the militia, traduced by the press, frowned upon in public opinion, and deceived by politicians. 'But notwithstanding all this and all these, labor is today the most vital and potential power this planet has ever known, and its historic mission is as certain of ultimate realization as is the setting of the sun.
Eugene V. Debs (1894)


The labor movement is organized upon a principle that the strong shall help the weak. The strength of a strong man is a prideful thing, but the unfortunate thing in life is that strong men do not remain strong. And it is just as true of unions and labor organizations as is true of men and individuals. And whereas today the craft unions of this country may be able to stand upon their own feet and like mighty oaks stand before the gale, defy the lightning, yet the day may come when those organizations will not be able to withstand the lightning and the gale. Now, prepare yourselves by making a contribution to your less fortunate brethren, heed the cry from Macedonia that comes from the hearts of men. Organize the unorganized!
John L. Lewis

If I went to work in a factory, the first thing I'd do would be to join a union
Franklin D. Roosevelt

I consider it important, indeed urgently necessary, for intellectual workers to get together, both to protect their own economic status and, also generally speaking, to secure their influence in the political field.
Albert Einstein (commenting on why he joined the American Federation of Teachers, AFL-CIO)


I want you to pledge to yourselves in this convention to stand as one solid army against the foes of human labor. Think of the thousands who are killed every year and there is no redress for it. We will fight until the mines are made secure and human life valued more than props. Look things in the face. Don't' fear a governor; don't fear anybody. You pay the governor; he has the right to protect you. You are the biggest part of the population in the state. You create its wealth, so I say, "let the fight go on; if nobody else will keep on, I will."
Mother Jones, 1913
Speaking to the convention of District 15, UMWA, Trinidad Colorado

Come all of you good workers.
Good news to you I'll tell,
Of how the good old union has come in here to dwell.

Which side are you on? Which side are you on?
Which side are you on? Which side are you on?

My daddy was a miner
And I'm a miner's son,
And I'll stick with the union
Till ev'ry battle's won.

They say in Harlan County
There are no neutrals there.
You'll either be a union man
[alternate: "You're either with the union"]
Or a thug for J.H. Blaire

Oh, workers, can you stand it?
Oh, tell me how you can.
Will you be a lousy scab
Or will you be a man?
Don't scab for the bosses,
Don't listen to their lies.
Us poor folks haven't got a chance
Unless we organize
Which side are you on? Which side are you on?
Which side are you on? Which side are you on?
Florence Reece, 1932

[I Will Deny You]

[hr]Quote: from TavareeshKamo on 5:41 pm on June 21, 2002
*scratches head and wonders if Lindsay reckons im a 12 year old* fuck knows[hr]I thought you were 17 or something. But I'm bad with names and ages. My memory sucks. So for all I know you're 75.[hr]Quote: from Revolution Hero on 3:43 am on June 22, 2002
Kamo, have you ever read the book called " Scientific communism"? I don't think you have. The major theoretics see trade unions as the organizations which hold the workers away from the true political struggle. They do protect workers rights and so on, but they don't lead workers straight into actions, which would bring real good and significant results.
" Trade Unions have saved millions of jobs over the years"- that's all they have done.
How the working class should be organized then, if each worker will represent different trade union, which protect just the workers' interests in the capitalist state.
I am sure that socialisn is not the aim of the trade unions' leaders[hr]Oh no! Socialism isn't the aim of trade union leaders!? Look, union leaders are not economic theorists. And as far as "keeping workers away from the real struggle" (or whatever you said), the job of a union leader is not to lead anyone into a struggle. What fucking struggle are you talking about? If you're one of those kids who's never had a job in his/her life and wants the Teamsters and HERE to arm themselves and shoot the president, you need a reality check. A worker's job is not to spend his/her entire life preparing for a struggle that, quite frankly, would be impossible to win in the US. A worker's job is to--get this--WORK! And a union leader protects the worker as far as working is concerned. You know, health insurance, overtime, safe conditions, etc. I know that this is a board for Che admirers, but that doesn't mean we must demand that every single person involved with the proletariat must be exactly like Che.

Lindsay

[Nickademus]

As usual, I agree with RC. Trade unions are great, but far from perfect. there are porblems because of the laws they are subject to....that really were created to crush unions (trust me, i've studied them extensively).

and i can't remember who made the statement (and i'm too lazy to find it again to quote it) but someone said that the leaders often get mixed up with the bosses and 'prevent' or 'resist' strikes. perhaps the workers are often resisting strikes because while they are on strike they can't support their family. true there are numerous people who are really into the idea of striking but there are also always those you are sceptical as to the value of a strike (and in all cases, for a strike to really be effective, it has to be planned very strategically, considering where to strike, whom to strike, when to strike etc.).

Its not always the leaders because often the leaders are the union members themselves.

[El Che]

I think RC`s contributions on the subject are interesting and valuable as they bring us some insight into the situation of unions and labor legislation in the US. And from what I hear, there is alot to be done and there are several oppressive laws that need to be changed. One law that it is imperative to change is the one that makes it ilegal for communists to join unions, not only is this a grave violation of the democratic rights of the communist individual but it is also extremly important for reasons that I will explain below.

Unions are the instrument through which labor presents its self in a bargaining position before Capital. Capital does not need an artificial medium to represent its interests for Capital is already united under ownership and therefore it is the workers that need to unite and organise to achive a better power relationship in the labor/capital dictomy. The interests of one are opposed to the interests of the other, hence you have constant conflict with each side trying to get more out of the other. This is why it is essential that unions exist, only through unions can workers achive better condictions and rights, unions are the power it is possible to counter to the power of capital, within the confines of capitalist production relations.

Within the confines of capitalist production relations... We have a project dont we? At least most of us do. That project is Socialism, and Socialism is the political extension of the struggle of labor against capitalism, its awareness. Thats why its imperative that we have communists in unions, so that the struggle doesnt stop where the union stops. Because if that is so then workers will never really achive anything. Thats what the capitalists want, they want the struggle limited to unions, and I dont want anyone here to forget it. I would say that the major problem Marxists and Socialist face is creating worker political awareness, and from there political action. If you`ve worked before your certainly aware that most workers dont really care about politics, and thats something very difficult to change. Thats the heart of the problem, and unions can play a decisive role in creating an extended class consciousness with political aims, especificaly the political aim of striping Capital of its power. Destroying the social fiction that is Capital, through which some individuals gain power of others. Its important to make this union/socialism conection and its important instrumentalise unions with political aims in mind. And thats exaclty what they want to avoid, they want class consiouness and worker struggle to go only so far, and its your job, in case you care and are in a position to do something about it, to make sure they dont sucede. Its necessary to articulate parties and unions, to bring them together, and through them have a truly comprehensive and allsided labor struggle.

[peaccenicked]

Good post El Che. I cant see anything worth adding at the moment.

[Revolution Hero]

Quote: from I Will Deny You on 8:07 pm on June 22, 2002
[hr]If you're one of those kids who's never had a job in his/her life and wants the Teamsters and HERE to arm themselves and shoot the president, you need a reality check

Firstly, I am not a kid.
Secondly, did I say that I want to shoot the president?


Trade Unions are good only in protecting workers' economical rights. They prefer economical struggle to the political one. And this means that Trade Unions see their goal in the peaceful coexistence with the capitalism. Trade Unions make capitalists pay workers enough money and the workers are glad, otherwise they would be angry, wouldn't they? It is the well fixed mechanism , which allows workers to live good enough. And the workers become blind. They don't see the reason in striving for political goals. ( We have enough, what else do we need?). But these workers are the poorest men, comparing to the capitalist rich bosses. They are slaves , who work, as they think,for good money, thanks to the Trade Unions. So, why do you need socialism, if Trade Unions offer you " financial welfare"? It's all about the deal with the devil, whose name is capitalism.
Some of you are the members of the trade unions, and it is almost impossible to change your mind. But, you will never win a fight against capitalism, untill you are the members of the different trade unions. In order to win, you have to be all together, you have to unite into one big union of the workers, you have to understand your brotherhood and only then you will be able to reach your political aim ( of course, if you have one).
All of you protect Trade Unions, because these organizations make you live better. But don't you know that trade Unions make the capitalist dream come true? You work for your money , sitting on your places and everybody are happy. At the same time capitalist makes millions. And you don't mind. Well, seems that Trade Unions do really good job. Live in peace with capitalism , then.
And at the end I would like to ask you only one question:
Do your trade unions fight against capitalism, in order to change the system? I think they don't , correct me if I am wrong.

[RedCeltic]

I think what El Che said defines my position.

[El Che]

Your not wrong, but I dont see your point either. Trade unions aren`t parties, its not their "job" to act on a political level. If you have a political goal thats fine, but you leave unions out of it. Fight for the political on a political level, unions exist as a worker defense mecanism within Capitalism. And if you have Capitalism, and you can`t change that reality because noone will follow you, then be thankful for unions. Indeed you dont sound like a worker, because a worker feels on his very body, the difference between Capitalism with unions and Capitalism without unions. By assuming your current position you`re infact shooting your self in the foot.

(Edited by El Che at 3:06 pm on June 25, 2002)

[RGacky3]

trade unions started out as great socialistic, workers weapons, and some still are, yet many have become corrupt.

[Maaja]

I like only one tradu union but it doesn't exist anymore for some centuries so it can't be at all dangerous;) It's the Hansaetic League which was one of the biggest trade union in the world in the medieaval age.

[Revolution Hero]

El Che , I understand the difference between capitalism with the unions and the capitalism without them.
But my point is that trade unions have also to educate workers politically, so they would be aware of the situation in the capitalist society, in which they work.
Right now, it looks like trade unions always try to sign the peace treaty with capitalism. Trade Unions always look for compromise , which solves antagonistic problems of the capitalist society.
Trade Unions aren't parties, but it doesn't mean that they shouldn't strive for political aims.Because only if the working class is organized and understand it's political role it will be able to change the capitalist system into socialist one.
Trade Unions will slow the process of change, until the workers will not try to reach the politicial goals.

[maoist3]

Third World trade unions should be defended
and where labor bureaucrats representing labor
aristocrats have taken over, the Third World
activist should fight to retake control.

In the imperialist countries it's a different story,
except for unions composed of immigrants/undocumented workers.

The Amerikkkan trade union is the scab of the world.
Check out the history of the AFL-CIA supporting
and fronting for assassination of trade union leaders
around the world.

The Amerikkkan trade union is not proletarian,
because its rank-and-file is composed of petty-bourgeoisie allied with the imperialists.

[maoist3]

The current "War on Terror" which is really
just an extension of the rulers' favorite wars
already going on reveals that trade unions
side with the imperialists, yet again. These trade
unions are not worth your time. We have to prioritize
our energies. Let these trade unions show some
international solidarity first before we show them
any love. Don't let them tell you it's just the leaders.
Wait till the rank-and-file replace their leaders or
hold the rank-and-file responsible in Amerikkka.

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[BRNGflag]

What the fuck are you talking about? The rank and file of AFL-CIO unions are just that, rank and file workers. There's absolutely no question that there are major corruption issues in trade unions, but to say that they're made up of the petty bourgeoise is a joke. My dad served as a Union official for a long ass time and he's been swinging a hammer since he was fifteen. Just because Unions aren't socialist enough for your taste doesn't mean a damn thing. Unless you've been a member of a striking trade, you can't say shit.

[maoist3]

I can't say the Amerikkkan trade union rank-and-file
is not petty-bourgeoisie? The average wage in the
Third World is 48 cents an hour.

http://www.etext.org/Politics/MIM/faq/twprole.html

Let me suggest that when someone can hire two
workers for less than 10% of their own wages, that
someone is petty-bourgeois at the very least.

More importantly, it is fact that the Amerikkkan trade unions participate in the assassination of Third World
trade union officials and worker-activists. For every
Longshoreman, United Farmworkers or old Polaroid union from the 1960s, there are 100 Amerikkkan unions that are perfect international scabs. And it does
not matter what your background is, what my background is or whether or not your father swings
a hammer. It's not going to bring back any dead
trade unionists killed with U.$. trade union activity
or assistance.

[new democracy]

in my country(isral) the leaders of the trade unions realy corrupted.

[antieverything]

The thing that you guys need to realize is that the unions are fighting for a fair wage for a fair day's work...they don't even have that yet, how can you expect them to fight for complete and immediate elimination of the capitalist system? Either they fight the class war one battle at a time in the political and economic arenas or they try an armed revolution (and trust me, if you guys want to try that you will find yourselves very alone and very dead very soon) and remember what happened when the unionists in spain tried that? They supply lines were cut off...what else should they have expected? Revolution would require a concurrent uprising in every country...sorry, but you can't do it until you get rid of the reserve workers (those starving in the third world).

Oh, btw, while these unions are risking everything in order to get what is fair, what are you doing? Sitting at home, typing on your computer, *****ing about how the trade unions aren't doing enough? Fuck yourself and get a job or something.

[NationalBolshevik]

Quote: from new democracy on 6:23 pm on Aug. 5, 2002
in my country(isral) the leaders of the trade unions realy corrupted.


Because of the Fucking Kikes.

[new democracy]

FUCK YOU!!!! MALTE NATIONALBOLSHVIC IS ANTI-SEMITE!!! BAN HIM!!!!

[suffianr]

Believe it or not, but trade unions are often indirectly associated with socialism in my country, Malaysia.

You know, my country's government periodically reminds the people, courtesy of idiotic propaganda, of how dangerous it to trust workers to look after their own people. In every field of expertise, from steel works to education, trade unions are founded and mysteriously shutdown on a rather frequent basis. This, imho, is because communism took root in our nation's politics by way of trade unions and worker's welfare organisations in the early part of the previous century.

Communism was disseminated by communist Chinese workers in the early 1920's and 1930's, brought through the Kuomintang from mainland China. And the Malaysian Communist Party, a violent and short-lived endeavour, even collaborated with British Imperialists during WWII against the Japenese Imperialists, and helped to bring law and order to my country, for a time, in the aftermath of the war. There were positive and meaningful contributions, most of which was later drowned in a bloody civil war that lasted many decades.

So, they shutdown the unions as a stop-gap measure to block the influence and political power of trade unions, and communists. But since the Seventies, things have loosened up somewhat, although unions are now generally understood to be merely gestures of democratic practices. Go on, check out my country's human rights acheivements, and you'll see what I mean... :(

[new democracy]

are you from malesya? i heard that your prime minister is fascist almost like the prime minister in my country!!

[Xvall]

Quote: from NationalBolshevik on 7:51 am on Aug. 6, 2002

Quote: from new democracy on 6:23 pm on Aug. 5, 2002
in my country(isral) the leaders of the trade unions realy corrupted.


Damnit! I THOUGHT that you weren't going to say something to get you banned!
Because of the Fucking Kikes.

[I Will Deny You]

Quote: from NationalBolshevik on 2:51 am on Aug. 6, 2002

Quote: from new democracy on 6:23 pm on Aug. 5, 2002
in my country(isral) the leaders of the trade unions realy corrupted.


Because of the Fucking Kikes.
Give me a break.

Lindsay

[vox]

At one point, there was a problem with anti-Semitism here. I certainly hope that this will not happen again.

vox

[suffianr]

My country's prime minister is a senile asshole. What are Kikes? (Pls forgive my ignorance and naive, innocent disposition)

Uh, ND, you're not from Singapore, are you? :)

[I Will Deny You]

Kike is a derogatory word for Jew.

Lindsay

[new democracy]

i am from israel not singapore.

[new democracy]

well i heard that new democracy made solidarity committees. it suppose to be, from what i understand, committees that will bring solidarity beetwin workers and an alternative to capitalist trade unions. here is an article about them:

SOLIDARITY COMMITTEE CHANGES WORLD!

By Tom Laney


Tom Laney is a committeeman and 28-year member of UAW Local 879, Ford Twin Cities. This report is from a listserv for auto workers.

Two directions are pretty easy to see at our plant since the Ford life-wrecking announcements of plant closures. One is that the chairman and president of the Local and their appointed cronies have stepped up their work at promoting dog eat dog competition between locals. The other is that members of our Solidarity Committee have increased their own activity towards constructing a solidarity movement that will eventually change the world. What they are doing has already changed the work corners of our little world within our plant.

Quite a difference in these two efforts. One is confining, restrictive, exclusive and dismally mean-ass, destructive to solidarity and dead-ended, as anyone at Edison [a NJ Ford plant which just experienced major layoffs] should be able to explain. The other is warm and friendly, open and expansive, courageous and imaginative, and based in the ways that most people live their lives. That is, the solidarity committee expresses and reflects the way most of us treat each other on our jobs and in our families and neighborhoods—values like mutual support, equal treatment like no rank, democratic opportunity like free speech, the belief in a free and independent Unionism, the friendly obligation to be on all workers' side. These are the principles that make this committee work so well.

It is really amazing what this committee has already done:

1. It has survived the worst attacks of the local UAW misleaders and become stronger because of these attacks.

2. Solidarity members are friends! These friends have organized support for the best union members in our plant and outside our plant.

3. These folks have listened to each other and work together with the greatest respect. The committee meetings run themselves by mutual respect.

4. They write, talk, go on the road (four out-of-town trips so far just to meet and talk with other workers) and do all this on their own time and money.

5. They have turned all the lies about Local 2036 [Accuride workers locked out for four years and abandoned by the International UAW] into the truth and matched up against the FPS/UAW [Ford Production System, the "lean production" system at Ford] lie machine to spread the truth about the classification fight.

6. They have promoted email communication between us all and they build support and respect for what another generation of Unionists did for us all and fight to retain it all.

7. This committee makes the impossible seem possible. It is inspiring and invigorating.

The beginnings of the Civil Rights Movement included kids sitting in at five and dime lunch counters and getting the shit beat out of them. Repeatedly. They were awfully small in numbers. Their courage came from each other. There was no one else to appeal to for help in the beginning other than themselves. They were treated in shameful ways. They survived by depending on each other. I think solidarity committee members are a lot like these kids though some of us are quite a bit older.

There is but one way out of all the problems we face. Either we get ourselves together or we are going to lose everything our union has ever won. We are not going to be saved by the UAW porkchoppers [union hacks], because they are on the other side. They have been proving this every day for the past 20 years or so. They are on the other side. To pretend otherwise is to waste a lot of time. Anyone who thinks the great Ford Motor Company cares about us is about to get a rude wake up. The Ford "Revitalization Plan" which promises to destruct 35,000 jobs up front is only the beginning. Ford/UAW will come into our locals with a meat ax and go after every victory of past generations. Get ready.

We are the answer. We are also our worst enemies when we think we can't do anything. That is why the solidarity committee is so restoring—they think we can do everything!

I ran into a friend yesterday I had not seen for about six months. This guy loves the union in the solidarity sense. The last time we had talked I thought he was too focused on all the kiss-ups in the plant and the kiss-up leadership we have. Yesterday he was down because of personal things that weren't going well. As we talked we *****ed about the sellout president who came by, the sellout appointee who runs the FPS BS and the sellout attitude that runs thru most of the local leaders. Then we started looking for the great union people around us. I could see Rob Ayotte over on Trim #1, John Bosneag on the IP hoist, the great Joel Gobats came by and talked a few minutes, John Boy the dinger drove by a couple of times yelling obscenities about the Packers, Kari Altima stopped for a second, we could see Vern Gagner and Eddie Deane on the chassis repair hoist.....We could see all around us great union people who believe in solidarity, people who are not afraid of the company or the UAW, people who have never failed to stick by their friends on the jobs.

We had a right to ***** about the hacks, but we had a responsibility too—to recognize that most folks we work with are pretty damn good. The reports from Janesville and Louisville proved this out too. Mike Melville, Jim Blackbird and Joel really liked the Local 2036 strikers they met down there.

We have to be careful to not get too wrapped up in the McKenzies/Franchinos [local UAW officials] and all their company friends. When they are gone they will be replaced with other sellouts. The sellouts and kiss-ups have always been a problem. They should never be the focus.

I have felt like my friend many, many times. I gave up on the UAW a long time ago. I believe it is worse than the corporations when you compare their duties and what should be the difference in their principles. One has always been a bloodsucker and the other has become a rattlesnake. I try to let that lie. I have always enjoyed most of the guys I work with and I have seen the line change from when it was pretty much controlled by line workers to where it is now controlled by Ford/UAW people who think we can always do more work. This shift in control has been and is managed by favoritism. It is all orchestrated by Ford with the UAW's blessing and it is all designed to make solidarity a very difficult thing to extend beyond our own jobs.

The change has all been done by design. The company knew exactly how tough solidarity can make speedup and plant closures so they set out to take it apart. It is all part of their plan to have absolute control of the shop floor and all the jobs and destroy the union.

Inside of that big cultural shift, we still have a lot of people who will always support each other because that is just the way most of us are. If we go out and look for these people we can find them everywhere and this is the first step towards getting ourselves together. WE just found them all over Janesville and Louisville too. Maybe Louisville was a little bit like a Greensboro lunch counter a lot of years ago, letting us see easily what is right and what is wrong.

Fact is, there are a lot more people out there who believe in solidarity than those misled leaders in local 862. Good real UAW people help each other out every shift all across the country in all sorts of little ways. There is, thanks to the work of the Solidarity Committee in our plant, a whole lot of linking up going on that is unlimited. All proof that we can build a movement that will be so democratic and become so powerful nothing and no one will be able to stop it if we just keep believing in the best values of workers everywhere.

In its brief lively life, members of our Solidarity Committee have proven this over and over by simply being themselves.

I should add that people can participate in the solidarity movement without having to travel, go to meetings or write anything on email. We are putting together a movement that will make people feel good and do good but we know that participation will differ because of priorities and family etc.

People don't have to use their time to be a part of this. They just need to trust their experience and common sense, to take sides, to be on the side of friendship and mutual support even if they can't mutually support someone or local 2036 or anyone else in person.

They just have to believe in solidarity and to think that people who are promoting solidarity are right. They only have to defend solidarity in their conversations and everything will change. Everyone will see that the best things they believe in and try to practice in every way they treat others in their families, neighborhoods and workplaces are the values that should be running the show. Why would anyone settle for less?

My favorite book is We CAN Change the World! by my friend Dave Stratman. The book picked me up when it was settling in on me what a crock of corporate crap the UAW had become and I thought union life was over as I had wanted it to be. It is a book about the confidence and trust we should have in each other and the possibilities for changing everything if we can just get ourselves together around democracy and equality. It's a book about all the things we thought about but probably thought no one else was thinking about and we were, thus, wacko. Very encouraging, practical book.

I don't think anyone on our Solidarity Committee has read this book. But I can see that Dave's belief in the goodness of ordinary people—I should say the extraordinary people on the solidarity committee—and their values, is completely verified and supported by the stuff this band of brothers and sisters talks about and is doing.

Happy King Day!
Tom


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From New Democracy Newsletter, November 2001 - February 2002.

[new democracy]

well in my country the trade unions are the worse there is one big trade union called " hahistadroot". the hahistadroot was formed before the creation of the state of israel and it was only for jews(only from 1,960 it gave service to arab citisiens :angry: ) today the israely religious fundemental oarty shas has allot of control in the histadroot. and orthodox jews(jewish hard core believers) which shas represent dont work and the state fund them(note: not all religious jewish dont work and the state fund only orthodox)!!! what does a party of people that dont work and fund by the state has to do with working people!? the ruling coalition in the histadroot called aam. it is made by the labor party, shas and the licud. licud is the most strongest right wing party in israel and it advocate capitalism!!! what does that have to do with working people!? and what with the labor party which controled by a small elite of jewish people that came from europe(european jews controll israel political power) has to do with workers!? well that's show you the true face of trade unions.

[new democracy]

also do you know who else is a member in aam(the ruling coalition inside the histadroot)? the democratic front for peace and equality(a coalition of leftist parties controlled by the israely communist party)!!!!!!

[new democracy]

i forgot to say another thing about the solidarity committees. unlike capitalist trade unions the solidarity committees suppose to be an international movment that will bring solidarity beetwin workers asll over the world. it sounds to me like the solidarity committees have allot of potentional.

[Nickademus]

unions are often political. i haven't been to a protest where a union of some sort hasn't been present (with perhaps the exception of the recent g8 protests).

unions take political stances all the time. there are legal cases about whether a union member should have to pay union dues to a union that supports a politic that the union member doesn't support. perhaps its your countries, but here in Canada, unions are very political and do fight for the rights of the worker and human rights in general all the time.

[Conghaileach]

What is everyone's opinion here of Jimmy Hoffa, the Truckers Union president who got tangled up with the mob?

[antieverything]

Whenever a power structure becomes unaccountable it becomes corrupt. Hoffa didn't have to answer to anyone most of the time.

[hekmatista]

Reformist unions are not revolutionary instruments and were never intended as such. Their leadership is in it for the money and privilege that the rank and file's dues provide; they are a bought off labor aristocracy, the labor lieutenants of capital. That being said, in the absence of other forms of organization with a real mass base, revolutionaries who do not engage the workers concentrated within the unions are just masterbating. Unions are not a sword for our class, but they provide a pretty good shield sometimes.

[rouchambeau]

OP:
Trade Unions are the capitalist organizations. I see the danger in their existance, as they split the working class movement into many separate parts. And this makes proletariat weaker. Workers don't realize their unity, they see themselves as the members of different trade unions , with the different interests.If this is your objection to trade unions, then there is no reason why you wouldn't like the IWW.

However, trade unions, in my opinion, are not helping workers out so much as they are mediating and resolving the concrete conflict between the workers and owners. There was a time when businesses fought to keep unions from forming; now unions are essential to the bourgeoisie to stay in power.

I should say that I don't mean we would be better off by simply undoing the unions. There needs to be better associations of workers for the purpose of actually elevating their position in society, rather than make collaboration with the powers that be easier.