Northern Ireland?

[New.Art.Riot]

What do you think will happen?

[Conghaileach]

This topic was posted on the board a few days ago: The Fleece Process (http://www.che-lives.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=31164)

I don't necessarily agree with everything in the article, originally from The Blanket (http://lark.phoblacht.net/), but I think the general gist of the situation is that this little dance will go on until the IRA is gone (at which point the unionists will probably throw up more demands) or Paisley finally dies (at which point the DUP will likely implode because of an inevitable power struggle between the Christian fundamentalists and the middle-class unionists).

Obviously the only answer is proletarian unity. That might take some time though.

[Funky Monk]

As a sub question of this: Do you think that Paisley's demand for a photograph is a genuine desire for proof or an attempt to humiliate the IRA.


I think the best quotes have come from the majority people in the middle who dont give a damn what happens so long as their children can grow up in a safe environment.

[YKTMX]

Paisley has publicly admitted that wants to see the IRA humiliated. He would have no qualms at all about that.

To be honest, however, I don't think photograps are too outrageous a proposal. It's fair enough that Unionists would want such a thing documented. The IRA has already capitulated and admitted that armed republicanism is a dead end, so why they would be so "emberassed" by giving up their guns only they know.

I hate to agree with Paisley but he's fucking detestable but certainly, if it's what the Northern Irish people want, then this move is what is needed for "peace".

[PRC-UTE]

I also don't agree with the 'Fleece Process' piece, but I hoped it would help along discussion about the sit in the north.


As a sub question of this: Do you think that Paisley's demand for a photograph is a genuine desire for proof or an attempt to humiliate the IRA.



Humiliation.

It's also useful to stall for both sides. It's a well-rehersed dance that SF and the DUP do together. Both sides grass roots hate the other side and don't want compromise. Yet both sets of leaders need compromise to succeed . . . Gerry has essentially sold the Brits his movement, but he has to do it in pieces or risk a backlash. Same for the fascist Paisley.


I think the best quotes have come from the majority people in the middle who dont give a damn what happens so long as their children can grow up in a safe environment.

Sadly the peace process won't end violence, anymore than it has ended sectarianism.

[New.Art.Riot]

Do you thing there is a chance for lasting peace?

[trotsky_lives]

There is no solution to the conflict in the North on the basis of capitalism.Trotsky's theory of permanant revolution holds a particular relevance to the question of the north. The classical Bourgeois revolutions (France, US, England and later Italy, Germany) carried through the transition from fuedalism to capitalism, united the peoples of common language, culture etc, into a united Nation State. i.e. the 100 or so German fiefdoms were consolidated into one German fatherland. They removed the monarchy and established the free market. When their markets came to their limit within their own border, they looked at the neighbouring countries and decided to use/create/take over their markets - thereby stunting the "Bourgeois Revolution" in those countries.

Therefore, as Trotsky, Lenin and indeed Connolly recognised, the bourgeois revolution could not be completed in countries that were ruled/dominated by imperialist powers - the native bourgeois were too weak to do this and in order to achieve this they would have to mobilise the whole population especially the working class - who have distinctly different class interests, and this was too risky so instead they slavishly submitted to the domination of foreign imperialism.

Therefore the task of completing the bourgeious revolution fell to the working class as the only class capable of uniting the masses behind a struggle to remove the foreign imperialists. However, the working class could not, after evicting the foreign landlord and capitalist, simply stop and hand power back to the native capitalist class and go back to their previous position in society as slave to profit. They would naturally continue on the path they had taken and remove the previous restrictions imposed on them, remove the profit system and begin the building of socialism.

This applies to the situation in the north. At each juncture, when the media and the politicians are proclaiming victory and peace, they then find that the "deal" falls apart and unravells - precisely because THERE CAN BE NO SOLUTION TO THE NATIONAL QUESTION IN IRELAND ON THE BASIS OF CAPITALISM. This impasse in history, this inability of the Bourgeois in Ireland, Britain and internationally has created an abnormal situation in Ireland.

But the situation also contains many things which are familar to the international situation - in this instance the domination of political life by what are essentially capitalist or pro-capitalist parties. To this is added a lethal dose of sectarianism cooked up by the ruling class, north and south, and the political parties from both sides of the divide. These parties exist to perpetuate the status quo. Theyuse sectarianism to survive. Indeed the more farsighted among them have given up the original demands of both camps. In the nationalist camp - the demand for a united republic, in the unionist camp the maintainance of a protestant state for a protestant people. These people have come to the correct conclussion that to have these as your aims is, at best impossible, and at worst would lead to civil war and Balkan type nightmare.

Therefore there can never be a solution on the present basis. The Socialist Party in Ireland has always maintained and defended this basic premise of Marxism. If the fundamental element to the situation in the north is division - and most importantly the division of the working class, then the present situation will continue. As I said at the beginning, if it is only the working class who can complete the remaining tasks to the bourgeios revolution, then it is only a united working class who can drag the north out of a nightmare of poverty, sectarianism and exploitation. The working class needs to build its own party that is neither green nor orange but red.

[PRC-UTE]

Therefore there can never be a solution on the present basis. The Socialist Party in Ireland has always maintained and defended this basic premise of Marxism. If the fundamental element to the situation in the north is division - and most importantly the division of the working class, then the present situation will continue. As I said at the beginning, if it is only the working class who can complete the remaining tasks to the bourgeios revolution, then it is only a united working class who can drag the north out of a nightmare of poverty, sectarianism and exploitation.

I agree with much of what Trotsky_Lives has said here.

However the problem you'll come up against is that as soon as you attempt to unite and organise the proletariat in the six counties of the north of Ireland, the Union Jack flag comes out, the clerics start screaming and soon there's the pogroms again, backed up by the British Army.

The role of British imperialism can't be ignored. The GFA is an attempt to do that, but it will not work.

The issue here is the partition of Ireland that has unleashed the 'carnival of reaction' -- the English division of Ireland created a Protestant clerical state in the north and a Catholic clerical state in the south. Both have to be swept aside to make way for the Irish Workers Republic, and both require a different approach.

Armed struggle alone will not defeat the occupation -- a revolutionary socialist platform is needed, but not one that whitewashes, excuses or ignores British attrocities in Ireland, crimes that are ongoing. James Connolly's approach of revolutionary socialism and national liberation led by the working class is the best, and the one advocated by Marx himself.

The best thing that British / Australian / American / Irish and all international Lefties can do for Ireland is to campaign for the soliders to go on home and support the efforts of Irish Republican Socialists, including the IRSP.

[bolshevik butcher]

Paisley is certainley a hinderance, I can't see the situation being resolved until he dies.

[DaCuBaN]

The issue here is the partition of Ireland that has unleashed the 'carnival of reaction' -- the English division of Ireland created a Protestant clerical state in the north and a Catholic clerical state in the south. Both have to be swept aside to make way for the Irish Workers Republic, and both require a different approach.

I couldn't agree more. To look objectively at the geographical situation, Ireland is an ideal size to be one "nation", combined with the fact that it's an island. Of course, what else but socialism could be instituted :D


Armed struggle alone will not defeat the occupation -- a revolutionary socialist platform is needed, but not one that whitewashes, excuses or ignores British attrocities in Ireland, crimes that are ongoing. James Connolly's approach of revolutionary socialism and national liberation led by the working class is the best, and the one advocated by Marx himself.

The big problem of course, is the seeking of a skapegoat. Only the most die-hard British nationalists would dare defend the actions taken by the British army in Ireland, yet arguably it's the rest of us who'd take any brunt.

It's a catch-22, alas I feel this must be remembered or the results could turn "nasty".


The best thing that British / Australian / American / Irish and all international Lefties can do for Ireland is to campaign for the soliders to go on home and support the efforts of Irish Republican Socialists, including the IRSP

Without question, it is British imperialism and should be stopped.