The Israeli & Palestinian condition

[Erazer]

The tention and war between these people are big.
I think there are some solutions and i'm sure you will not like some.

First solution: coming into a considiration of a well recognized palestinian country lead by chairman Arafat or someone better.

Second solution: I believe in good education, so my solution is to educate the palestinian kids for ways of peace and socailism, basicly the kids are being washed out by fanatic religieon which will eventually kill them.

Third solution: Israel drops out to 67 borders, but the question is if the palestinain will still want more land.

what are your opinions about these solutions?

[Blasphemy]

these are not 3 seperate solutions, erazer. the terrible incitement in palestinian schools must cease along with the suicide bombing, israel must end the occupation by withdrawing to the 4 of june, 1967 borders and evacuate the settlements, and the palestinian chairman must declare independance.
but none of this is going to happen with sharon and arafat.

[Xvall]

I'm sorry, but I hate both Sharon and Arafat. I just do. The Israelis and Palestineans can do without these two individuals who want nothing but power.

[Vide]

Neither side is right, for obvious reasons. I have a solution to the conflict, but I doubt many of the bloodthirsty Marxists on here are interested in hearing it.

[Reuben]

I side with the palestinian people. When israsael was created in 1948, 700,000 palestinians had already beenb forced to leave. Today many of these refugees, still live in refugee camps, including many who own the keys to the huses from which they were expelled puurely because of their ethnic background.

I will not chronicle the full history of Palestine. However, what seemed to be a major breakthrough occurred in Oslo, when a peace plan seemed to be initiated. However, it must be understood that this peace process could only have been initiated because of the huge compromise that Arafat made, which was to his own great political danger within the Palestinian community.

He agreed, to the criticism of many to recognize Israel in 78 PER CENT of historic palestine asking for a state in the remaining 22 per cent which was occuppied in 67/73.

However progress after that was slow not least for the Palestinians Who since 1967 had already been living under particularly repressive conditions of occupation and after oslo were simply forced to endure more years of oppression.

The provocative visit by Sharon to the temple mount was simply a spark which lit the fuel which was the humiliating conditions of occupation the palestiians were continuing to suffer such as house demolitions and and check points. iIt should also be noted that prior to Sharons visit, Arafat had pleaded with Barak not to allow Sharon to travel to the temple mount. Barak replied by giving Sharon a military escort.

I will not go into detail about the last year, mnianly because I need toget to bed. All I will say is thatthe palestinians have been collectively punished for excersizing what is unquestionably their right to resist occupation, aextrajudicial killiing s and state terrorism (I am not saying suicide bombs are legitimate).

The solution as I see it is, at the very least, for Sharon to take up Arafats extremely generous offer which would allow the Palestinians just 22 per cent of historic palestine and the RIGHT TO RETURN for Palestinian refugees.

I as a jew could live as a citizen in Israel whenever I want ed but I would much rather that my place went to one of the young palestinians, who simply for being a palestinian in poccuppied palestine , has been forced to gropw up like their parents and grandparents in a refugee camp.

[Conghaileach]

The only leftist party I'm aware of there is the PFLP (Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine). Most Palestinians desire a two-state solution (with Israel withdrawing to the 1967 borders) so I think this is the position that the PFLP has taken.

A problem is that even many "liberal" Israelis want the Palestinians to be transferred into Jordan. A transfer such as this is a form of ethnic cleansing, though I'm sure they don't care about that.

Israel is a expansionist, Zionist state. Ironically, it shares many similarities with Nazi Germany. One is the idea of "liebensraum", creating more space for Israelis by moving further and further into Palestinian areas and removing the inhabitants. A second is that many Israeli ministers have publicly referred to Palestinians as worms, less than human and as such ("undermenshcen" was what the Nazi term). A third is that in many refugee camps IDF soldiers have begun barcoding and numbering Palestinians, as the Nazis did with Jews in the concentration camps.


(p.s. I'm sure the "German" I've used is spelled very incorrectly.)

[Rob]

actually, there is another leftist Palestinian party, the Palestinian People's Party. other than that, Reuben has said all that is necessary.

[Lefty]

its all moot. the cycle of violence will continue unless someone smart steps in or one of the two big ones (Sharon or Arafat) dies.

[Xvall]

Vide. Why assume that all the marxists on this board are bloodthirsty? Many people would consider me a Marxist, and yet I have no desire to go around killing people. Notice, that no one has yet to propose the palestineans to go and 'kill' off the Israelis, have they?

[deimos]

i tottally agree with reuben.I think the only solution is to evacuate the settlements and agree with the pre-67 borders.

[Reuben]

thanks deimosand rob.

It is also important to remember the right of return, something which the israeli 'peacenicks' namely Barak have a tendency to skip over.


I really do not see why Arafat has been compared to and even equated to Sharon, the butcher of Sabra and Shatila. He has mad huge compromises for the sake of peace. If he was simply concerned with perpetuating his own power he would have taken a very simplistic ultranationalist stance. THis would have been incredibly easy given the condition of the Palestinian people.

Sharon has done exactly this. He knows that given his fascistic agenda, he can only perpetuate his own power through a situation of extreme conflict.

[Blasphemy]

Reuben, you can't throw all the blame on Israel and say that arafat is such a great man of peace. that is unfair.

in Oslo, Yitzhak Rabin was also willing to make huge compromises, that no other PM would have ever agreed to. israel gave a lot of money and weapons to the palestininas, while granting a number of palestinians the right of return.

you can't only blame israel for the refugee camps. the arab leaders did not want to solve the refugees problem, so they could use them as political pawns in their struggle against israel.
israel can never accept the right of return. even the most extreme leftists in israel oppose it. it will destroy israel's jewish nature, and then, the state of israel will have no point, because it will not be the home of the jewish people.
as i see it, a fair solution to the refugee problem is to settle them in the territories with israeli financial support.

in this past year, i believe that arafat has lost his sane mind. he is not someone to negotiate with. he is a terrorist and a murderer. every terroist that enters israel and kills innocent people, does what it does with arafat's consent. he funds from his own pocket the terrorist organizations.

You are looking at things from a very simplistic right and wrong point of view. you treat arafat as some just leader, which is obvioulsy wrong.

the intifada is not good for the palestinians. you say "victory to the intifada", and i don't understand what stands behind that empty slogan. hundreds of innocent people have died in the name of the intifada. israel is once again reoccupaying parts of the A territories. what has this intifada achieved? blood washes the streets of Jenin and Jerusalem. what kind of a victory is it? if you expect israel to withdraw because of terrorist attacks then you can keep dreaming.
the palestinians will not achieve liberty through the barrel of a gun, but through pens and handshakes.

i say failure to the intifada. the cursed intifada which killed hundreds of israelis and palestinians.

[Conghaileach]

from Blasphemy
in this past year, i believe that arafat has lost his sane mind. he is not someone to negotiate with. he is a terrorist and a murderer. every terroist that enters israel and kills innocent people, does what it does with arafat's consent. he funds from his own pocket the terrorist organizations.What a load of crap. I don't like Arafat. His main concern is maintaining power, even going so far as to get rid of any political opponents within the PLO. He even had the PFLP's leader arrested, which caused them to withdraw their officials and support from the PLO. He has his police lock up innocent Palestinians on the orders of Bush and Sharon.



the cursed intifada which killed hundreds of israelis and palestinians. Thousands of Palestinians, to be accurate. And they would have been killed, no matter whether or not the Intifada was on.

[Blasphemy]

innocent palestinians? israel does just open the palestininas phonebook, randomly pick names, and then calls them terrorist. if israel demands that a certain person will be arrested, there is a good reason for that. if you refer to Sadaat as innocent, then you are really twisted, for he is solely responsible for the death of dozens of israelis.

what do you mean by saying that "they would have been killed, no matter whether or not the intifada was on"? before the intifada, israel didn't invade palestinians cities. israeli soldiers don't shoot at palestinians for the heck of it. tanks don't roll into Ramallah because it's loads of fun. if terrorists attacks didn't kill innocent israelis, then israel wouldn't invade the cities and kill innocent palestininas. and if that wouldn't happen, then palestinians terrorist attacks won't take place. it's a circle, and anyone who supports terrorist actions, supports the continuing bloodshed on both sides.

do you truly believe that by blowing people up, the palestinians will get a state?

[deimos]

israel can never accept the right of return. even the most extreme leftists in israel oppose it. it will destroy israel's jewish nature, and then, the state of israel will have no point, because it will not be the home of the jewish people.

one thing i don't understand: y do the israelis think that palestine is theirs?How can they justify it?By 2000 years of absentity?

[Blasphemy]

the jewish people have a right, just like any other people, for self determination. they have the right for a sovereign state in which they can govern themselves. until israel was founded, the jewish people always lived as a minority among other people. this made them an easy target for persecution and racism.
the holocaust proves more than anything else that the jewish people deserve a state. while millions were slaughtered by the nazis, the free world stood aside and did nothing, despite the fact that they knew about the atrocities carried out by the reich. 6 millions were slaughtered, while the U$ and imperialist england stood aside and watched.
the existance of a jewish state protects the jewish community world wide. all the anti-zionist jews can talk about how zionism is fascism, but it really isn't. it is a movement of awakening, a movement that will be the only thing to assure the existance of the jewish people.
the world did not prevent once holocaust from happening. can we trust it to prevent the next?

and now, after establishing that the jewish people have a moral right for self determination, lets talk about the location - israel.
as i mentioned before, the jewish people never had a home. they always resided in the homes of strangers, where they were persecuted.
the land of israel is the only place in the world where the jews have an historic right to live in. the land of israel is where the jewish religion was formed. this is where the first and second temple were. this is the only piece of land in the world were the jews have a right to be in.

israel's jewish nature must always be preserved for the reasons i have mentioned above. this is why it cannot accept the right of return despite the fact that it is the most fair and just solution to the refugee problem. you have to be just, but you also have to be pragmatic.

[Conghaileach]

I like to think of Israelis as a person who leaves his home, and returns twenty years later to find that someone else has moved in, and has the new occupier forced out.

[Blasphemy]

Quote: from CiaranB on 5:05 am on June 21, 2002
The only leftist party I'm aware of there is the PFLP (Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine). Most Palestinians desire a two-state solution (with Israel withdrawing to the 1967 borders) so I think this is the position that the PFLP has taken.

A problem is that even many "liberal" Israelis want the Palestinians to be transferred into Jordan. A transfer such as this is a form of ethnic cleansing, though I'm sure they don't care about that.

Israel is a expansionist, Zionist state. Ironically, it shares many similarities with Nazi Germany. One is the idea of "liebensraum", creating more space for Israelis by moving further and further into Palestinian areas and removing the inhabitants. A second is that many Israeli ministers have publicly referred to Palestinians as worms, less than human and as such ("undermenshcen" was what the Nazi term). A third is that in many refugee camps IDF soldiers have begun barcoding and numbering Palestinians, as the Nazis did with Jews in the concentration camps.


(p.s. I'm sure the "German" I've used is spelled very incorrectly.)


not a single word of what you wrote is true.

all the comparisons to nazi germany are stupid and absurd. do you really think that the territories were occupied because it is to crowded in israel? "hmm, we dpn't have enough room here...what shall we do? maybe we can declare war on 5 armies which are much stronger than us, better organized with better weapons, so we can occupy some impoverished pieces of land with millions of refugees." does that sound reasonable?

about the ministers calling the palestininas worms: what the fuck are you talking about? can you give me names and exact quotes, because as someone who lives in israel and reads the paper every single day, i have never heard of such thing.

about the Transfer. what liberal supports such a racist idea? you what to know who supports it? a small group of fanatics who have no hold whatsoever in reality. liberals who support the transfer...what nonesense...


I like to think of Israelis as a person who leaves his home, and returns twenty years later to find that someone else has moved in, and has the new occupier forced out.

come back to me on that one after your entire family was murdered by the nazis and you have no home, money, or a bit of humanity left in you.

[Reuben]

Regarding the discussion , I consider myself significantly pro-palesitnian. However,I do feel that the jews, (without reference to Israel), have as much right to a state as any other stateless ethnic monority.

This is not a pro-isreal comment. I am just talking generally in saying that jews have no less right to a astate than other ethnic groups such as the amrenians or bangladeshis.

That is not to say I would promote statehood as the solution to any ehtnic minoritis, hoping instead for socialism, however one sometimes has to take account of history and be pragmatic..,.

That is not to say I would support a racist immigration policy such as that which oppresses the palestinians to support such a state.

[I Will Deny You]

Quote: from Reuben on 7:59 am on June 21, 2002
I really do not see why Arafat has been compared to and even equated to Sharon, the butcher of Sabra and Shatila. He has mad huge compromises for the sake of peace.There are obviously huge differences between Sharon and Arafat, but they're both full of shit and they're both directly responsible for the deaths of many innocent people. I don't like either one of them. They're both butchers.

Lindsay

[deimos]

the jewish people have a right, just like any other people, for self determination. they have the right for a sovereign state in which they can govern themselves. until israel was founded, the jewish people always lived as a minority among other people. this made them an easy target for persecution and racism.

the jewish people have a right for a sovereign state(is it sovereign?isn't israel called the 51 us state?).But not in palestine or in any other settled region on this planet.And do you really think that jews would be today a target for racism and persecution?Nobody in europe gives a damn about it if you are christian, jew or atheist.

[Reuben]

Deimos, the jews do have a right to self-determination but as you said not i n aplace such as Palestine where it would have to involve uprooting as happened in 48.

Regarding, you are wrong that jews are no longer target. In britain at least, I can tell that it still exists in the form of violence as well as everything else.. It is not so much to do with religion ( s you said no-one gives a damn whether you are cirtian jewish atheist) but to do with ethnicity. Because in europe they are a universal ethnic minority and in Britain are an immigrant community, we are targetted by nationalists and fascists regardless of whether wwe ourselves are atheists or what. I myself am also an atheist but have been targetted because of my ethnicity.

Thee truth is that Europe really isnt as tolerant as people make it out to be, that is why the governments are trying to basicallly put an end to non white immigration

[deimos]

is it possible to recognize if someone is a jew?so how can they recognize it?

[DORRI]

do you remember anything like israel on the map before 1948? have you asked yourself :how was it created suddenly and were did the main inhabitants go when their unexpected zionist guests come in?
the only way is that everybody returns to his house;the palestinian to from river to sea palestine and israelis to their fore houses all over the world

[Reuben]

Regarding Deimos's wuestion yes it is possible to recognize jews predominantly from their names here in Engalnd. People think that people can only be marked out by ectremephysical differences bu that is not the case . I have been described as "jewish looking" and jews can be recognizable by other jews and may have certain features, though I doubt somebody would be able from looking at me to determine my ethnicity, alththough the same goes for many ethnic groups who have suffered extreme prejudice, andondce someone has heard my name, most people cotto on.

We ( my family) used to live in a street with a family of neo-nazis, we never discussed with them our ethnicity but due different aspects of us we were fairly distinguishable and they had no trouble cottonning on. The fact is that jews in Europe have always existed as an ethnic group rather than a religious group. In eastern europe, where my family came from the jews did not speak russian, they spoke Yiddish.

WHat I am saaying is appearance is of tlimited significance. In afgahanistan, it would e very hard to recognize somebody as a PAshtun or whatever simply by appearence, though that doesnt stop their being great racial tension.

[Reuben]

Furthermore, if you think about t three of the most significant ethnic genocides, Armenian, Jewish and Rwandan, these have all taken place against groups not marked with absolute clarity by their appearence but none the less, recognizable, and none-the less targetted for their ethnicity.


DORRI, I agree with you entirely on th Palestinian right to retur. I would happily give up the place reserved to me in Israel to one of the 5000,000 palestinian refugees not allowedi nto occupied palestine simply because they are palestinians

[creedance]

how about jursilim??
ouh and for the guy who hates arafat and sharon,plz give me a break here,there is no comp. btw a guy with couple hundreds " shohada' " boomers and fully usa usa armed army.the last one is know with his slotering for humans and his lust to blood since sabra and shatella.

[deimos]

okay, thats right you can recognize them by name.

[Zion]

There are so many things wrong in this discussion i dont know if i have the patience to sit and correct all of it but maybe ill do it at a later time.

What I wanted to ask is why everyone thinks so badly of Sharon. I think the reason lies in good palestinian propaganda. Other than that I cant see why people have such a problem with him. Yes he's right wing, yes he's a military man but thats not so terrible. Besides he's willing to work out a solution and has participated in peace talks before ( he was even instrumental in uprooting the settlement of yamit in sinai when peace was negotiated withe Egypt) Right now he has to take a tough stance against terror because his people are being existentially challenged but if that threat was gone he has expressed the willingness to talk.

The whole sabra and shatilla thing is way overblown (in terms of sharon's personal culpability) by palestinian propaganda (i.e. the name butcher). The only butchers were Christian Phalangists. Sharon was found INDIRECTLY responsible and removed from office. Indirectly responsible meant that he should have known what was going to happen and shouldnt have let the Christians into those camps. No one said he actually knew that it would happen nor was it his intent for it to happen. So calling him a butcher and bloodthirsty because of this episode is completely unwarranted. He screwed up and was duly punished but he is not culpable for lives lost.

[hizballah]

WERE THE VICTIMS OF SABRA AND SHATILA TERRORISTS TOO??!!! THE PALESTINIANS ARE FREEDOM FIGHTERS NOT TERRORISTS. IF THERE IS ANY TERRORISTS, IT IS THE WAR CRIMINAL SHARON! SHARON WAS FOUND RESPONSIBLE FOR THE MASSACRE BY KAHANA COMMITTIE(AN ISRAELI COMMITTIE), SO DON'T WASTE UR TIME IN DISCUSSING SUCH ISSUE!

[Zion]

Just a note, caps and exclamation marks dont make your argument stronger.

The victims of Sabra and Shatila whether terrorists or not (i honestly dont know) were not Sharon's victims. Sharon was found indirectly responsible this is considerably different than directly responsible.

The palestinians who want freedom are not the ones blowing themselves up and killing innocent Israelis. The fighters are fighting because of a religious/racial hatred of Jews. Dont mix the terms.

[deimos]

palestinian propaganda?thats ridicoulous.Sharojn is the terorist.He is brain damaged.he doesn't want peace.he doesn't want an own palestinian state.He is a racist.I cant understand y a someone can defend him.

[Zion]

He is definitely not brain damaged - I'm sure we can secure a doctor's note if you need one. Im not sure why you call him a terrorist - maybe if you can elaborate I can show you why you are mistaken.

Ideally, no Israeli wants a palestinian state and no palestinian wants an Israeli state. That is in the back of everyone's minds in the region. However, Israelis, Sharon included, have come to terms with the fact that there is a palestinian presence in Israel and it is a good idea for them to have political sovereignty - i.e. a state. That unfortunately is generally not true on the palestinian side. If Sharon hadn't come to terms with that he would certainly have exiled Arafat as soon as he got into office and destroyed all of the PA's facilities and taken over civil administration of the Judea, Samaria and Gaza. So, alas, you are mistaken.

[deimos]

However, Israelis, Sharon included, have come to terms with the fact that there is a palestinian presence in Israel and it is a good idea for them to have political sovereignty - i.e. a state.
but sharon thinks that jordania is the palestinians land.


He is definitely not brain damaged

i didn't mean that he's disabled or something.But 1927 when sharon was young, his mother hid him in the walls of their farm because they were afraid from an assualt by kalkilian palestinians.I think he has a trauma.


Ideally, no Israeli wants a palestinian state and no palestinian wants an Israeli state.

but the difference is that the palestinians have a right on palestine and the israelis not.(sure, the jewish have a right on their state)