I can't wait until the next depression!

[Linux_Rocks]

Then the capitalist pigs will crawl to us, and we will once again have our revolution!!! We wont let weak willed leaders like Gorbachev, or corrupt leaders like the Comare Rouge from Cambodia get in to power!!!

[NovelGentry]

Then the capitalist pigs will crawl

They will do no such thing. If anything can be shown from history is that the huge majority of reactionary American workers will crawl to them, looking for jobs...

[BOZG]

I would have thought that someone who quotes Lenin would understand that just because depressions appear, it does not mean that a revolution will occur. There are subjective conditions to take into account.

Booms and slumps occur in capitalism and have occured for a great deal of time yet we still have not seen communist revolution in the Western World. Do not be so naïve as to believe that there is not a lot of work for both revolutionaries and the working class to achieve.

Optimism about depressions can very easily backfire. Capitalism has shown an ability to dig itself out of depressions and has shown an ability to survive. This does not mean that it can survive anything but that we have to be more conscious of its abilities rather than sitting back and assuming that it will collapse come the next depression.

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

A depression will likely be an indicator of the material conditions suitable for revolution, but it will not be the cause.

[BOZG]

I disagree. The material conditions suitable for revolution, have existed for quite a long period of time, the subjective factors are what we're in need of.

[redstar2000]

I think it's very wrong to say: depression = revolution.

Capitalist depressions sharpen class struggle and radicalize public opinion in both left and right directions.

People will be much more likely to listen to us...and the fascists.

It would be foolish over-confidence to think that we will "automatically win" simply because the stock-market crashed.

We still have to have a viable and attractive communist alternative to offer people...something that makes sense to them.

We don't have that now -- except perhaps in a limited and crude outline. We don't have even a small revolutionary movement that offers genuinely useful ideas to the working class...that demonstrates by its practice what it means to resist capitalism in both a serious and ultra-democratic way.

If we were to create something like that over the next decade...then when capitalism got itself into serious difficulties, people would see a visible alternative and, I think, choose it over the despotic alternatives.

But it remains to be seen if we can do that...or if things must wait until some time in the distant future.

:redstar2000:

The Redstar2000 Papers (http://www.redstar2000papers.fightcapitalism.net)
A site about communist ideas

[CaptinAnarchy124]

Originally posted by [email protected] 7 2004, 11:15 PM
I think it's very wrong to say: depression = revolution.

Capitalist depressions sharpen class struggle and radicalize public opinion in both left and right directions.

People will be much more likely to listen to us...and the fascists.

It would be foolish over-confidence to think that we will "automatically win" simply because the stock-market crashed.

We still have to have a viable and attractive communist alternative to offer people...something that makes sense to them.

We don't have that now -- except perhaps in a limited and crude outline. We don't have even a small revolutionary movement that offers genuinely useful ideas to the working class...that demonstrates by its practice what it means to resist capitalism in both a serious and ultra-democratic way.

If we were to create something like that over the next decade...then when capitalism got itself into serious difficulties, people would see a visible alternative and, I think, choose it over the despotic alternatives.

But it remains to be seen if we can do that...or if things must wait until some time in the distant future.

:redstar2000:

The Redstar2000 Papers (http://www.redstar2000papers.fightcapitalism.net)
A site about communist ideas
Well during the first depression, membership of the IWW hit over 1 million, Debs was pulling 5-6%, and there was massive union struggles nation-wide. But these were in place before the depression, the depression just gave them a reason to join. We cannot look solely for a depression, although that COULD help (not certain, in Germany during depression, Hitler took over, so we just have to have our grassroots in place before any thing of a depression hits).

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

Originally posted by [email protected] 7 2004, 05:48 PM
I disagree. The material conditions suitable for revolution, have existed for quite a long period of time, the subjective factors are what we're in need of.
What exactly do you mean by "subjective factors"?

Are you saying that since the industrial revolution, the material conditions have been present for workers' revolution, and it has happened where the "subjective factors" existed? This makes sense...
Would you say that widespread poverty and an "economic depression" are subjective factors?

When you say that the material conditions have existed for a long time, do you neglect Marx's prediction that only the most advanced capitalist nations will experience those conditions?

[Sabocat]

There are a few problems with thinking that a depression will automatically bring revolution.

1. Here in the U.S. the stock market now "shuts" down after a certain percentage drop in the market to prevent panic selling and a possible "crash".

2. If there was a catastrophic market collapse, you can be sure that the capitalists would allow a few "concessions" in the form of reforms in order to preserve the status quo.

3. In the event of a crash, I think you could be assured that the U.S. would start another war somewhere, to bolster patriotic nationalism as well as creating a false upturn to the economy with the ensuing military buildup and or economic conscription (possibly a real draft).

At any rate, I'm sure they have contingency plans.

Like redstar said, our only hope is to make sure that the masses are educated with regards to an alternative.

[BOZG]

Victor,

By subjective factors, I meant the consciousness of the working class and the role/existance of the revolutionary party. I wasn't very clear about it. I'm never a man of words when I need them. Trotsky wrote a pamphlet called Perspectives Of World Development (http://www.marxists.org/archive/trotsky/works/1924/1924-world.htm) in 1924 and there's a section at the start called "One again on the preconditions for the Proleterian Revolution" which makes my point (well his point that I accept) much clearer.

[NovelGentry]

By subjective factors, I meant the consciousness of the working class and the role/existance of the revolutionary party

Indeed the material conditions are a pretense for that consciousness, but I find it more difficult to say that the material conditions exist and HAVE existed when it still seems so difficult to achieve that consciousness for many.

We have gone to great lengths to understand these material conditions, and hence have a relatively higher consciousness, not necessarily because these material conditons already exist, but we are aware that they will exist and that this is the driving force of revolutionary necessity.

Admittedly, I have not read the work by Trotsky which you have pointed to yet.

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

By subjective factors, I meant the consciousness of the working class and the role/existance of the revolutionary party.

Isn't that subject to the material conditions?

[RAT]

I do not think that a revolution will start in the US. There are already a few revolution on the way (Venezuela, and most of latin america), the same can be said in the Palestinian camp, or now in Iraq. Freedom fighters are combatting imperialists pigs. This will not happen here. One loves the confort of capitalism, the illussion of property rights (credit).

I remember being in a college course with a teacher that knew nothing about the subject she was teaching. I wrote a complaint, and most if not all the students of the class agreed with me. Nothing was done. The next class I took a stand, the teacher asked me to leave the room. I turn to all the other student and told them to leave with me. No one move. So I refused to leave, security, cops showed up. I alone got fucked. Americans have no balls anymore. It is not the same mentality as in the 60's.

And now with the "terrorist fear" whatever you say against this fucked up system, you are view as a terrorist yourself. I had the "honor" of their Fucking Bs Interrogation (FBI).

"The land of the free, who told you that is your enemy." Rage Against the Machine

[Vallegrande]

I remember being in a college course with a teacher that knew nothing about the subject she was teaching.

What was she teaching that she was so incompetent at? I'm glad someone was smart enough to take a stand. Many others are mindless and just want to make the grade eh?

[BOZG]

Originally posted by [email protected] 9 2004, 01:36 AM
Isn't that subject to the material conditions?
Yes, it does depend on material conditions but that doesn't mean they develop evenly. The phrase "consciousness lags behind being" comes to mind.

[NovelGentry]

Yes, it does depend on material conditions but that doesn't mean they develop evenly. The phrase "consciousness lags behind being" comes to mind.

Indeed a very good response, but this tells me nothing more than we have to step up our plan to help people attain this consciousness. Too many "sects" see this as selling people communism, which I feel is completely wrong.

[Zingu]

If you have ever dabbled into economics, I discovered this while looking over some books on economics in my school library. It turns out in the capitalist economy, the economy will go into chronic economic booms and recessions (See Marx's theory of overproduction) but this graph, despite that these waves keep going up and down, the line, overall, keeps gradually climbing upwards!

Then there is the question; it can't keep going up forever can it?

"Can Capitalism survive" going on this way?


There was a book titled this as well on the self, but the book was so damaged from water that I didn't bother trying to read it.

[NovelGentry]

Then there is the question; it can't keep going up forever can it?

There are three ways to deal with this "overproduction" -- expand markets (imperialism), destroy productive forces, and to more "thorougly exploit old markets."

All of which lead to dead ends once the world market is saturated by capitalism. You can only exploit the old markets so far, and destrlying productive forces on a world wide scale would lead to that constant depression on a world wide scale... of course this is all built on the fact that you've laready expanded your market and saturated the world market.

[Djehuti]

"I can't wait until the next depression!"

No please! Why should we want a depression?!
I totally agree with the Italian operaists in this;
there is a greater potential for a communist revolution when capitalism is going "forward", so to speak.

And by the way, the depressions are a result of class struggle, not the mother of it.


"Then there is the question; it can't keep going up forever can it?"

I believe it can. Well, of cource not forever, nothing last forever.
But as long as class struggle exist, capitalism can continue. It iss the struggles of the working class that is the engine of capitalism; class struggle gives capitalism life, but it will also ultimatly bring it death.

[LoneVoiceInTheDark]

Yes, but Extremist and Revolutionary parties look way more attractive when people are starving and looking for a job.